AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Sept 11, 2013 15:18:09 GMT -5
with "scut work" you can leave and maybe- MAYBE- find something better. i will grant you that. but with slavery, you don't have bills to pay, you don't have to worry about getting kicked out of your house, and you probably have your basic needs taken care of, cradle-to-grave. assuming that you are not getting abused in the slavery relationship, which is better, and why? edit: for the comparison to be fair, the conditions in which you live should necessarily be similar, ie = no disposable income in either. basic needs only. I haven't read the whole thread, and I'm not going to. I am replying to the OP. If I cover something that's been covered in all these pages- suck it up and deal with it. 1. Interesting view of slavery. It sounds like the welfare state Utopia you liberals dream about to me- well, except for the work of course. 2. It is impossible to not be abused and be a slave. Unalienable is an interesting word- and because we have unalienable rights, it is relevant. Unalienable implies that you not only have the rights "endowed you by your Creator" but that you do not have the right to give up your rights. They are, unalienable. Therefore, if you are a slave- even a well-treated slave- you are being abused. 3. Scut work is not only voluntary, but the term itself is subjective. It comes in a wide variety of forms depending on who you are, and what your opinion of 'scut work' is. The guy I started mowing lawns for in high school is now in his early 60's and still running the company he is in good health and enjoys what he does. He's never had a big landscaping company, he still drives the same truck, and still pushes a mower just like his employees- of which he's never had more than three. There are a lot of people for whom mowing lawns would be a means to an end- scut work- until they found something better. He, OTOH, LOVES it. Would not do anything else. There's no "maybe" about finding a "better" (also subjective) job if a person isn't happy with their current work. 4. This thread is stupid.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 11, 2013 17:05:02 GMT -5
with "scut work" you can leave and maybe- MAYBE- find something better. i will grant you that. but with slavery, you don't have bills to pay, you don't have to worry about getting kicked out of your house, and you probably have your basic needs taken care of, cradle-to-grave. assuming that you are not getting abused in the slavery relationship, which is better, and why? edit: for the comparison to be fair, the conditions in which you live should necessarily be similar, ie = no disposable income in either. basic needs only. 4. This thread is stupid. Dun dun DUNN!!! "And as I stayed to look upon him, his visage twisted into something darker still, like the bulbous head of the Waratah shrub that reddens and distends grotesquely in plain sight of a man. I neither moved nor dared to make apologies for my young comrade, gravely fearing the consequences. To have said such a thing before a poll dancer! The folly of it! What torrent of rage would now be unleashed for sake of Paul's condescension. Would there remain of him sufficient mind and person to regret evoking it ere nightfall? I had no answer."
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 11, 2013 17:15:52 GMT -5
4. This thread is stupid. Dun dun DUNN!!! "And as I stayed to look upon him, his visage twisted into something darker still, like the bulbous head of the Waratah shrub that reddens and distends grotesquely in plain sight of a man. I neither moved nor dared to make apologies for my young comrade, gravely fearing the consequences. To have said such a thing before a poll dancer! The folly of it! What torrent of rage would now be unleashed for sake of Paul's condescension. Would there remain of him sufficient mind and person to regret evoking it ere nightfall? I had no answer." Who cares?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 11, 2013 17:19:59 GMT -5
Dun dun DUNN!!! "And as I stayed to look upon him, his visage twisted into something darker still, like the bulbous head of the Waratah shrub that reddens and distends grotesquely in plain sight of a man. I neither moved nor dared to make apologies for my young comrade, gravely fearing the consequences. To have said such a thing before a poll dancer! The folly of it! What torrent of rage would now be unleashed for sake of Paul's condescension. Would there remain of him sufficient mind and person to regret evoking it ere nightfall? I had no answer." Who cares? Only about a million kids worldwide. All waiting for the next installment of "Pauly Beacher and the Deejay Hollers".
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 11, 2013 17:23:54 GMT -5
LOL! Okay, I'll give you that. There are probably untold millions of children waiting for the next pronouncement of the second coming of Mr. Know-it-all.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2013 8:02:14 GMT -5
I don't actually think you forgot but thanks for the explanation Madam, you flatter me. One of the main problems I have as a communicator is that most of what I want to communicate is the tip of a very idiosyncratic iceberg, decades in the making. When even is carries a kaleidoscopic freight of meanings, what hope is there of finding common ground? Yet, miraculously, it happens... "as easily as my darling ... trusts a restaurant not to poison her." It helps me to think of it as Art.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2013 8:34:38 GMT -5
Actually, not so much.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2013 9:34:35 GMT -5
No, I know. I wouldn't have remarked upon it if you were flattering me.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Sept 12, 2013 11:27:29 GMT -5
I watched a documentary on slavery a while ago. When they dug up places where the slaves lived, they found all kinds of fish and small animal bones because the slaves had to hunt and fish after doing their work since their owners didn't give them enough food to survive. This was done deliberately, to keep them focused on their stomaches rather than their freedom. You're really fooling yourself if you think a handful people can keep hundreds of people in slavery or serfdom without resorting to some pretty cruel tactics.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 12, 2013 11:51:56 GMT -5
You misunderstand the argument. The studies hypothesize that LCoL and inflation rise in response to minimum wage hikes, not the other way around. Consider one meta-analysis by the NCPA. well of course. this is a really basic argument, right: "if business costs increase, prices must increase". that holds just as much for top tier wages as it does for bottom end wages.Money is less important for people who are passionate, or for people who train for highly specialized careers. But especially among my lesser-educated friends and family, income is the prime mover. strange. i have no choices but to accept it, since it is anecdotal.Good for them. Retail including what? Everything? Boats? Diamond watches? Cars? Appliances? retail as a sector, of course.you are right about restaurants, tho. the rev/employee is appallingly low in that industry. another good reason to avoid that sector like the plague.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 12, 2013 11:58:56 GMT -5
The noise you just heard, ladies and gentlemen, was a *FACTSMACK* no. the noise you just heard was "poster made a small error in his post which was lately corrected".
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 12, 2013 12:01:21 GMT -5
There's little doubt there are some people who would do this. Yet, I don't believe they're anything more than a very small minority. Those who strive will sometimes be heard to say they'd love the chance to do nothing; however, when given that chance it's not long before they're looking for "something to do". You don't see a huge number of people who are over 65 and can afford to retire continuing to work the same jobs they did before they were 65. Ditto for lottery winners. The things you do to keep bread on the table are generally not the same things that you do to 'have something to do' are generally not the same thing. If they were, companies wouldn't have to pay 'support a family' wages to get people to do them. Hobbies and volunteering are generally more enjoyable than real jobs, and you can do hobbies and volunteering on your own terms. If I became independently wealthy, I doubt I'd be sitting around watching TV all day, but I sure as heck wouldn't be a productive little worker bee either. To compare hobbies to work is an insult to the people who are actually working. i found this response hilarious, and the reply to it even funnier. i will explain why, later, but mmhmm probably gets it.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 12, 2013 12:03:18 GMT -5
I disagree. Serfs generally weren't allowed to better their situations. They were in a position where they either became serfs or starved. Today, there are a lot of jobs out there that don't require a huge amount of education or intelligence and in my career (working at call centers), I've seen plenty of people from disadvantaged backgrounds who worked scut jobs while going to school for something better. The fact that many people from disadvanted backgrounds choose not to better themselves doesn't erase the fact that the choice exists. Serfs and slaves worked a lot longer hours and a lot harder work than the vast majority of minimum wage workers. you sure about that? have you ever done field work?If someone who is working 80 hours a week doing backbreaking labor doesn't have the time and energy to better themselves, that is understandable. If someone who is working under 40 hours a week at a job we let teenagers do doesn't better themselves, that is something else entirely. To compare serfs and slaves to someone working half as many hours at a teenager's job is a ridiculous comparison and an insult to the serfs and slaves, who worked a hell of a lot harder than the vast majority of minimum wage workers today. i don't know about the "vast majority" assertion. i would have to see a breakdown on those folks to assess the validity of this claim.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2013 12:16:57 GMT -5
The noise you just heard, ladies and gentlemen, was a *FACTSMACK* no. the noise you just heard was "poster made a small error in his post which was lately corrected". "poster blahblah corrected" *FACTSMACK* I invented the word, I get to decide what it means. The egalitarianism of neologism, it's a beautiful thing really.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2013 12:18:35 GMT -5
Although you didn't to question it.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 12, 2013 12:34:05 GMT -5
Oh ya, those farmers that are in such great shape kinda prove my point about it not being back breaking work. It's physical for sure, and that seems to have benefitted your 60 year old farmer friends. that is a pretty rough life- but most farmers have this funny idea that they are helping people through what they do. odd, isn't it?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 12, 2013 12:34:57 GMT -5
no. the noise you just heard was "poster made a small error in his post which was lately corrected". "poster blahblah corrected" *FACTSMACK* I invented the word, I get to decide what it means. The egalitarianism of neologism, it's a beautiful thing really. people make mistakes. not sure they deserve to get smacked when they do it. but suit yourself.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 12, 2013 12:35:37 GMT -5
Although you didn't to question it. question what?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 12, 2013 12:40:03 GMT -5
with "scut work" you can leave and maybe- MAYBE- find something better. i will grant you that. but with slavery, you don't have bills to pay, you don't have to worry about getting kicked out of your house, and you probably have your basic needs taken care of, cradle-to-grave. assuming that you are not getting abused in the slavery relationship, which is better, and why? edit: for the comparison to be fair, the conditions in which you live should necessarily be similar, ie = no disposable income in either. basic needs only. I haven't read the whole thread, and I'm not going to. I am replying to the OP. If I cover something that's been covered in all these pages- suck it up and deal with it. 1. Interesting view of slavery. the OP had very little to do with slavery, actually.It sounds like the welfare state Utopia you liberals dream about to me- well, except for the work of course. if you read the thread, that was addressed in it.2. It is impossible to not be abused and be a slave. Unalienable is an interesting word- and because we have unalienable rights, it is relevant. Unalienable implies that you not only have the rights "endowed you by your Creator" but that you do not have the right to give up your rights. They are, unalienable. Therefore, if you are a slave- even a well-treated slave- you are being abused. only if you conflate "slavery" with "abuse". some people slave away willingly. like you, in the service of neocons, for example. edit: one could just as easily equate "scut work" with "abuse", so it really doesn't ultimately change the argument if you are simply going to ASSIGN a definition to either term, rather than reason that definition out.3. Scut work is not only voluntary, but the term itself is subjective. work in general, and scut work in particular, are only voluntary to the degree that there are alternatives. in certain parts of the world, there are NONE. i would argue that in certain parts of the US, the alternatives are so limited as to make the proposition in the OP valid.It comes in a wide variety of forms depending on who you are, and what your opinion of 'scut work' is. The guy I started mowing lawns for in high school is now in his early 60's and still running the company he is in good health and enjoys what he does. He's never had a big landscaping company, he still drives the same truck, and still pushes a mower just like his employees- of which he's never had more than three. There are a lot of people for whom mowing lawns would be a means to an end- scut work- until they found something better. He, OTOH, LOVES it. Would not do anything else. There's no "maybe" about finding a "better" (also subjective) job if a person isn't happy with their current work. 4. This thread is stupid. why are you responding to stupid? don't you have something better to do with your time?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 12, 2013 12:44:48 GMT -5
I watched a documentary on slavery a while ago. When they dug up places where the slaves lived, they found all kinds of fish and small animal bones because the slaves had to hunt and fish after doing their work since their owners didn't give them enough food to survive. This was done deliberately, to keep them focused on their stomaches rather than their freedom. You're really fooling yourself if you think a handful people can keep hundreds of people in slavery or serfdom without resorting to some pretty cruel tactics. you are ignoring the word "probably" for rhetorical purposes, i assume? if you would like, you can use the word "might". it doesn't change the argument one iota.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 12, 2013 12:49:38 GMT -5
LOL former, you have me arguing almost the opposite point I took with dj earlier. It's not about who works hardest, it is about the relationship serfs had with the landowners, vs the relationship that skut workers have with employers now. (I'm not even sure anyone classified retail as skut work.) no, not really. actually, that is part three of this discussion, is how "scut work", like FREEDOM (and to a lesser degree, slavery), is ALSO an abstract concept. Landowners reaped the benefit of the serfs' labour in the past and the corporations and shareholders reap the benefit of the low income workers labour now. Both are exploitation. Both serfs and low income workers face significant challenges to improving their lot in life. bingo. i would argue that the general trend in scut work is, as f99 just put it (for slavery), to put the lowest of the low in a position where they either have to rely on the largesse of others, OR they have to fend for themselves by selling drugs (the urban equivalent of fishing), stealing, or going through trash cans looking for aluminum. if you look at a place like Indonesia, where the minimum wage is 1/3 of poverty income, it becomes even more transparent that the ultimate objective is to keep people off balance enough that they are working on the bottom of the Maslow pyramid rather than the top.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Sept 12, 2013 13:01:22 GMT -5
There are always alternatives to the work you're doing as long as we're talking about the United States.
Slavery by definition means that the only alternative is death, or escape- and escape involves looking over your shoulder for fear of death.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2013 13:09:02 GMT -5
Oh good Lord, I would have conceded that in a flash. EVERYTHING is and abstract concept.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 12, 2013 13:11:39 GMT -5
Oh good Lord, I would have conceded that in a flash. EVERYTHING is and abstract concept. i don't think so. i think some things are concrete in this world. but IDEAS are generally not among them. they are wiggly. and they evolve.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 12, 2013 13:14:41 GMT -5
There are always alternatives to the work you're doing as long as we're talking about the United States. i never said otherwise. what i said is that they are so limited in some cases as to not be meaningfully different than "none".Slavery by definition means that the only alternative is death, or escape- and escape involves looking over your shoulder for fear of death. no, as another poster pointed out, there are actually varying degrees of slavery- from that which you describe, to the ability to "buy out" their servancy. i think we tend to have this monolithic view of slavery as a relationship that is not just built on power and authority, but one in which the slave is under lock and chain, and is threatened with abuse at every opportunity- and i just don't think that comports with the slavery of, say, Jefferson.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2013 13:16:42 GMT -5
What should the wage of an American worker be?
What should the wage of a global worker be?
If there's a difference there, can you justify it?
How many people should work?
Should workers support the welfare of the nonworking?
Should the minimum welfare income be more, less, or the same as the minimum work income?
How much of a worker's income should that worker donate to the Commons?
How much more money would we need to bring about this utopia?
Where would it come from?
How would it be sustained?
How do we avoid an inflationary wage spiral where the purchasing power of the minimum wage inevitably declines over time, and the proportion of a worker's wage donated to the Commons - or, if you prefer, given over to the Lord to be disposed as he sees fit - inevitably increases? How do we avoid the "repugnant conclusion," to paraphrase Parfitt?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 12, 2013 13:28:33 GMT -5
What should the wage of an American worker be?
What should the wage of a global worker be?
If there's a difference there, can you justify it?
How many people should work?
Should workers support the welfare of the nonworking?
Should the minimum welfare income be more, less, or the same as the minimum work income?
How much of a worker's income should that worker donate to the Commons?
How much more money would we need to bring about this utopia?
Where would it come from?
How would it be sustained?
How do we avoid an inflationary wage spiral where the purchasing power of the minimum wage inevitably declines over time, and the proportion of a worker's wage donated to the Commons - or, if you prefer, given over to the Lord to be disposed as he sees fit - inevitably increases? How do we avoid the "repugnant conclusion," to paraphrase Parfitt? most of these questions depend on what sort of society you want to live in. if you want to live in a society that is dictated solely by Darwinian principles (if you equate economic strength with physical strength, anyway), then massive starvation, abject poverty, and a whole slew of other things will follow from that. so in order to answer any of these things is: what do we want this country to look like? i think most of us have a vision of a nation where no child goes to bed hungry; one where people don't fall through the cracks for no fault of their own (or their parents, if you want to take it that far). one where you feel safe in the street, in the workplace, and in your homes. but this is far too broad a topic for this thread, imo. what this thread has primarily concerned itself with thusfar is the economic value of freedom, and the economic value of a person's time.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Sept 12, 2013 13:47:52 GMT -5
Say what? How do figure dealing drugs is in any way like fishing? dealing drugs is much more exciting.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2013 13:47:57 GMT -5
Oh good Lord, I would have conceded that in a flash. EVERYTHING is and abstract concept. i don't think so. i think some things are concrete in this world. but IDEAS are generally not among them. they are wiggly. and they evolve. What exactly are you thinking of as concrete? Not too many things that are talked about on this board.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 12, 2013 13:49:21 GMT -5
Oh good Lord, I would have conceded that in a flash. EVERYTHING is and abstract concept. i don't think so. i think some things are concrete in this world. but IDEAS are generally not among them. they are wiggly. and they evolve. Velcome stu-dentz to vilisophee vun-oh-vun. Vhere vee discuss i-de-usss. Vhat is an i-dee-a? It ees in zee mind. It ees a viggly think. It ees here. It ees zere. It ees evolvink. Vhere is zis i-dee-a? Vee do not know.
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