Mom of 13yo on vent fights for 2nd opinion- hate on display

[Opti]

I have a feeling this will end badly for them especially if they choose
to go to court. While they obviously have some supporters I think
as time goes on it looks more like a money grab and less about someone
who really thought a miracle was possible.

[justme]

media.nbcbayarea.com/documents/HeidiFlori.pdf

That's a link to one of the things filed with the court in case they didn't remove her and wanted to fight to keep her on a ventilator in the hospital. It seems the body is already showing several signs of decomposition. Probably not a read for the faint of heart, haven't gotten through the whole document (and might not) so I'm not sure if there's other info in there.

ETA: I thought it was going to get worse, it's not that horrible of a read.

[zibazinski]

[Tennesseer]

Jan 6, 2014 17:43:37 GMT -5 justme said:

media.nbcbayarea.com/documents/HeidiFlori.pdf

That's a link to one of the things filed with the court in case they didn't remove her and wanted to fight to keep her on a ventilator in the hospital. It seems the body is already showing several signs of decomposition. Probably not a read for the faint of heart, haven't gotten through the whole document (and might not) so I'm not sure if there's other info in there.

That is pretty straight forward. Her internals are decomposing, just at a slower rate than someone left in a field to die and decompose.

Who knows what others are telling this family in support of keeping the child 'alive'.  The child is falling apart from the inside out.

[Deleted]

It wasn't that bad of a read for me, quite clinical but disturbing.

[justme]

Yeah, I thought it was going to get worse than it did as I was reading it.

[Opti]

Not that bad JustZombies. I'm surprised it isn't worse.

[justme]

Jan 6, 2014 17:59:12 GMT -5 Opti said:

Not that bad JustZombies. I'm surprised it isn't worse.

I swear I changed my name back to the original once the game stopped and my profile says the original justme, but every time I'm quoted or tagged it still says justzombies.

[Opti]

You need to correct and save your display name.

[lynnerself]

This from her uncle
"Sealey said his niece looks peaceful, like she’s sleeping, and he believes he saw her smile as she was leaving Children’s Hospital Oakland."

www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-jahi-mcmath-transfer-brain-dead-20140106,0,5200263.story#ixzz2pfJ08jRQ

And this from her lawyer:
Jahi's body had "deteriorated so badly" that her chances for survival seemed bleak, said the family's attorney Christopher Dolan. The family had been demanding that doctors at Children's Hospital surgically insert a feeding tube for the girl, who did not receive nutrition for more than three weeks after she was declared brain dead.

"Right now," Dolan added, "we don't know if she's going to make it."

www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_24853879/jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-girl-moved-undisclosed-care

[mmhmm]

Jan 6, 2014 17:43:37 GMT -5 justme said:

media.nbcbayarea.com/documents/HeidiFlori.pdf

That's a link to one of the things filed with the court in case they didn't remove her and wanted to fight to keep her on a ventilator in the hospital. It seems the body is already showing several signs of decomposition. Probably not a read for the faint of heart, haven't gotten through the whole document (and might not) so I'm not sure if there's other info in there.

ETA: I thought it was going to get worse, it's not that horrible of a read.

Thanks for posting the link, justme.  It confirms what most medical people would expect to see under these conditions (and are very, very thankful we have never seen).

[mmhmm]

Jan 6, 2014 18:50:26 GMT -5 lynnerself said:

This from her uncle
"Sealey said his niece looks peaceful, like she’s sleeping, and he believes he saw her smile as she was leaving Children’s Hospital Oakland."

www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-jahi-mcmath-transfer-brain-dead-20140106,0,5200263.story#ixzz2pfJ08jRQ

And this from her lawyer:
Jahi's body had "deteriorated so badly" that her chances for survival seemed bleak, said the family's attorney Christopher Dolan. The family had been demanding that doctors at Children's Hospital surgically insert a feeding tube for the girl, who did not receive nutrition for more than three weeks after she was declared brain dead.

"Right now," Dolan added, "we don't know if she's going to make it."

www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_24853879/jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-girl-moved-undisclosed-care

Oh, for Pete's sake, Dolan!!  The girl's been dead for weeks!  Dead - as in not alive!  Of course she isn't "going to make it"!  

[lynnerself]

I think he's trying to sue the hospital for killing her twice, once for brain death and once again for cardiac death.

[Sum Dum Gai]

Don't know if she's going to make it... it's like a bad reference to the black knight from Monty Python.  She's dead.  Nobody makes it after they're already dead genius.

[Tennesseer]

I don't believe any malpractice jury or judge would ever rule in the family's favor. They have ruined any bit of evidence.

[Deleted]

Can someone tell me why she was on equipment when her brain was no longer working, or did they find out about the brain after they put her on the equipment, what was the equipment supposed to do.

[Rocky Mtn Saver]

Jan 6, 2014 19:11:45 GMT -5 nutty said:

Can someone tell me why she was on equipment when her brain was no longer working, or did they find out about the brain after they put her on the equipment, what was the equipment supposed to do.

www.mercurynews.com/nation-world/ci_24852090/jahi-mcmath-timeline-events-case-brain-dead-oakland

-- Dec. 9, 2013: Jahi undergoes tonsil surgery and two other procedures to remove throat and nasal tissue to treat sleep apnea at Children's Hospital Oakland. She reportedly awakes from surgery but later suffers complications, goes into cardiac arrest and is placed on a ventilator.

-- Dec. 11: Doctors declare Jahi legally brain dead. Jahi's family asks the hospital to keep her on a ventilator, believing she will recover.

-- Dec. 16: Jahi's family asks doctors to perform an additional test on her brain's electrical activity to see if she has any chance of recovery.

[mmhmm]

Jan 6, 2014 19:11:45 GMT -5 nutty said:

Can someone tell me why she was on equipment when her brain was no longer working, or did they find out about the brain after they put her on the equipment, what was the equipment supposed to do.

The scenario probably went like this:

The child went into cardiac arrest.  A "Code Blue" was conducted, and cardiac function regained.  The child was intubated as part of the "Code Blue".  That's standard procedure in cases like this.  Once the ventilator was in place, the family wouldn't allow it to be removed even when the child's brain swelled to the point of brain death.

[achelois]

They found out about the brain later, after she was intubated during the resuscitation process for the cardiac arrest. The ventilator breathes for her. Other equipment such as IVs provide fluids and medications to try to keep her blood pressure up.

[Deleted]

THANKS MMHMM, exactly what I wanted to know. So she had a heart attack, in laymens terms? A code blue would be resucitation? What would be the cause of the brain stopping, can that be a result of a heart attack? So ventilation is "a breathing tube", why would that be used for a heart attack. Seems  like I have a lot of googling to do because I am not understanding these terms and what the basis of using the equipment is for.. Like why does a heart attack patient need ventilation, I am really serious, do you stop breathing at some point ( well I know you do because you can die) but at what point, does the heart or brain stem control breathing.

[mmhmm]

Jan 6, 2014 19:23:58 GMT -5 nutty said:

THANKS MMHMM, exactly what I wanted to know. So she had a heart attack, in laymens terms? A code blue would be resucitation? What would be the cause of the brain stopping, can that be a result of a heart attack? So ventilation is "a breathing tube", why would that be used for a heart attack. Seems  like I have a lot of googling to do because I am not understanding these terms and what the basis of using the equipment is for.. Like why does a heart attack patient need ventilation, I am really serious, do you stop breathing at some point ( well I know you do because you can die) but at what point, does the heart or brain stem control breathing.

Yes.  For an unknown reason (at this point, and probably never to be known - possibly blood loss, but we don't know), the girl's heart stopped.  That's cardiac arrest.  When that happens, a "Code Blue" is called and a team resuscitates the patient, if possible.  If a heartbeat is obtained through this process, the individual is intubated and mechanically ventilated.  The reason for brain death is swelling.  It can occur for a number of reasons.  The brain, enclosed by the skull, doesn't have a lot of room to swell.  If it swells enough, blood flow is cut off and the brain dies.  In this case, we may never know what happened because the body is already in a state of deterioration making determination of the cause of death pretty close to impossible.

There's a difference between a heart attack and cardiac arrest.  In a heart attack, the heart doesn't necessarily stop beating, but it usually does incur injury.  In cardiac arrest, the heart stops beating entirely (or beats in a way that is incompatible with life).  If the heart stops beating, blood isn't circulated to organs and tissue; therefore, isn't circulated to the lungs for gas exchange.  Tissues and organs are not getting oxygen.  If you can get a heartbeat back, the ventilator will provide the assist the lungs need to oxygenate organs and tissues.

The heart has it's own electrical system.  It can generate it's own heartbeat.  It doesn't need the brain in order to beat.

[achelois]

She had a cardiac arrest, meaning that her heart stopped beating. It can happen as a result of a heart attack, but also for other reasons. A heart attack means damage to the muscle of the heart itself. One can have a heart attack without cardiac arrest or need for a breathing tube. In fact, most people who have heart attacks don't go that far.

Brain damage would occur if the heart stops because the blood circulation stops and no oxygen gets to the brain.

A breathing tube is put into the throat to have a way to get oxygen into the lungs. CPR circulates it similar to the heart pumping.

In this case, they were able to get the heart restarted. Unfortunately, not the brain. The brain stem always controls breathing. The heart has nothing to do with breathing except insofar as providing the oxygen supply via the circulation. The ventilator moves air into the lungs and allows it to come out and then inflates with new air, etc if there is no brain activity, ie, brain death, there will be no breathing and the ventilator must breathe for her. 

The heart muscle, on the other hand, has an intrinsic beat of its own and will beat even in the absence of brain activity, so long as it receives oxygen and nutrients , for a long time.

[Deleted]

Ok bare with me MMM and Achelois, so with cardiac arrest the heart stops beating and therefore blood is not circulated to organs and tissue (would this include the brain) and also to the lungs so the ventilator isused for what exactly ?? if they get the heart beating wouldn't all functions work again...BTW thanks for taking the time to answer these for me, I really want to know. The ventilation is to replace what DIDN'T occur while the heart was stopped, why exactly is ventilation the protocol?

[mmhmm]

Jan 6, 2014 20:03:51 GMT -5 nutty said:

Ok bare with me MMM and Achelois, so with cardiac arrest the heart stops beating and therefore blood is not circulated to organs and tissue (would this include the brain) and also to the lungs so the ventilator isused for what exactly ?? if they get the heart beating wouldn't all functions work again...BTW thanks for taking the time to answer these for me, I really want to know. The ventilation is to replace what DIDN'T occur while the heart was stopped, why exactly is ventilation the protocol?

Yes, nutty, the brain would be deprived of blood, as well.  All organs would.  The ventilator is used to simulate lung action and get oxygen into the lungs for gas exchange.  Without oxygen, the organs and tissue will die.  Interestingly, the heart supplies itself with oxygen first, then the rest of the body gets a chance at it.

No problem.  Glad to answer and glad you're interested.

[achelois]

Me too, mmhmm, I would love to know the cause for the bleed, but I doubt we ever will.

[justme]

Jan 6, 2014 18:05:47 GMT -5 Opti said:

You need to correct and save your display name.

I have. Twice! When I go to change it it says justme, so I can't figure out what else to do.

[billisonboard]

Jan 6, 2014 20:09:37 GMT -5 justme said:

Jan 6, 2014 18:05:47 GMT -5 Opti said:

You need to correct and save your display name.

I have. Twice! When I go to change it it says justme, so I can't figure out what else to do.

Why, o, why does this have to be on this particular thread. There are some obvious jokes that would just be in poor taste here.

[mmhmm]

Jan 6, 2014 20:09:21 GMT -5 achelois said:

Me too, mmhmm, I would love to know the cause for the bleed, but I doubt we ever will.

I don't know that we can know now, achelois.  There wasn't even any brain stem activity.  That brain is turning to mush as we speak, with the rest of the organs deteriorating as well. I'd put chances of determining what happened at pretty darned close to nil.  It really is a shame.

[Deleted]

but if a heart beat was established through resucitation why the ventilator after that? I love A and P except I didn't finish it.

[Malarky]

Jan 6, 2014 20:09:37 GMT -5 justme said:

Jan 6, 2014 18:05:47 GMT -5 Opti said:

You need to correct and save your display name.

I have. Twice! When I go to change it it says justme, so I can't figure out what else to do.

Scroll down to the bottom and hit "save changes"