Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Oct 7, 2013 9:20:25 GMT -5
Since YM is full of child brainiacs, I figure someone would have some good advice. DS (3rd grade) is on the autism spectrum but mainstreamed with an aide for writing. He appears to be pretty smart when it comes to math (I say appears because we can't accurately test him because his ADHD is too strong). He does spend most of his waking hours thinking/talking about math/science, so he's very interested it in. Anyway, last night he confessed he doesn't want to answer any math questions in class because then everyone will see he's really smart in math and then bullies will pick on him. He just wants to be "normal" he doesn't want to be smart. No, so far he's never been bullied. Of course, the idea of my kid hiding his intelligence makes me want to vomit all over myself but I do understand his motivation. So for those of you who were gifted or just really ahead of your classmates, how did you deal with the social ramifications? Or did you even have any? I can't imagine he'd actually get picked on for being smart. He already doesn't have any friends really except for one little girl, and I think he's been OK with that. But there's a difference between having no friends and having enemies. DS is also very childlike/naive. For example, he also believes that if burglars find out he's so smart they'll grab him and make him help them break into banks. So, reality is not his strong suit. Anyway, I told him he didn't have to answer questions in front of the class but I made him pinky promise that he'd do his best work on paper and show his teacher he's smart. What else can I do?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2013 9:25:30 GMT -5
I think telling him to do his best work on paper for the teacher is a great idea! DS is really advanced in Math (he didn't get it from me, that's for sure!). His 1st grade teacher called him a "Mathemagician" and he loved it! We still call him that. As far as I know, no one has made fun of him because he's a good student.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2013 9:26:50 GMT -5
Geeks are the new jocks. Tell him about some famous geeks that are cool.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 7, 2013 9:28:32 GMT -5
You may want to give his math teacher a heads up about his concern.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Oct 7, 2013 9:29:01 GMT -5
See, if you were a true YMer you would have told him that he SHOULD let everyone know how smart he is and then he can charge them $$ for helping with their homework that's all I've got since I didn't go to US schools and have no clue what kids get bullied for. Where I am from, kids were jealous of kids who knew all the answers and wanted to sit as close to them as possible and wanted to be friends with them. At least in my school
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 7, 2013 9:31:46 GMT -5
IMHO, sounds less like a school issue and more like a social one. His desire to have friends (or maybe just to blend in) is stronger than his desire to stand out in class. That's OK and you're probably working on how to help him socially. If he never ever answers a question in class, what's the worst that will happen? Probably nothing. After a few times, the teacher will realize (or you'll tell him/her) about the situation and it will be OK. I'm not making light of your concern, because it's very understandable to worry about stuff like this, just pointing out that maybe this isn't the thing you want to spend all your energy worrying about or trying to fix. You're doing a good job and doing the best you can for him. It's OK.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2013 9:32:54 GMT -5
I think that what you said is great. I don't think you always deal with irrational fears by being rational. So long as the fear of bullying isn't debilitating him, and he's doing what he needs to do, I'd not worry too much.
Maybe when he's comfortable with teacher knowing his smarts, he'll be willing to show a friend, etc...
I personally hate to be acknowledged in any way. I don't fear bullies, but it highly embarrasses me and I do stuff for me, not other people... ?
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Oct 7, 2013 9:45:05 GMT -5
You may want to give his math teacher a heads up about his concern. Agreed. You might also try to find a way to make answering in class something that he wants to do; you know better how he thinks and what would be logical to him. Maybe explain that answering in class helps his classmates also become smarter, everyone needs to take turns answering in class (fairness), he should answer in class to set an example for the other kids/ be the first one to do it (sometimes) if everyone else is too shy to go for it, etc. I also agree w/ Archie that geeks/nerds are cool these days. Many kids are interested in all sorts of different things, and like to learn about new things from their friends. I think there is less pressure to conform and more interest in being different (in a good way, usually): theater, music ensembles, new sports (like Quidditch), robotic teams, whatever.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2013 9:47:12 GMT -5
Has he observed someone getting picked on for answering questions?
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 7, 2013 9:50:11 GMT -5
BTW, I wasn't trying to say there aren't ways to help with this issue or that it's a nonissue. I'm just saying that you probably have a long list (like all of us do) of things that you're working on with your kid and you need to prioritize because it's just not possible - and can even be counterproductive - to try to "fix" everything all at once. So you pick and choose what to focus on. My post was just to help you evaluate if this is a high enough priority to focus on, which means that you may not be able to be working on other things on the list. For me, this would fall down in the bottom half of the list of things I need to be working on with my kids and so it wouldn't be something I'd be doing much about right now until the more pressing things are going well. But that may be because my kids have more issues or I'm just not as good at multitasking.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 7, 2013 9:57:50 GMT -5
::I can't imagine he'd actually get picked on for being smart.::
He's not going to get picked on for being smart, he's going to get picked on for being a teacher's pet.
::Anyway, last night he confessed he doesn't want to answer any math questions in class because then everyone will see he's really smart in math and then bullies will pick on him.::
::Anyway, last night he confessed he doesn't want to answer any math questions in class because then everyone will see he's really smart in math and then bullies will pick on him.::
No one is going to think he's "really smart" by answering a math question right in class. He just needs to not try to answer too many of them. He doesn't need to hide his intelligence, he needs to give other kids a chance to participate in class. I was the kid who always knew the answers in math class. Most good teachers figure out ways around this as they don't want the same kid answering all the time anyways (this is how I figured out I needed to raise my hand SOME of the time, teachers eventually explained that even though I had my hand up first, and no one else woudl raise theirs, they wanted to make sure everyone got a chance to answer). But no one is even going to think he's really smart just because he answers his portion of the questions correctly. Kids don't notice that kind of thing day after day, they DO notice that the same kid keeps raising their hand and answering correctly question after question though.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2013 10:04:29 GMT -5
Her son is Autistic so I don't think he is capable of "figuring out" those social cues on his own.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 7, 2013 10:13:01 GMT -5
::I can't imagine he'd actually get picked on for being smart.:: He's not going to get picked on for being smart, he's going to get picked on for being a teacher's pet. ::Anyway, last night he confessed he doesn't want to answer any math questions in class because then everyone will see he's really smart in math and then bullies will pick on him.:: ::Anyway, last night he confessed he doesn't want to answer any math questions in class because then everyone will see he's really smart in math and then bullies will pick on him.:: No one is going to think he's "really smart" by answering a math question right in class. He just needs to not try to answer too many of them. He doesn't need to hide his intelligence, he needs to give other kids a chance to participate in class. I was the kid who always knew the answers in math class. Most good teachers figure out ways around this as they don't want the same kid answering all the time anyways (this is how I figured out I needed to raise my hand SOME of the time, teachers eventually explained that even though I had my hand up first, and no one else woudl raise theirs, they wanted to make sure everyone got a chance to answer). But no one is even going to think he's really smart just because he answers his portion of the questions correctly. Kids don't notice that kind of thing day after day, they DO notice that the same kid keeps raising their hand and answering correctly question after question though. The social awareness that you are promoting here is incredibly difficult for an autistic kid. Even non-autistic kids can take a while to learn those social intracacies, but asking that of an autistic kid would be similar to trying to teach your three year old calculus. No matter how smart a 3 year old you have, most don't have the tools or developmental ability to perform calculus at 3 any more than an autistic kid does to know what you're describing here. That's my point. For this kid, addressing this issue is a huge, all-out effort that may or may not even be possible at this point. So you'd put hours and hours into something that would be extremely difficult, frustrating and maybe even impossible to address something that (IMHO) isn't a huge issue.
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justme
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Post by justme on Oct 7, 2013 10:17:23 GMT -5
Her son is Autistic so I don't think he is capable of "figuring out" those social cues on his own. Maybe ask the teacher for help? Like the teacher could give you a number, like have him answer every 10th question. Maybe something concrete like that he can answer but not worry about standing out. Personally I developed the tactic of waiting to see if anyone else had the answer, and if no one was raising their hand I'd raise mine to answer and move stuff along.
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Labcat
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Post by Labcat on Oct 7, 2013 10:17:29 GMT -5
When I was in middle school my 'friends' asked me to walk on the other side of the street on our way home so that they weren't seen with me. The reason for the request: I had just received an A on the last exam and they didn't want to be seen with a nerdy brain (they were B/C students at best).
I definitely understand your son's concern. The advice that you gave him is great. I always did my best work so the teachers knew I was smart but I usually didn't reveal my grades to the other students.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2013 10:36:36 GMT -5
Since YM is full of child brainiacs, I figure someone would have some good advice. DS (3rd grade) is on the autism spectrum but mainstreamed with an aide for writing. He appears to be pretty smart when it comes to math (I say appears because we can't accurately test him because his ADHD is too strong). He does spend most of his waking hours thinking/talking about math/science, so he's very interested it in. Anyway, last night he confessed he doesn't want to answer any math questions in class because then everyone will see he's really smart in math and then bullies will pick on him. He just wants to be "normal" he doesn't want to be smart. No, so far he's never been bullied. Of course, the idea of my kid hiding his intelligence makes me want to vomit all over myself but I do understand his motivation. So for those of you who were gifted or just really ahead of your classmates, how did you deal with the social ramifications? Or did you even have any? I can't imagine he'd actually get picked on for being smart. He already doesn't have any friends really except for one little girl, and I think he's been OK with that. But there's a difference between having no friends and having enemies. DS is also very childlike/naive. For example, he also believes that if burglars find out he's so smart they'll grab him and make him help them break into banks. So, reality is not his strong suit. Anyway, I told him he didn't have to answer questions in front of the class but I made him pinky promise that he'd do his best work on paper and show his teacher he's smart. What else can I do? I dealt with that to some degree in grade school, but I didn't get teased too much. I knew I was smarter than my circle of friends (not saying it in a mean way - it was true. I certainly thought more about "smart stuff" in my off time than they did. Maybe I should say I was more introspective and thoughtful). I would just play up the fun/silly things we did have in common and minimize bringing up stuff that would create the blank stares.
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steph08
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Post by steph08 on Oct 7, 2013 10:54:57 GMT -5
I am a self-admitted nerd and I didn't really have any problems in school. But I also went to a small school and knew everyone from kindergarten through graduation. Some people are intimidated by genius.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 7, 2013 10:55:52 GMT -5
Her son is Autistic so I don't think he is capable of "figuring out" those social cues on his own. I agree. But he's already figured out that kids might pick on him for being too smart. I would assume if you tell him "raise your hand to answer one math question a day" that he could figure that out. Really, at the end of the day, "hiding" you are smart in that way isn't a giant problem. Hiding it by intentionally failing is a problem. Being shy would mean the same thing, it's not like he isn't learning, he's just not showing it off to the class. I guess I'm making an assumption that if you said "raise your hand once" that he could handle that. If not you need to engage the teacher a little more maybe. Have hte teacher call on him randomly or something.
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Abby Normal
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Post by Abby Normal on Oct 7, 2013 11:06:50 GMT -5
My son is very good at both math and science but would never want to answer questions in class. This started back in second grade. I finally asked the teachers to call on him. Finally, his fourth grade (who was awesome), used him and one other boy to help teach the other kids. On stuff where a student was falling behind, and the teacher couldn't get through to the kid, she would "ask" the two boys to help. But she did it very quietly. She would pair all the kids up with math buddies, and pair my son with one of the struggling students. She said often, my son and the other kid could explain it in a way that would make sense to the struggling student.
I don't know if that would work for your son, but certainly having the teacher calling on him might help him get comfortable.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Oct 7, 2013 11:14:42 GMT -5
Your kid is being smart. For a kid with less than stellar social skills, absolutely no good can come from showing his intelligence in front of his classmates.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Oct 7, 2013 12:05:46 GMT -5
I appreciate everyone's thoughts. They've been helpful. I think I'll end up mentioning it to the teacher at parent/teacher conferences just as an FYI. Mostly I was just so shocked because DS almost never talks about emotions - 99% of his dialog is about data. So the one time he tells me about emotions it is about being scared of what kids will think of him for being smart. We've had ENDLESS conversations about some of his social quirks (the typical autism ones) but he doesn't get that kids may bully him for those even though I'm very explicit that it could happen. Yet he worries about being seen as smart. Go figure. Milee, you are correct that this isn't a big problem. If he where shy and didn't like to answer aloud for that reason I wouldn't even blink over it. But DS saying he's embarrassed to be smart threw me a curve. I think I just needed to calm down and remember what the true issues are.
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greeniis10
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Post by greeniis10 on Oct 7, 2013 13:52:29 GMT -5
Anne81 beat me to it: it's not really about being smart (or not); it's about yet another way he's afraid of standing out and being different from everyone else.
Good advice has been given. Sounds like you're doing the right things already. Good luck to your son!
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sil
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Post by sil on Oct 7, 2013 14:12:32 GMT -5
Hi SK,
My DS (2nd grade) is also on the spectrum and has presented strongly with echolalia (imitation of sounds and phrases) especially from tv shows and books that he enjoys. In everyday conversation, my DS will sometimes repeat several minutes of dialogue from a tv show in response to a simple question. I usually have to ask a bunch of follow up questions to figure out if DS is actually feeling the emotions present in that dialog, or if he is just repeating without intent.
Does your son also echo content from tv shows? Any chance your son is watching a lot of Spiderman? Many cartoons show bullies picking on the smarter kids, but my DS especially picked up on the idea that smart kids = bully targets from Spiderman.
I'm not hating on Spiderman though....it was a great opportunity for us to talk about bullies and what motivates them (its not about hating the smart kids) and what DS can do if he is bullied or if he sees classmates who are bullied.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Oct 7, 2013 14:37:53 GMT -5
I think you've got a double edged blade going here. If you tell him he doesn't have to answer math questions in front of the class - what happens if the teacher is simply going down the seating chart and having kids answer question (do stuff at the board/whatever)? If he declines but all the other kids do it - he's singled himself out (which could lead to bullying - cuase he's become 'special' by not having to answer).
I'd did alittle deeper - is your son saying he's not gonna raise his hand when the teacher calls for volunteers (or who has an answer) or he going to NOT answer when 'randomly' called on by the teacher?
I'd probably also bring this up with the teacher... (cause if the teacher expects kids to raise their hand and your son suddenly stops... that could raise a flag with the teacher).
I'd also maybe ask your son where he got the idea that 'being smart' automatically would mean he'd be bullied? Maybe he (and the rest of the students) are just getting bombarded with anti-bullying messages and that's made him overthink the message?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2013 18:47:51 GMT -5
I wasn't autistic, but I learned to hide the fact I was smart in 3rd grade. I was in a non-graded school and did sixth grade reading, fourth grade everything else, and third grade math. They let me spend about a week in third grade before they created this monster schedule. I loved my teacher and my classmates. Then I became this little kid who thought she was so smart. The sixth graders weren't as mean as the fourth graders.
How bad was it? I was the target every day in keep-a-way. Every day they took turns throwing the ball at me. I told the teacher, and she said I was being silly. They threw the ball at me because they liked me. Um, sure.
Your autistic son has picked up on an important social cue. Sure, it is one that later should be dismissed. But he's seen it happen, or he wouldn't be aware of it.
I'd tell him how smart he was to notice that and to impress the teacher on paper. The world will grow into his intelligence.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Oct 7, 2013 19:12:17 GMT -5
Since YM is full of child brainiacs, I figure someone would have some good advice. DS (3rd grade) is on the autism spectrum but mainstreamed with an aide for writing. He appears to be pretty smart when it comes to math (I say appears because we can't accurately test him because his ADHD is too strong). He does spend most of his waking hours thinking/talking about math/science, so he's very interested it in. Anyway, last night he confessed he doesn't want to answer any math questions in class because then everyone will see he's really smart in math and then bullies will pick on him. He just wants to be "normal" he doesn't want to be smart. No, so far he's never been bullied. Of course, the idea of my kid hiding his intelligence makes me want to vomit all over myself but I do understand his motivation. So for those of you who were gifted or just really ahead of your classmates, how did you deal with the social ramifications? Or did you even have any? I can't imagine he'd actually get picked on for being smart. He already doesn't have any friends really except for one little girl, and I think he's been OK with that. But there's a difference between having no friends and having enemies. DS is also very childlike/naive. For example, he also believes that if burglars find out he's so smart they'll grab him and make him help them break into banks. So, reality is not his strong suit. Anyway, I told him he didn't have to answer questions in front of the class but I made him pinky promise that he'd do his best work on paper and show his teacher he's smart. What else can I do? Sounds like one of DW's nephews. Really smart, but has asbergers. But there is hope. Asked his Mom if he could bring some friends home to use the hot tub. The friends turned out to be a couple of geeky friends and and several of the school cheerleaders. Made his day when his athletic, good looking, golden child (to the Grandparents) big brother told him "dang, I never brought home cheerleaders!".
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alabamagal
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Post by alabamagal on Oct 7, 2013 22:54:03 GMT -5
He sounds a lot like my son. He was not autistic, but definitely lacked social skills. He was ADD. He struggled with social issues all the way through school. He never had any close friends. He was liked by classmates, but not friends with any.
Answering questions in class does not get you good grades. Passing tests gets you good grades.
Maturity was the only thing that helped my son.
Things changed when he went to college. He has plenty of friends and a great GF.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 7, 2013 23:19:48 GMT -5
Math isn't a social activity, usually. You don't need to answer questions publicly in class to get good grades, or even learning the material. So I think you did the right thing. As long as he's showing his teacher he's doing well, and getting good grades and learning the material, I think that's fine. I have asperger's, which is on the autism scale. I think due to his condition, he wants to be normal. Being exceptional is counter productive to that goal. But, as I said, I don't think it's that big of a deal if he doesn't answer questions in front of the class. Your DS has one friend? That's pretty good. That's more than I usually had....
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 8, 2013 6:50:37 GMT -5
SS, I was the same as you only short so that made it worse. I was bullied through most of my school years. For some reason it stopped when I was a junior in HS, mostly. The terrorizing by girls anyway. Schools solution was for me to skip grades. My parents did the right thing for the wrong reasons by saying NO. I was, and still am, immature, and didn't get that my brains pissed and scared people off including my own family. I learned to be a dumb blonde for most of my life. One of the best things about DF is that he celebrates my intelligence. After being married to a classless dummy, I can see that. But it's hard for me to get that he does like that I'm smart.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2013 7:24:08 GMT -5
Math isn't a social activity, usually. You don't need to answer questions publicly in class to get good grades, or even learning the material. So I think you did the right thing. As long as he's showing his teacher he's doing well, and getting good grades and learning the material, I think that's fine. I have asperger's, which is on the autism scale. I think due to his condition, he wants to be normal. Being exceptional is counter productive to that goal. But, as I said, I don't think it's that big of a deal if he doesn't answer questions in front of the class. Your DS has one friend? That's pretty good. That's more than I usually had.... I was fortunate (or unfortunate depending on the day ) to have a bunch of siblings to hang around with at least.
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