Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 22, 2013 11:07:13 GMT -5
I want to discuss active shooters. I understand this may be a depressing or otherwise emotional topic for some people, but it seems that rational, analytical discussion of this topic is rare.
A couple of questions/topics:
1. Have you given thought to how you would respond to an active shooter in a public place? Assuming of course, you are not armed. Would you be one of those people who tries to fight an active shooter? Would you try to talk the shooter down, or hide, or escape? I realize it's hard to "plan" for something like that, and often things come down to random chance. Still, I'm curious if anyone has given thought to the matter.
2. Why do incidents of active shooters seem to be on the rise? I'm not sure it's due to lack of gun control, since our country has always had a gun culture. Do you think it's due to media reporting putting ideas in peoples' heads? A reflection of the mental healthcare system in our country? What do you think causes someone to have such a disregard for the lives of others?
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Oct 22, 2013 11:28:07 GMT -5
I take public transportation to work every day (the train station is a death trap if ever there was one!), have to dodge cars, taxis, buses, and bikes on the walk to work (atleast once a year a car/taxi/bus/bike hits and seriously hurts a pedistrian OR crashes into a building hurting someone), and then there's the high rise building I work in (fire/smoke death waiting to happen as well as the possibility of someone coming to work armed). And, yes, there have been smoke/fire deaths in a high rise building in the last 10 years (lots of other ones over the decades - people's responses to death interests me and 'ghost stories' too... so I've got quite a long list of places where people have died unaturally). There was a 'shooter at work' situation a few years ago at one of the buildings I USED to work in... I don't think anyone was hurt - just shots fired. So this stuff happens. So, yeah, I do think about what kind of disaster could befall me during a typical "work day". I'm fairly confident that none of these worries/situations will happen to me though (although getting hit by a bus, car, taxi, bike is possibly more likely to happen than the other disasters). There are 300 MILLION people in America. There are over 6 MILLION people in my 'metro area', there are 3 MILLION people in the City i work in.... the odds are in my favor of a long dull boring life with death by natural causes. FWIW: People have short memories... I don't think 'active shooters' are on the rise - I'm pretty sure people have been taking guns/knives to their place of employment and/or school and killing/hurting people for decades and decades. There was a school bombing back in the 30's? I think on the East Coast. Wish I could remember the specifics for a google search. I think what's different about today is the media attention AND the ability of the shooter to kill/hurt LOTS of people due to them having more fire power weapons or just more guns. As for what I'd do in an 'active shooter' situation - attempt to get away assuming I wasn't in the immediate area, attempt to help people if not in the immediate hail of bullits, etc. not sure what I'd if confronted with the actual shooter and he/she wasn't actively shooting at me. I suspect I might have a "Aw, shit...it was such a beautiful day" kinda reaction. I had that reaction while driving when attempting to stop in time to avoid an accident - thankfully the other driver and I avoided the crash (both stopped or rather skidded to a stop) with inches to spare.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 22, 2013 11:33:13 GMT -5
I'm not into guns, but my husband and older son both shoot competitively (Action pistol, PSA, three gun) and even load their own ammunition, so I'm fairly familiar with the genre. They regularly shoot in situations that are designed to simulate live action scenarios (insert eye roll emoticon here) and outside training with the SWAT team, are about as realistic a training as a civilian could get for being in a real life shootout scenario. Even the ex-military guys who are the top champions of the sport miss regularly and the statistics are even worse for people when they're put into a live situation.
So anybody who gets on here and claims that they hold a concealed carry permit and would just stand up and pop the shooter before the shooter killed anybody else is completely and utterly full of doodie. Even Army Rangers, Navy Seals, SWAT guys, etc. with their extensive training and experience regularly miss. Most people, even people who train and practice would be unlikely to be successful in a shoot out situation.
Of course you're going to get some big talkers on this thread who will beat their chest and talk of their plans to save the world with the gun they whip out of their bag, but reality and statistics show that's unlikely. Now where the gun aficionados will have an advantage is in knowledge of the shooter's weapon and vulnerabilities. For example, if you know a certain weapon holds a certain number of rounds and takes X seconds to reload, you know what your window of attack is. Or if you know that a certain weapon is prone to jamming and you hear an unexpected pause, you might be able to reasonably assume that it's jammed and you have a small window in which to make a move. You also would know the expected ranges of accuracy so know what the safer zones are because you know that weapon isn't accurate at that distance. Those would be good advantages.
As for why we're having more shootings, it's hard to tell. Possibly increased media coverage. But there's also the possibility that the mass killings haven't actually increased in likelihood, just that we now have better communication so know about them. Similar to the theory that there's always approximately the same percent of serial killers around, we just now about them now because of the news.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Oct 22, 2013 11:34:19 GMT -5
MMmmmmmm Burp! Sorry milee. I couldn't control the hunger...
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Oct 22, 2013 11:35:26 GMT -5
I work at a school, so yes (sadly) we've had training in how to handle ourselves in such a situation.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Oct 22, 2013 11:38:10 GMT -5
I would probably crap myself and run away.
Do we actually have more shootings, or do we just hear about them? If we do have more, I think it's partially copycats, and the deinstitutionalization of the mentally ill.
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constanz22
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Post by constanz22 on Oct 22, 2013 11:38:57 GMT -5
2. Why do incidents of active shooters seem to be on the rise?
The serious reduction in mental health treatment and services. We are going to see even more of an increase in these types of incidents with what is happening all over the country, but ESPECIALLY here in NY state. There are also extremely high rates of homicidal ideation that is linked to some of the new, overprescribed psychotropic medications.
I'm not sure it's due to lack of gun control, since our country has always had a gun culture. I think it would be an interesting "study" of what the gun laws are in the states where many of these shootings have occured and whether some could/would have been prevented if people around at the time were legally armed. I live in PA, which is VERY gun friendly. I bought a hand gun in July, have a CC permit so technically I can carry and be armed at any time IN PA. However, I work in NY, and live on the border of the 2 states. I can not EVER, under any circumstance carry my weapon into NY. It took me less than 48 hours to get my CC permit. Friends who live in NY say it takes 9-12 months.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Oct 22, 2013 11:39:01 GMT -5
But if you tell that to a certain few posters, you have no idea what you are talking about.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Oct 22, 2013 11:40:06 GMT -5
I don't think it takes that long in this county, but it is a few months.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Oct 22, 2013 11:44:12 GMT -5
milee- thank you. That was my opinion when Holmes (I think that is his name) open fired at the Batman movie. People kept commenting on facebook about "This is why I have a concealed carry permit, I would have capped him right away and saved all sorts of lives". I would try to explain to them that in the pandemonium of people running around like crazy and the fact that he was wearing bullet proof head to toe that it was more likely they'd have shot innocent people. They wouldn't listen.
Personally- I tell my kid to run and hid, get away from the area as soon as possible. Heroes are great and all but I'd rather my kid be a safe.
Myself- I'd run and hid and try to help people from a safe distance from the shooter.
There was an incident when the German kids were here for their 3 weeks. One of the kids posed with a shotgun at the local sporting goods store and sent a pic back to his friend in Germany. The friend was showing it to kids at school and a teacher saw it. We nearly had an international incident on our hands. There was serious talk about sending the boy back to Germany immediately and kicking his American counterpart out of the exchange program. Guns are forbidden in Germany and they said that letting that kid handle a gun was the same as them letting our kids do drugs while they are in Germany. Had an emergency meeting in which all of the Americans were asked/told that the Germans were not allowed to handle any weapons while in our homes.
We talked to our GK (German Kid) and he said that his parents were fine with him watching sexually explicit movies, tv, etc. but that they would freak out if he wanted to watch a movie with gun violence like one of the Die Hard movies. Ok with like 9 1/2 weeks but Die Hard would be a no go in his house.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 22, 2013 11:46:32 GMT -5
Milee, the SWAT team trains with civilians? I didn't realize that was the case.
Anyway, I agree with you that in real life combat, missing is quite common. I've seen the same statistics, and in real life combat, the ratio of shots fired to actual hits is pretty small. I agree that the idea that someone with a CC permit will whip out their gun from their bag or coat pocket and cap the shooter and be hailed a hero is not realistic.
Perhaps you are right, that the incidence of active shooters has not increased, just our 24 hour news cycle can give one that impression.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 22, 2013 11:52:24 GMT -5
As for what I'd do, it's hard to say without knowing the specifics of the situation. In general though, I'd probably either go into cover if it was nearby, or get down if there wasn't. And try to evaluate my options of either escaping or hiding. I likely wouldn't try to be a hero, just try to live. I never understood some of these people who try to be heros. Unless you're protecting someone like your kids, I don't see the point in assulting someone where you are at a serious tactical disadvantage.
However, I would fight as a last resort, like I was cornered in close quarters and I was sure I was going to be fired on. I probably wouldn't succeed, but at that point you have to go down fighting.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Oct 22, 2013 11:59:00 GMT -5
I would do everything I could to block my children then run and hide as soon as possible.
I'm not anti-gun, but neither dh or I will let them in our home and we do have the conversation with family about locking up their guns if they want our kids to come visit. I think that there is a much bigger chance of someone being accidentally shot with guns in the house than one actually protecting us.
Ds preschool is at a local public school and when we went to tour it I couldn't stop myself from imagining Newtown happening there. I know statistically there is almost no chance of something like that happening, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't still worry about it.
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Sam_2.0
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Post by Sam_2.0 on Oct 22, 2013 12:08:01 GMT -5
Rate of gun violence down in the US: www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/05/07/181998015/rate-of-u-s-gun-violence-has-fallen-since-1993-study-saysMy grandpa talks about all kinds of horrible things in the 30's and 40's out in rural America. Dads raping daughters, and then feeding their babies to the pigs when they got pregnant, all kinds of truly heinous things. But back then they didn't have the 5pm news and people generally didn't talk about stuff like that. He keeps saying that things are better now and the only good thing about the "Good Old Days" is that they are gone.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 22, 2013 12:09:39 GMT -5
Just curious, a couple of posters mentioned "helping people" outside of the immediate danger zone. What help do you believe you could provide?
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Sam_2.0
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Post by Sam_2.0 on Oct 22, 2013 12:11:10 GMT -5
Just curious, a couple of posters mentioned "helping people" outside of the immediate danger zone. What help do you believe you could provide? First aid? Not going to lie, though, I would get the hell out of there if I could. Try to take others with me if possible, but I am not hanging around to play hero. In "Fight or Flight" I definitely got the "Flight" response.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 22, 2013 12:16:35 GMT -5
First aide? I don't know about you, but I have no freaking clue how to treat a bullet wound. I've taken first aide training, and they skipped that part. Generally though, when someone is seriously injured, you're better off not moving them. But you have to weigh that against the danger of the shooter.
I'm not sure what I'd do if I came across people who were wounded. There's not much I could do for them, and my lack of medical training might make things worse.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Oct 22, 2013 12:18:20 GMT -5
First aide? I don't know about you, but I have no freaking clue how to treat a bullet wound. I've taken first aide training, and they skipped that part. Generally though, when someone is seriously injured, you're better off not moving them. But you have to weigh that against the danger of the shooter. I'm not sure what I'd do if I came across people who were wounded. There's not much I could do for them, and my lack of medical training might make things worse. If it's an extremity, direct pressure to stop the bleeding. Core or head wound, sorry, can't help.
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resolution
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Post by resolution on Oct 22, 2013 12:23:21 GMT -5
Gun violence overall has gone down, but the narrowly defined "active shooter" incidents have tripled since 2009.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Oct 22, 2013 12:24:33 GMT -5
For Sam: ********************************************************************************************************************** I work in a very public place. I think about where I would take cover/shelter if the need arose. I look for escape routes. These thoughts don't consume me, but I think anyone of us would be stupid not to at least have a rough plan in place. I want to live long enough to annoy my children when they are grown adults. As for whether the incidence of gun violence is rising, I think there might be some poetic license with statistics. Maybe the actual number of incidences is lower or level, but the venues for the violence are becoming increasingly of concern -- movie theaters, elementary schools, etc. aren't gang-ridden neighborhoods, kwim? I am also troubled by the teenage boys who resort to this as a means of revenge/cry for help/fun/whatever. As the mother of teenage boys, I wonder where we, as a society, are failing to meet the needs of the kids who withdraw from us and then come out guns a-blazing -- literally and figuratively. My point is, I understand an adult who gets fired from a job going back to take out the boss who "always had it in for him/her". I don't condone it, but I understand it. But, has the high school social hierarchy gotten so brutal in recent years that kids on the outer fringes feel the same rage and disconnect? If so, how do we fix that? Certainly, sitting in a circle in elementary school holding hands and singing "Kumbaya" isn't enough.
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Abby Normal
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Post by Abby Normal on Oct 22, 2013 12:35:34 GMT -5
But some of the kids who turn into shooters, don't have that great of a home life either. Combine the pressures of school with a crappy life at home.... Not saying that they all have a crappy home life, but I think that contributes. A local school went on lock down a few weeks ago because they found out that a kid was planning something. Found all the goods at his house. Thankfully, a friend got suspicious and reported it.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 22, 2013 12:40:16 GMT -5
DH has grown up around guns and he rolls his eyes at people who say they'd pop a cap in the ass of an active shooter and save the day. Like Milee said you're far more likely to shoot innocent people and DH also said you're far more likely to get taken out because now you're a direct threat. The odds of you successfully stopping the shooter are extremely small.
In the event we were in one our first instinct is to shield Gwen and hopefully get us out of there. If it's just us DH said no question he'd throw himself on top of me and hopefully we'd get out of there alive. If it's just me I'm getting out of the line of fire ASAP.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 22, 2013 12:47:29 GMT -5
Nope, I carry and I'd get the hell out of dodge if at all possible. I'd only shoot to save myself if I had no other choice. I also take tactical training classes. Some are so off the wall that I feel we are the zombie apocalypse but some make sense IRL.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 22, 2013 12:57:02 GMT -5
Interesting, so it appears the incidence of gun violence has been on decline, but the incidence of "active shooters" has gone up. I wonder if it's due to copycats and the media publicizing the shootings so much?
But it's also interesting to try and find out why people do this. Perhaps there isn't an answer, but most active shooters seem to be young men who have a bad time at home/school/work. Mental illness must play a part as well, as no mentally well person will go on an indiscriminate shooting spree.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 22, 2013 12:59:06 GMT -5
One thing I'd be worried about if I had a CC permit would be the cops shooting me by mistake in that situation. The cops are typically going to be coming in hot and heavy within a few minutes, and I wouldn't want to be found with my gun out and shooting at the shooter (or anything).
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Oct 22, 2013 13:03:43 GMT -5
Just curious, a couple of posters mentioned "helping people" outside of the immediate danger zone. What help do you believe you could provide? Well, there's always the old stand by of applying pressure to a bleeding wound... help with moving someone... or maybe just the 'help' of holding a hand and attempting to comfort someone. There may even be some 'help' to be had by staying with someone(s) and being able to go "Yo! Over here!!" when the actual help arrives.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Oct 22, 2013 13:08:45 GMT -5
One thing I'd be worried about if I had a CC permit would be the cops shooting me by mistake in that situation. The cops are typically going to be coming in hot and heavy within a few minutes, and I wouldn't want to be found with my gun out and shooting at the shooter (or anything).
If you have training, you are told that when the cops arrive that you lower your gun to the floor and raise your hands above your head. If you are carrying, you need to tell the cop that you have a CWP and are carrying, if you are in another situation.
I've got a CWP and do carry on occasion. I've had about 100 hours of instruction and am licensed to carry in 38 states.
However, shooting is not going to be my first response. My first response (hopefully) would be to get the hell out of dodge. In a mass shooting, it is damn near impossible to shoot at the shooter and not run the risk of shooting a bystander. One of the rules we are taught is to make sure you know your surroundings and what is beyond them. In the mall shooting in OR, there was a guy who was carrying. He got his family to safety and got himself situated to be able to attempt to shoot the shooter. However, he saw someone moving in the store behind the shooter and he knew that he could not guarantee that his shots would go awry, so he did not take the shot.
Many cops shoot at less than 30%. The cops who shot the guy who shot up downtown Manhattan managed to get more bullets in bystanders than they did the shooter.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Oct 22, 2013 13:15:29 GMT -5
But it's also interesting to try and find out why people do this. Perhaps there isn't an answer, but most active shooters seem to be young men who have a bad time at home/school/work. Mental illness must play a part as well, as no mentally well person will go on an indiscriminate shooting spree.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2013 13:56:04 GMT -5
Because of where I work, I've thought about it. In fact, we received a memo about "active shooters" at work not too long ago. The only scenario where I can imagine I "might" try to do something other than get the hell out of the way, is if I'm the only adult around some children. Other than that, I'm not trying to be anybody's hero. I've been around before when somebody started shooting, I'd do the same thing now that I did those times. I know what gunshots sound like, I don't need to try to see what's happening or who's shooting. Get down and get away.
I do have guns, but they are for fun and to protect me, not to save the world. I'm a good shot in a controlled environment, but I have enough sense to know that the "controlled" part of the environment makes all the difference in the world.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Oct 22, 2013 13:59:49 GMT -5
Interesting observation that the YMOT CC permit holder recognize their limitations, while the P&M carriers are 100% accurate in whatever situation. Or so they think.
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