Car - Repair or Buy

[hoops902]

So I'm not a car guy, and I know there's a car board, but I figure some of you will have opinions as well.

Wife has a 2008 Ford Escape, just about 100K miles.  The "wrench light" has recently come on, I believe it's listed as the powertrain warning light.  Anyways, she took it in, they are saying it needs a new transmission (or to rebuild the current).  New transmission is about $3500 for everything.  We think the car is worth (or was worth before this happened) about $8-9K.

Is it worth it to fix?  Or do we just trade it on something else?  Will a dealer even take it with this problem (I assume they will and discount for the work it needs).  It still drives so we can easily shop it around if we want.  I don't want the hassle of a private sale though, particularly when it has a significant issue.

I just feel like maybe it's not worth fixing as we were thinking about getting a new car soon anyways.

THoughts? Opinions?  Expertise?

Thanks!

[justme]

What shape is the rest of the car in? Assuming nothing else is majorly wrong with the car I would assume a new transmission would keep it going for a lot longer, but if other things are just around the corner needing to be fixed I'd consider the cost of those repairs too.

ETA: I mean a lot longer than that same car that didn't have the transmission issue, but had a transmission that had 100k miles on it.

[Shooby]

  Well, it depends.  Is buying new in your budget, something you want to do and do you prefer driving a newer car?  Or,would it stretch your budget to buy new and you would rather spend money on other things?

[hoops902]

The rest of the car seems fine, haven't really had any issues with it.

::Is buying new in your budget, something you want to do and do you prefer driving a newer car? Or,would it stretch your budget to buy new and you would rather spend money on other things?::

It's not really a budget concern.  I'm not even really much of a budgeter, i've got a pile of money in my savings account earmarked for "whatever comes up" that we'd end up using.  I don't really have any preference on driving a newer car. 

I just have a hard time with dumping half the value of the car back into it, given the # of miles on it.  But like I said, I'm not a car guy, so maybe it makes sense?  I also have no idea what we'd get on a trade-in for something with that kind of issue (we're checking that today). 
I'm really just looking at it from what makes practical sense. 

[Regis]

If you've had no other issues, I'd get it fixed and keep driving it.

Here's what we do.  We keep track (in a spreadsheet) of all auto expenses for each car that are not general maintenance items.  Once that total exceeds the value of that car, it gets sold.

[Deleted]

I put a transmission in my Honda Accord at 123K miles.....if you like the car then fix it....if you want a new car, then it and buy a new car.

[chiver78]

is the Escape one that typically lasts a very long time when maintained properly? I had no problem sinking $2300 for a laundry list of things last fall including the major item - a new clutch - on my 2004 Acura (Honda) that had about 150K miles. it sounds as though you intend to drive it until it refuses to move, other than this transmission issue.

I've driven a manual for a very long time, but isn't a transmission the automatic's version of a clutch? if the Escape will last long enough for you to "pay off" your repair in what it would cost you in monthly payments on a new car, I'd say repair. that's how I looked at it last fall - it paid itself off early summer, just in time to need something else haha. but I know that if I keep up the maintenance, the rocket will be reliable.

answer that first question, and I think that's your answer.

[hoops902]

Sounds like maybe dumping half the value into the car may not be as ridiculous as I initially thought.  I'll talk to the wife tonight.  I think some of her urge for a new car may be fueled by the fact that we keep finances separate and paying for the work would take up most of her savings account (and then concern if something else goes wrong she'll have nothing saved up, whereas she's used to having a car payment, so trading in wouldn't be anything really "new" to her).  That's a part of why i wanted to keep budget out of the discussion, it gets complicated when we have separate finances but where I'd be planning ot just pay for it all myself.  In reality if it makes sense to repair, I'd just pay for it myself (and likely ditto for if we bought a car too, but she doesn't know any of that as I don't want it to affect the decision making process.  I want to pick the right thing to do regardless of who is paying for it).

I think she does like the car an awful lot. I told her to think about what kind of car she might want to get if she did get something new...and I suspect she will end up wanting something similar to what she already has (which might confirm she'd be happy just fixing this one given the right financial circumstances)

[chiver78]

I can understand really liking your car. I'm going to be lost when I need to retire mine - Acura doesn't make this model anymore

definitely check out KBB, other car sites - where they know more than we do here! - and see what the long-term expectations are on your model. "dumping half the value into the car" is only ridiculous if the car won't last long enough to pay it off, IMHO.

good luck!

[hoops902]

::it sounds as though you intend to drive it until it refuses to move, other than this transmission issue. ::

Typically that's what I do.  I get a car, i maintain it pretty well until the value is low, then I let non-essential things go.  My truck right now has no working radio, broken tailgate, slightly cracked windshield.  I don't fix these things once the car is old, I just drive it until it stops.  Then when it stops I go get a new car (or more likely when it is about to stop IMO, some buddy wants a POS for random reasons and buys it from me cheaply and then I go buy a new car.  I'm not the jerk that probably sounds like, they know they are about to break, but they wanna use hte body or parts or turn it to a farm truck or something.)

::is the Escape one that typically lasts a very long time when maintained properly?::

Given that some YM'ers definition of "very long time" might be different, it would be typical to last as least another 100,000 miles.  A transmission rebuild/replace isn't uncommon for an Escape around this time though. 

Also, we ride to work with one another, and we both like driving it and riding in it.  That's somewhat rare as she's 5'6" and i'm 6'6".  I think i'm convinced we probably just need to repair it (possible caveat of them coming back and saying they'll give us a much better deal on the trade-in than expected...which is doubtful)

[Tennesseer]

What is the Kelly Blue Book value of the vehicle? Use ''Fair' condition (seeing it needs a new transmission).

ETA-Kelly Blue Book considers a vehicle needing a new transmition to be in poor condition.   

[hoops902]

::"dumping half the value into the car" is only ridiculous if the car won't last long enough to pay it off, IMHO. ::

Yeah, that's probably true.  I'm probably thinking more emotionally about spending "how much" on "that car" than I am about anything else. 

[Opti]

Hoops, it seems a little early for transmission issues mile-wise, so you might want to ask your wife if the commute has lots of starts and stops or she pushes the car to get into gear instead of listening and working with it when it does. I ignore the value of the car issue because the important thing IMO is what it is going to cost in comparison. Odds are you aren't going to another $3500 into the vehicle next year, so the question for me would be, is repairing it cheaper than buying a new one now? My guess is the answer will be yes.

Obviously if you do as Chiver suggests and find out that particular model and year develops pricey bad issues around 100K miles you might want to do something different.
As only a five year old car, the interior and exterior should still be in decent shape. You also might want to take it somewhere for a second opinion given the cost of the repair.

[hoops902]

Oct 7, 2013 16:53:08 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

What is the Kelly Blue Book value of the vehicle? Use ''Fair' condition (seeing it needs a new transmission).

Bout $6,500.  That's the fair condition trade-in value.  Because it's a transmission and a fairly big problem, I expect the true value to be closer to $5,500-6,000.  Private party sale value is closer to $8,000, which is probably fairly irrelevant since I think selling a car with a transmission problem is probably pretty difficult (and because we commute a decent distance I don't want to spend months working on trying to sell it while driving it daily and getting stranded).  We don't have the inclination to do a private party sale.

[alabamagal]

How about a second opinion.  Also, check for a transmission shop and see what they can do.  We have one in a seedy part of town that does great work.  Much cheaper than the fancy dealership

We did that with one of DH vehicles.  Got them to replace a part for $600.  Vehicle lasted several more years.

[Shooby]

  I find that one person's sense doesn't necessarily apply to another person's.  And, we often use "this makes sense" in a way to really try to justify whatever it is we are choosing by trying to prove to ourselves or someone else what is cheaper.  In reality, that may or may not be true.  To me it never made sense to trade in a car that is paid for that gets lower gas mileage and spend $30K to buy a new car that is better on gas so you can save $2K a year on gas costs.  Does that make sense?  Doesn't to me but does to some others.  I personally would run the true costs of "I drive x miles per year and gas costs X and i get x mpg and there i spend this much for gas versus a new car that gets 35 mpg, etc, etc".  I know very FEW people who have have run those calculations.
  As for fixing it up?  In my experience, people tend to over emphasis the costs of repairs of an older car versus the cost of buying a new car.  And, seem to over exaggerate the risk of their car suddenly breaking down in a remote desert or something with no help around.  For the most part, if your car breaks down, call AAA and have it towed.  It isn't the end of the world.  And, you might save yourself several $$$ versus talking yourself into a new car.  I think for the most part, the cheapest car to own is the one you already have , even if it needs work done.
  Now, having said all this, i am not opposed to a YMer buying a new car either.  There are good points to buying new.  New tires, new brakes, new warranty.  ANd, you get to use the car for the best years of a car's life.  So, buying new can be a reasonable choice as well if you drive tend to keep and own cars for a long time.

[hoops902]

::How about a second opinion. Also, check for a transmission shop and see what they can do. We have one in a seedy part of town that does great work. Much cheaper than the fancy dealership::

Calling around today to get other estimates on the price. 1 dealership and 2 independent mechanics.  Will likely end up taking it to 1 of the independent mechanics who is the father of my wife's best friend for a 2nd opinion (and he'll likely be the cheapest).  We'll get a 2nd opinion from him either way, but he lives about an hour away and only does transmission work so we didn't want to take it there first (when we weren't sure what the problem actually was).

[giramomma]

I could go either way in your situation. With all the political upheaval, I would probably wait to buy a new car for another couple of weeks..if you can make it that long. You never know, too, if things collapse, what kind of deal you might be able to get on a new car. We bought a car at the end of 2007. Dealers were desperate to make both year end and month end numbers. We paid less for a brand new 2007 model car than we did for a  brand new 2002 model car.

If you have a bunch of cash sitting around, and the market tanks, I would do the repair and take some of the cash and put it in the market. But, I also view cars a just a tool to get me from point A to B..

[Deleted]

Oct 8, 2013 6:24:43 GMT -5 Shooby said:

  I find that one person's sense doesn't necessarily apply to another person's.  And, we often use "this makes sense" in a way to really try to justify whatever it is we are choosing by trying to prove to ourselves or someone else what is cheaper.  In reality, that may or may not be true.  To me it never made sense to trade in a car that is paid for that gets lower gas mileage and spend $30K to buy a new car that is better on gas so you can save $2K a year on gas costs.  Does that make sense?  Doesn't to me but does to some others.  I personally would run the true costs of "I drive x miles per year and gas costs X and i get x mpg and there i spend this much for gas versus a new car that gets 35 mpg, etc, etc".  I know very FEW people who have have run those calculations.
  As for fixing it up?  In my experience, people tend to over emphasis the costs of repairs of an older car versus the cost of buying a new car.  And, seem to over exaggerate the risk of their car suddenly breaking down in a remote desert or something with no help around.  For the most part, if your car breaks down, call AAA and have it towed.  It isn't the end of the world.  And, you might save yourself several $$$ versus talking yourself into a new car.  I think for the most part, the cheapest car to own is the one you already have , even if it needs work done.
  Now, having said all this, i am not opposed to a YMer buying a new car either.  There are good points to buying new.  New tires, new brakes, new warranty.  ANd, you get to use the car for the best years of a car's life.  So, buying new can be a reasonable choice as well if you drive tend to keep and own cars for a long time.

as someone whose transmission blew on 95 south 2 hours from my house with 2 of my kids in the car, I disagree with your whole 'breaking down is no big deal thing'.  I called AAA who towed me, again I was 2 hours from home.  I had to rent a car to use the entire time my car was in the transmission shop (which included extra days since I couldn't just not go into work and instead drive the 4 hour round trip to pick up my car when it was ready).

[8 Bit WWBG]

...:::"Sounds like maybe dumping half the value into the car may not be as ridiculous as I initially thought.":::...

Dumping $500 into a car worth $1k is a different proposition than dumping $6k into a car worth $12k (I watched a friend do this; and he still ended up ditching the car and having to get something else).  I, personally, am usually risk averse when it comes to "repair and hope it doesn't break again".

If it happened to me, I would want to get a very comprehensive assessment of the state of the car as a whole.  Sure, if $2k+ gives you another few problem-free years, you make your money back.  If, however, you have $2k+ problems every 5 months, well then financing a new car would be cheaper!

Like Shooby experienced, you just never know.  You might break down in your driveway.  You might break down across from the repair shop.  You might break down in the middle of a pack of hungry kodiak bears.

[Jake 48]

100K miles is not much, have you checked for any recalls from Ford?

[Cookies Galore]

If it's only the transmission and you'll get many more years out of the car, I'd say go for it. My only extremely biased concern is that it's a Ford. My mom had the 2003 Escape and the transmission was terrible (I realize that is five model years earlier and extremely limited data) and after that was totaled (thanks deer) she bought a used 2000-something Explorer and she had to put in a new transmission almost right away. So because of my extremely limited experience I say proceed with caution.

We are duct tape it and drive the car until it dies people. We are starting to look at new cars because DH's car is a passenger death trap and it won't pass inspection anymore. Not bad for a 1997 Civic with 240, 000 miles!

[hoops902]

::My mom had the 2003 Escape and the transmission was terrible (I realize that is five model years earlier and extremely limited data) and after that was totaled (thanks deer) she bought a used 2000-something Explorer and she had to put in a new transmission almost right away. So because of my extremely limited experience I say proceed with caution.::

Yeah, this will actually be the 3rd transmission for this car.  The 1st one had to be replaced after about 1,000 miles (obviously under warranty at that point).  I've also had a few Fords, including an Explorer, I haven't been impressed.  But the wife came into the marriage with it so what could I do?  It drives nice, but I somewhat expected us to have problems like this.

::100K miles is not much, have you checked for any recalls from Ford?::

Yeah, there are none for this.  And frankly, most of what I've seen online lately has suggested that for this car 100-120K miles is about the wheelhouse for when they need transmission work.

Based on the trade-in the dealer offered, we're better off getting a new transmission and selling/trading in later anyways.  At that point we'd probably do a private sale and more than make up for the money spent (again, based on my theory that private selling a car with a faulty transmission is going to be a pain).

[Opti]

Dumping $500 into a car worth $1k is a different proposition than dumping $6k into a car worth $12k (I watched a friend do this; and he still ended up ditching the car and having to get something else).

WWBG, I hope its the 6K/12K example you are complaining about. $500 into a $1K valued
car is to be expected IMO.

[mmhmm]

If it were me, I'd let your wife's friend's dad take a look at the problem.   It might not be as bad as you were told.  I haven't found dealerships to be particularly honest over the years.  I'm one to fix it and drive it for as long as it's feasible, though.  To me, a car is just transportation.  I want it to be reliable, but it sure doesn't have to be new.

[Deleted]

Oct 8, 2013 17:13:51 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

::My mom had the 2003 Escape and the transmission was terrible (I realize that is five model years earlier and extremely limited data) and after that was totaled (thanks deer) she bought a used 2000-something Explorer and she had to put in a new transmission almost right away. So because of my extremely limited experience I say proceed with caution.::

Yeah, this will actually be the 3rd transmission for this car.  The 1st one had to be replaced after about 1,000 miles (obviously under warranty at that point).  I've also had a few Fords, including an Explorer, I haven't been impressed.  But the wife came into the marriage with it so what could I do?  It drives nice, but I somewhat expected us to have problems like this.

::100K miles is not much, have you checked for any recalls from Ford?::

Yeah, there are none for this.  And frankly, most of what I've seen online lately has suggested that for this car 100-120K miles is about the wheelhouse for when they need transmission work.

Based on the trade-in the dealer offered, we're better off getting a new transmission and selling/trading in later anyways.  At that point we'd probably do a private sale and more than make up for the money spent (again, based on my theory that private selling a car with a faulty transmission is going to be a pain).

Your story reminded me of replacing the transmission in my 89 Ford Taurus at 90k. Turns out the Taurus had a reputation for needing a new transmission at 60k so we were lucky.  We kept the car for another 70k miles so well worth the investment. I would have kept the car until close to 200k but DH wanted something a little more exciting than a boring white Taurus.

[tskeeter]

Oct 7, 2013 16:34:29 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

Sounds like maybe dumping half the value into the car may not be as ridiculous as I initially thought.  I'll talk to the wife tonight.  I think some of her urge for a new car may be fueled by the fact that we keep finances separate and paying for the work would take up most of her savings account (and then concern if something else goes wrong she'll have nothing saved up, whereas she's used to having a car payment, so trading in wouldn't be anything really "new" to her).  That's a part of why i wanted to keep budget out of the discussion, it gets complicated when we have separate finances but where I'd be planning ot just pay for it all myself.  In reality if it makes sense to repair, I'd just pay for it myself (and likely ditto for if we bought a car too, but she doesn't know any of that as I don't want it to affect the decision making process.  I want to pick the right thing to do regardless of who is paying for it).

I think she does like the car an awful lot. I told her to think about what kind of car she might want to get if she did get something new...and I suspect she will end up wanting something similar to what she already has (which might confirm she'd be happy just fixing this one given the right financial circumstances)

Hoops. look at it this way.  If you spend $3,500 on a transmission, you'll get another four or five years of use out of most of the other parts of the car.  And it will probably cost you another $2K to $3K for other repairs required due to the age of the car.  So, a cost of about $6,500 for four or five years use of the car.  If you spend $500 a month for the next three years on payments on a new Escape, you'll get about four of five years of use out of it before the transmission in the new car fails, but it will cost you about $18K in payments.  And, because you're driving a newer car, your insurance and license costs will go up by $300 a year.  Another $1,500 over the next five years.   Which choice is the best deal?

If you are concerned about the possibility of breakdowns, you do have the option of doing a bunch of pre-emptive repairs.  Just replace things like the battery, water pump, starter, alternator, EGR valve, spark plugs and wires, shocks, struts, and whatever else your trusted mechanic tells you will probably need to be replaced between 100K and 200K miles.  This would be the repair equivalent of getting a new car and would dramatically minimize the risk of future failures.  It's the functional equivalent of changing your oil every several thousand miles to avoid replacing the engine every 50K miles or so.  Most people don't do this because of the cost and because they are willing to deal with the consequences of a break down (or because it helps rationalize a new car).  But, this is exactly what you do to keep mission critical equipment from breaking down.  Replace parts that are starting to get worn so they don't break and leave you stranded later. 

I've taken to doing this with car batteries.  Buy a battery with a four or five year life expectancy and replace them every three years.  Why?  Because a battery costs about $85, or $17 a year.  And a jump start when your battery dies unexpectedly is a minimum of $60.  And you still have to buy a new battery.  So, for the cost of a couple of years of wasted battery life, about $12 a year, I avoid the hassle of calling for a tow service to help start the car and I avoid spending $60 or so every several years for the jump start.  On a cost basis, it's about a break even deal to just replace the battery early.  And it saves a lot of hassle and aggravation when the battery is dead at the most inopportune moment.    

[hoops902]

It's kind of a moot point now.  We're getting a new transmission.  We found a reputable shop to do it for closer to $2,000.  Based on that cost, even if we wanted a new car, we'd be better off getting the work done then private selling the car (in part because I'm unwilling to go through the hassle of private selling it now with a faulty transmission and the added money by doing a private sale instead of trading it in as we would have done now).  Then we'd just buy a new car if we felt like it.