Mom of 13yo on vent fights for 2nd opinion- hate on display

[mmhmm]

Jan 3, 2014 17:14:13 GMT -5 lynnerself said:

Many cadavers are donated (in a will like organ donation).

What happens if her heart stops during transport? Are they going to do CPR on a dead body?

There is still another mediation meeting going on this afternoon with another judge.

If her heart stops, they can do CPR for hours on end.  The poor child is dead so, thankfully, there would be no lasting damage, and she's beyond whatever monstrous thing that can be perpetrated on her body.

[zibazinski]

Ewww.  I'm sure these parents think they're being loving but OMG. 

[justme]

Plus, if for some reason she goes into cardiac arrest again while they're doing this surgery (side note: do they still give the dead body anesthesia? Take her to a sterile operating room others could be in need of? Tie up surgeons who are needed for living patients?) all hell will probably break lose from the mother saying the purposefully killed her daughter just like they wanted to.

No way would I be willing to touch that with a 100ft pole!

[zibazinski]

I actually had a nightmare about this stuff happening to me last night or rather 5:30am this morning. I remember those awful pictures and that poor wreck of a young woman being bandied all over the news by her "loving family."

[DVM gone riding]

Jan 3, 2014 17:03:16 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Jan 3, 2014 16:33:45 GMT -5 DVM gone riding said:

I find it really odd that they keep saying it isn't "ethical" to perform surgery on a dead person. In reality they do it all the time. Where do you think new MD's and med student's practice I sure as heck won't the first time someone tries something new fangled to be on a deceased person and not me! I think it is to bad more cadavers aren't donated for medical procedures. I don't get this family. I am a Christian too. They should let their dead daughter go to peace in heaven rather than tormenting her shell of a body.

I think new docs and docs-to-be practicing on cadavers is quite different than performing a surgery that is expected to actually accomplish anything other than to give the person performing the surgery some practice.  In the latter case, nothing is expected to really be accomplished.  In the former case, that of a living person, some benefit is expected.  It's a narrow line, to be sure, but I can see where the hospital is coming from and I definitely agree with their stance.  By putting in a feeding tube and performing a tracheostomy, the doctor will be contributing further to the irrational hope to which these parents are clinging.  That's just wrong, as I see it.

Completely agree, I object to their terminology of the "ethics" either it is OK to perform procedures on dead bodies or it isn't and since it is common and beneficial to society it is generally considered "ethical" what the hospital is considering un-ethical is performing a procedure with the family expecting a positive outcome. Of course I don't know what the hospital/lawyer actually said and what the news changed it to. Its not the term I would use or the way I would use it.

[DVM gone riding]

Jan 3, 2014 17:15:43 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Jan 3, 2014 17:08:04 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Wouldn't the doctor have to find a hospital or clinic that'd allow them to do this?

I would certainly think so, zib.  However, this is a really unique case.  I've certainly never dealt with anything like this.  Were the person living, one would need a properly equipped operating room; however, this isn't a living person.  It's just really, really weird to think about all the different aspects and complications when dealing with this mess.

Since she has been declared dead I wonder if a doctor could do the procedure in-clinic with the family signing off on the fact that he considers it a cadaver procedure and no anesthetic is being given (that would be EXTREMELY unethical under normal circumstances but the coronor has signed off on her being dead) I think it is just a matter of time till her heart stops despite the "life support" hopefully at that point her mother will be able to accept the fact that she is dead.

Just so the non-medical people know there is no way this poor girl is neurologically aware of anything that is happening to her body. In normal surgery even though the patient is anesthetized it is still very clear that neuro impulses are being sent and certain things trigger a "pain" response and you see corresponding changes in the body--such as a faster heart rate. She wouldn't need anesthesia because there are no active brain pathways to anesthitize

[mmhmm]

The heart will stop eventually, despite the mechanical support.  It's a matter of time, but that's a young, strong heart.  The transfer, however, might put enough stress on the mechanical side of things to "do the deed", so to speak.  I really have no clue, though.  This is waaaay outside my experience!  We'd hold bodies on mechanical support awaiting a harvesting team, but that's about it.  Never for more than 24 hours, that I recall.


With this family so steeped in denial, I'm afraid they'd insist on anesthesia.  I wouldn't want to be the doctor involved, or even on the team.  No way!

[DVM gone riding]

on her already weakened heart anesthesia would probably stop it. So maybe it would be a good thing? A blessing in disguise.

[EVT1]

Wow, this is going downhill fast.

[Opti]

Thanks for the blog post. I didn't realize it was a given the brain stem was
gone as well. I saw some comments to an article that makes me wonder
if they are true. One comment said the Mom encouraged the teen to have
surgery even though she didn't want to and Mom may be suffering from
major guilt. Another comment said Mom mentioned she fed her a hamburger
after surgery in one of the early press briefings but I haven't seen that either.
If the latter is true, that probably started the bleeding and unfortunately led
to the child's death.


Its icky to me, they are doing this to her body. I believe her soul has been
free of the body for weeks but it can't be pleasant to watch her family do
this if she is aware of it as a soul.

[lynnerself]

The mothers most recent statement.

www.sfgate.com/health/article/Hospital-agrees-to-let-Jahi-McMath-family-take-5111584.php

"She's definitely showing me improvements. If I felt that my child was suffering in any type of way, I would not keep her on that machine. I love her that much, that I would let her go. But since I've seen improvements every day, I will fight for Jahi every day. And so until my heart stops or her heart stops, I will always fight for Jahi until she is ready to go, her own self. I can't play God. She's going to get better or she's not, but I see her getting better."

This level of denial is very sad and somewhat disturbing.

I also found this interesting.

After spending weeks in a very public and tense fight with the hospital, Jahi's family does not plan to disclose any more about their plans for her continued care until she is resettled, her uncle, Omari Sealey, told reporters.

abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/jahi-mcmaths-mom-clear-hospital-21417801

So

1. They still don't have a place or

2. They have some less than reputable place lined up that doesn't want to be scrutinized or

3. Maybe a legitimate care facility wants to remain anonymous and not face all this publicity.

I'm still curious how this will end.

[mmhmm]

The little girl's body has been released from the hospital to the coroner's office, and from the coroner's office to her mother.  The location to which she's being transferred hasn't been identified.

Jahi McMath

[thyme4change]

I'll be interested to see what happens next.  I have been wondering if this family got a little addicted to the media attention, but now to move the body to an undisclosed location - they will have to fade out.  When her heart does stop and the family begins to accept the situation, I will be interested to see if it is a footnote, or if they make a big ta-do about it.  

[lynnerself]

I also wonder how any lawsuit against the hospital is going to proceed.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Jan 6, 2014 9:39:01 GMT -5 lynnerself said:

I also wonder how any lawsuit against the hospital is going to proceed.

From what I understand, the longer the child was on the ventilator, the harder it was going to be for any pathologist to determine if there was an error made during surgery, thus more difficult to assign fault.

[Opti]

I think they are going to have a hard time proving anything and getting
money via a lawsuit. Also if she did indeed feed her daughter solid
food after the surgery evidence of that would be long gone as well.


I do wonder what will happen. Will the mother ever face her guilt and
the reality her daughter has passed? Having seen a picture of her husband
I almost think she wanted Jahi to get the surgery instead of lose weight
because she may be one of those 'food is love' people.

[justme]

Also if she did indeed feed her daughter solid
food after the surgery evidence of that would be long gone as well.

Evidence, but witnesses no. From what I've read, in the PICU there's one nurse for every patient so a nurse probably was there the entire time to see it. Also, you have the mother's own statements of her daughter talking and laughing after the surgery - which from what many people have said is against post-op instructions for this type of surgery, they want you quiet so the movement of talking/laughing doesn't cause a bleed.

[justme]

Jan 6, 2014 9:11:39 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

The little girl's body has been released from the hospital to the coroner's office, and from the coroner's office to her mother.  The location to which she's being transferred hasn't been identified.

Jahi McMath

 I just don't know what to say to the lawyer's comment from that article...

“If it is unethical to give someone hope, then what are we going to do? Shut down the churches, the schools?”

In response to why the family should be allowed to keep a deceased person on a ventilator.

[lynnerself]

Ironically, this case may not have turned out to be what the lawyer wanted.

I read somewhere that he is a malpractice attorney who opposes the California cap on wrongful death settlements. ($250,000 for a child).
I bet this looked like a really high profile/ high publicity case to challenge the law and try to get changes through the California legislature

But it turned into a very different story.

[achelois]

I could be wrong, but based on my own experiences with families in ICU and surgery and listening to the family in videos/media sites, I am guessing this family would have been a nightmare to deal with from the outset.

I do sympathize that her daughter is dead. I know it must be incredibly painful.

[justme]

He says she was in "bad shape" because of poor nutrition during her hospital stay.

link

Yes, she's in bad shape because they didn't feed her, not that her body is decomposing because she's been dead for over 3 weeks.  Apparently the new place is putting her on antibiotics.

[Deleted]

I won't claim to know this, would the body be decomposing ? Really ? That is horrible.

[Tennesseer]

Jan 6, 2014 15:20:52 GMT -5 justme said:

He says she was in "bad shape" because of poor nutrition during her hospital stay.

link

Yes, she's in bad shape because they didn't feed her, not that her body is decomposing because she's been dead for over 3 weeks.  Apparently the new place is putting her on antibiotics.

B-12 shots might bring her up to snuff too.

[justme]

Jan 6, 2014 15:27:26 GMT -5 nutty said:

I won't claim to know this, would the body be decomposing ? Really ? That is horrible.

Yes, at the very least the brain is decomposing. The rest of the organs take longer because they are getting some oxygen, but lack of eating and brain signals will eventually do them in as well - from what I've heard (not a health professional).

[Sum Dum Gai]

So, if she's certified as dead, I mean legally, death certificate and all, are there any laws about tampering with corpses that would keep other institutions from taking her in and performing the surgeries she'll need to be put on feeding tubes and whatnot.  Legally she's already a corpse.  Aren't there laws about how those have to be handled and disposed?

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

the non-perfused brain begins to soften and liquefy, coagulating into a congealed mass of dead tissue, enzymes, and other products of cell death




Unfortunately I bet there is some shady unlicensed place that will take her because they know they can make a profit off this family.  With enough time and money you can find someone to tell you what you want to hear.

[mmhmm]

Jan 6, 2014 16:04:57 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

So, if she's certified as dead, I mean legally, death certificate and all, are there any laws about tampering with corpses that would keep other institutions from taking her in and performing the surgeries she'll need to be put on feeding tubes and whatnot.  Legally she's already a corpse.  Aren't there laws about how those have to be handled and disposed?

Most of those laws are state laws, I think, Dark.  I don't know how the laws are written in California, so I have no clue whether there's anything there that would preclude what's happening. Apparently, since the coroner released the body to the mother, and the courts haven't done anything to stop that release, there's nothing.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I can't imagine further descrating my daughter's corpse.  There isn't going to be much left of her if they keep going. I'd assume once they accept she's dead they'd want some sort of funeral.  

  I just can't fathom the mindset of the family in this scenario.  What they plan for her body is horrifying to me.

[justme]

Oh geeze. In that link anne posted there's a reference to a press conference where the uncle said $250k (California's limit on non-economic damages) wasn't enough and $30M was more like it. Please tell me they aren't keeping her on a ventilator for more economic damages.  

[Sum Dum Gai]

If they're keeping her on a ventilator hoping for more money they're dumbasses.  Any forensic pathologist type person would tell them that the longer they wait the less likely they'll be able to prove wrongdoing during the surgery.  Any decent PR person would tell them that they're alienating themselves from the potential jurors when their wrongful death suit goes to court.  I'm sure their dragging this out is due to an inability to accept that their child has died.