Quotas and admissions to college programs

[The Captain]

I didn't know how to title this so if someone has a better suggestion, please speak up.

Had a coversation with someone a few days ago.  They have a son who was accepted into a university with a very well known pharmacy program.

Apparently, there are two ways in the US to become a licensed pharamicst.

1.  Get a four year BS degree in a pre-parmacy program + Get a four year Doctorate of Pharmacy degree= 8 years total, or

2.  Get admitted to a college that has a special pharmacy college and go for two years then apply for admission to a four year program that will qualify you for a Doctorate of Pharmacy = 6 years total.

The kid was accepted to a school with option #2 but did not do well enough to be granted admission to the Doctorate program. 

The school apparently only accepts the top 25% to the program, which the parent was quite upset about and thinks it's all just a money grab.  If you are only going to accept X number of students, why allow X*'4 to apply for the program?  I asked if the statistics had changed much from when they applied to the school as a freshman.

No the statistics were the same, they were just convinced their kid would make the cutoff, and when they didn't, then decide the system is unfair.

Now the son will have to transfer to a four year program but will likely be able to graduate in three.  Then they will need to apply to, and get accepted to the four year Doctorate program at a different school.

I'm not sure I see anyone being taken advantage of here.  At least where I've been it's pretty common for there to be a certain washout rate, but I don't know if 75% is too high or not.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

[Deleted]

It happens with lots of majors where you have to apply to a specific school at your university.

[Opti]

If you have limited classroom slots would they prefer they make a lottery
for addmission instead so he didn't get chosen based on the lottery?
Its normal to pick a cutoff point.



You could always nod your head and come up with a funny quip.
"That's too bad, maybe they could choose from the bottom 25%
of applicants and see if they can get their school ranking to drop. "

[Sum Dum Gai]

The other option is to make pharmacy degrees easier to get by opening the enrollment and creating more schools, which floods the market with pharmacists and drives down their wages. Look at journalism degrees to see how that works out.

Interesting fact, there are more people awarded new journalism degrees in the US every year than there are paid journalist positions. If every single one was fired next summer and replaced with a new grad, there would still be unemployed 2014 journalism grads. Crazy.

[The Captain]

I think a lot of times it's hard for people who are the top performers in their HS to recognize they may not necessarily be the top performer in college.

I don't know if he was tracking things or if the school was putting out ranks.  I do think that since the kid essentially breezed through HS they didn't think this would be a problem. 

I've got another friend who had a daughter in a pre-med program.  This one I'm even more worried about since she didn't even make the honor roll in HS.

It's one thing to believe in your kid, it's another to have what are IMHO unrealistic expectations.

I had DD later in life then most of my friends so it's hard to watch this and wonder where we will be with DD in 7 or 8 years.

[Deleted]

Dec 27, 2013 13:34:00 GMT -5 The Captain said:

I think a lot of times it's hard for people who are the top performers in their HS to recognize they may not necessarily be the top performer in college.

I don't know if he was tracking things or if the school was putting out ranks.  I do think that since the kid essentially breezed through HS they didn't think this would be a problem. 

I've got another friend who had a daughter in a pre-med program.  This one I'm even more worried about since she didn't even make the honor roll in HS.

It's one thing to believe in your kid, it's another to have what are IMHO unrealistic expectations.

I had DD later in life then most of my friends so it's hard to watch this and wonder where we will be with DD in 7 or 8 years.

Hard to say.  My family was all late bloomers.  Many did not do well in high school but went on to do very well in college.   Honestly, I think there are more of the type you mentioned first (did well in high school) that struggle in college.  They just think college is an extension of what they've already been doing and if they never had to study they might not think they have to and be surprised.

[The Captain]

MP - I really do hope that's the case.

[Deleted]

FWIW, I pretty much failed half my high school classes and dropped out my junior year.  Finished at an alternative school a while later.  I just didn't care.  It didn't interest me or challenge me and I just wanted to get out in the world. 

I graduated with honors from college with a double major in Biology and Psychology.  Of course, here I am a quality tech making peanuts, but still.  I did well in college.  LOL 

[tractor]

I happen to live in a town with one of those Pharmacy programs on campus. There are many fields where this is the case. The way I see it he has two options, figure out another career, or spend a year retaking those classes he did poorly in to raise his standing in the candidate pool. That's what most of the pharmacy students do around here.

As with most majors, just because you enroll, doesn't mean you will make it to the next level. I have a friend who just made it into the Pharmacy school. She busted her ass, and now has to work harder than ever to stay in, if you start to fall behind, you will be replaced.

[alabamagal]

Well I know pharmacy is one of those growing fields, well paid, always be jobs, etc.....

But every time I go to the drug store, the pharmacist is standing at a computer (don't even let them sit down), or talking on the phone to a doctor.  Plus they have to work the pharmacy hours (late nights, weekends, some even 24 hours).  It looks like they have almost zero interactions with people unless someone has a question.  Quite different from the "neighborhood pharmacist" everyone seems to be nostalgic about.  Maybe there are better jobs other than retail pharmacy, but that gets you even farther from talking to people.

Doesn't seem like a satisfying job to me.

[Deleted]

Pharmacy is getting to be a flooded field.  For a while there when all the grocery stores and Big box places were sprouting up each with their own pharmacy there were a tons of opportunities for new graduates, but that's not the case so much anymore.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

What the pharmacy program is doing makes perfect sense. My undergrad curriculum was essentially pre-med (which is not much different from pharmacy....since we did have people transfer out of it to the pharmacy program downstate) , and I imagine by the end of the second year, at least 50% flunked out of the program or moved onto other degrees. Why would ANY program accept someone into a doctorate degreed program where there is no way of determining how they are going to do on entrance as an undergraduate?

[DVM gone riding]

THey offer this option at some vet schools too but yes I would say those numbers are standard, plus probably half are going to decide they don't want it. He should have the option of finishing out a degree at his university and reapplying after 4 years. My vet school gave early admit to a certain number and then some came on as third year applications the rest had to apply with normal people from other schools. So say an admitted to vet school class had 100 students and 10 spots where early admit students (chosen for round numbers) my year two of those early admit students dropped out of vet school and they considered scrapping the whole early admit program.

[Deleted]

Pharmacist seems like one of those jobs that could be mostly automated over time.  For the questions that people really need answered by a live person, they could install two way video booths in Walgreens and the remaining pharmacists can sit at home and answer.

[Deleted]

Dec 27, 2013 14:51:26 GMT -5 alabamagal said:

Well I know pharmacy is one of those growing fields, well paid, always be jobs, etc.....

But every time I go to the drug store, the pharmacist is standing at a computer (don't even let them sit down), or talking on the phone to a doctor.  Plus they have to work the pharmacy hours (late nights, weekends, some even 24 hours).  It looks like they have almost zero interactions with people unless someone has a question.  Quite different from the "neighborhood pharmacist" everyone seems to be nostalgic about.  Maybe there are better jobs other than retail pharmacy, but that gets you even farther from talking to people.

Doesn't seem like a satisfying job to me.

My daughter loves being a retail pharmacist.  She says you get the money and respect that a medical professional does without the hassles.  It has allowed her to be a SAHP most of the time (she works part-time). 

ETA:  Admission to the PharmD program after two years is probably not just limited to that university's students.  My daughter did two years of pre-pharmacy at the local university in our town.  She then was accepted to the university with the PharmD program.  So she did the six-year thing.  Good students from outside the program probably make it more likely 20% of the PharmD university's own students getting the "early admission."