djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 1, 2013 18:29:47 GMT -5
I don't think you're accurately characterizing either 'half,' really? i do. i feel very strongly about that, actually. neither can you possibly know the makeup and rationale of opposition. huh? it has been deeply polled, surveyed, and probed, Mojo. the opposition is really well known.My assertion that the bill as presented clearly couldn't be the bill that would actually keep its promises would, in any case, cover both your 'halves.' hardly. those that wanted the public option were ill served by this bill.People who wanted a public option - Medicaid for all? - wouldn't want the bill to go further, even granted that Medicaid expansion ended up being the de facto driver for increased coverage (it will, I am convinced, reduce access to compensated care for the new Medicaid population). Who would want more of what Obamacare offers? More mandates, more regulations, more overheads, more costs, more complexities, more intrusions? i am not following you again. the point is not what the bill did, but what it did NOT do, for half of those that object to it.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 1, 2013 18:32:51 GMT -5
You would prefer there were no health insurance? A philanthropic world of free medicine and free love?Wouldn't we all. Sadly, in the real world, socialization of risk has to be monetized to harness the profit motive, or enforced by the oblique violence of legal mandate. Or both, as with Obamacare. You just described Canada. and every other civilized nation on Earth.
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workpublic
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Post by workpublic on Nov 2, 2013 10:25:37 GMT -5
just got a notice from insurer. the $184 a month indemnity plan that I have and have used. I was in the hospital overnight in may and they paid the $12500 bill. I had to pay about $2000 in non covered expense. the new policy will be $456.87 a month with all the mandatory, but not needed by me ACA stuf(all the child coverage, etc). looks like I'm going on the exchange.
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bimetalaupt
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Post by bimetalaupt on Nov 2, 2013 11:21:46 GMT -5
So all the doctors and hospitals opt out of this and opt out of that, no medicare, no Medicaid, only certain ins. So go ahead they are opting out of the majority of the people. They are going to have hospitals and doctors no one can afford to go to. Wonder if they have figured that out yet. Peoples wages are going down and they are getting poorer, but maybe there are enough rich to keep them all going. Who knows! Pat, Hospital care quality will depend on the cash flow of the patients paying the bills. Problem with Obama-care is they have a zero capitlization cost for new equipment. Medicare and Medicaid have NOT paid the total cost of care so the hospital shift cost to the others.. This also includes Hospital taxing districts like in Midland,TX Just a thought, BiMetalAuPt
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bimetalaupt
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Post by bimetalaupt on Nov 2, 2013 11:25:59 GMT -5
just got a notice from insurer. the $184 a month indemnity plan that I have and have used. I was in the hospital overnight in may and they paid the $12500 bill. I had to pay about $2000 in non covered expense. the new policy will be $456.87 a month with all the mandatory, but not needed by me ACA stuf(all the child coverage, etc). looks like I'm going on the exchange. WP, Sounds like a lot of cost shifting to me. Have you looked into a HMO? BiMetalAuPt
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2013 14:40:08 GMT -5
just got a notice from insurer. the $184 a month indemnity plan that I have and have used. I was in the hospital overnight in may and they paid the $12500 bill. I had to pay about $2000 in non covered expense. the new policy will be $456.87 a month with all the mandatory, but not needed by me ACA stuf(all the child coverage, etc). looks like I'm going on the exchange. The same company and an individual policy? ... You know using private insurance has historically led to increases in your rates ...
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workpublic
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Post by workpublic on Nov 2, 2013 15:48:28 GMT -5
yes. and you are right I've had it for 5 years and there was one rate increase from $182 to $184(after ACA was passed but not yet in effect). the aprox 150% increase is due to the aca. the original policy is going away(i liked it but I can't keep it (his greatest lie)). the new one conforms to the ACA(by forcing me to buy coverage I don't need, don't want like child stuff(i don't have any kids ,but I have pediatric coverage including dental(no dental for me but dental for my non existent kids))) I'm going on the exchange anyway. Thanks YMers for your subsidy! I really appreciate you guys chipping in and helping me pay for my health insurance I really couldn't afford it without you. after the hundreds of thousands of dollars i've paid out in payroll taxes, I'm finally eligible for something woo woo!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2013 17:59:20 GMT -5
An individual adult policy includes pediatric dental? I don't think so. When I was on the marketplace, they dental was not included.
You missed what I was saying... An individual policy the year after you used it would have brought a significant increase without ACA... The year we deigned to use ours for anything (about 10 years ago) the next year increase was 80%...
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bimetalaupt
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Post by bimetalaupt on Nov 2, 2013 21:34:08 GMT -5
If everyone is dropping insurance and won't take the new then only the people with money can pay for healthcare. Sounds like all doctors will quit practicing and all hospitals will close as very very few people have enough money to pay the bills themselves. I just can't see this happening, doctors may say they won't take it but what choice do they have really? Indiana chose not to take the federal Medicaid. We have a small local hospital and weekly there are lists and lists of patients they are suing. These people get sick, no money, no insurance, Medicaid would have picked up and likely paid for most of them. I don't know how long it can continue to survive. With the additional Medicaid it would have been a real boon here. So I see both sides. Pat, I have to say that if you are well and save the money many times you can make all cash deals for health care. Remember St. Vincent Hospital in New York?You can not run a hospital on Medicaid/Medicare alone..They do not pay the cost of care!! Many of the hospital in West Texas are 100% owned by a self governed Hospital District.. They own the hospitals, clinics, rest homes AND PAY THE DO OR MD WAGES!!! With the price of oil you can bet they have lots of cash. Also rural health care receives larger payments for service. You did talk about the problems with every day events ending suing. Some people make a living doing that and it cost us all. Wonder why we have a shortage of physicians? Just a thought, BiMetalAuPt
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Nov 2, 2013 22:08:34 GMT -5
Our family practice is a membership- no medicaid, no medicare, no insurance. There's an annual fee to be a member (filled up and stopped taking new patients 9 days into the program- which has been years now), and well care visits (2) per year per family member are included in the annual fee. All other services- including physicals for school, vaccinations, sick care / referrals are fee for service- it's reasonable, though. My doc's attitude is this: if you can get reimbursed by your insurance company- more power to you, but he runs a medical practice not an administrative office for the insurance carriers and government. I suppose same goes for medicare and medicaid patients? I don't know- will they reimburse an individual?
Remember way, way, way back in 2002 when I explained on the board where we all met that the US would soon have a two tiered healthcare system? Remember when I said that hugging your kids is great, but apathy will eventually kill you? Remember when I said if you were happy with your job,I'm and felt like you made "enough" money, you'd better get busy anyway and make hay while the sun was shining because the bottom line is that we're going to have two kinds of healthcare in America- the first is for those of us who can pay and we will get what we want and need. The second is for everyone else- and there you will wait in a Soviet Style bread line for a doctor with all the bedside manner of your local postmaster for second rate, rationed treatments? Because I remember it.
I wish I could dig up all those posts with all those people who said they felt like they made enough money, and they were happy, and didn't need more and didn't want to be contractors, or start a business, or invest in real estate. When I said that people in the IT field were in a unique position vis a vis supply and demand at the time, and that it would even itself out the way Aerospace did in the 1970's and Accounting did in the 1980's and sooner or later IT workers would be the modern equivalent of auto-workers-- spoiled by doing very little work relative to their pay and in a situation where their skill set was over-supplied, and facing downsizing, lower pay, etc. and that they'd better have a backup plan-- and the only guy who agreed with me was the dude with all the payday loan stores? Remember that? Because I sure as shit do.
Generally speaking, and my specific incident, and election prediction record notwithstanding, I'm a pretty damn good futurist. I can't tell you how many times I've been right because there are so many incidences of it. Most of the things I think that people find nutty, eventually find their way into mainstream thought. The big one, though, is coming. The next revolution is well underway- and it is the collapse of the whole government run school cabal, and colleges and universities are going to be rolled up into it due to the student loan bubble popping- which again, is underway.
Point being PS- the healthcare system I predicted is here. It is by design. And it's going to fail- by design. The only question is, how will our country choose to pick up the pieces? Will we choose the disastrous socialized medicine route, or will we find our American core again, and respond like Americans?
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Nov 2, 2013 23:19:57 GMT -5
* That's enough with the name-calling, EVT. Don't do it again. - mmhmm, P&M Moderator
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bimetalaupt
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Post by bimetalaupt on Nov 3, 2013 0:55:42 GMT -5
Pat The world is our customer...THE USA is the world largest industrial nation. The trend for more American production is backed with NatGas costing 25% that of Germany or Japan. Japan, South Korea, Germany and Italy all have aging populations...USA has a younger population then any of the above. Jobs in the West Texas field has produced jobs in America. We make diesel cheaper then Germany. Just look how much steel tube go into each well. Look at the pipe needed just to get the NatGas to the pipeline. These event carry high paying job for Americans... Now for the railroad cars being built at a 7/24 rate to carry the raw materials to the Valero refinery in Port Aurthur TX or Irving Oil refinery in Saint John, New Brunswick. Valero is one of thelargest uses of Methane..needed for heat and Hydrogen for cracking. One brl heavy crude = 1.3 brl diesel.. Also too you may check on the new auto plants owned by BMW, MB, Toyota and Kia etc... Georga and Alabama....BMW ship sports cars to Germany....If you do a data ANNLYSIS OF THE LONG depression ..one thing is for sure ..Low Cost production in Germany and the USA changed the world DEPRESSION . Bismark created the German Social Security system to stop the loss of skilled workers to the USA. Health care insurance will be very much the key to better heath for out national labor system. We will see if they can pull ObamaCare out..Wrong foot so far but ....THE USA has been the worlds largest exporter of next generation Health care!!! Just a thought, BiMetalAuPt
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Nov 3, 2013 17:01:40 GMT -5
I was an accountant for a hospital eons ago. What we relied on to keep it going was the semi monthly payments from medicare. That was the big dollars for us. I know things have changed drastically since then and all kinds of laws so don't know anymore. We have so called good insurance, good company, good plan, but so far for an emergency room visit for a sprained ankle and surgery on a finger for a tumor AND we had met my $3k deductible we are still out going on $2k on top of the $3k this year. No matter what happens people are going to have to pay for medical care through increased taxes, fees, and patient pay. A lot of this screaming is by ins companies, they are going to limit profits, make them pay more directly to patient care, and limit executive bonuses. They are screaming like stuck pigs and I feel doing everything they can legally and illegally to make this new system fail. As usual follow the money.
WE will go the socialized medicine route, the majority of Americans don't get paid enough anymore, by design of the major players to do anything else.
Shipping all the jobs out and having only low paying service jobs is collapsing the whole system, not enough tax revenues to keep it all going.
Big business made their bed, but now they just can't figure out what to do, they will get bit in the ass one day too as its all become a house of cards.Big business loves socialized medicine. Especially the big failed union businesses with the devastating long term legacy costs on the books. Big business is part of the problem- because Big Business would LOVE to shift the cost of benefits onto the taxpayer. So, you're right- this is the direction we're headed, but it's not in spite of big business- big business in full on board, totally in bed with government on this. The big business types aren't going to have profits cut- they're going to enjoy bigger profits as they transfer one of their largest expenses onto the backs of the American taxpayer.
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bimetalaupt
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Post by bimetalaupt on Nov 3, 2013 22:22:16 GMT -5
the ass one day too as its all become a house of cards. Big business loves socialized medicine. Especially the big failed union businesses with the devastating long term legacy costs on the books.
ACA SAVINGS IS NOT WHAT I HAVE HEAR FROM MY PEERS...THIS IS GOING TO COST MANUFACTURING THAT HAS LARGE LABOR POOLS!!!
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Nov 4, 2013 9:27:21 GMT -5
the ass one day too as its all become a house of cards. Big business loves socialized medicine. Especially the big failed union businesses with the devastating long term legacy costs on the books.
ACA SAVINGS IS NOT WHAT I HAVE HEAR FROM MY PEERS...THIS IS GOING TO COST MANUFACTURING THAT HAS LARGE LABOR POOLS!!!
I'll forward you a copy of Brer Rabbit.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Nov 4, 2013 9:30:05 GMT -5
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Nov 4, 2013 10:00:20 GMT -5
Now, that sounds like a success ratio that screams "successful". I wonder how many were actual people with an inside track given to them by someone on the know......
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2013 10:06:50 GMT -5
No way that guy was on the individual market with an affordable plan after 1.2 million payout over 6 years.... More to the story. I'd like to know the actual numbers...
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workpublic
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Post by workpublic on Nov 4, 2013 13:38:12 GMT -5
I'm in. I just finished my application. GOLD plan Fidelis NYS Westchester county $477 a month, my cost $236 with the subsidy. If it all pans out, I am extremely happy!. I'm 53, male. let's see, i need to see the ear doctor, the ass doctor, the foot doctor, the heart doctor, the shrink the periodontist, i have to pay full retail for. thanks to all who are subsidizing my health care, YOU ROCK!
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resolution
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Post by resolution on Nov 4, 2013 14:07:51 GMT -5
It is my pleasure. I would much rather have my tax dollars subsidize your health care than most of the other uses that they are currently funding.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 4, 2013 18:53:04 GMT -5
It is my pleasure. I would much rather have my tax dollars subsidize your health care than most of the other uses that they are currently funding. let me hear a HELL YEAH!
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Nov 4, 2013 20:03:25 GMT -5
No way that guy was on the individual market with an affordable plan after 1.2 million payout over 6 years.... More to the story. I'd like to know the actual numbers... Won't get it- WSJ opinion page. The real losers are those 6 feet under that couldn't get cancer treatments at all before this law- a little perspective is in order. This lady will still get coverage and treatment- worst case it may be a different facility or doctor.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Nov 5, 2013 7:50:20 GMT -5
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Nov 5, 2013 8:26:42 GMT -5
So he's a liar? So is every politician and most people. Huge surprise there.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Nov 5, 2013 8:28:34 GMT -5
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resolution
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Post by resolution on Nov 5, 2013 8:34:45 GMT -5
That depends on what the definition of "is" is.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Nov 5, 2013 8:35:17 GMT -5
So he's a liar? So is every politician and most people. Huge surprise there. This is an unprecedented lie. This was fraud in the inducement- this was a lie to sell a government takeover of 1/6th of the economy, and it was the central lie to sell America on his re-election. There are a lot of people on these very boards who ran with this lie- who called ME a liar because they bought his lie. He's hurt EVERY SINGLE AMERICAN. No one is left out of the harm done by this lie. This is the most consequential lie to the American people by a sitting President in our history. Can we believe Obama on anything? What other lies has Obama told? What else is he willing to deceive you on because he thinks he knows what's best for you?
Are we 'fear mongering' when we say that we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that he wants to take away guns as well as your health plan and your doctor?
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Nov 5, 2013 9:17:36 GMT -5
So all the doctors and hospitals opt out of this and opt out of that, no medicare, no Medicaid, only certain ins. So go ahead they are opting out of the majority of the people. They are going to have hospitals and doctors no one can afford to go to. Wonder if they have figured that out yet. Peoples wages are going down and they are getting poorer, but maybe there are enough rich to keep them all going. Who knows! Of course they have. That's the plan. And after the government has f***ed everyone over, the government will blame it on the 'free market' and propose to take it over completely. We know for sure that in nominal terms people's wages are going down, but we don't know what that means absent a look at their purchasing power. Wages have been declining for decades, but can you say that the average person's quality of life has declined in the last 40 years? Further, wages are falling because they have been artificially high for a long time. Allowing wages to fall to their true market level doesn't negatively impact the economy as a whole, or even individuals- especially if the individual in question is unemployed- a true market wage means a job for the unemployed. The overall economic benefit of going from (the real unemployment rate) of 16% to 17% to say- 8%, or even 5%-- along with lower costs to consumers and increased purchasing power because the biggest cost of goods sold is labor-- would be a welcome change in our stagnant economy.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Nov 5, 2013 9:19:55 GMT -5
No way that guy was on the individual market with an affordable plan after 1.2 million payout over 6 years.... More to the story. I'd like to know the actual numbers... You believe Democrats, but you don't believe the people they're screwing over. Amazing.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2013 9:25:39 GMT -5
I think the person probably had a government program like SpecialCare in PA, which is ending now. Notice they never said WHAT they were paying... Just that it would cost 40-50% more. I know SpecialCare is like 160$ a person... If someone got kicked off that and had a 50% increase, well, so what? The whole thing could be based on fact, just fundamentally skeweed.
I disbelieve the idea that he was in the individual market because I know how it works. No one who cost the company that much on an individual plan would still have an affordable rate.
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