Top Saudi cleric says women who drive may damage ovaries

[Virgil Showlion]

Sept 29, 2013 21:29:47 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Sept 29, 2013 21:25:23 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Considering we've already characterized the response of one Saudi cleric to a driving rights push as "all those religious horney (sic) old men sitting around and thinking about is (sic) womens (sic) private parts", I somehow doubt the distinction matters in P&M land.

"We" have done no such thing, Virgil!


Oh, and ...

 Psst, this isn't P&M.

P&M Jr.

[mmhmm]

No.  Current Events.  It's not difficult.  Only four syllables.  

[Jaguar]

Sept 29, 2013 23:30:09 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

No.  Current Events.  It's not difficult.  Only four syllables.  

Virgil can't count that high, remember.

[Virgil Showlion]

Sept 30, 2013 0:11:12 GMT -5 Jaguar said:

Sept 29, 2013 23:30:09 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

No.  Current Events.  It's not difficult.  Only four syllables.  

Virgil can't count that high, remember.

My secret weakness has been revealed.

[Shooby]

www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2013/09/29/Saudi-Arabian-Cleric-Says-Female-Drivers-Risk-Damaging-Ovaries

Sheikh Saleh al-Lohaidan, one of the 21 members of Saudi Arabia’s senior group of scholars with the authority to write fatwas (religious edicts), has stated women should not drive because they could injure their ovaries and subsequently bear damaged children.

Lohaidan said women should put:

reason ahead of their hearts, emotions and passions... If a woman drives a car, not out of pure necessity, that could have negative physiological impacts as functional and physiological medical studies show that it automatically affects the ovaries and pushes the pelvis upwards. That is why we find those who regularly drive have children with clinical problems of varying degrees.

A battle over the ban preventing women from driving is being waged inside the kingdom. An Internet campaign has exploded in the past week encouraging women to defy the kingdom’s ban and drive on October 26. On Sunday, the website promoting the protest was blocked inside Saudi Arabia.

Lohaidan’s website lists no scientific background, and he cited no studies as he made his claims. King Abdullah fired him from a top judiciary council in 2009, but as a member of the senior group of scholars, his views are significant because the Saudi royal family is largely dependent on the clerics of the nation for their power.

There is no specific law banning women from driving, but women have been punished with fines and also put on trial for doing so.

[The Captain]

I wonder when the study proving men driving causes mental instability because there is too much stimulation on the boys...

oh wait, we kinda have our proof in this country, don't we 

[Shooby]

I have been driving for years.  So far, no complaints from my ovaries.

[Shooby]

  When trying to control people, always enlist the help of pseudoscience and couch nonsense with the cloak of medicine or science.  Hmm...where have we seen that before? 

[mmhmm]

I'm going to merge this thread into the thread on this subject previously started in Current Events, Shoobs. - mmhmm, P&M Moderator

[mmhmm]

Reuters earlier wrongly identified him as Sheikh Saleh bin Mohammed al-Lohaidan, a member of the Senior Council of Scholars, one of the top religious bodies in the birthplace of Islam.

By contrast, Sheikh Saleh bin Saad al-Lohaidan, the person quoted in the sabq.org report, is a judicial adviser to an association of Gulf psychologists.

The above excerpt is from Reuters.  The cleric who actually said all this nonsense does not have the power to write fatwas and is not a member of the Senior Council of Scholars, as originally claimed.

The entire article is here: link

[thyme4change]

I think the connection is about as supportable as the vaccine-autism link.  People believe all kinds of crap.  But when it is some other group of people believing something that we think is ridiculous, those people are horrid.  I bet we could name off dozens of things that would make us look like total idiots to another culture.

[Opti]

I'm not so sure he believes what he said. He comes from a culture where apparently Clerics can make shit up and make people follow it. Having lost his high position since 2009 he's likely bitter.

Virgil, I think only a couple people have posted that he's an obsessed horny old guy.
I think its more about control and the fact he needs a class of people to be downtrodden to feel good about himself. What he said isn't all that different from when the Catholic church sold indulgences and still tells its believers birth control is against God's will. IMO both are false.

In the Catholic church you have single supposed to be celibate guys telling married people how to run their sex life and here you have an old male Cleric trying to keep women from driving by targeting their prime status in that culture - child-bearing. I kinda wonder given the burquas how he could even conjecture on pelvis tilting at all.

[mmhmm]

Having lost his high position since 2009 he's likely bitter.

This isn't the same guy.  Reuters originally identified another cleric with a similar name.  It's that cleric who's highly placed.  This one isn't, and never was.

[Opti]

Interesting. Do you have a link that discusses that Mmhmm to post here?

[Tennesseer]

Just more patriarchal nonsense.

[Opti]

No retraction concerning the original article posted in the OP, but I found the word Top has been removed along with adding:

Sheikh Saleh bin Saad al-Lohaidan, the person quoted in the sabq.org report, is a judicial adviser to an association of Gulf psychologists.
news.msn.com/world/saudi-cleric-women-who-drive-risk-damaging-ovaries

[mmhmm]

Sept 30, 2013 8:43:25 GMT -5 Opti said:

Interesting. Do you have a link that discusses that Mmhmm to post here?

There's a link to the Reuters article that verifies their original error in Reply #42, Optimist.  The first guy they identified is highly placed (again ... he was once demoted).  This guy is just an advisor to an association of psychologists.  No real power there.

[Deleted]

Sept 30, 2013 6:23:30 GMT -5 Shooby said:

  When trying to control people, always enlist the help of pseudoscience and couch nonsense with the cloak of medicine or science.  Hmm...where have we seen that before? 

The Secret?   

[Virgil Showlion]

Virgil, I think only a couple people have posted that he's an obsessed horny old guy.
I think its more about control and the fact he needs a class of people to be downtrodden to feel good about himself. What he said isn't all that different from when the Catholic church sold indulgences and still tells its believers birth control is against God's will. IMO both are false.

If I had to guess, he's a man who doesn't want his country to turn into the degenerate west and is willing to perpetuate a medical lie to defend the status quo. Considering the speed at which western society is unraveling, I can't blame him for worrying.

His reactionism may not be particularly reasonable in this case. "Women driving" doesn't strike me as logical candidate for milestone on the slippery slope to moral abandon. But he no doubt believes he's acting in the best interest of his society.

[Deleted]

Inquiring minds would like tot know what you would deem logical candidates.  

[Opti]

he's a man who doesn't want his country to turn into the degenerate west

We all have different opinions. I find many of the customs in various Muslim countries appalling. Its interesting to focus on the West when you have countries like Thailand and China which have open prostituition including children. But that's likely OK for them.
Not having a whole gender to exploit though - .


Maybe I should start conversing about the degenrate Mideast.

[Tennesseer]

he's a man who doesn't want his country to turn into the degenerate west

Well I think we can do without child brides in the degenerate west as is often the custom in quite a few Muslim countries.

He's 40-she's 11:



He's 55-she's 11:



The same nonsense which takes place in public in the degenerate West simply takes place behind doors ìn the conservative East.  Look up 'bacha bazi'.

[Opti]

Thanks for the gross pics Tenn.

(Poor tiny 11 year olds. )

[Tennesseer]

Sept 30, 2013 11:25:01 GMT -5 @patstab said:

Yeah, no sexual thoughts there at all, jeez.

Anyway, my ovaries came out eons ago, no issue there with driving anywhere!  Bet they would hate that situation.

Boy-you must have really slammed on the car brakes.   

[Virgil Showlion]

The same nonsense which takes place in public in the degenerate West simply takes place behind doors ìn the conservative East.

We acknowledge this particular practice is immoral and we codify it in our laws.

That doesn't excuse our failure to do so in other cases, nor do the cultural failings of Islamic nations.

We all have different opinions. I find many of the customs in various Muslim countries appalling. Its interesting to focus on the West when you have countries like Thailand and China which have open prostituition including children. But that's likely OK for them.

We acknowledge this particular practice (prostitution) is immoral and we codify it in our laws.

That doesn't excuse our failure to do so in other cases, nor do the cultural failings of China and Thailand.

Inquiring minds would like tot know what you would deem logical candidates.

Another thread, another time.

I joined the fray because of patstab's absurd characterization of "horny old men" obsessed with women's private parts. Optimist's contribution is closer to reality, since a de facto prohibition on driving is an issue of control. But then she flies off to you-really-have-no-clue land with patstab by supposing "he needs a class of people to be downtrodden to feel good about himself".

[Opti]

Virgil, I wonder if you are taking my comments personally. I remember your church gives men a higher and unique position compared to women.


I don't expect you to agree with me, but I think people who are willing to have all people be equal in society have less of a need to look down on others than those who want to keep a stratified society no matter what it takes to stay there. This cleric is intentionally lying about
what he considers the big status item of women in his society - childbearing ability. He's lying to keep women in a low place. I don't think he's doing that because he feels great about himself. I don't think he's doing it because he thinks his is a perfect society. I think he enjoys keeping women in a low place. Thus a guy who delights in causing the misfortune of others.

[Virgil Showlion]

Sept 30, 2013 12:45:18 GMT -5 Opti said:

Virgil, I wonder if you are taking my comments personally. I remember your church gives men a higher and unique position compared to women.

The ministry in "my" church follows Biblical government, wherein scripture identifies specific male and female roles. It's no more complicated than that.

I don't find your comments offensive. I find them incorrect.

I think he enjoys keeping women in a low place. Thus a guy who delights in causing the misfortune of others.

And I think your analysis says far more about you than it does about him.

[Opti]

And I think your analysis says far more about you than it does about him

You are entitled to your opinion. We aren't going to agree because I don't like the separate but different roles thing whether its based on gender, race or caste. Your analysis speaks to the fact you personally are OK with different gender roles even if it is harmful or deadly to various individuals.

[Virgil Showlion]

Sept 30, 2013 13:23:16 GMT -5 Opti said:

And I think your analysis says far more about you than it does about him

You are entitled to your opinion. We aren't going to agree because I don't like the separate but different roles thing whether its based on gender, race or caste. Your analysis speaks to the fact you personally are OK with different gender roles even if it is harmful or deadly to various individuals.

What analysis? Gender roles haven't even featured in this thread except for my brief mention of them in #61 in the context of the church ministry.

If you're claiming I believe women shouldn't be able to drive, you're mistaken. What I have said is that your theory on why a Saudi Arabian scholar (or judicial advisor) would oppose women driving has no basis in reality.

[Spellbound454]

Its still a mans world...even I feel it in a reasonably liberal and sophisticated country.

I'm descended from suffragettes. Nothing annoys me more than a lack of equality for people being born into the less favoured sex
We weren't put in this world to be subservient to someone else.

I hate the way immigrants come to this country and float about in burkas... under the pretence that its liberating.
It isn't. Its a cage....... and it does a disservice to the thousands of others who have gone before to blaze a trail of equality from which females of this country can benefit.

The call for equality isn't finished yet.

I've one message for those who would keep women in chains.

Get Stuffed.