Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Dec 5, 2013 13:01:53 GMT -5
I have a question about panhandling. Specifically, what's the return on investment for time spent?
When I see these guys on the street corner or sitting by the road, I have to wonder how much money they actually get for the length of time they do it. On one hand, I can't imagine they get much money per unit length of time they spend doing it, and they'd likely be better off doing something else for money, even a minimum wage job. But then I realize that they wouldn't do it if it was a waste of their time. So there must be some value in it for them.
What do you think? Is panhandling a good return on investment for your time? I'm ignoring the moral arguments about begging for money on this one, because I'm curious as to exactly what they get out of it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2013 13:04:06 GMT -5
I have a question about panhandling. Specifically, what's the return on investment for time spent? When I see these guys on the street corner or sitting by the road, I have to wonder how much money they actually get for the length of time they do it. On one hand, I can't imagine they get much money per unit length of time they spend doing it, and they'd likely be better off doing something else for money, even a minimum wage job. But then I realize that they wouldn't do it if it was a waste of their time. So there must be some value in it for them. What do you think? Is panhandling a good return on investment for your time? I'm ignoring the moral arguments about begging for money on this one, because I'm curious as to exactly what they get out of it. There are stories about six figure executives that would spend time pan handling because it was so lucrative.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Dec 5, 2013 13:10:28 GMT -5
I have a question about panhandling. Specifically, what's the return on investment for time spent? When I see these guys on the street corner or sitting by the road, I have to wonder how much money they actually get for the length of time they do it. On one hand, I can't imagine they get much money per unit length of time they spend doing it, and they'd likely be better off doing something else for money, even a minimum wage job. But then I realize that they wouldn't do it if it was a waste of their time. So there must be some value in it for them. What do you think? Is panhandling a good return on investment for your time? I'm ignoring the moral arguments about begging for money on this one, because I'm curious as to exactly what they get out of it. There are stories about six figure executives that would spend time pan handling because it was so lucrative. Really? I've given money to panhandler's on occasion, but never much. Have you ever tried it?
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Cass
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Post by Cass on Dec 5, 2013 13:13:32 GMT -5
I think a lot of these guys have mental health or addiction issues and maybe unable to hold down a job (?). Most of the ones around here are likely on welfare or disability and use panhandling to supplement that income.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2013 13:14:11 GMT -5
There are stories about six figure executives that would spend time pan handling because it was so lucrative. Really? I've given money to panhandler's on occasion, but never much. Have you ever tried it? And associate with street people? I never.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Dec 5, 2013 13:24:14 GMT -5
There are a lot of panhandlers here, they're at just about every major intersection.
A neighbor got hit up by one at the grocery store, a woman needing money for gas so she could get home. So he gave her $10. The following week, the same woman hit him up with the same excuse.
The only time I've contributed was a guy with a dog who was on the corner as I was going into the grocery store. Bought the guy a sandwich at the store, and bought the dog a bag of dog food. He was appreciative of both. But I do NOT give money.
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dannylion
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Post by dannylion on Dec 5, 2013 13:30:56 GMT -5
There have been accounts of professional panhandlers bringing in something in the 50-60k range. I recall an article (it was on a news organization website--not Faux News--but I cannot remember which, maybe WTOP or Washington Post) a few years ago that cited information from a tax preparer who stated he had panhandler clients who actually filed tax returns on their panhandling income, and it was in that range. I have no idea whether any of it was true, but with the right location and a good sob story involving starving children, I think it is plausible. Many people are pretty gullible and suckers for a starving-children back story.
I suspect that the professional panhandlers do it because it's easier than a minimum-wage job (and possibly more lucrative). The rest of the panhandlers are unable to get or keep any kind of job for a variety of reasons, so it is not really reasonable to assess the value of their time in relation to the potential income from any sort of employment.
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Sharon
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Post by Sharon on Dec 5, 2013 13:31:24 GMT -5
For this one guy I see every afternoon it can't be too lucrative, he is too busy reading a book. There is a little strip of landscaped area between the lanes and he sits there, in the bark dust, with his bike propped against a tree and his cardboard sign against his knee reading a book. Once in a while he will look up and hold up his sign but mostly he sits there and reads.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Dec 5, 2013 13:48:56 GMT -5
There was a huge story down on Clearwater beach when this crap first started happening. Blonde mommy with two pretty blonde little daughters was raking in the cash until someone did a news story on her and busted her scam wide open. Her kids should have been in school so the authorities got involved there as well. Her "husband" was living in a nice place on the beach while his "wife" and her children hustled. She used those cute kids to garner more sympathy/money. She was furious to get busted btw.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Dec 5, 2013 13:52:38 GMT -5
I've never in my life have seen the scope of panhandling in this area that I have in the last few years. I find it really concerning. I know the economy has been rough for a lot of people, but I also wonder about the sincerity of people. I was raised Catholic, so it was really ingrained in me that we should give to the poor, but which poor? Where do you find the people who really need and deserve help? I have big reservations as to whether they are the ones panhandling.
I've seen this same young couple a couple of different times by this mall that's about 40 miles away, so I'm not there but once in a great while. Their sign says they have a couple kids, and one on the way, but I don't see the other kids, and the couple is together. It just makes me wonder. They get someone to babysit while they beg for money in the median?
The sincerity issue makes me not give most of the time, but a man was walking by as I was leaving school one afternoon and asked if I had 75 cents for bus fare. I pulled out my wallet to give him a buck, and he proceeds to bring it up to $1.50, then $3. I only had $3 in cash on me at the time, but told him, "no, just a buck". I wished I hadn't given him anything by then, but he was an unsavory looking character, so I was just firm and he said thanks and walked away. It didn't feel good to give him money because I felt scammed.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Dec 5, 2013 13:53:36 GMT -5
Well, if a panhandler makes 50k a year, and if they do it for 2000 hours a year as part of their "job" that would mean they'd have to get about $25 an hour. I haven't watched them that closely, but I have a hard time believing they get that much. I almost never see anyone give them money, but granted there aren't that many panhandlers around here. It's too cold for that this time of year anyway.
Which raises the point that you can only panhandle certain times of the year, so you aren't likely even getting 2000 hours in. At least that's the case in any place with a proper winter.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Dec 5, 2013 13:58:47 GMT -5
Maybe I'm wrong, but if you're someone who stands on the street corner begging for cash, you don't strike me as the type who would voluntarily pay taxes on your "income."
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Dec 5, 2013 14:03:43 GMT -5
I almost never see anyone give them money, but granted there aren't that many panhandlers around here.
But how long do you watch them? There is almost always one off the intersection of I5 where I get off to go home. If I am in a line of cars at the light to turn onto my road, I almost always see someone hand them money, so maybe 1 in 10 cars? If 300 cars go through the intersection in an hour, that could be as much as $30.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Dec 5, 2013 14:32:39 GMT -5
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dannylion
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Post by dannylion on Dec 5, 2013 14:42:16 GMT -5
Maybe I'm wrong, but if you're someone who stands on the street corner begging for cash, you don't strike me as the type who would voluntarily pay taxes on your "income."
The tax guy in the article had an explanation for that, which I recall thinking was reasonable at the time, I just can't remember what the reason was. Maybe they just wanted to avoid being prosecuted for tax evasion. If they were depositing their panhandling proceeds into a bank account, that leaves a trail, and if there is no explanation as to the source, it could attract unwanted attention. If the panhandler really is supporting a family on panhandling proceeds, the tax bite would likely be fairly low what with all the deductions. Who knows, maybe their income and family status made them eligible for benefits like Medicaid, food stamps, and EIC, which would translate into additional income. I believe they would need to file a tax return to get at least some of those benefits, wouldn't they?
You're probably right that the stereotypical panhandler would not be interested in paying taxes and possibly not even aware of the tax implications of having income from panhandling. However, it is likely that there is a certain percentage of panhandlers who do it as a career choice, having done the math and determined that for them panhandling is preferable to having a job or more lucrative than working. If there are additional benefits to be had by keeping records and filing taxes, it is not so surprising that some would choose to do that.
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Dec 5, 2013 14:45:57 GMT -5
I don't think a dollar will help them so most people who do give probably give more like some $5 or $20 so one car an hour might beat minimum wage. Also they could work days and do this weekends and evening so not cut off food stamps like a second job.
I will never give them money but some do. Those that beg while drinking a big gulp seem to be just wasting the money anyhow or someone donated one.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Dec 5, 2013 14:50:37 GMT -5
Maybe I'm wrong, but if you're someone who stands on the street corner begging for cash, you don't strike me as the type who would voluntarily pay taxes on your "income."
The tax guy in the article had an explanation for that, which I recall thinking was reasonable at the time, I just can't remember what the reason was. Maybe they just wanted to avoid being prosecuted for tax evasion. If they were depositing their panhandling proceeds into a bank account, that leaves a trail, and if there is no explanation as to the source, it could attract unwanted attention. If the panhandler really is supporting a family on panhandling proceeds, the tax bite would likely be fairly low what with all the deductions. Who knows, maybe their income and family status made them eligible for benefits like Medicaid, food stamps, and EIC, which would translate into additional income. I believe they would need to file a tax return to get at least some of those benefits, wouldn't they?
You're probably right that the stereotypical panhandler would not be interested in paying taxes and possibly not even aware of the tax implications of having income from panhandling. However, it is likely that there is a certain percentage of panhandlers who do it as a career choice, having done the math and determined that for them panhandling is preferable to having a job or more lucrative than working. If there are additional benefits to be had by keeping records and filing taxes, it is not so surprising that some would choose to do that.
Yes, I thought of that after I had made that post. If they file a tax return, they may qualify for other benefits like EIC that may supplement their income. So in reaility, it may be a good move.
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Sharon
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Post by Sharon on Dec 5, 2013 14:52:54 GMT -5
I have actually joked with my DD that she should go out there wearing her college sweatshirt and hold a sign that says "Need tuition money".
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Dec 5, 2013 15:04:01 GMT -5
There have been accounts of professional panhandlers bringing in something in the 50-60k range. I recall an article (it was on a news organization website--not Faux News--but I cannot remember which, maybe WTOP or Washington Post) a few years ago that cited information from a tax preparer who stated he had panhandler clients who actually filed tax returns on their panhandling income, and it was in that range. I have no idea whether any of it was true, but with the right location and a good sob story involving starving children, I think it is plausible. Many people are pretty gullible and suckers for a starving-children back story.
I suspect that the professional panhandlers do it because it's easier than a minimum-wage job (and possibly more lucrative). The rest of the panhandlers are unable to get or keep any kind of job for a variety of reasons, so it is not really reasonable to assess the value of their time in relation to the potential income from any sort of employment. Danny's information is in line with statistics I've seen reported, $200 - $300 per 4 -5 hour day. Assuming $250 a day, 250 days a year (you get holidays and weekends off), it'd be $62,500, or about $55 an hour.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Dec 5, 2013 15:06:47 GMT -5
Interesting. So I guess giving money to panhandlers isn't a good idea. It sounds like if you really want to help the homeless, you're better off just donating to a local homeless shelter or soup kitchen.
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Cass
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Post by Cass on Dec 5, 2013 15:16:06 GMT -5
Our liquor store downtown is a very popular spot and they fight over the territory. The city put in a yellow "care" meter with the idea that people could donate to that instead and the money will go to local agencies. Not sure how much they pull in but there is still someone out front at any given time of day.
Since the sidewalk is public space, the store even had to change its entrance to open on to the parking lot so their customers wouldn't be harassed. They still call to people from the sidewalk though.
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lynnerself
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Post by lynnerself on Dec 5, 2013 15:45:50 GMT -5
I've heard rumors that they are organized in our city. A group that shares the best sites and the income.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Dec 5, 2013 15:55:50 GMT -5
So I guess the next question is, if it's such a racket, why do people still donate the money? That $60,000+ has to come from somewhere.
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bobosensei
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Post by bobosensei on Dec 6, 2013 10:20:00 GMT -5
I usually don't give to anyone begging, but I might give on occasion to someone performing music or street dancing. The worst one I saw was at the train station in Naples, Italy. This woman with a baby latched to her breast was there all day begging. We saw her coming and going. She walked right up to everyone and stuck the suckling baby up to their faces. DH and I just walked away and stayed away from her, but she did get several donations from people and not just tourists.
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justme
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Post by justme on Dec 6, 2013 11:16:59 GMT -5
I remember a few years back one of the local DJs did that. I think he got at least $100 in an hour. Though part of that may have been people that figured out his location. They donated all the money he got to charity.
Then John Stossel did it on his show. I forgot how much he got, but it was a decent amount and all he needed was some worn down clothes, a hat, and a fake beard from the prop closet and no one knew it was him. (Googled, apparently he only got $11 in an hour which is less than what most of the other stories note).
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Dec 6, 2013 11:28:34 GMT -5
In Houston I watched a panhandler walk around the corner after being on the street and jump into his car (I was running - saw him on my way past and then saw him get into his car on the way back on the other side of the park).
Here in Seattle there are some panhandlers that are clearly not well mentally nor physically and are not "scamming" in that - they really do need the money for their next beer/hit/sandwich. Then there are the dudes that hang around at the I-5 exits with their ipods and earphones on dancing with a sign.
I don't give anyone money. There are organizations that will be sure to provide food, shelter, and clothing to those in need. I have no desire to support alcohol or drug addictions or the vicious cycle people are in.
I have given leftovers or food. If someone really wants to eat a stranger's leftovers, they must be hungry.
I do the dog food thing, too.
There are a TON of homeless/panhandlers in the downtown Seattle area. A shocking amount, actually, given the wealth, education, and low unemployment numbers in this area.
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Dec 6, 2013 11:35:54 GMT -5
I almost never see anyone give them money, but granted there aren't that many panhandlers around here.But how long do you watch them? There is almost always one off the intersection of I5 where I get off to go home. If I am in a line of cars at the light to turn onto my road, I almost always see someone hand them money, so maybe 1 in 10 cars? If 300 cars go through the intersection in an hour, that could be as much as $30. I don't know what cheaphole she is living in but here in Philly people giving freely... And btw when it is cold out there - we have subway stations etc. where they are cozily 'working' our minds. I am not sure where suburban panhandlers are going in a winter. Oops! There aren't any here, sorry.
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Dec 6, 2013 11:58:53 GMT -5
There are panhandlers I see on the el multiple times a month but I just ignore them. I think the one is definitely mentally ill, the other has a good "homeless" vet shtick. There are some notorious high-volume panhandling areas in Philly.
I do appreciate the musicians in the train and subway concourses. Some of them are there because the accoustics are great for practicing. But you can tell the people who are playing in public for the love of it (the pocket change doesn't hurt!) and the loonies. There is one guy who knows two songs on the trumpet but he is playing down at the sports complex religiously. He's an institution!
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Dec 6, 2013 12:00:12 GMT -5
I almost never see anyone give them money, but granted there aren't that many panhandlers around here.But how long do you watch them? There is almost always one off the intersection of I5 where I get off to go home. If I am in a line of cars at the light to turn onto my road, I almost always see someone hand them money, so maybe 1 in 10 cars? If 300 cars go through the intersection in an hour, that could be as much as $30. I don't know what cheaphole she is living in but here in Philly people giving freely... Not giving money to panhandlers doesn't have a thing to do with being cheap.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Dec 6, 2013 12:28:30 GMT -5
I remember an article in one of the Phoenix papers when I was a teen about a woman with two little kids that would beg at the airport. Had a whole back story about how she'd been stranded there and was trying to get money for a ticket home for her and her daughter. She was making six figures. Some of the travelers would buy her plane tickets instead of giving cash. She'd cash in the tickets with the airlines. The investigative reporter followed her for days and saw her being dropped off and picked up every day by a guy in a BMW.
She was more of a scam artist than a panhandler though. She's probably still taking money from gullible people somewhere.
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