You can't make this stuff up...

[The Captain]

Sorry, just had to post this:

IRS RIDES 1884 'DEAD HORSE' LAW TO DEFENSE OF TAX PREPARER RULES

By Patrick Temple-West

WASHINGTON, Sept 24 (Reuters) - The Obama administration on Tuesday defended its effort to regulate the tax return preparation business for the first time in U.S. history, basing its case largely on a 19th century law dealing with horses lost or killed in the Civil War.
At an appellate court hearing on a challenge brought by libertarian lawyers challenging the administration, Justice Department Tax Division lawyer Gilbert Rothenberg said: "I hate to beat a dead horse, especially one from the Civil War era."
But he explained that the administration sees the "Horse Act of 1884" as providing ample authority for the U.S. Internal Revenue Service to regulate the tens of thousands of preparers who fill out millions of Americans' federal tax returns.
A three-judge panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit heard the administration's argument. Rothenberg said the IRS should be allowed to force tax return preparers - who are now unregulated - to pass a competency test and take annual continuing education classes.
But the Institute for Justice, a libertarian advocacy law firm, disagreed.
"Congress never gave the IRS authority to regulate tax preparers," said Dan Alban, an attorney for the institute.
The case has broad implications for the industry, which includes H&R Block Inc, a few mid-tier companies and thousands of tiny, mom-and-pop firms.
A decision from the judges is still months away. In oral arguments, the judges - all appointed by Republican presidents - gave no clear sign of how they will rule, yea or neigh.



But they did question why the IRS was citing an 1884 law to justify trying to police tax return preparers in 2013.

blogs.reuters.com/patrick-temple-west/

Who says tax accountants don't have a sense of humor?

[Deleted]

But they did question why the IRS was citing an 1884 law to justify trying to police tax return preparers in 2013.

When was your constitution written? You quote that all the time.

But I don't understand the need to regulate tax preparers. Has there been a big problem I haven't heard about?

[The Captain]

Actually there has.  A lot of mass prepared fradulent returns claiming millions in refunds.  In addition, (as in any group) there are preparers that prepare "sketchy" returns.

The problem is usually limited to individuals, not groups like the Big 4 or H&R block.  Personally I see this as another money/grab (you know there will be "fees" involved) and effort on the part of our administration to limit individual freedoms. 

There are already penalites in place for preparing fradulent returns, they just need to be enforced.  This, if implemented, will do nothing to curtail the abuses.

[bean29]

Sept 25, 2013 9:40:33 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Actually there has.  A lot of mass prepared fradulent returns claiming millions in refunds.  In addition, (as in any group) there are preparers that prepare "sketchy" returns.

The problem is usually limited to individuals, not groups like the Big 4 or H&R block.  Personally I see this as another money/grab (you know there will be "fees" involved) and effort on the part of our administration to limit individual freedoms. 

There are already penalites in place for preparing fradulent returns, they just need to be enforced.  This, if implemented, will do nothing to curtail the abuses.

Actually Captain I beleive H&R block franchises are responsible for a lot of fradulent returns.  You don't qualify for EIC if you don't have legal residency but they don't clarify and process the returns and the clients get the refunds.  I have had arguments with my DH he wants me to prepare returns like H&R block and I will not prepare a return that is not correct.  I would get a preparer penalty b/c I could not afford to mount the defense they are mounting, but they have the clout to get away with it.

[The Captain]

Sept 25, 2013 9:46:33 GMT -5 bean29 said:

Sept 25, 2013 9:40:33 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Actually there has.  A lot of mass prepared fradulent returns claiming millions in refunds.  In addition, (as in any group) there are preparers that prepare "sketchy" returns.

The problem is usually limited to individuals, not groups like the Big 4 or H&R block.  Personally I see this as another money/grab (you know there will be "fees" involved) and effort on the part of our administration to limit individual freedoms. 

There are already penalites in place for preparing fradulent returns, they just need to be enforced.  This, if implemented, will do nothing to curtail the abuses.

Actually Captain I beleive H&R block franchises are responsible for a lot of fradulent returns.  You don't qualify for EIC if you don't have legal residency but they don't clarify and process the returns and the clients get the refunds.  I have had arguments with my DH he wants me to prepare returns like H&R block and I will not prepare a return that is not correct.  I would get a preparer penalty b/c I could not afford to mount the defense they are mounting, but they have the clout to get away with it.

I will stand corrected. Waaayyy back before I started my masters I worked for H&R block for a short time and the franchisee I worked for was very much on the up and up. I thought it was as much driven by corporate policy as by the individual owner but that sadly does not appear to be the case.

[Rocky Mtn Saver]

Sept 25, 2013 10:12:38 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Sept 25, 2013 9:46:33 GMT -5 bean29 said:

Actually Captain I beleive H&R block franchises are responsible for a lot of fradulent returns.  You don't qualify for EIC if you don't have legal residency but they don't clarify and process the returns and the clients get the refunds.  I have had arguments with my DH he wants me to prepare returns like H&R block and I will not prepare a return that is not correct.  I would get a preparer penalty b/c I could not afford to mount the defense they are mounting, but they have the clout to get away with it.

I will stand corrected. Waaayyy back before I started my masters I worked for H&R block for a short time and the franchisee I worked for was very much on the up and up. I thought it was as much driven by corporate policy as by the individual owner but that sadly does not appear to be the case.

I do a little seasonal work with one of the major outfits (not H&R), and our owner and all staff are extremely diligent and follow all rules.  The franchisee made it very clear to me when we first met that we are to ask for all appropriate documentation, we're never to file anything that we are not fully comfortable with, and that she will back up our play if we have any concerns about taxpayers' veracity.  I witnessed our owner personally refuse to do someone's taxes because they were clearly playing loosy-goosy with the number of dependents they wanted to claim. 

You just need to find an honest franchisee or independent-office owner. 

[Rocky Mtn Saver]

Sept 25, 2013 9:13:51 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Sorry, just had to post this:

IRS RIDES 1884 'DEAD HORSE' LAW TO DEFENSE OF TAX PREPARER RULES

By Patrick Temple-West

WASHINGTON, Sept 24 (Reuters) - The Obama administration on Tuesday defended its effort to regulate the tax return preparation business for the first time in U.S. history, basing its case largely on a 19th century law dealing with horses lost or killed in the Civil War.
At an appellate court hearing on a challenge brought by libertarian lawyers challenging the administration, Justice Department Tax Division lawyer Gilbert Rothenberg said: "I hate to beat a dead horse, especially one from the Civil War era."
But he explained that the administration sees the "Horse Act of 1884" as providing ample authority for the U.S. Internal Revenue Service to regulate the tens of thousands of preparers who fill out millions of Americans' federal tax returns.
A three-judge panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit heard the administration's argument. Rothenberg said the IRS should be allowed to force tax return preparers - who are now unregulated - to pass a competency test and take annual continuing education classes.
But the Institute for Justice, a libertarian advocacy law firm, disagreed.
"Congress never gave the IRS authority to regulate tax preparers," said Dan Alban, an attorney for the institute.
The case has broad implications for the industry, which includes H&R Block Inc, a few mid-tier companies and thousands of tiny, mom-and-pop firms.
A decision from the judges is still months away. In oral arguments, the judges - all appointed by Republican presidents - gave no clear sign of how they will rule, yea or neigh.



But they did question why the IRS was citing an 1884 law to justify trying to police tax return preparers in 2013.

blogs.reuters.com/patrick-temple-west/

Who says tax accountants don't have a sense of humor?

By the way, I knew it was an 1884 law, but I had no idea that it was a Horse Law the IRS was basing this on!  That's actually really funny. 

As is the 'beating a dead horse' joke!   

[taxref]

I'm not even sure the "horse law" was in mind when they first drew up the RTRP requirements.  I think they simply changed the definition of what "taking a position" meant, to include preparing returns.  I suspect the horse law was found only after the initial court loss.

While I support registration and CPE, I was really shocked to learn there was only a thread of legal authority for all of it.  The service spent years and millions on this program, with only a wisp of a legal foundation.  

[Rocky Mtn Saver]

Sept 28, 2013 12:13:41 GMT -5 taxref said:

While I support registration and CPE, I was really shocked to learn there was only a thread of legal authority for all of it.  The service spent years and millions on this program, with only a wisp of a legal foundation.  

Did they think no one was going to ask questions about all the changes?