Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2013 14:16:19 GMT -5
At what point did I find myself attracted to girls? About seven, I think. Also the time I became aware of a paraphiliac attraction.
At what point did I rule out being attracted to guys? Not yet.
At what point did questions of attraction become moot? Eleven years ago, when I pledged sexual constancy to my wife.
I wasn't a very sexually active toddler. I venture to suggest none of us were, and any of us who may have been wouldn't claim to have been that way by inclination. That's kind of my point, here.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2013 14:17:17 GMT -5
when I pledged sexual constancy to my wife. You smooth devil, you. |
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Oct 29, 2013 14:18:00 GMT -5
Children can't acquiesce in sexual relationships... But that has absolutely NOTHING to do with a child recognizing his or her basic orientation at a very early age. Neither gay NOR straight children are permitted by our culture to consent to a sexual relationship. It is entirely possible (and expected) for children of either orientation (or somewhere along a continuum) to stay virgin/celibate until they feel old enough or mature enough (or their hormones kick in) to want to experiment with their sexuality. So I don't get your point. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2013 14:21:42 GMT -5
Right, I agree. So basing your defence of a lifestyle on the strictly unscientific assertion that its adherents were 'born that way' is subjecting it unnecessarily to the vicissitudes of that 'grey area.'
The putative opponent of homosexual unions just has to do a properly scientific peer-reviewed study on the impact of enforced homosexuality in long-term incarcerated populations on future sexual partner selection post-incarceration and he has grist to his mill. When in fact, any formerly straight homosexuals he finds there are just as legitimate as the ones who just knew for as long as they could remember that they wanted to be with other men.
The law that recognizes the right and responsibility of loving who you choose is better for society than the law that just says do as you feel. That's my point.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2013 14:25:35 GMT -5
Children can't acquiesce in sexual relationships... But that has absolutely NOTHING to do with a child recognizing his or her basic orientation at a very early age. Neither gay NOR straight children are permitted by our culture to consent to a sexual relationship. It is entirely possible (and expected) for children of either orientation (or somewhere along a continuum) to stay virgin/celibate until they feel old enough or mature enough (or their hormones kick in) to want to experiment with their sexuality. So I don't get your point. Exactly a gay child will know because he watches Glee, listens to Barry Manailow, joins ballet and says things like "you look marvelous in that." |
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 29, 2013 14:26:49 GMT -5
Children can't acquiesce in sexual relationships... Nobody said that. You're extrapolating information that isn't there. Children can, and do, know they're different. They know they're attracted to different things, and in different ways, than other children. For crying out tears, it's not all about sex! |
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 29, 2013 14:29:44 GMT -5
Until something better comes along, Mojo, I'll take the words of experience over the words of assumption without experience. It's served me well for 71 years.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Oct 29, 2013 14:29:46 GMT -5
Children can't acquiesce in sexual relationships... Nobody said that. You're extrapolating information that isn't there. Children can, and do, know they're different. They know they're attracted to different things, and in different ways, than other children. For crying out tears, it's not all about sex! Agreed! This is about one's basic orientation, NOT about one's sexual behavior(s) (or lack thereof). Two VERY different things. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2013 14:32:18 GMT -5
Advocatum diaboli, as per usual:
If I, as a hypothetical child, can recognize that I am attracted to somebody, why can't I act on my self-recognized attraction? If they're attracted to me too, doesn't that validate me?
And yes I know, it's monstrous, etc. Believe me, I'm no fan of NAMBLA. But you get this stuff up in front of a judge and it's dangerous. They don't look at things in the real world. If you establish as a matter of settled fact that a four year old knows he's gay, and the guy who's groomed him for three years stands up proudly in a court of law and cites legal precedent on gay unions, you're in really sick territory where the judge may have no option but to rule unconstitutional laws protecting our children.
And beyond that - if the child feels from the age of four that he's in a loving homosexual union, as bizarre and disgusting as that might be to the rest of us, do we have the moral right to tell him he is wrong? I feel like we do, but the only way I can feel that way is to invalidate his opinion on the grounds he's too young to understand sexuality as a prepubescent.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2013 14:33:15 GMT -5
Actually, sexual preference really is all about sex.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Oct 29, 2013 14:35:48 GMT -5
Actually, sexual preference really is all about sex. As long as we're talking semantics, yes. But one's basic sexual orientation is not. Semantics. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2013 14:38:50 GMT -5
Advocatum diaboli, as per usual: If I, as a hypothetical child, can recognize that I am attracted to somebody, why can't I act on my self-recognized attraction? If they're attracted to me too, doesn't that validate me? And yes I know, it's monstrous, etc. Believe me, I'm no fan of NAMBLA. But you get this stuff up in front of a judge and it's dangerous. They don't look at things in the real world. If you establish as a matter of settled fact that a four year old knows he's gay, and the guy who's groomed him for three years stands up proudly in a court of law and cites legal precedent on gay unions, you're in really sick territory where the judge may have no option but to rule unconstitutional laws protecting our children. And beyond that - if the child feels from the age of four that he's in a loving homosexual union, as bizarre and disgusting as that might be to the rest of us, do we have the moral right to tell him he is wrong? I feel like we do, but the only way I can feel that way is to invalidate his opinion on the grounds he's too young to understand sexuality as a prepubescent. You can love anyone you want.... as long as it is someone we tell you you can love. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2013 14:40:33 GMT -5
Indulge me. Let's say I have a compelling erotic attraction to the Eiffel Tower, like Erika LaBrie of California. I'm not going to ask if I was born attracted to a thing I only visited in 2004, which is when Erika, now officially Erika Eiffel, was smitten.
I am going to ask what the nonsexual component of my orientation towards this, and my 20-year dalliance with the Berlin Wall, might be. And whether that was innate.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2013 14:41:16 GMT -5
You are so feeding the troll, Archie.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2013 14:41:31 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2013 14:42:59 GMT -5
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 29, 2013 14:47:12 GMT -5
Okay, but leave animals, children, and dead people alone, no matter what your sexual preferences are.  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2013 14:48:06 GMT -5
Children can't acquiesce in sexual relationships... Nobody said that. You're extrapolating information that isn't there. Children can, and do, know they're different. They know they're attracted to different things, and in different ways, than other children. For crying out tears, it's not all about sex! Actually homo sexuality is all about sex. I know some extremely straight men that are very effeminate and some gay men that are very macho. Sexuality is about who you want to have sex with. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2013 14:48:49 GMT -5
I keep trying to start a Sadomasochism, Bestiality, and Necrophilia fanpage on Facebook...
... but I feel like I'm just flogging a dead horse.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2013 14:50:31 GMT -5
Exactly. It's hard to imagine more divergent sexual expressions than butch and femme, but they're both oriented the same way.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2013 14:53:10 GMT -5
I keep trying to start a Sadomasochism, Bestiality, and Necrophilia fanpage on Facebook... ... but I feel like I'm just flogging a dead horse. ewwwwwwww |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2013 14:54:27 GMT -5
I wear noseplugs. I'm not a savage.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 29, 2013 14:54:33 GMT -5
Who in the Seven Halls of Hell has said anything about "do as you feel" being a desirable attitude, Mojo? I don't recall reading that post. We're tilting at ideas that haven't been presented, I think.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2013 14:56:23 GMT -5
Can we get back to the cheap Scottish Wiccans please.  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2013 14:57:40 GMT -5
If you see a meaningful distinction between that and "be who you were born to be," that's a product of your greater experience. I can't.
The important thing is, we all want gay people to be happy. Screw the fundies.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 29, 2013 14:58:13 GMT -5
Because you, as a child, do not yet have adequate brain development to make that decision unequivocally, Mojo. If you're attracted at a young age to another person, regardless of genders, no problem is presented unless, and until, a sexual aspect rears its head. It's at that time that the lack of brain development becomes an issue. Up until that time, the attraction is benign, and harmless, since no physical, sexual connection has been made.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2013 14:58:35 GMT -5
Can we get back to the cheap Scottish Wiccans please. They couldn't help it. They really were born Scottish. |
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Oct 29, 2013 14:59:43 GMT -5
Can we get back to the cheap Scottish Wiccans please. LOL!!! I didn't have my glasses on and I first read that as "cheap Scottish Whiskey". I thought.....finally! Something I can discuss intelligently! |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2013 14:59:44 GMT -5
Can we get back to the cheap Scottish Wiccans please. They couldn't help it. They really were born Scottish. Dayum, that is exactly where I was going with this!  |
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Oct 29, 2013 14:59:47 GMT -5
And there are also straight or gay people who are celibate or lack the desire for the act of physical sex.
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