HOA chaos- Very long post

[Ava]

Hi,

We had a management company that took care of certain things; trash removal, hiring snow plowers, yard maintenance, sending notices to people who didn't pay their dues, etc. The management company wasn't very good but more or less got things done.
Everyone who becomes president does something for themselves; have extra things done to their unit, hire contractors that are related to them, etc.
The new board members (elected six months ago) are in conflict, don't talk to each other, don't agree on a meeting.
The president fired management company and now he's "self-managing". We keep sending the monthly dues to the now fired management company and then the treasurer goes to pick up the checks. Some things are still getting done; trash removal, and paying water and sewer. But that's it. We don't have a snow removal contractor, yard maintenance contractor, etc.
The roofs are in very bad shape and we now have termite and rodent infestation. The treasurer is the signatory and refuses to attend meetings or talk to anyone. We don't know what's happening to our finances.
I get harassed almost every week by the president and the dissidents (president, or secretary who hate each other, plus random neighbors who want to become board members) showing up at my door to expose their case and remove the others, and to ask me for my proxy vote.
I attended a meeting on Friday the president organized. The treasurer and secretary showed up to yell at him the meeting didn't follow procedure and wasn't legal. After that they left. The president then proceeded to badmouth those two during two hours and then the meeting was adjourned.
This is a low income place and I fear there's major money embezzlement issues. They take this so personal.
I know the first suggestion will be for me to form part of the Board, but I work and attend night classes. Besides, these people are AGGRESSIVE and act with so much resentment towards one another, that I don't want to be involved. Each time they knock on my door they spew so much venom about the other board members that I'm starting to not answer the door to them anymore.
I want to have a management company and stop all this nonsense. The majority wants to self manage to "save money" but we keep paying the same amount in dues now that we don't have a management company and repairs are not getting done, so where is the money going?
Meanwhile my unit is deteriorating; gutters are not being cleaned, the roof is leaking, pest infestation. Don't know where to turn or what to do. 

[swamp]

Ask for an accounting 

[chiver78]

Dec 8, 2013 14:56:31 GMT -5 swamp said:

Ask for an accounting 

I'm a trustee in my HOA (in Massachusetts, so I'm speaking from knowing the laws I'm bound by. check your own state's....) and we have to provide financials and all accounting to any unit owner that asks for them. we also have to provide minutes to any meetings (including executive session, where we discuss individual unit owner issues like complaints/fines) to any unit owner that asks, the only exception being that executive session minutes only available at the office of the management company, and cannot be copied and removed from their site.

I would honestly look into retaining a real estate lawyer, perhaps with a group of your fellow unit owners that are also fed up with the state of the board?

sorry you have to deal with this.

[Ava]

Thanks for the answers.
This has become complete chaos. There is no management company anymore. The meeting we had on Friday was a disaster, no minutes taking, no procedure whatsoever. Just constant yelling and badmouthing. I am not going to attend any more meetings for now. They are not useful at all. Nothing changes, they are not even valid because the Board is not following procedure. The "meetings" are always "emergency meetings" now, organized by either the president on his own, or the other two Board members on their own. The meetings consist solely of the person present yelling, screaming, and insulting the other board members not present.
The treasurer yells and shuts the door on anyone who asks to see the accounts. Since this new Board was elected, we haven't receive any sort of financial information. Nothing.
This is going downhill really fast.
I don't want to talk to my neighbors, because like I said, there are mainly two groups that hate each other. They yell, scream, insult. There are others, like me, who are not involved. But anything you do would go back to those two groups via gossip. And these people take it personally; if you don't agree with them you are the enemy, period. Don't you dare question them or ask for any info. It's a small association (21 townhouses) and I cannot deal with being harassed.
It's very dysfunctional. It was a little better when we had the manager because I didn't have to deal with this crazies. Right now we don't have a lawyer, an accountant, any contractors, etc.
I guess I was more looking for information about available resources, like which authority should I contact? Housing authority maybe, where should I go with my concerns?

[swamp]

In NY, HOAs issues go to the Attorney General.  Des MA have the same requirement?  

[chiver78]

Dec 8, 2013 15:47:17 GMT -5 swamp said:

In NY, HOAs issues go to the Attorney General.  Des MA have the same requirement?  

eventually, yeah. I've never been in an HOA that was so chaotic though, I don't know if ava could just go straight to the AG right out of the gate. a quick call to the AG's office tomorrow is probably a good idea.

ava, I wouldn't stop going to the meetings. that, in my mind, is as bad as burying your head in the sand. I'd go to as many meetings as you can, and bring a tape recorder (following whatever state laws you have regarding recording of meetings.....) and I would honestly bring a lawyer with you to these meetings, if you can afford to retain one. this board is not at all conducting themselves according to any HOA laws that I am aware of in any state, and my advice to you would be to protect yourself and your investment as best you can.

what does your master deed say in regards to meetings, powers of the board, and all that?

good luck, and please keep us posted. feel free to PM me with any questions, I will ask my fellow trustees if I don't know the answer. I have only been on my board a couple years, but the rest have been around for much longer.

[Ava]

Thanks for both the info and the support.
Meetings are a horrible experience, with people just insulting. The only purpose of the meetings are to remove the other Board members. And they cannot even accomplish that because they are not following procedure. So the meetings are not valid. How can attending those meetings help me?
So should I contact a lawyer? How much would that cost? I don't think I can afford that.
I thought there was some authority you could contact in a situation like this. 
I know that if you have a financial issue with someone you can go to small claims court for free. If someone harms you then you go to the police for free.
So, I thought there was some legal agency I could contact with concerns. This association needs to get audited. How is it possible that nothing is getting done, finances are not recorded, and nothing happens? Obviusly all this is illegal.There has to be some authority overlooking condo associations.
I never complained so far because things more or less went on as long as the management company was here. But in the last six months there are no services, nobody is held accountable, no management company, etc. The first thing this board did was getting rid of the management company. Nobody overlooks them now, and I know they are after the monthly dues money. There's no lawyer, no accountant.
I just want the madness to stop. I can't even sell because most of the units are now rentals and I'm significantly underwater with the mortgage.
Maybe should I contact the bank that holds my note and ask if they k

[chiver78]

attending those meetings will help you because you will have record of them conducting themselves "in the name of the HOA" while not following any state HOA laws, nevermind any of their own procedures. any change to their procedures needs to be recorded in the rules 'n regs and master deed, where applicable. with what you've said here, I doubt those documents have been changed while these people have been in "office". if there isn't anyone willing and able to record them acting as they are, then it becomes a he said/she said thing. that they don't produce meeting minutes is actually helping your argument.

I don't know how much a RE lawyer would cost, I have a family friend that helps me out when I need personal counsel. sorry I didn't think of this earlier, what I would suggest before contacting a lawyer - getting your ducks in a row so you don't waste time (and $) when you do contact a lawyer. get official copies (registered w/the county) of your HOA's Master Deed and current Rules and Regulations. bring both to the next meeting - with your tape recorder, as allowed - and call the board out on where they are not following the R&R in place. take careful notes about what goes on at that meeting, and bring all those notes to the RE lawyer if/when you go.
Nobody overlooks them now, and I know they are after the monthly dues money. There's no lawyer, no accountant.fwiw, the HOA - at least those members that are registered with your county as being ON the HOA - is legally accountable for a full accounting of all HOA financials. if there is embezzlement going on, those people will be held liable if they are found out. if you send a registered/certified mail written request for the accounting, you can include that in your records moving forward....and the response, or lack thereof.

thankfully for me, I haven't had to deal with this. unfortunately for you, that means I don't have solid advice on how to proceed w/o a lawyer. I don't know how my own state's laws go as far as removing a board that isn't fit. that would be a question I'd have you ask a lawyer in your own state. where are you, btw?

[Ava]

I'm in Connecticut.
I don't really think I can afford an attorney.
I've never used one but I know they are very expensive.
What I'm  trying to do is to go to the proper authority to have the condo Board and association audited and maybe even overlooked by said authority, at least for a period of time, until things go to normal.
You have a point about attending the meetings, even  though they are a horrible experience.
They don't have any minutes of the meetings; nobody is writing them.
They are not following procedure because you need to notify all unit owners 10 days in advance before a meeting. The meetings have to be organized by the three Board members, and they are not doing that; each member is acting individually.
I really hope I can stop this situation soon.
The point is; there isn't much information available online about HOAs.
Would going to my city's Housing Authority help?

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

www.jud.ct.gov/lawlib/law/condominiums.htm

I'd start here. It looks like this site will give you something with regards to your rights as a condo owner with regards to the HOA. Like others said, I would continue to attend any and all meetings and either record and/or take notes of them. The site looks pretty comprehensive, but you may have to search for what you're looking for. There is quite a bit of info, and you might want to look particularly at the points where they talk about Common Interest Community Management.

You may have to retain an attorney to protect your interests and honestly, Ava.....you really cannot afford NOT to. You need to protect YOUR interests and your condo is an investment. This is a case where you probably need to find the money somehow because if you don't, your home is going to fall into even more disrepair and it will wind up costing even more than ever.

[Ava]

Thanks for the link, Mich.
I browsed over it and there's a ton of info. I'll have to read it with more attention.

Honestly, Mich, this condo is not an investment at this point. Between the association issues, the number of units converted to rentals, and the fact that I owe way more than the current market value, this is just a place to live for now.
When I move out of Connecticut I'll covert it to a rental, if this is still a viable place to live.
Honestly, the current situation is making me doubt that.
I don't really have the financial resources to engage a lawyer. And by the amount of issues we are talking about, said lawyer would need to be hired for a significant period of time. I have $8,000 in an emergency fund. That's all I have and I am not spending my money on this.
But I'll go through the link you provided to try and figure out how to proceed from here.
I don't want to live in a place that is deteriorating significantly and where my condo dues are going who knows where to cover who knows what.
I'm actually convinced money is being embezzled and I don't understand why I would have to spend significant amounts of money to protect myself (and several others who are just passive) from someone committing fraud.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Honestly, Mich, this condo is not an investment at this point. Between the association issues, the number of units converted to rentals, and the fact that I owe way more than the current market value, this is just a place to live for now.
When I move out of Connecticut I'll covert it to a rental, if this is still a viable place to live.

You are investing your money in it, right? That makes it an investment. It may not be a very good one, but it IS the place where you are living and if you decide to convert it to a rental, then this will have an impact upon whether or not you'll be able to rent it.

Why don't you contact a lawyer with your concerns? It may cost you a little money, but they can tell you what your legal options are. At this point, you have a mortgage on it and regardless of your interest in it, you ARE going to have to deal with this as a financial issue. Walking away from it is not a good idea, particularly in the sort of professional positions you will want to acquire in the future.

I think you need to look at the big picture. You have a large investment where you think someone is embezzling cash out of the funds to manage the facility. There is no oversight. You have signed your name on the bottom line and you are responsible for paying, regardless. Walking away will hurt you professionally. <shrug> I think that you need to protect yourself first and it may entail you using some of your emergency fund. I know that sucks, but what would suck worse is if you don't pay your HOA, get sent to collections and it screws up your future job prospects. What would suck is if you stop paying the mortgage (I know you're underwater) and the bank comes after you. I'm not sure that CT is a recourse state or not, but you could still be on the hook for paying as well as trashing your credit, and STILL needing to pay for a place to live.

This is a case where you may be penny wise and pound foolish if you are not careful.

JMHO

[Works4me]

Also, expensive is relative - most likely you are looking at a free consultation and then several hundred to a few thousand at most for advice on how to proceed as hiring an attorney is probably not your best bet - maybe a few of you who are concerned could go in together?

You should have a better idea of where you stand after reading the internet sites you were referred to. Also contact the police department, DA's office, Department of Housing and any other governmental body you can think of asking for assistance and referrals because if embezzlement is going on it is a crime.

[chiver78]

ava, Mich has given some excellent advice. you might not be looking at this place as your forever home, but you do still have a significant amount of money invested in it right now. unless you intend to hold onto this piece of real estate until you die, as a rental, it is an investment. I know you don't intend to live here any longer than you have to (and on that note, I absolutely feel your pain....I've just recently pulled my place from MLS listing for the winter to wait out market resets) but it is still absolutely an investment that you need to protect. your reply #10 raises a couple flags immediately to me about your ability to sell, should you find yourself above water - the completely unstable HOA and lack of documentation, as well as the high number of rentals. that high # of rentals is going to impact FHA approval by lenders and may severely decrease the pool of potential buyers, as people in the market for condos tend to be first-time buyers who are looking to get a foot in the door of the real estate market, so to speak. FHA has a minimum requirement for owner-occupied units within a complex, in order to approved for a purchase offer.

as far as the lawyer goes, even if you do nothing more than a consultation appointment with what we've brought up here, you'll be far better off than not having reached out at all. I get being stretched, but you really can't trust the HOA as you've presented here.

[Ava]

Very good advice, thanks.
I don't intend to stop paying the HOA dues or my mortgage. 
What I want to do is solve the issue as I continue to pay.
It's a pity because the condos were in good shape when I bought mine. Since then many owners turned their units into rentals, the Board fired the management company, and things have gone downhill.
I am pretty sure there's crime involved here, where's the money if we continue to pay and services and maintenance is not provided?
I have my finals at school this week, and then I'll go to the old country for the holidays.
But when I'm back in mid-January I'll go to the courthouse. There's a clerk who works there who is very knowledgeable and willing to help. I know because he helped me a few years back when I filed for my divorce. I did it on my own and he helped me do all the paperwork.
Thanks again for all the good advice and support.

[chiver78]

before you leave for the holidays, please check your master deed/R&R - your board might not legally be able to "fire" your management company per your docs. if they are under contract, and the mgmt company didn't fight the firing, I wouldn't want that company back, but you should still be covered if it's in the docs that the board can't fire the management company.

[Peace77]

Would the warring board members be willing to sit down with a professional mediator?

[Ava]

A professional mediator? It's a good idea, but I don't know if it would work.
They are too far gone on aggression and insults. I don't think there is a way of turning them around. This situation is been ongoing for YEARS. The management company acted as a buffer, until it got dismissed.
Besides, the main issue here is disorganization. The majority of the owners are absent landlords. There are a few of us left here, but mostly we are overwhelmed and unprepared for this. And then there are the warring Board members.
Suppose I decide to propose the idea of mediation. Who do I present it to? The president says the other two Board members don't talk to him. The treasurer yells and screams to anyone who knocks on her door to talk about the association. 
Where am I supposed to present this idea? It's beyond broken.
I personally feel help has to come from outside, from an entity with authority to stop the abuse and the probable embezzlement.
There's only one person allowed to sign on the accounts, with no oversight from anyone. For the last six months that person is acting alone and has not presented any financial records to anyone.
The idea of "self-managing" is sheer craziness to me, considering what is going on, but the few people who attended the meeting want to go along with it because the president said it would save us money and our dues will go down. 

[Peace77]

I'd start with the President.  Then, ask the other board members.  It would be less than an attorney.

This reminds we me of the TV commercial where the PTA officers are screaming at each other.  A little girl stands up and says, "I think we need a Time-Out".  Have you seen it?

The finances need to be accounted for and there needs to be more than 1 person who can sign checks.  If that person is hospitalized, goes out of town or dies, then what?

[Ava]

I know there needs to be more than one person authorized to sign the checks. I wasn't aware we didn't have a second authorized person until this past Friday. I also didn't know we don't have a snow contractor. It's starting to snow right now. All these services; snow removal, yard work, etc. are included in what we pay monthly. But we are not receiving those services.
To me, I have enough to go to the courthouse and ask them about my (and my neighbors) rights and how to proceed from here. I am not letting these individuals steal from me or completely destroy this place.

[Ava]

But when you propose something, like you suggest, they immediately retort; "The others don't speak to me" and "Are you going to pay for that?"
Believe me, I wouldn't be thinking about going to the courthouse if I thought this could be solved internally.

[mmhmm]

I think, based on the link Mich gave you, I might start here, Ava:

Department of Consumer Protection
165 Capitol Avenue
Hartford, Connecticut 06106-1630
Main Telephone: [phone]
Consumer Info / Complaints: [phone]
Toll-Free: [phone]
TDD: [phone]
Fax: [phone]


These folks should be able to give you some answers, and/or direct you to the right people to speak with.