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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2013 13:50:13 GMT -5
Say what? How do figure dealing drugs is in any way like fishing? It's something anyone can do and basically be self employed. I get the analogy.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Sept 12, 2013 13:53:06 GMT -5
Say what? How do figure dealing drugs is in any way like fishing? It's something anyone can do and basically be self employed. I get the analogy. NOt a very good analogy. Fishing is a sole endeavor. Drug Dealing is like the ultimate MLM scheme.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2013 13:58:56 GMT -5
Which should therefore be something we can put a dollar amount to, or it's all just a lot of whiffleballing.
I'm sure it's inconveniently broad, but we don't get to consider the worldly philosophy of economics divorced from its worldly context. Good Greshamite money is finite, even if our compassion is not; and even if our compassion as expressed in this most bourgeois of fora is matched by the compassion of real skin in the real world.
I mean, even an internet discussion should aim to be more substantial than wouldn't it be nice if [x impossible] were possible?
I'll elaborate on an earlier assertion: a form of slavery for a proportion of the people were an ineluctable price of civilization - at least for notionally large populations, numbering arbitrarily more than a thousand persons.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Sept 12, 2013 14:00:55 GMT -5
My point, DJ, is that if you have slaves, and allow them to have enough to eat and a decent amount of leisure time and they aren't terrified that you'll torture or kill them, you won't be a slaveowner for long. They'll either revolt of leave. So it isn't fair to compare 'scut work' to this rosy picuture of slavery, where everyone has enough to eat and nobody is being abused, because the version of slave ownership you are talking about isn't possible, at least not for long.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2013 14:04:41 GMT -5
So now we are debating how much is acceptable. The slave owners seem to be more tolerant of it than the slaves.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2013 14:06:56 GMT -5
My point, DJ, is that if you have slaves, and allow them to have enough to eat and a decent amount of leisure time and they aren't terrified that you'll torture or kill them, you won't be a slaveowner for long. Actually I would argue that that is what is happening right now. Some of the slaves are so comfortable they don't even realise they are slaves.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 12, 2013 14:14:19 GMT -5
I'll elaborate on an earlier assertion: a form of slavery for a proportion of the people were an ineluctable price of civilization - at least for notionally large populations, numbering arbitrarily more than a thousand persons. Otherwise known as "no chain, no gain".
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Post by 973beachbum on Sept 12, 2013 14:25:51 GMT -5
My point, DJ, is that if you have slaves, and allow them to have enough to eat and a decent amount of leisure time and they aren't terrified that you'll torture or kill them, you won't be a slaveowner for long. They'll either revolt of leave. So it isn't fair to compare 'scut work' to this rosy picuture of slavery, where everyone has enough to eat and nobody is being abused, because the version of slave ownership you are talking about isn't possible, at least not for long. That isn't backed up by any of the research I have read. here is a link to explain better than I could.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 12, 2013 15:03:25 GMT -5
Say what? How do figure dealing drugs is in any way like fishing? "supplimenting your livelihood by utilizing available opportunities and resources". i also mentioned can fishing. you can take that as an alternative if i offended you in some way.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 12, 2013 15:04:14 GMT -5
Say what? How do figure dealing drugs is in any way like fishing? It's something anyone can do and basically be self employed. I get the analogy. thank you, lb.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 12, 2013 15:05:09 GMT -5
It's something anyone can do and basically be self employed. I get the analogy. NOt a very good analogy. Fishing is a sole endeavor. Drug Dealing is like the ultimate MLM scheme. true. drug dealing is more like running a McDonalds.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2013 15:06:15 GMT -5
So now we are debating how much is acceptable. The slave owners seem to be more tolerant of it than the slaves. Just as the blood of tyrants is the natural manure of liberty, so is the blood of slaves the oil that keeps the wheels of civilization turning. There is between liberty and society an inherent tension. Who are the "slave owners" in our little bloodbath? " I am His Highness' dog at Kew - pray tell me, sir, whose dog are you?" ~ Pope
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 12, 2013 15:06:18 GMT -5
Which should therefore be something we can put a dollar amount to, or it's all just a lot of whiffleballing. oh, we can absolutely do that. i was just trying to limit the scope of the exercise. you want me to take a stab?
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 12, 2013 15:10:54 GMT -5
My point, DJ, is that if you have slaves, and allow them to have enough to eat and a decent amount of leisure time and they aren't terrified that you'll torture or kill them, you won't be a slaveowner for long. i understood your assertion. i skimmed off the torture and kill part because i think that many slaves developed Stockholm Syndrome over time, and stopped questioning the paradigm.They'll either revolt of leave. So it isn't fair to compare 'scut work' to this rosy picuture of slavery, i am not arguing for a rosy picture of slavery. i have repeatedly said that slavery is beneath human dignity. my whole ENTIRE POINT is that scut work, in the general sense, is also beneath human dignity.where everyone has enough to eat and nobody is being abused, because the version of slave ownership you are talking about isn't possible, at least not for long. i am not sure labor in Indonesia (as an example) is different in any way other than "ownership". the suffering, hardship, lack of opportunity, and abuse are all very common in that work environment.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 12, 2013 15:12:32 GMT -5
My point, DJ, is that if you have slaves, and allow them to have enough to eat and a decent amount of leisure time and they aren't terrified that you'll torture or kill them, you won't be a slaveowner for long. Actually I would argue that that is what is happening right now. Some of the slaves are so comfortable they don't even realise they are slaves. this will make a beautiful segue to the next point. i don't really have time to articulate it right now, but i will come back to it, later today.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2013 15:13:07 GMT -5
What is the minimum dignified level of work?
Is any work which must be done in order to survive dignified?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2013 15:21:22 GMT -5
Which should therefore be something we can put a dollar amount to, or it's all just a lot of whiffleballing. oh, we can absolutely do that. i was just trying to limit the scope of the exercise. you want me to take a stab? In all seriousness, I don't mind what anybody does. I'm just saying that discussing economics without applying your model to the real world is as bootless as discussing any other empirical science without testing.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 12, 2013 15:23:37 GMT -5
What is the minimum dignified level of work? Is any work which must be done in order to survive dignified? there are three perspectives from which these question can be answered: one is a pure capitalist perspective. the answer there is "as little as you can get away with"; an amoral principal. the second is an "enlightened republican" perspective. the answer there would be "that which is right for the governance and commitment to a free society and the principles thereof". ans the third is a "social value" or "liberal" perspective. the answer there would be "that which would help obtain social goals which are in keeping with absolute moral and ethical principles to which the majority of people adhere". all of these have very long answers, and i don't have all day, so pick one, or i will (the third). but i don't think that the second question is that relevant to the discussion. here is why: there is no limiting principle there. people will do anything to keep from starving, including carjacking and selling their kids into slavery.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 12, 2013 15:25:02 GMT -5
oh, we can absolutely do that. i was just trying to limit the scope of the exercise. you want me to take a stab? In all seriousness, I don't mind what anybody does. I'm just saying that discussing economics without applying your model to the real world is as bootless as discussing any other empirical science without testing. it is not really my model. i am not an economist or a philosopher. i am an engineer. but i like Rosseau, Smith and Locke on this.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2013 20:02:03 GMT -5
So now we are debating how much is acceptable. The slave owners seem to be more tolerant of it than the slaves. Just as the blood of tyrants is the natural manure of liberty, so is the blood of slaves the oil that keeps the wheels of civilization turning. There is between liberty and society an inherent tension. Who are the "slave owners" in our little bloodbath?
" I am His Highness' dog at Kew - pray tell me, sir, whose dog are you?" ~ Pope I don't know the exact names, but they are the guys that run the banks, cause international laws to favour businesses over people and own corporations with incomes higher than the GDP of many countries. They are an elite that make up less than 1% of the world's population. Everyone else works towards their comfort and fancy.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 12, 2013 21:27:22 GMT -5
Just as the blood of tyrants is the natural manure of liberty, so is the blood of slaves the oil that keeps the wheels of civilization turning. There is between liberty and society an inherent tension. Who are the "slave owners" in our little bloodbath?
" I am His Highness' dog at Kew - pray tell me, sir, whose dog are you?" ~ Pope I don't know the exact names, but they are the guys that run the banks, cause international laws to favour businesses over people and own corporations with incomes higher than the GDP of many countries. They are an elite that make up less than 1% of the world's population. Everyone else works towards their comfort and fancy. Collectively known as "the powers that be".
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2013 8:23:00 GMT -5
We should have you over for lunch some time. Chef makes a Soylent Green to die for.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Sept 13, 2013 10:10:25 GMT -5
In the documentary I watched, it was Jefferson who said it was just great that his slaves had to hunt and fish after putting in a full day's work in order to get enough food to survive, that it kept them busy. So the only way scut work would be economically comparable to slavery would be in some incredibly HCOL area, where you have to work 60+ hours a week to keep a roof over your head, and even then have to live with multiple roomates.
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 13, 2013 10:19:06 GMT -5
... In the documentary I watched, it was Jefferson who said it was just great that his slaves had to hunt and fish after putting in a full day's work in order to get enough food to survive, that it kept them busy. ... Because if they weren't kept busy, they might have the time to sit around and think of crazy ideas like, for example: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 13, 2013 10:27:58 GMT -5
It seems appropriate that Tommy J's name pops up on this thread. Talk about someone who was more than willing to screw someone working for him to improve his net worth.
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Post by The Captain on Sept 13, 2013 12:14:49 GMT -5
... In the documentary I watched, it was Jefferson who said it was just great that his slaves had to hunt and fish after putting in a full day's work in order to get enough food to survive, that it kept them busy. ... Because if they weren't kept busy, they might have the time to sit around and think of crazy ideas like, for example: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. You know this is kinda interestering. The above states certain unalienable rights. The rights listed do not include food, shelter, medical care, phones, electricity, or even education. Yet people who are dependent upon government for the above things have far fewer opportunities to persue liberty or happiness then folks who provide those items for themselves. For example, a section 8 voucher ties you into a very specific region, you can't move outside the issuing authority. If you are on medicaid you cannot accumulate any type of a financial cushion or take a job that may offer better long term prospects because you will lose out on short term safety/coverage. Has government, in a misguided attempt to alleviate human suffering, taken away individual freedoms thus effective making anyone who is dependent on welfare de-facto slaves?
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 13, 2013 12:18:37 GMT -5
No offense taken. I just see no resemblance between fishermen and drug dealers. However if you are referring to recreational fishing and not occupational fishing, my point of reference for comparison is invalid. no, i don't think that drug dealing is "recreational". i view it, in the most general case, as "opportunistic supplementary income", which is precisely why i thought it might be analogous to fishing in the slave days. if you don't, i am good with that.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 13, 2013 12:20:03 GMT -5
In the documentary I watched, it was Jefferson who said it was just great that his slaves had to hunt and fish after putting in a full day's work in order to get enough food to survive, that it kept them busy. So the only way scut work would be economically comparable to slavery would be in some incredibly HCOL area, where you have to work 60+ hours a week to keep a roof over your head, and even then have to live with multiple roomates. whatever makes the analogy work for you is fine by me.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 13, 2013 12:23:41 GMT -5
Because if they weren't kept busy, they might have the time to sit around and think of crazy ideas like, for example: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. You know this is kinda interestering. The above states certain unalienable rights. The rights listed do not include food, shelter, medical care, phones, electricity, or even education. let me help you with that. the phrase includes the statement "among these". this implies that there are many many many many more rights that the state should protect and encourage (or certainly, to NOT inhibit). however, the DOI, although a foundational document, is not a legal document. a better place to look for enumeration of rights is the constitution.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 13, 2013 12:24:45 GMT -5
Has government, in a misguided attempt to alleviate human suffering, taken away individual freedoms thus effective making anyone who is dependent on welfare de-facto slaves? if welfare is slavery, so is scut work, since they are both "voluntary", according to the vast number of board members.
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