SYG- Wandering alzheimer's patient shot by homeowner

[EVT1]

www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2013/11/29/Man-kills-Alzheimers-patient-thinking-hes-a-burglar/UPI-84901385708928/

     Westbrook rang the doorbell where Hendrix and his fiancee live around 4 a.m. The couple moved into the subdivision about two weeks ago, a neighbor said.

     The fiancee, whose name was not released, called police and stayed on the phone with an emergency dispatcher who sent two sheriff's office patrol cars to the residence.

     After a 9- or 10-minute wait, before deputies arrived, Hendrix went outside armed with a .40-caliber handgun and saw the elderly man in silhouette behind the house, Wilson said.

     Fearing for his safety, Hendrix fired four shots, with one bullet hitting Westbrook in the chest, killing him, the sheriff said.
 
     Georgia's 2006 "Stand Your Ground" law, which lets people use deadly force to protect themselves, "may apply to this case," Wilson told reporters.

Once again some dumbass with a gun exits a perfectly safe location to confront and kill an unknown person.  Last time an unarmed young lady, this time a 72yo man clutching papers.  No arrest of course.  This taking the law into your own hands shit has to stop. 

      
 

[EVT1]

"before deputies arrived, Hendrix went outside armed"

Sounds like a Zimmerman decision- maybe the next idiot will be shot by police that fear for their safety when they roll up on them after a call.

[grits]

If his property and animals were safe, the idiot should have stayed in the house until the police got there.

[EVT1]

Exactly- huge difference between standing your ground and taking your ground with you to confront someone.  Apparently some people think it is OK to just shoot any stranger on their property- have to find a way to put a stop to it and it starts by locking up these people that do it.  Arrest please......

[vandalshandle]

Well, if the old guy was wearing a hoodie, and carrying Skittles, the homeownere probably did the right thing. He was probably casing the nieghborhood with the intent of stealing somebody's Depends.

[Deleted]

 A few years back I was weekending with friends in a small resort "cottage" community. Around 11 PM an old guy walked into the house, uninvited and unexpected, and mumbling incoherently... quite a surprise. He was the owner/resident of a cottage down the block and around the corner. He was having "an episode"... totally disoriented and out of it, probably medication-related (It was unprecedented, there were no previous similar incidents).  My hostess sat him down and called various neighbors until she was able to track down one of the old guy's sons and let him know what had happened. They came right over, brought him to his own cottage, and got him a live-in "companion" to enable him to stay out of the nursing home. As far as I know, the old guy is still doing alright and living at home, with assistance.

 Of course, my hostess did not have any handguns...

isn't it a good thing the old guy didn't walk into the "wrong" house. 

[EVT1]

Yep- it kills me- this guy goes outside to confront this person in the dark- and then we are supposed to empathize with him because he was in fear for his life and had to shoot since he could not ascertain who the person was, the person didn't obey his 'commands' and allegedly walked towards him.  At least cops use flashlights to see if the person is armed or potentially dangerous before they shoot.

This is the same BS situation Zimmerman was in- do something stupid and create a situation that never had to exist and take a life in the process.  We really need more SYG laws considering all of the good they are doing.  They just need to rename it the paranoid gun owner protection act.

[the flying reindeer]

I remember at the time of the Zimmerman case reading an article of how either the NRA or Koch brothers were mounting campaigns throughout the US for more states to pass SYG laws. Thankfully, I live in one of the state's not on their list.

However, nowhere is safe from idiots like this one. I can understand why the couple was alarmed to have a stranger outside their house at 4 a.m. but, as they had already called the police, who were on the way, why didn't the man just stay inside and wait?

I might have had more sympathy for him if the stranger was trying to get into the house, but to go out and confront him? Why? He should be arrested and charged with manslaughter.

[djAdvocate]

the planet is so much safer without disoriented 72 year olds wandering around......

[Tennesseer]

Dec 1, 2013 1:21:34 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

the planet is so much safer without disoriented 72 year olds wandering around......

Citizen Death Panels.

[djAdvocate]

Dec 1, 2013 11:13:19 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Dec 1, 2013 1:21:34 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

the planet is so much safer without disoriented 72 year olds wandering around......

Citizen Death Panels.

Zimmerman's Army

[thyme4change]

The guy did the old man a favor.  I wonder if I can get an arrangement like that.

[EVT1]

I want to know how the 'fear of imminent death or great bodily harm' will be explained- if they even arrest the guy.

Rang the door at 4AM, wandering in the yard- ok, no immediate threat.  Alarming, sure - police called.

Dumbass goes outside:

Someone in the shadows, walking towards you not obeying your 'commands'- still no threat yet....BOOM!X4

At least GZ had a plausible fear (not withstanding the fact he instigated the situation)- he was at least in a fight.  This guy shot a shadow that didn't do what he told it to.

This guy is probably lucky he wasn't the one shot- apparently the wife did not know he went out with the gun- the cops looking for a potential burglar could have run up upon this guy with his gun and shot him the minute he turned towards them.  What a dangerous and stupid decision- have to make an example.

If not for SYG his ass would already be charged- again tell me how this law is a good idea?

[EVT1]

The following is a list of people that acted in self defense that would have been prosecuted if not for the stand your ground expansion of the castle doctrine:
 

[zibazinski]

[Sum Dum Gai]

Dec 1, 2013 14:04:51 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

The guy did the old man a favor.  I wonder if I can get an arrangement like that.

I'll take care of it Thyme but your kiddo has to swear to do the same for me if I get dementia. I can't trust my own kids to do it.

[zibazinski]

DS knows to take me by a pond and just let me wander in. No way do I want him going to jail for putting me out of my misery.

[workpublic]

i actually had my father ask me to stop the car on the causeway and push him in(one of his last lucid moments) as i was driving him from the hospital to the nursing home. i didn't. he died 10 days later.

[Sum Dum Gai]

My MIL wants us to walk her over to the cliffs overlooking the Pacific a block from her house and push her over if she gets dementia.  As long as there are no witnesses it'll look like she wandered out and tragically fell.  I don't think I could actually do it though.  I doubt my wife could either.  That's the problem with having family help kill you, they probably won't be able to go through with it.

[workpublic]

dementia's a tough one. at least with ALS(what my mother died from) i'll be able to poison myself once the diagnosis is made.

[Virgil Showlion]

What a pleasant thread.

Even though it mentions it in the article, I don't see how a SYG defense would apply here. There still has to be some reasonable expectation of harm, no? An element that this case clearly lacks, which is why it's so outrageous.

[Deleted]

 "Reasonable expectation of harm"?

 Considering the elevated levels of incidence of suicides in police and military members... shouldn't they all be specially monitored for mental illness?

[Sum Dum Gai]

An unknown person coming toward you in the dark, refusing your command to stop, and being in your yard at 4am in the first place doesn't sound dangerous to you?

Granted my first thought is they're probably drunk off their ass mistook our house for theirs and are trying to come in the back because their key isn't working in the front, but that's only because it's happened to us twice when I was a kid. All the houses look the same in government housing complexes.

[Virgil Showlion]

Dec 2, 2013 16:12:45 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

An unknown person coming toward you in the dark, refusing your command to stop, and being in your yard at 4am in the first place doesn't sound dangerous to you?

Granted my first thought is they're probably drunk off their ass mistook our house for theirs and are trying to come in the back because their key isn't working in the front, but that's only because it's happened to us twice when I was a kid. All the houses look the same in government housing complexes.

Not inherently "get the shotgun" dangerous, no. But I've been accused of being naive more than once.

That's what this case boils down to. Either you consider "unknown person coming towards you, 4:00 AM, refusing to stop" a likely serious threat of harm, or you don't. If you do, this shooting is justified. It turned out to be a harmless lost old man in this case, but the shooter doesn't have the luxury of time to make that determination.

If you don't (and I'm in this basket), then it's manslaughter or homicide--whatever the courts decide to proceed with. The shooter exercised force grossly disproportionate to the threat presented.

The only place I see SYG having any bearing is the issue of whether an armed homeowner has a duty of care to wait inside his home rather than confronting a suspected burglar, etc.

[Tennesseer]

The man and his wife were safe within the confines of their home. The police were on the way.  Yet the man decided to step outside and look for the guy who rang the door bell. 

Common sense tells one to stay indoors until the police arrive.  If the person outside breaks through the home door, then you shoot.   

[Sum Dum Gai]

I could see this case ending in a conviction for the shooter because I agree that going out to confront the guy was a mistake on his part. I can also see why he felt threatened by a stranger in his yard at 4am that came toward him in the dark and wouldn't stop.

[Virgil Showlion]

Dec 2, 2013 17:28:46 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

The man and his wife were safe within the confines of their home. The police were on the way.  Yet the man decided to step outside and look for the guy who rang the door bell. 

Common sense tells one to stay indoors until the police arrive.  If the person outside breaks through the home door, then you shoot.   

I agree with you, but the obvious counterpoint is that if the prowler is a thief and you have valuables in your yard, car, or garage, you're basically cowering in your house while he robs you blind.

My thoughts are "Well it isn't worth killing him over." but a good many people think otherwise and I can't say with any conviction that they're wrong.

[Tennesseer]

Dec 2, 2013 17:41:26 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Dec 2, 2013 17:28:46 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

The man and his wife were safe within the confines of their home. The police were on the way.  Yet the man decided to step outside and look for the guy who rang the door bell. 

Common sense tells one to stay indoors until the police arrive.  If the person outside breaks through the home door, then you shoot.   

I agree with you, but the obvious counterpoint is that if the prowler is a thief and you have valuables in your yard, car, or garage, you're basically cowering in your house while he robs you blind.

My thoughts are "Well it isn't worth killing him over." but a good many people think otherwise and I can't say with any conviction that they're wrong.

Prowlers don't usually ring your door bell at 0400 to announce their arrival they are going to steal you belongings from your yard.

Prowlers don't want attention.  Sneak in-sneak out.

[Virgil Showlion]

Dec 2, 2013 17:46:14 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Dec 2, 2013 17:41:26 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

I agree with you, but the obvious counterpoint is that if the prowler is a thief and you have valuables in your yard, car, or garage, you're basically cowering in your house while he robs you blind.

My thoughts are "Well it isn't worth killing him over." but a good many people think otherwise and I can't say with any conviction that they're wrong.

Prowlers don't usually ring your door bell at 0400 to announce their arrival they are going to steal you belongings from your yard.

Prowlers don't want attention.  Sneak in-sneak out.

Did this guy ring the doorbell?

I... completely blazed over that in the news story. Very first sentence.

In that case, Mr. Hendrix doesn't stand a chance. Like you say, a thief isn't going to ring the doorbell at 4:00 AM, and there's no reason whatsoever besides that to leave the house.

Poor old guy. Probably hopelessly confused, trying to figure out if it was his house. At least he lived a full life.

[Tennesseer]

Virgil Showlion - my mother was a 'runner' (with her walker no less), always trying to escape her secured Alzheimer's facilty.  Where she was trying to escape to, she of all people had no idea.  Had she escaped, possibly no good could have come from it.  Confusion reigns supreme.

Alzheimer's sufferers often are up late at night as they cannot sleep.  So they walk, and walk, and walk.  If they are being taken care of by family in their homes, the family needs to make sure the mentally impaired family member cannot escape the house morning, noon or night.  Sometimes the escape (as what appears to have happened to this older man) ends in tragedy.

No matter how badly the guy who shot the guy feels, the family of the dead man feels even worse for not making sure he couldn't escape the house.