"Christian" couple leaves anti-gay rant instead of tip

[EVT1]

Technically- but other Christians don't trust them

[mmhmm]

I think, if it's flies you're after, you'll catch more of them by showing them you're not trying to chase them down, tackle them, and force them to become something other than flies.  You can put out the honey, but if the flies see you lurking in ambush, holding a can of RAID, you'll attract far fewer.

[Deleted]

Oct 29, 2013 10:14:07 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

People, I think, are wary of rumors for good reason.  Have you seen the news about the young people who have taken their own lives because of rumors?  Have you ever seen someone who had to leave a workplace because of rumors circulating that were untrue?  I have.  It's not a pretty picture.

But that only happens because we give the rumor power. 

When it stops being a big deal if someone thinks you are gay... It will lose its power to drive someone to despair. 

So what positive benefit do we bring by relegating sexuality to the shadows?  Is my wonder..

[mmhmm]

Oct 29, 2013 12:06:35 GMT -5 oped said:

Oct 29, 2013 10:14:07 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

People, I think, are wary of rumors for good reason.  Have you seen the news about the young people who have taken their own lives because of rumors?  Have you ever seen someone who had to leave a workplace because of rumors circulating that were untrue?  I have.  It's not a pretty picture.

But that only happens because we give the rumor power. 

When it stops being a big deal if someone thinks you are gay... It will lose its power to drive someone to despair. 

So what positive benefit do we bring by relegating sexuality to the shadows?  Is my wonder..

Who said anything about "regulating sexuality to the shadows", oped?  All I've said is an individual's sexuality is their business to share as they wish to share it.  Someone else's sexuality is not my business to share as I see fit.  That's not regulating anything to the shadows.  That's observing another's right to some privacy.

[Deleted]

Oct 29, 2013 12:03:07 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I think, if it's flies you're after, you'll catch more of them by showing them you're not trying to chase them down, tackle them, and force them to become something other than flies.  You can put out the honey, but if the flies see you lurking in ambush, holding a can of RAID, you'll attract far fewer.

Typically, if it's flies your after, your goal is ex-flies. The metaphor becomes alarming the further I extend it...

... But it's accurate. Fundamentally, and I do mean fundamentally, a religion exists in competition with other religions and with irreligious worldviews. A Buddhist can tell you placidly to walk away from Buddhism if it isn't right for you, but that's because a Buddhist has some complicated meta shit going on there: to him, you're still being a Buddhist, you just don't realize it yet.

The problem with free religion is that it allows for this sort of hate, just as any democratic freedom allows for dissent.

[chiver78]

Oct 29, 2013 11:52:14 GMT -5 The Captain said:

We all know trolls exist on the internet.

Has anyone considered that fact that they exist in real life as well?

I see this note as a tool to stir up predictable hatred against Christians, and you know what?

It seems to be working very well.

not all Christians, just those ones that left the unnecessary nasty note.

[Deleted]

I was thinking much more generally. About whether or not it's ok to ask someone if they are gay? About my reaction to the question? Etc... 

I think everyone has the right to keep private information private.

And I also think that the 'whole gay thing' won't stop being an issue until it's not considered 'private information' ... Until it's just another box you check, it will continue to carry a social stigma capable of causing despair. 

I guess im im longing for the day when 'you gay?' Is about as controversial as 'you into blondes? Or 'you a Leo?'... 

[mmhmm]

Typically, if it's flies your after, your goal is ex-flies. The metaphor becomes alarming the further I extend it...

Precisely.  Therein lies the rub for those of us who are not Christians, and are not affiliated with any other recognized and "acceptable" faith.  It is our responsibilty, and our mission, to see that we remain "flies". 

[Deleted]

I get where you're coming from, oped.

For whatever that endorsement may be worth

[mmhmm]

Oct 29, 2013 12:22:02 GMT -5 oped said:

I was thinking much more generally. About whether or not it's ok to ask someone if they are gay? About my reaction to the question? Etc... 

I think everyone has the right to keep private information private.

And I also think that the 'whole gay thing' won't stop being an issue until it's not considered 'private information' ... Until it's just another box you check, it will continue to carry a social stigma capable of causing despair. 

I guess im im longing for the day when 'you gay?' Is about as controversial as 'you into blondes? Or 'you a Leo?'... 

I think most of us, these days, would like to see that day come.  I know I'm not interested in someone else's sexual proclivities and would find no value in asking someone if they were gay.  I'm completely baffled why anyone would.  Yet, they do.  Longing for that not to be, while nice, isn't going to make it so.  There will always be those amongst us who feel their answers are the "right" answers for everyone.  I avoid them whenever possible, and ignore them otherwise.

[mmhmm]

38 minutes ago thecaptain_of_Zombie_Land said:
We all know trolls exist on the internet.

Has anyone considered that fact that they exist in real life as well?

I see this note as a tool to stir up predictable hatred against Christians, and you know what?

It seems to be working very well.

I don't think it's working well, at all, in a general sense.  Those who are looking to hate will hate.  Most of us won't.

[Sum Dum Gai]

I know I'm not interested in someone else's sexual proclivities and would find no value in asking someone if they were gay. I'm completely baffled why anyone would.

So I know which friend to take clothes shopping with me if I don't want to look like a schlub, duh.

[Deleted]

Oct 28, 2013 19:43:51 GMT -5 steff said:

Most don't realize that even the busboys are only making the roughly $2.13 an hour & the ONLY extra they make is from the tips the waiters get.  They don't have a chance to impress a customer to earn a tip.  an impressed customer is one that isn't having to stand & wait & watch the buser clear & clean the table.  But that same impressed customer isn't going to tip extra because they got a clean table.  

That is insane.
Minimum wage should be the law and tips should be on top of that minimum wage. Enough with having diners completely subsidize wages.

[Deleted]

This quote is my last opinion for the thread as a poster. 

Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble.

Joseph Campbell

[mmhmm]

Oct 29, 2013 12:36:39 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

I know I'm not interested in someone else's sexual proclivities and would find no value in asking someone if they were gay. I'm completely baffled why anyone would.

So I know which friend to take clothes shopping with me if I don't want to look like a schlub, duh.

ROFL!  Well, there is that aspect, isn't there?

I have a dear friend in England who's gay.  He always came to me bearing his latest copy of Gentleman's Weekly.  I was to help him evaluate whether, or not, a given piece of clothing was "him".  We had such fun together, dishing over the magazine.

[Deleted]

Oct 29, 2013 11:52:14 GMT -5 The Captain said:

We all know trolls exist on the internet.

Has anyone considered that fact that they exist in real life as well?

I see this note as a tool to stir up predictable hatred against Christians, and you know what?

It seems to be working very well.

Umm yes, perhaps they were not Christians at all, just cheap Scottish Wiccans.

[steff]

As far as being able to know someone is gay just by looking at them....

My youngest brother is gay, but you would never know by looks.  He doesn't have the perceived gay mannerisms that bigots look for to label him 'gay'.  He works in a warehouse with a bunch of other guys and unless he tells them, they would never have a clue.


As far as Christians & gays....

My gramma is UBER religious.  A God fearing/Jesus loving Southern Baptist.  Everything about her religion is anti-gay.  To the point that when friends of her found out their son was gay, they tried to "pray the gay away" with force.  The church, including his parents & even my gramma staged interventions & pray sessions with him.  The young man committed suicide. 

My gramma said at that point she understood that being gay wasn't so bad.  That having your gay son alive was more important.  The family of the young man was so devastated & the church was of no help after his death.  In fact, they were told "it was for the best".  My gramma was so close to his family that she was also devastated thru their loss.  So when my brother came out, she was kind, loving & absolutely accepted him & his partner.  She now believes that having a gay grandson is better than having a "saved" dead gay grandson.   She also now believes that it's not a choice.  Her words now are "God makes no mistakes, so B is made in God's image like the rest of us." 

She knows it goes against what her religion teaches.  But she now strongly believes that teaching is wrong. 

[Deleted]

Oct 29, 2013 13:03:29 GMT -5 steff said:

As far as being able to know someone is gay just by looking at them....

My youngest brother is gay, but you would never know by looks.  He doesn't have the perceived gay mannerisms that bigots look for to label him 'gay'.  He works in a warehouse with a bunch of other guys and unless he tells them, they would never have a clue.


As far as Christians & gays....

My gramma is UBER religious.  A God fearing/Jesus loving Southern Baptist.  Everything about her religion is anti-gay.  To the point that when friends of her found out their son was gay, they tried to "pray the gay away" with force.  The church, including his parents & even my gramma staged interventions & pray sessions with him.  The young man committed suicide. 

My gramma said at that point she understood that being gay wasn't so bad.  That having your gay son alive was more important.  The family of the young man was so devastated & the church was of no help after his death.  In fact, they were told "it was for the best".  My gramma was so close to his family that she was also devastated thru their loss.  So when my brother came out, she was kind, loving & absolutely accepted him & his partner.  She now believes that having a gay grandson is better than having a "saved" dead gay grandson.   She also now believes that it's not a choice.  Her words now are "God makes no mistakes, so B is made in God's image like the rest of us." 

She knows it goes against what her religion teaches.  But she now strongly believes that teaching is wrong. 

I work with gay people of both genders and I have gay people in my family. Most of the time it is quite obvious, but not always.
As far as religion, I have no time for it but I do believe in the positive form of the golden rule.

[steff]

Oct 29, 2013 13:06:05 GMT -5 @joey said:

Oct 29, 2013 13:03:29 GMT -5 steff said:

As far as being able to know someone is gay just by looking at them....

My youngest brother is gay, but you would never know by looks.  He doesn't have the perceived gay mannerisms that bigots look for to label him 'gay'.  He works in a warehouse with a bunch of other guys and unless he tells them, they would never have a clue.


As far as Christians & gays....

My gramma is UBER religious.  A God fearing/Jesus loving Southern Baptist.  Everything about her religion is anti-gay.  To the point that when friends of her found out their son was gay, they tried to "pray the gay away" with force.  The church, including his parents & even my gramma staged interventions & pray sessions with him.  The young man committed suicide. 

My gramma said at that point she understood that being gay wasn't so bad.  That having your gay son alive was more important.  The family of the young man was so devastated & the church was of no help after his death.  In fact, they were told "it was for the best".  My gramma was so close to his family that she was also devastated thru their loss.  So when my brother came out, she was kind, loving & absolutely accepted him & his partner.  She now believes that having a gay grandson is better than having a "saved" dead gay grandson.   She also now believes that it's not a choice.  Her words now are "God makes no mistakes, so B is made in God's image like the rest of us." 

She knows it goes against what her religion teaches.  But she now strongly believes that teaching is wrong. 

I work with gay people of both genders and I have gay people in my family. Most of the time it is quite obvious, but not always.
As far as religion, I have no time for it but I do believe in the positive form of the golden rule.

Now I'll admit that most of the friends that I've met of my brother's it's obvious with the majority of them.  And when my brother is with them, I can see some of the mannerisms showing.  But for the most part, if you are just meeting him, you would never know. 

[Deleted]

I kinda wish we would see it as a choice, and respect people's right to choose who they love.

It just seems cleaner that way to me, by which I mean not that being born gay makes you somehow 'unclean' but that defending the gay lifestyle as being something that the gay person can't help leaves open lines of attack against the lifestyle that respect for it as a choice would not.

A heroin addict, arguably, cannot help their addiction or the things they do to feed their addiction. We stage interventions to help our loved one overcome their addiction, helping them where they cannot help themselves. The "born this way" frame allows for the same kind of approach to homosexuals, who become victims of their own sexuality rather than victorious claimants of it.

The idea that I am a 'victim' of my whiteness, maleness, straightness, Englishness, whatever, is not only nonsensical but offensive. But anything of mine that I feel is beyond my power to control, that others might denigrate, makes me a victim. I'd prefer, all things being equal, to have chosen myself.

Kudos to your gramma, though, steff.

[Sum Dum Gai]

Wait, being born gay makes you unclean, but choosing to be gay wouldn't?  What kind of twisted logic is that?

[mmhmm]

Oct 29, 2013 13:10:02 GMT -5 @thatmojoguy said:

I kinda wish we would see it as a choice, and respect people's right to choose who they love.

It just seems cleaner that way to me, by which I mean not that being born gay makes you somehow 'unclean' but that defending the gay lifestyle as being something that the gay person can't help leaves open lines of attack against the lifestyle that respect for it as a choice would not.

A heroin addict, arguably, cannot help their addiction or the things they do to feed their addiction. We stage interventions to help our loved one overcome their addiction, helping them where they cannot help themselves. The "born this way" frame allows for the same kind of approach to homosexuals, who become victims of their own sexuality rather than victorious claimants of it.

The idea that I am a 'victim' of my whiteness, maleness, straightness, Englishness, whatever, is not only nonsensical but offensive. But anything of mine that I feel is beyond my power to control, that others might denigrate, makes me a victim. I'd prefer, all things being equal, to have chosen myself.

Kudos to your gramma, though, steff.

Since people are, indeed, born gay, it doesn't make any difference whether some others might find it better to see being gay as a choice.  Those born gay are the ones to make that determination and most will tell you choice doesn't have anything to do with it.  As far as "gay lifestyle" issues are concerned, the lifestyle of one individual isn't, necessarily, the lifestyle of another.  That applies to gay people as much as to straight people, bisexual people, or transgendered people.  Some identify the more outrageous behaviors of some gay people as being the "gay lifestyle".  Nothing could be further from the truth.  Most gay people I know eschew that sort of thing.  They're just like everyone else.  They're people, and they don't consider themselves victims.

[mmhmm]

Oct 29, 2013 13:09:17 GMT -5 steff said:

Oct 29, 2013 13:06:05 GMT -5 @joey said:

I work with gay people of both genders and I have gay people in my family. Most of the time it is quite obvious, but not always.
As far as religion, I have no time for it but I do believe in the positive form of the golden rule.

Now I'll admit that most of the friends that I've met of my brother's it's obvious with the majority of them.  And when my brother is with them, I can see some of the mannerisms showing.  But for the most part, if you are just meeting him, you would never know. 

You'd never know my British friend is gay unless he decided to tell you.  The same goes for his partner.  I've known for many years my friend was gay, but I was the only one of his co-workers who knew.  He told my husband and I, but we shared it with nobody.  It was nobody else's business.  When he comes here to visit, he's one of our family.  Now, the whole family is aware but only because he and his partner chose to share it with them.  Fortunately, my family is accepting of all people as long as those people don't give them good reason not to be. Even my daughter's husband, about whom we had some concern because of the way he'd been raised, thoroughly enjoys our time together when my friend and his partner visit.  He really likes both guys.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Oct 29, 2013 13:12:12 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

Wait, being born gay makes you unclean, but choosing to be gay wouldn't?  What kind of twisted logic is that?

A person doesn't "choose" to be gay. They're either born gay, or they're not.

[zibazinski]

That's it exactly. The gay people I know are just like everyone else. I wouldn't know unless they told me. Now someone flamboyant, that's another story but most gay people seem to be like everyone else. I don't care if you're having sex with a goat, as long as it isn't my goat.

[Deleted]

Oct 29, 2013 13:12:12 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

Wait, being born gay makes you unclean, but choosing to be gay wouldn't?  What kind of twisted logic is that?

LOL, I specifically said I didn't mean "unclean" that way, for that reason.

I mean that a "clean" defense of homosexuality as an equally valid alternative to heterosexuality ought to avoid the possibility that you can still think of it as something wrong that needs to be righted. Saying someone is "born that way" doesn't in itself mean that they should be "left that way," or that their being "that way" should be condoned by society. A lot of people have been researching this, but I don't think any conclusive evidence has emerged of the biological marker that distinguishes a straight man from a gay man (cutely, what evidence is put forth for the biological validity of the "born this way" hypothesis often dismisses lesbianism and bisexuality as "lifestyle choices" - bisexuality, especially, creates problems for the "born this way" brigade philosophically). Much stronger evidence indicates criminal sociopaths are "born that way," but nobody seriously suggests this excuses their activities. In the same way, I could hypothetically accept that a lesbian was "born that way," and still believe she would burn in Hell for her innate wickedness unless I saved her. This would get me in trouble with a lot of lesbians.

From my perspective, the whole "is he born gay or made gay" debate is irrelevant. He is gay. I need no further information. The question before me is: does his being gay make a difference to me? As noted above, it might, if I'm gay too. Otherwise, no. I respect his right to be what he is, as long as it does me no harm and go on. That seems a 'cleaner' resolution than asserting baselessly that he is how he is for this or that reason, without thereby settling the question of if he should be.

[Sum Dum Gai]

A person doesn't "choose" to be gay. They're either born gay, or they're not.

I realize that, I was responding to Mojo's comment right above mine.

[Sum Dum Gai]

I don't have religious baggage, so I don't care whether gay people should be "fixed" or wonder what will happen to them in the after life.  What happens between consenting adults is none of my business, and I rather doubt god cares much either.

[Deleted]

Oct 29, 2013 13:26:09 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

Oct 29, 2013 13:12:12 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

Wait, being born gay makes you unclean, but choosing to be gay wouldn't?  What kind of twisted logic is that?

A person doesn't "choose" to be gay. They're either born gay, or they're not.

yes, but a person could choose to be gay, too.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

I know, Dark -I should have mentioned that - it was easier to quote your post and highlight the part I was responding to since Mojo's post was a lot of text.