Breaking News: Shots Fired at US capitol

[Deleted]

Oct 4, 2013 13:11:09 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

Especially when she's endangering a one year old along with everybody else.

Shooting 15 rounds into a car was also endangering the one year old....she was lucky to be unhurt.

As for the White House....there are marksmen on every floor. The occupants were never in any danger.

Just think it would have been better to have a different ending. Women get over post natal depression.... and the child could have still had her mum.

It definitely would have been better to have a different ending.    It would have been better if the officers had flowers in the their hands instead of guns and when they stopped the car they gave her the flowers and she got out of the car and twirled in a circle while smelling the flowers and then fell madly in love with one of the officers and they got married and he adopted her baby and they moved into a house together and she got another job as a dental hygienist and they had more babies together and one of those babies grew up to be President of the United States and was killed in office by being run over by a car when on the White House lawn.

[Virgil Showlion]

Oct 4, 2013 13:47:16 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Oct 4, 2013 13:11:09 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

Shooting 15 rounds into a car was also endangering the one year old....she was lucky to be unhurt.

As for the White House....there are marksmen on every floor. The occupants were never in any danger.

Just think it would have been better to have a different ending. Women get over post natal depression.... and the child could have still had her mum.

It definitely would have been better to have a different ending.    It would have been better if the officers had flowers in the their hands instead of guns and when they stopped the car they gave her the flowers and she got out of the car and twirled in a circle while smelling the flowers and then fell madly in love with one of the officers and they got married and he adopted her baby and they moved into a house together and she got another job as a dental hygienist and they had more babies together and one of those babies grew up to be President of the United States and was killed in office by being run over by a car when on the White House lawn.

How about a compromise? We arm officers with both guns and flowers. That way, they can use situation-dependent judgment to decide which to use when a madwoman is running blockades and mowing people down with her car.

[Peace Of Mind]

Oct 4, 2013 14:47:34 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Oct 4, 2013 13:47:16 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

It definitely would have been better to have a different ending.    It would have been better if the officers had flowers in the their hands instead of guns and when they stopped the car they gave her the flowers and she got out of the car and twirled in a circle while smelling the flowers and then fell madly in love with one of the officers and they got married and he adopted her baby and they moved into a house together and she got another job as a dental hygienist and they had more babies together and one of those babies grew up to be President of the United States and was killed in office by being run over by a car when on the White House lawn.

How about a compromise? We arm officers with both guns and flowers. That way, they can use situation-dependent judgment to decide which to use when a madwoman is running blockades and mowing people down with her car.

  Oh hell no!  Not at tax payers expense! 


Archie, LMAO!!!! With the crazies today the flowers would most likey be for the victims of said crazies so I may have to rethink this.

[Virgil Showlion]

Oct 4, 2013 15:32:47 GMT -5 Peace Of Mind said:

Oct 4, 2013 14:47:34 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

How about a compromise? We arm officers with both guns and flowers. That way, they can use situation-dependent judgment to decide which to use when a madwoman is running blockades and mowing people down with her car.

  Oh hell no!  Not at tax payers expense! 

Sounds like somebody here is a callous lover of police brutality.

Today they're gunning down madwomen running police blockades, tomorrow they'll be putting bullets into the guy who accidentally parachutes onto the White House roof. Where will your support for the madness end, POM? Where!?

[Spellbound454]

How can you be so blasé about a sick women being shot dead?

Its all shoot first and think about it afterwards.

I don't know who was the more paranoid....A woman with a puerperal psychosis who thinks Obama is stalking her
or the local police force who thinks everything that moves is a terrorist.

[The Captain]

If I have someone trying to run me down with a large vehicle you're darn right I'm taking a kill shot.

Be totally honest with yourself, would you put your life at risk to find out if the person is mentally deranged, or out to take a few cops down?

[Peace Of Mind]

Oct 4, 2013 16:01:04 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

How can you be so blasé about a sick women being shot dead?

Its all shoot first and think about it afterwards.

I don't know who was the more paranoid....A woman with a puerperal psychosis who thinks Obama is stalking her
or the local police force who thinks everything that moves is a terrorist.

Please explain that part to me.  If I thought somebody was stalking me I'd be driving away from anywhere they'd be.  Why was she trying to get in if she thought that. 

And with all of the terrorism threats and incidences lately (including the nut jobs threatening them on the internet, etc. over the shut down) do you really believe the local police are being paranoid?  I'm the first to admit when they screw up or I don't agree but in this case I just don't see that at all.  For all they knew she was of the belief that she and her one year old would go to heaven (or wherever) if they blew up the place with a bomb - based on their religious beliefs, etc.  There is just NO way for them to know what she was up to.

It's easy to say "Oh, she's just suffering from depression" AFTER the fact but if you were actually there and after the Boston situation, etc. do you really think you'd feel the way you are saying you feel now?   I don't blame them on how they handled this at all.  What am I missing?

[Spellbound454]

5 burly cops were standing around the car.......Why didn't they open the door and drag her out?.....or shoot the tyres?....or block the car with police cars?

[mmhmm]

I'm not blase' about the untimely death of anyone, this unfortunate woman included.  However, considering this woman's actions (whether sane or insane) and consequences and possible further consequences of those actions, I can see why the police acted as they did.  She had to be stopped.  She had her own child in that car and she didn't think about what might happen to that child.   Why, then, would we expect her to think about what her actions might do to anyone else?  She was trying to run down the police who gave her a chance to surrender and get help, if that's what she needed.  She chose to accelerate into their ranks.  The reason for that decision ceases to matter when lives are immediately at risk.  The police did what they had to do.  I'm sorry, but that's how I see it.

For the record, where are you getting the diagnosis of post-partum depression?  I don't think I've seen evidence of such a diagnosis being made, but I may have missed it.

[mmhmm]

Oct 4, 2013 16:09:51 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

5 burly cops were standing around the car.......Why didn't they open the door and drag her out?.....or shoot the tyres?....or block the car with police cars?

How were they to know she wasn't armed with a semi-auto machine gun?  If that were the case, shooting the tires out wouldn't negate the gun, and opening the door to drag her out could very quickly result in a bunch of deaths.

[Virgil Showlion]

Oct 4, 2013 16:01:04 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

How can you be so blasé about a sick women being shot dead?

Sick people are shot dead every day of every week of every year. They're shot because they commit acts or put themselves into situations where they're likely to be shot. We don't live in a "Minority Report" world where we can predict crimes in advance, and we don't live in a world where people's minds and actions are monitored 24/7 to prevent them from committing crimes in a fit of rage or paranoia. We do live in a world of laws, actions, and consequences, some of which are fatal.

Indeed police blockades are "shoot first, ask questions later". This is by design. Their objective is to stop interlopers and otherwise minimize casualties. They are fully authorized to use lethal force to achieve the objective. Even if they had the means to assess the mental state of a blockade runner, which they most certainly do not, a positive diagnosis of mental illness does not modify their objective. You run a police blockade and threaten a nation's leaders, you get shot. It doesn't matter if you have a bomb strapped to your chest or if you're rushing to the Capitol Building to warn Congress about a suitcase nuke hidden in the men's washroom.

Run armed blockade. Get shot.

The cold, hard way of the world.

[Spellbound454]

Well maybe I think sick people need treating.
If that wasn't the case you have to wonder what happened.

If she isn't compos mentis, then it up to the society she lives in to look after her and the child until she recovers.
She wasn't long out of hospital.....so where the people who should have cared?

As for bombs.....I remember nothing else growing up.

[jkapp]

Oct 4, 2013 16:09:51 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

5 burly cops were standing around the car.......Why didn't they open the door and drag her out?.....or shoot the tyres?....or block the car with police cars?

Why didn't you call them up and tell them they were dealing with a mentally disturbed individual?  That way they would have known! 

Captain Hindsight to the rescue!!!!!!!!!!

[kilroy]

mmhmm, the woman's family has said that she was suffering from PPD and police in Stamford said that she told them last year that she was being stalked by the president.

[mmhmm]

Oct 4, 2013 16:39:14 GMT -5 kilroy said:

mmhmm, the woman's family has said that she was suffering from PPD and police in Stamford said that she told them last year that she was being stalked by the president.

I'd read about the incident around Christmas of last year, but hadn't seen anything about a diagnosis of PPD.  Don't know if that was the diagnosis, or if the family is merely trying to find an explanation for the unexplainable.  I really feel for them.  This has to be devastating.

Apparently, after the incident in December, Ms. Carey was taken for a mental evaluation.  I can't find anything that confirms the results of that or what treatment, if any, was given.  This is a tragedy, but I don't see how the police could have reacted differently.  They didn't even know who this woman was, and could not be sure she wasn't armed, or that another person wasn't hiding in the car.  They didn't even know the baby was there during all the chaos.

It would be really nice if things like this could be prevented, or avoided, or ... whatever.  Sadly, that's not possible.  When someone is using a car as a weapon, individuals have been hurt, and the person will not stop, the person has to be stopped.  Not to do so could have even worse consequences.  The world is not full of rosy skies and rainbows.  I wish it were, but it's just not.

[Virgil Showlion]

Oct 4, 2013 16:30:13 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

Well maybe I think sick people need treating.
If that wasn't the case you have to wonder what happened.

If she isn't compos mentis, then it up to the society she lives in to look after her and the child until she recovers.
She wasn't long out of hospital.....so where the people who should have cared?

As for bombs.....I remember nothing else growing up.

By all means, draft a proposal demanding that the state conduct bi-yearly psychological tests on all citizens, institutionalize and forcibly treat any that demonstrate signs of paranoid behaviour, perpetually monitor and enforce a medication regime post-discharge to prevent relapses, and outfit paranoiacs with collars that beam real time information to nearby police cruisers, instructing them to hold their fire as the deranged individuals blow through blockades and mow people down with their cars.

Maybe they'll tack it on to an appropriations bill or something.

[Spellbound454]

Ok consider this
Banging into a barrier is not a capital offense........The only shots fired were from police and secret services.

Some sites are saying she got out of the car but I can't seem to verify that from a reputable source. If it is true, you need an enquiry.

[Spellbound454]

Did you msis the part where she plowed into a police car smashing it up pretty darn good?

The really smashed up car hit the barrier whilst in pursuit....and the driver was taken to hospital
.

[mmhmm]

Because "some sites" claim the woman got out of the car doesn't mean the woman, in fact, got out of the car.  There is no evidence to confirm that.  Videos I've viewed would serve to do otherwise.  She did, indeed, ram a police car in front of the White House when she decided not to get out of the car, as ordered, but to accelerate out of the area.  I'm sorry, but there is no darned way the police could have done anything other than what they did.  As I've pointed out, they did not know who else was in the car (if anyone), and they did not know if the woman was armed.  You don't take chances with that.  You just don't.

[swamp]

I'm a criminal defense attorney. It's my job to be all over cop mistakes like white on rice. Teu didn't do anything wrong here. 

And as far as treating someone for mental illness, unless you are a danger to yourself or others, you can refuse to be treated. Up until this incident, it doesn't appear she was a danger. 

[Spellbound454]

Well, some more details are starting to come out.

investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/04/20822396-was-police-shooting-of-unarmed-woman-outside-capitol-justified?lite
 
An Inquiry has been launched....although its a police inquiry not a public one.

She didn't leave the car, she died after 17 shots were fired into the car.... when it had stopped..

The use of lethal force is not allowed for driving at a barrier.... except that the police surrounding the White House have a different mandate to other police.
They cannot fire with impunity they have their own directives.

There may have been a radio call (mistakenly) that she was armed and dangerous.

Questions are being asked....and rightly so imo



As for car the car being a weapon.......It wasn't if she was blocked in and not going anywhere.

Saying that they fired because they were pumped up on adrenaline is not a valid excuse.

[Deleted]

NY Times report suggests she was quite hostile and considered others lives irrelevant.

Driving a black Infiniti with a young child believed to be her daughter in the back seat, Ms. Carey tried to barrel through a checkpoint outside the White House at 2:12 p.m. She hit an officer who tried to stop her and who rolled over the hood of her car.

She then raced down Pennsylvania Avenue toward the Capitol at speeds approaching 80 miles an hour, ignoring red lights and efforts by Secret Service officers to have her pull over. When she seemed boxed in on the western side of the Capitol, officers converged on her with guns drawn. She put her car in reverse and sped off.
In a video of the episode, gunshots can be heard as Ms. Carey raced away. She hit a police car, then hurtled up Constitution Avenue. There, at the security booth, she tried to make the U-turn, heading toward the officers.
They then opened fire. The authorities would not estimate how many rounds were discharged. Mr. Gainer, the sergeant-at-arms, said he believed that five to seven officers had fired.

[mmhmm]

Oct 5, 2013 2:08:16 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

Well, some more details are starting to come out.

investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/04/20822396-was-police-shooting-of-unarmed-woman-outside-capitol-justified?lite
 
An Inquiry has been launched....although its a police inquiry not a public one.

She didn't leave the car, she died after 17 shots were fired into the car.... when it had stopped..

The use of lethal force is not allowed for driving at a barrier.... except that the police surrounding the White House have a different mandate to other police.
They cannot fire with impunity they have their own directives.

There may have been a radio call (mistakenly) that she was armed and dangerous.

Questions are being asked....and rightly so imo



As for car the car being a weapon.......It wasn't if she was blocked in and not going anywhere.

Saying that they fired because they were pumped up on adrenaline is not a valid excuse.

There is almost always an inquiry when something like this happens, spellbound.  The inquiry isn't at all unusual under the circumstances and was to be expected.  As to the shots fired, shots were being fired from the time she pulled away from the barrier at the Whitehouse.  The Secret Service was in pursuit, and firing.  They didn't wait until the car was stopped to fire. We can't know, at this time, whether she was hit by gunfire before, or after the car stopped.  We may never know.  However, to say she wasn't going anywhere doesn't fit the scene. She'd already been blocked and she most definitely "went somewhere", hitting an officer and a police car.

If you watch the videos of what happened from the start, this woman was a real and present danger to everyone in the area.  She would not stop, and was driving fast and erratically. She'd already run down a Secret Service officer (who, fortunately, suffered only minor injuries).  While I'm very sorry for whatever happened to push her over the edge, her mental illness does not negate the fact that she was a real danger to others.  It also could not have been known, for sure, by anyone there.  There could have been a bomb in the car.  She could have been armed.  There could have been another person hiding in the car.  It could have been a terrorist attack.  There were just too many unknowns for the officers to take any chances, IMO.

Condolences to her family and to the little one who will not have a mother.  Mental illness can bring such tragedy.  It's a shame it's not taken seriously and more isn't done to help before something like this ends the nightmare with another nightmare.

[workpublic]

imho all these govt tactics are to show the people who's in power. they are a warning for dissenters, a deterrent and way to keep the public docile. it's ok for the govt to do, but not private citizens to do to protect their property/lives(from each other and especially from the govt).

[Spellbound454]

She'd already been blocked and she most definitely "went somewhere", hitting an officer and a police car

She was blocked in further up the road when she was shot.

The video shows someone driving erratically, possibly trying to get away.
...and why on the video did they fire at a moving car?....bystanders could have been hurt.

Dunno mmhmm..... guess we will have to wait for the findings of the inquiry.

[Tennesseer]

Oct 5, 2013 13:58:19 GMT -5 workpublic said:

imho all these govt tactics are to show the people who's in power. they are a warning for dissenters, a deterrent and way to keep the public docile. it's ok for the govt to do, but not private citizens to do to protect their property/lives(from each other and especially from the govt).

Yet protest/dissenter marches are still allowed In Washington.



There is a difference between peaceful dissent and crazy-assed crashing into people and objects dissent.

[workpublic]

those peaceful dissenters are dismissed. they don't influence anything.

[Virgil Showlion]

Oct 6, 2013 10:41:16 GMT -5 workpublic said:

those peaceful dissenters are dismissed. they don't influence anything.

Not true at all. They make a lot of garbage, for one. And they probably have a measurable impact on the DC tourism industry, for two.

[swamp]

Dudes setting themselves on fire don't influence anyone either 

[Virgil Showlion]

Oct 6, 2013 14:20:11 GMT -5 swamp said:

Dudes setting themselves on fire don't influence anyone either 

Agreed. But the issue at hand is whether the state makes examples of meaningful dissent. I agree with workpublic that Tenn's example isn't relevant since a bunch of people waving signs isn't meaningful dissent.

Meaningful dissent would be things like blockades, occupations, harassment of politicians, large-scale boycotts, refusal to pay taxes, etc.

Picketing is something people with too much time on their hands do to convince themselves they're effecting some kind of political change.