zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 22, 2013 14:14:32 GMT -5
I don't think so. I've posted on P and M and there always seems to be reason there. If you've ACTUALLY taken the classes, they tell you what to do including how not to get shot by the cops. If you're protecting your home and have called the cops, you tell them where you are and what you're wearing and that you are armed. We were even told to have a spare key to throw to the police if you're in a two story home. On a large board that was easy to see in the dark. The classes give you all kinds of good tips that you hope to remember in a tight situation. We have an alarm system. That window of time gives me time to collect my gun, my bedroom door is always locked at night, and open the window and get out, if I choose to. Depending on situation, I have choices to make.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Oct 22, 2013 14:32:07 GMT -5
I don't think so. I've posted on P and M and there always seems to be reason there. If you've ACTUALLY taken the classes, they tell you what to do including how not to get shot by the cops. If you're protecting your home and have called the cops, you tell them where you are and what you're wearing and that you are armed. We were even told to have a spare key to throw to the police if you're in a two story home. On a large board that was easy to see in the dark. The classes give you all kinds of good tips that you hope to remember in a tight situation. We have an alarm system. That window of time gives me time to collect my gun, my bedroom door is always locked at night, and open the window and get out, if I choose to. Depending on situation, I have choices to make. Even if you are in your own home, it is preferable to retreat. My instructor says no stuff is worth the cost of what defending yourself in court would cost, so only use your gun as a last resort. We have guns locked up in 3 different locations in this house so any place I'd retreat there is a gun available. Unfortunately, not always a phone and that we need to change. Instructions we were given were that in a break in, call 911 and LEAVE THE PHONE LINE OPEN, retreat to bedroom (most likely upstairs) and arm yourself.
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spartan7886
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Post by spartan7886 on Oct 22, 2013 14:51:27 GMT -5
No questions, no thought, just hit the deck. I've never been in a situation with an "active shooter", but I've been between a guy with a gun and his target on a crowded street, and that's what I did. He may not have been aiming at the bystanders, but he did manage to hit somebody with all 8 bullets. Granted, he hit 8 different people, and he was only aiming at one.
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Sam_2.0
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Post by Sam_2.0 on Oct 22, 2013 15:16:59 GMT -5
I don't think so. I've posted on P and M and there always seems to be reason there. If you've ACTUALLY taken the classes, they tell you what to do including how not to get shot by the cops. If you're protecting your home and have called the cops, you tell them where you are and what you're wearing and that you are armed. We were even told to have a spare key to throw to the police if you're in a two story home. On a large board that was easy to see in the dark. The classes give you all kinds of good tips that you hope to remember in a tight situation. We have an alarm system. That window of time gives me time to collect my gun, my bedroom door is always locked at night, and open the window and get out, if I choose to. Depending on situation, I have choices to make. Even if you are in your own home, it is preferable to retreat. My instructor says no stuff is worth the cost of what defending yourself in court would cost, so only use your gun as a last resort. We have guns locked up in 3 different locations in this house so any place I'd retreat there is a gun available. Unfortunately, not always a phone and that we need to change. Instructions we were given were that in a break in, call 911 and LEAVE THE PHONE LINE OPEN, retreat to bedroom (most likely upstairs) and arm yourself. I would be retreating to a room with a door I could lock & hopefully barricade, with a window to hop out of and high-tail it to the neighbor's house. A blessing of living in a 1 story house.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 22, 2013 15:40:08 GMT -5
True that. I would do the same if possible. But not always possible. We also have guns stashed around the house in various spots, even the bathrooms, funny enough! But bedroom is locked at night so that's a given. Yup, I can hop right out that bedroom window if necessary.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Oct 22, 2013 15:46:34 GMT -5
My office does not make for an easy escape. Though I'm "1st story", there is a fall to the basement level. It is very unlikely I could jump to the sidewalk, though doing so and taking some injuries would be far preferable to being shot.
If it happened at the office, it would be challenging to know where exactly the shooter was. We have very very long halls. If the shooter was at the other end, I could get to an exit in time. If the shooter is on the short end blocking my exit, then I don't have many options. I know the building somewhat. If I can get to the stairwell, I have some options. I'd probably go up and over, as that is the most confusing way and would help me lose the shooter.
Anywhere else, who the heck knows. If we are on a commuter train and someone opens fire, then it is what it is. Its unlikely that we could get a door open or a window broken, and get out of it, unless we are at the end of a car (and we seldom are).
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 22, 2013 16:11:48 GMT -5
I would think in the vast majority of home intrusions, the intruder is interested in your stuff, not you. I wouldn't think any posession would be worth defending yourself in court over. Isn't that covered under homeowner's insurance anyway? I imagine if someone is intruding your home to inflict harm upon you, there is a very specific reason, and it's likely someone you know and are/were close to. I would imagine someone entering some random person's home to hurt or kill them is pretty rare.
I would imagine most murders are either related to drug/gang violence, or related to deep personal issues between the victem and the murderer. So, in theory, if you aren't involved in gangs or drugs, and your spouse or other family members or exes aren't out to kill you, you probably wouldn't need a lethal weapon to protect yourself.
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The Fonz
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Post by The Fonz on Oct 22, 2013 16:16:33 GMT -5
As a former military member who does not own a gun I would first take cover, assess the situation, and escape if possible. If I felt that there was any possible way I could overtake the gunman I would certainly try it, but only if I felt that more people people would be injured or killed by my inaction.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 22, 2013 16:20:38 GMT -5
Perhaps that is how it used to be but no longer. It would depend on the circumstances what I would do.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2013 16:28:21 GMT -5
I would think in the vast majority of home intrusions, the intruder is interested in your stuff, not you. I wouldn't think any posession would be worth defending yourself in court over. Isn't that covered under homeowner's insurance anyway? I imagine if someone is intruding your home to inflict harm upon you, there is a very specific reason, and it's likely someone you know and are/were close to. I would imagine someone entering some random person's home to hurt or kill them is pretty rare. It's rare that, but it happens. It happened to a close relative of mine that lives in an upper middle class neighborhood. She woke up in the middle of the night and had no lights, her house phone was dead, and there was a man at her front door. She set the house alarm off even though she'd realized her phone wasn't working and he took off running. When the police arrived, they discovered that the guy had cut her power and cut her phone line. She doesn't have any possessions worth doing all that for, we could only come up with him being after her. A petite, attractive female living alone. Very scary! She was a wreck for a while after that and didn't spend the night at her home for a few weeks. I would assume that anyone coming into my house while I'm there, means to harm me. Whatever I do, it would be to protect myself, not my possessions.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Oct 22, 2013 16:38:11 GMT -5
I would think in the vast majority of home intrusions, the intruder is interested in your stuff, not you. I wouldn't think any posession would be worth defending yourself in court over. Isn't that covered under homeowner's insurance anyway? I imagine if someone is intruding your home to inflict harm upon you, there is a very specific reason, and it's likely someone you know and are/were close to. I would imagine someone entering some random person's home to hurt or kill them is pretty rare.
I won't assume anything. While retreating is the preferable response, it is not unheard of for the intruder to go after the person.
For instance, last year I had thousands of $$ of narcotics in my possession. Someone who knew this could have a field day and believe me, I would defend my narcotics because there was a period of time where my life was run by when I could dose myself next.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2013 16:42:30 GMT -5
I would think in the vast majority of home intrusions, the intruder is interested in your stuff, not you. I wouldn't think any posession would be worth defending yourself in court over. Isn't that covered under homeowner's insurance anyway? I imagine if someone is intruding your home to inflict harm upon you, there is a very specific reason, and it's likely someone you know and are/were close to. I would imagine someone entering some random person's home to hurt or kill them is pretty rare.I won't assume anything. While retreating is the preferable response, it is not unheard of for the intruder to go after the person. For instance, last year I had thousands of $$ of narcotics in my possession. Someone who knew this could have a field day and believe me, I would defend my narcotics because there was a period of time where my life was run by when I could dose myself next. We had a lot of home invasions in the suburbs for a while. The were after stuff, but they came in while people were home and they weren't very nice to those people.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Oct 22, 2013 17:02:05 GMT -5
I couldn't shoot straight if the life of man kind depended on it.
Where I am from in 9th-10th grade we had military training, the whole thingy, along with shooting a rifle, blah blah blah. To get a half way decent grade I cheated every time, I would punch holes in the target thingy. I think teacher knew, but obviously didn't care enough
I have no idea what I would do if faced with a shooter. Pooping my pants sounds like a realistic option. Other than that....no clue.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Oct 22, 2013 17:14:49 GMT -5
I would think in the vast majority of home intrusions, the intruder is interested in your stuff, not you. I wouldn't think any posession would be worth defending yourself in court over. Isn't that covered under homeowner's insurance anyway? I imagine if someone is intruding your home to inflict harm upon you, there is a very specific reason, and it's likely someone you know and are/were close to. I would imagine someone entering some random person's home to hurt or kill them is pretty rare.I won't assume anything. While retreating is the preferable response, it is not unheard of for the intruder to go after the person. For instance, last year I had thousands of $$ of narcotics in my possession. Someone who knew this could have a field day and believe me, I would defend my narcotics because there was a period of time where my life was run by when I could dose myself next. We had a lot of home invasions in the suburbs for a while. The were after stuff, but they came in while people were home and they weren't very nice to those people. This was my fear. After each surgery, I felt like was a sitting duck with lots of oxy on hand. We live in a fairly isolated area and TD was gone all day.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 22, 2013 17:44:02 GMT -5
Milee, the SWAT team trains with civilians? I didn't realize that was the case. No, generally active SWAT does not train with civilians unless there's a special situation (I can think of a few where medical non-SWAT or specialty tactical guys were involved in specific training.) I probably wasn't stating it clearly but in the training and sport that DH and oldest son do, there are several guys who are ex-SWAT, so have had extensive SWAT type training. One of my favorite clients when I was a business operations consultant was a really interesting guy who was an Emergency Med Doc by training but regularly was called on SWAT operations when they needed medical help. He'd even been shot in the leg once. None of us could believe it when he was appointed Surgeon General because he was such an, um, independent personality. He didn't last long in that political job and I wonder what he's doing now. Probably back with SWAT or something else really interesting. Anyway, no SWAT does not normally train with civilians.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 22, 2013 17:47:13 GMT -5
I would think in the vast majority of home intrusions, the intruder is interested in your stuff, not you. I wouldn't think any posession would be worth defending yourself in court over. Isn't that covered under homeowner's insurance anyway? I imagine if someone is intruding your home to inflict harm upon you, there is a very specific reason, and it's likely someone you know and are/were close to. I would imagine someone entering some random person's home to hurt or kill them is pretty rare.
I would imagine most murders are either related to drug/gang violence, or related to deep personal issues between the victem and the murderer. So, in theory, if you aren't involved in gangs or drugs, and your spouse or other family members or exes aren't out to kill you, you probably wouldn't need a lethal weapon to protect yourself. I'm sure for men this is true. Much less so for women. It's not quite as rare to have break ins and intrusions in women's homes where the target is the person, not the stuff.
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deantrip
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Post by deantrip on Oct 22, 2013 21:15:27 GMT -5
I also concealed carry and have been instructed and trained by both civilian and military instructors. If I had the time (not primary target), I would get the hell out of dodge, retreat to a safe place and assess the situation defensively. If I wasn't armed, then fighting would be the last response if there was no retreat. That is if I were by myself. The situation changes and is fluid.
Remember, if you duck, go to your left as well if you are in an open area, as most people are right handed and if they jerk the trigger (high adrenaline for people not trained will cause them to jerk the trigger) it will tend to pull the shot down and to their left (your right).
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Oct 22, 2013 22:18:58 GMT -5
Now you're all freaking me out. I think I'll go write some letters to both DSs just in case something ever happens to me. IF there is ever an active shooting incident in the greater Boston area and I fall off the boards, hunt my DH down and tell my kids what you've gleaned about me from the boards. I'll do the same for you. Deal?
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Oct 22, 2013 22:24:25 GMT -5
I think Swamp and Whoisjohngalt had the most likely answer for me: crap your pants and get the heck out of Dodge. And if I am lucky, the only first aid I would need would be a clean pair of pants. Pretty please...
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Sam_2.0
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Post by Sam_2.0 on Oct 23, 2013 9:24:28 GMT -5
I would think in the vast majority of home intrusions, the intruder is interested in your stuff, not you. I wouldn't think any posession would be worth defending yourself in court over. Isn't that covered under homeowner's insurance anyway? I imagine if someone is intruding your home to inflict harm upon you, there is a very specific reason, and it's likely someone you know and are/were close to. I would imagine someone entering some random person's home to hurt or kill them is pretty rare. It's rare that, but it happens. It happened to a close relative of mine that lives in an upper middle class neighborhood. She woke up in the middle of the night and had no lights, her house phone was dead, and there was a man at her front door. She set the house alarm off even though she'd realized her phone wasn't working and he took off running. When the police arrived, they discovered that the guy had cut her power and cut her phone line. She doesn't have any possessions worth doing all that for, we could only come up with him being after her. A petite, attractive female living alone. Very scary! She was a wreck for a while after that and didn't spend the night at her home for a few weeks. I would assume that anyone coming into my house while I'm there, means to harm me. Whatever I do, it would be to protect myself, not my possessions. Three years ago this happened to my sister. The guy didn't know her husband was home. Sis had been sleeping on the couch with their sick baby, guy had been standing outside the window watching my sister & her daughter for awhile. He broke in, sis grabbed the baby and ran screaming down the hallway. Her H woke up and went charging out, running into sis in the hallway. The guy heard my BIL and high-tailed it out of the house. Police never caught him. My sister never slept in that house again, they moved out the next weekend. And this place is 2 blocks away from where I live now.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Oct 23, 2013 10:02:16 GMT -5
I live in a not so great neighborhood, but most crime (at least when we bought, I'm not willing to look it up until after we sell) is against property and not people.
Last night some guy was knocking on our front door well after night fall, and (probably unrelated but still freaked me out) about a half hour later there was a chopper and sirens circling the neighborhood for another 1/2 hour. Dh had left so there was only 1 car in the driveway which is something that I'm always a little nervous about. It's about the only time I'm glad we still have 3 dogs with personality issues.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Oct 25, 2013 11:13:37 GMT -5
2. Why do incidents of active shooters seem to be on the rise? I'm not sure it's due to lack of gun control, since our country has always had a gun culture. Do you think it's due to media reporting putting ideas in peoples' heads? A reflection of the mental healthcare system in our country? What do you think causes someone to have such a disregard for the lives of others?
I agree with your thoughts here. The media is culpable. Especially when it comes to kids. I don't think many of the kids would come up with the idea of shooting up a school on their own. The fact that these incidents get lots of media attention and that the media goies into a lot of detail makes the problem worse. Just like when the local newspaper was running how to turn stolen copper into cash stories, which were followed by a sudden increase in stolen copper crimes, which were then reported on by the paper.
The state of our mental health care system is also an issue. Reports indicate that a significant portion of mass shooting incidents involve people who had been diagnosed with mental problems. Our failure to better provide for the mental health needs of our population leaves potentially dangerous individuals without adequate supervision and with access to things such as guns. Overall, I don't think guns and mentally unstable go well together.
Then, you've got to consider the extremely poor judgement exhibited by some relatives of some of the shooters. Sandy Hook, in particular, comes to mind. Why would a parent whose child had significant diagnosed mental issues keep any kind of weapon in the house? Especially semi-automatic weapons?
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Oct 25, 2013 12:42:40 GMT -5
I'm not into guns, but my husband and older son both shoot competitively (Action pistol, PSA, three gun) and even load their own ammunition, so I'm fairly familiar with the genre. They regularly shoot in situations that are designed to simulate live action scenarios (insert eye roll emoticon here) and outside training with the SWAT team, are about as realistic a training as a civilian could get for being in a real life shootout scenario. Even the ex-military guys who are the top champions of the sport miss regularly and the statistics are even worse for people when they're put into a live situation.
So anybody who gets on here and claims that they hold a concealed carry permit and would just stand up and pop the shooter before the shooter killed anybody else is completely and utterly full of doodie. Even Army Rangers, Navy Seals, SWAT guys, etc. with their extensive training and experience regularly miss. Most people, even people who train and practice would be unlikely to be successful in a shoot out situation.
Of course you're going to get some big talkers on this thread who will beat their chest and talk of their plans to save the world with the gun they whip out of their bag, but reality and statistics show that's unlikely. Now where the gun aficionados will have an advantage is in knowledge of the shooter's weapon and vulnerabilities. For example, if you know a certain weapon holds a certain number of rounds and takes X seconds to reload, you know what your window of attack is. Or if you know that a certain weapon is prone to jamming and you hear an unexpected pause, you might be able to reasonably assume that it's jammed and you have a small window in which to make a move. You also would know the expected ranges of accuracy so know what the safer zones are because you know that weapon isn't accurate at that distance. Those would be good advantages.
As for why we're having more shootings, it's hard to tell. Possibly increased media coverage. But there's also the possibility that the mass killings haven't actually increased in likelihood, just that we now have better communication so know about them. Similar to the theory that there's always approximately the same percent of serial killers around, we just now about them now because of the news. But it can and does happen. We had a case just a few months ago where a pissed off bar patron starting shooting other bar patrons. He then went outside looking for more to shoot. He was finally killled by another bar patron who was CC and was apparently a better aim. While I would never say that anyone with a CC could stop a crazed kiiller, if my odds were to be in a situation where shootings occurred, I would much prefer it to be a day when my husband was carrying. I've never shot a gun and like Swamp, would shit my pants, crawl into the fetal position and cry and pray.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 25, 2013 12:51:18 GMT -5
::Have you given thought to how you would respond to an active shooter in a public place? Assuming of course, you are not armed. Would you be one of those people who tries to fight an active shooter? Would you try to talk the shooter down, or hide, or escape? I realize it's hard to "plan" for something like that, and often things come down to random chance. Still, I'm curious if anyone has given thought to the matter.::
I wouldn't try to talk the shooter down. I know that.
I think fight vs try to escape ( I don't think I'd hide, the idea of being found and just executed seems less palatable to me then getting shot trying to escape, even if I'm more likely to live by hiding) probably comes down to my vicinity to the shooter. If the guy in the cubicle next to me starts shooting, I'm probably going to try to take him down. If someone starts shooting on the other side of a football field, and fighting him means running across the football field while he tries to gun me down, I'm going to try to escape.
It also probably depends on what I have available to me for a weapon and what he's got on. I'm not going to Chuck Norris someone in full body armor, but I might go after someone wearing normal clothes. Ditto for what kind of gun he has. I'd probably be more willing to fight someone with a long-barrelled gun if I was relatively close to them already as once you get inside the barrel length you're in a less dangerous spot.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Oct 25, 2013 12:53:33 GMT -5
But it can and does happen. We had a case just a few months ago where a pissed off bar patron starting shooting other bar patrons. He then went outside looking for more to shoot. He was finally killled by another bar patron who was CC and was apparently a better aim.
Interesting. It's illegal to CC a gun in a bar, even a bar in a restaurant. So both the shooter and the other bar patron were illegal.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 25, 2013 13:56:49 GMT -5
I agree with tskeeter. I think the media shares some responsibility. I don't think most kids would get the idea in their heads to go shoot up a school if it wasn't reported as it is. Maybe adults would, I don't know.
And yeah, there usually is something wrong with the shooter's family too. One thing that constantly amazes me is how much many people are in denial.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 25, 2013 13:57:15 GMT -5
Yup, but we do it anyway because people are crazy. I haven't read anyone beating their chest and saying they'd do this and that. No one knows until it happens. I shoot only to protect me and mine, no one else, sorry. Every bullet comes attached to a lawyer.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Oct 25, 2013 14:09:41 GMT -5
And yeah, there usually is something wrong with the shooter's family too. One thing that constantly amazes me is how much many people are in denial.
I'm not sure I agree wholly with this. If you go back and look at some of the past shooters, there does seem to be a decent home life in these families. Parents know that there's something wrong with the kids and are trying to help them, but there really is a limit as to how much you can force an adult child to do.
The one common thread is that most of these shooters seem to be fairly intelligent AND they have the resources to acquire weapons. Parents aren't in denial, but they have no idea as to what their child is capable of doing. Is every parent of a quirky son supposed to think that their son is capable of shooting up a movie theater or an elementary school?
You can Monday morning quarterback all you want, but no one can predict which kid is going to go around the bend and shoot into a crowd.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Oct 25, 2013 14:11:06 GMT -5
Every bullet comes attached to a lawyer.
My shooting instructor says this. He also says that there is likely a child of a lawyer in the daycare facility right behind where you are shooting.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Oct 25, 2013 14:12:28 GMT -5
Yup, but we do it anyway because people are crazy. I haven't read anyone beating their chest and saying they'd do this and that. No one knows until it happens. I shoot only to protect me and mine, no one else, sorry. Every bullet comes attached to a lawyer. The chest beaters are all over on P&M.
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