Problem with a student who is a bit "off". Warning,it's long

[Deleted]

I may even delete this to preserve his or her privacy. 

I teach at a well-reputed private university. I have a student who is "off". She polishes her nails in class, and gets thrown out of class. She shows off her shopping in class, and gets thrown out of class. That has never happened in my class, but in my class she gets on her phone and I tell (and show her) that she gets 5 points off her final mark each time. 

She has sent me (and other teachers) emails begging us to give her another chance. She has ZERO self-control.

She is COMPLETELY bilingual. 

Today, we had mock interviews in half-groups. The STUDENTS signed up for their day and time slot.  

I got an email from her at 6 pm yesterday (so 4 weeks after they signed up and I sent them all the schedule) telling me she couldn't make it because she had a regular appt with her psychologist and my class (which is not the same time every week) conflicted with her appt. "If I made her come to her interview, I would be costing her money." She told me she asked some students to swap times with her but they wouldn't. 

I wrote back immediately telling her but WHY did you tell me so late?! I sent you the schedule 4 weeks ago! She told me, my mom can send you confirmation of my appt. I told her, I don't need, or WANT, an email from your mom. If you don't attend the mock interview, you will need a justified absence from the Administration.

So, she came to the interview. She was outstanding, as I said, she is totally bilingual. But, she was "off". The interview was for a popular clothing chain. She said she wants to work there even though their clothing is "not very good quality". She was asked to give an example of a professional situation she had struggled with. She told her interviewers (other students) about her last internship at a designer store, when a customer insisted she go down on her knees and put the shoes on the customer's feet, herself. She said she did it but she hated feeling "like a slave". The third comment that bugged me was that she didn't like having to "put all the clients' mess back" but she knew it was part of the job.  

I'm just flummoxed here. She was honest but I think she should not have mentioned those aspects, or at least not in such a negative light. But since she has worked in retail a lot, she obviously knows what she's talking about. 

[Deleted]

Also: I do a debriefing with the students after every interview session (4 or 5 students). This time I was honest with my interviewers, and said I have to think about this, frankly I'm not sure how I feel about some of the things she said. As a mom, not a teacher, I know that if my kid came home from their internship and told me they had to go down on their knees to put Cinderella's shoes, on, I'd be angry. They all burst out laughing LOL. 

Each group of interviewers has to report to the class on who they chose for the job, and why. So I always ask them, so what did you think? They told me, "her English is great and she obviously has a lot of experience. But something is 'not right' with her. That's always how it is with her, every time you talk to her, something is always 'off'."

I always tell my students, when you do your feedback, I don't want you saying anything nasty, part of managing people is learning the art of constructive criticism. Today I practically locked those interviews into the classroom and repeated that at least 10 times, because the young woman is obviously over the edge. Kudos to her interviewers (classmates), they all told me, in unison, "Oh Miss, please don't worry, we promise, we will be very gentle with her ... we are used to that with her!"

So I guess everybody knows this young woman is whacked / fragile / a PITA.

I honestly don't know what to do. I think she is VERY manipulative, and that's why I wouldn't play into the "email from my mom" part. But I really don't know what to do.

There used to be a person to handle this sort of thing, but she's on maternity leave. 

[Deleted]

I'm tempted to invite her to have coffee/tea with me at school, but I'm also scared to.

[cronewitch]

You can be honest but bend what you say to be true but not say everything you are thinking.

Take my ISO trying to buy a house at 66 they asked if he planned to retire. He said in a couple of years so they made him prove his future pension income and SS not just his wages. I explained he could have said he didn't have any plans, he doesn't. He has not given notice or done anything to choose a retirement date. He might work 1 year or 5 if he is healthy and needs the money so no real planned retirement date. His pension depends on how many years he works so they couldn't have made him show the future income. So not declaring retirement age may not be fully disclosing what he is thinking but it isn't lying. I on the other hand have told my boss I will give notice in January and stay until after W2 and quarterly taxes are done so I am pretty sure to retire January 31 even if I don't give notice until January. I am training my replacement so I am pretty much forcing myself to retire.

She may need to learn diplomacy like asking her what she likes the least about a retail job might honestly say, putting things away between customers. She doesn't need to say she feels like a slave just she doesn't enjoy clean up as much as she enjoys dealing with the customers and helping them find the perfect thing to buy. As for saying she wants to work even if the clothing isn't good quality she can say she knows it is important for customers to have a choice of price points and knows they offer good value to people who shop there.

You can say true things nicely or rudely and nobody wants to hear about feeling like a slave, she doesn't need to say anything about feelings or could say she felt like a servant. The word slave is harsher than words like servant or second class citizen so I wouldn't use it even in something like wage slave. We can quit, we aren't slaves.

[Deleted]

Crone, you rock! Thank you!

I have learned not to email my students late at night (although plenty of them email me late at night lol). But at some point tomorrow I will email her and invite her to meet me at school for tea or coffee and tell her that (in my own words of course LOL). 

Diplomacy is abslolutely the right word.

I hope all goes well with your (I)SO and you! And thanks again, I really appreciate your advice!

[Peace Of Mind]

Is her name Dalia and does she look like the picture below? 

She sounds like she is rich but her parents didn't spend any time teaching her the fundamentals of behavior or any social skills.  Or could she have Aspergers or be high functioning autistic?  Or do you think she is psycho?  What are you so worried about?  That she'll shoot up the class or have a meltdown?  Can't you explain to her why she should change some things as they may be offensive but tell her she otherwise nailed the interview?  Maybe that's why she doesn't know these things.  Maybe she'll been coddled all her life and you can be the teacher that changes her world. 


 

[Deleted]

POM

Her name does indeed start with a D but it's not Dalia.

POM, seriously, my real worry is that she'll off herself. She has a lot of capabilities but she is HIGH MAINTENANCE, for sure. I'm not a shrink so I don't know what is wrong with her, but something is. 

I also really believe in "paying things forward". I've always felt that if my kids were struggling somebody would "pay it forward" to them. My DH always says "You have to pay it forward, but you don't have to pay it forward to the same person."

ETA: I think she is undiagnosed ADD, or some form of that.

ETA2: Can't you explain to her why she should change some things as they may be offensive but tell her she otherwise nailed the interview?

Yes and that is exactly what I'm planning to do! "Offensive" is another great word! But the bottom line is, for her to have even SAID those things in a (mock) interview, she is visibly pretty clueless. 

Now I have to decide whether I do that BEFORE or AFTER her classmates' feedback! I'm also worried about that putting her over the edge.

POM, I work in a big school and sadly, kids DO die, every year. It is absolutely heartbreaking and devastating. Some of them overdose, some of them have undetected medical conditions, some of them fight with their friends and throw themselves in the closest river.

The first time I got wind of that, not as a teacher, but as a parent (because my DS2 graduated from that school) I promised myself I would do ANYTHING I could to pre-empt another senseless death of a young person.

[Peace Of Mind]

Now I have to decide whether I do that BEFORE or AFTER her classmates' feedback! I'm also worried about that setting her over the edge.

I would see how it goes with her classmates and then go from there.  Good luck!  That is scary and I would be concerned too!

POM, I work in a big school and sadly, kids DO die, every year. It is just absolutely heartbreaking and devastating when they do. Some of them overdose, some of them get angry with their friends and throw themselves in the closest river.

So it's true.  It's not just Americans that have these issues.  So sad! 

[Deleted]

No, it's NOT just Americans. It's the curse of the western world. When you're not worried about where your next meal is coming from, minor things can take on too much importance.

To bed with me, and thanks.

[swamp]

Some people are just assholes. 

[KaraBoo]

Debthaven - for what it's worth - here's my opinion:

She showed up to the mock interview because you made her accountable for her actions.

You aren't "indulging" her by keeping her in class.  You are holding her accountable by taking points/marks off her score for non-participation.  

Her begging you to change her grades is her attempt to manipulate you and the other teachers.  Why?  I don't know why, but maybe she has to pass for a certain reason (money most likely - bad grades, no money).

She wants to be thrown out of class - she doesn't want to be there.  If the teachers throw her out, she can then go back and tell (whoever) how stupid/unreasonable/horrible/whatever the teacher(s) are and it's not her fault she failed the class - she was doing what is asked but they're being horrible to her!  You not throwing her out and instead holding her accountable for her actions is actually forcing her to "up her game" with you by coming up with alternatives - having to go to counseling for example.

Flip her actions around - if she was talking to you as her mom, what do you think she'd be saying to you about the class and the teacher based on what you know of her?

As for what to do - keep doing what you're doing.  If she's truly manipulative, she's not going to off herself because you're holding her accountable.  She'll just bide her time (and probably try to make your life miserable in the mean time for upsetting her plans) until she's out of your class so she can go manipulate someone else.

[Deleted]

I think I am a little confused about what the question is.  How to give her feedback in a way that does not upset her?

1. You are managing the manipulative behavior correctly, providing her immediate accountability for her actions.

2. Was she participating in the interview with an objective of getting the job, or not getting the job?  From the answers she gave, either she doesn't have needed skills, or she was practicing not getting a job.  If she's a young adult it really could be either depending on their mood!

3. People thinking she is "off".  She is seeing a therapist, so no surprise there.  The kids that I have interacted with that had that "off" vibe were generally over medicated.  They aren't functioning correctly, but they also aren't able to absorb feedback very well either.

4. An internship is slavery.  Why is putting a customer's shoes on in a design house egregious?

5. The feedback you give her just needs to focus on "the best way to approach an interview is . . . provide one example of why you would LOVE to work for this company . . . blah blah blah.  I wouldn't give her direct feedback on how her responses were taken, but tell her the how of doing it the best you can.  So, you can make this a totally positive, here's constructive input that I want to see you model the next time we do mock interviews. If she brings up that she answered interview questions totally differently then she's open to having it addressed, but I'd still go gently.

6. I'd be WAY more worried about the effect of peer feedback on her than anything else.  Maybe that is the class she should miss 

[Deleted]

Thanks you guys for telling me I handled it correctly. 

Rukh there is no counseling available on my campus, only on the other, "main" campus. There really should be though!

I will probably ask for this thread to be deleted later today because the people involved would be too recognizable. 

[bookkeeper]

No one is born with a filter to keep from saying stupid stuff.  Everyone needs to learn how to "think first, speak later".  Unfortunately, some parents never teach this to their children.  Many times, whatever thought crosses a person's mind quickly comes tumbling out the mouth with out any concern that the words cannot be taken back. 

It is not too late to point this out to your student.  She can learn from you.  Less is more.

[Deleted]

I will probably ask for this thread to be deleted later today because the people involved would be too recognizable.

Recognizable to who? And I don't see anything you have said that is bad. You have been ridiculously factual. I don't see this as something you need to hide.

[nogooddeed]

Oct 8, 2013 18:10:48 GMT -5 @debthaven2 said:

So, she came to the interview. She was outstanding, as I said, she is totally bilingual. But, she was "off". The interview was for a middling clothing chain. She told them she wants to work there even though their clothing is "not very good quality". She was asked to give an example of something she struggled with. She told her interviewers (other students) about her last internship at a designer place, when a person insisted she go down on her knees and put the shoes they wanted to buy on the customer's feet, herself. She said she did it, because she didn't want to lose the internship, but she hated feeling "like a slave". The third comment that bugged me (because I was judging the interview, both interviewers and interviewees) was that she didn't relish the idea of "putting all the clients' mess back" but she knew it was "par for the course". It's true, in a lot of these inexpensive clothing chains the salespeople spend a LOT of time refolding things over and over.

Given her answers, I'm confused how you can call her interview "outstanding".  She was horrible.  I hire people and if they had said my employer's clothing was "not very good quality", if she complained about putting shoes on a customer at a "designer place"  (ie: expensive), if she felt working was "like a slave" and she didn't like "putting all the clients' mess back", her ass would have been out the door after the first or second comment.

[steph08]

Oct 9, 2013 9:52:10 GMT -5 nogooddeed said:

Oct 8, 2013 18:10:48 GMT -5 @debthaven2 said:

So, she came to the interview. She was outstanding, as I said, she is totally bilingual. But, she was "off". The interview was for a middling clothing chain. She told them she wants to work there even though their clothing is "not very good quality". She was asked to give an example of something she struggled with. She told her interviewers (other students) about her last internship at a designer place, when a person insisted she go down on her knees and put the shoes they wanted to buy on the customer's feet, herself. She said she did it, because she didn't want to lose the internship, but she hated feeling "like a slave". The third comment that bugged me (because I was judging the interview, both interviewers and interviewees) was that she didn't relish the idea of "putting all the clients' mess back" but she knew it was "par for the course". It's true, in a lot of these inexpensive clothing chains the salespeople spend a LOT of time refolding things over and over.

Given her answers, I'm confused how you can call her interview "outstanding".  She was horrible.  I hire people and if they had said my employer's clothing was "not very good quality", if she complained about putting shoes on a customer at a "designer place"  (ie: expensive), if she felt working was "like a slave" and she didn't like "putting all the clients' mess back", her ass would have been out the door after the first or second comment.

I think she was "outstanding" because it was just a fake interview debthaven2 set up as an assignment to test her English language skills. Her language skills were oustanding - her answers wouldn't be outstanding if it was an actual interview though.

[Deleted]

Given her answers, I'm confused how you can call her interview "outstanding".

I meant her English skills ... (yes, thanks Steph!)

[formerroomate99]

This is a tough one.  The fashon industry seems exactly the wrong place for someone who is undiplomatic and mentally fragile.  Even if she makes it through school, her first job could do her in.

There are other lines of work that pay reasonably well, aren't particularly stressful and where the occasional 'foot in mouth' isn't a career killer, but I doubt that someone who has chosen fashon could be convinced to pick such a field.