Problem tenants--need suggestions

[raeoflyte]

Hi folks--I'm hoping someone can give me some ideas on how to deal with some problem tenants. I'm sorry, it turned into a pretty long post. I think we'll talk to a laywer as well, and I'd like to go into it with as much knowledge as possible.

11 years ago I bought a triplex with my parents. I lived in 1 unit, my sister in the 2nd, and the tenants in the 3rd unit stayed. We lived there for 5 years, and were on good terms with the tenants. They paid the rent on time, took good care of the property and although less important were very friendly to us.

However, since we have moved out every tenant to move into our unit has left because the original tenants are so rude to them. 2 tenants we let out them out of their lease early because things were so bad. We're on the 4th tenant, and she is likely to move because she can't take it anymore. (FYI, the 3rd unit that my sister lived in has a tenant in it, and she has never reported any issues with the original tenants).

The original tenants have never complained to us about the new tenants, but apparently are very rude and hostile. They complain about any noise (again to the new tenants, not to us).

My dad handles most of the property management, and has spoken to the original tenants on multiple times and told them that we have received complaints about their behavior and that they need to cut it out. We don't care if their nice to the new tenants, but not to sit in the front yard yelling that they are white trash.

We're at the point where we need to have the original tenants move out. They have cost us quite a bit of money in lost rent, and marketing costs. They are on a month to month lease, but my dad is hesitant to simply end the lease. He wants to avoid drama, and worries that because one tenant is quite elderly that they could really fight us trying to end the lease and possibly sue for age discrimination.

We realize now that we should have required the 2 tenants that broke their lease to write us a letter detailing the issues, but we didn't. To be honest, since we had lived there for 5 years (with 3 dogs that barked) and never had any issues, the first 2 tenants we wondered if it was them. People don't usually have such a complete 180 personality switch.

My dad wants to be able to record the things that the original tenants are saying, but that doesn't seem like a good idea unless we had all tenants sign something that we had a recording device. The original tenants have lived in that unit for at least 15 years, so it is due for updating. I have heard of landlords using this "excuse" to end a month to month lease, or even to buy a tenant out of a lease. However, those were landlords who were getting complaints about tenants selling drugs. I can't imagine that they could sue us for ending a month to month lease, but I think my dad is so concerned about it since we didn't think to get written statements from anyone about the issues so he feels like we could be going out on a limb with a he said, she said type of thing.

So, what would you suggest?

TIA

[swamp]

You can end a month to month lease for pretty much any reason you want. Evict them sooner rather than later.

[cronewitch]

Raise the rent every time it is legal and to the max if they don't leave when you give them the first notice. Also fill the other unit with the tenants they will hate, have friends play the part of the tenants and bring assorted loud bratty kids who run and play.

[hoops902]

Feb 16, 2011 11:18:36 GMT -5 cronewitch said:

Raise the rent every time it is legal and to the max if they don't leave when you give them the first notice. Also fill the other unit with the tenants they will hate, have friends play the part of the tenants and bring assorted loud bratty kids who run and play.

While this might be kind of fun, it seems like more work than it's worth when they can just end the month to month lease.

[haapai]

Interesting situation.

I suspect that a lawyer will echo swamp. It's a month to month lease that you can break for pretty much any reason.

Not having documentation of the problem tenants' obnoxious behavior might actually be a blessing.

I think you're omitting a detail.

[raeoflyte]

I appreciate the quick responses, and am glad that other people are thinking that ending the month to month lease is the way to go.

My dad is a 'worst case scenario' person and I think he's going there and beyond. He wants to avoid drama, but I think his tactics will cause more of it. I think I'll suggest that he and I go to a lawyer so he can hear it from a professional that we can end the lease and then have a property manager take over so that he doesn't have to take the phone calls.

Haapai--I am assuming you mean about the age discrimination? I really want as much advice as possible, so I'm happy to answer questions. We got along so well with the tenants when we lived there (and we weren't ideal neighbors, barking dogs, old rusting car), but they were either just nice to us because we were the landlords, or they really did change. I can't think of anything I left out, but let me know what your thinking so I can think about it too.

[haapai]

It appears that you are footing around race. That makes your concerns regarding age discrimination sound a little pious and contrived.

[raeoflyte]

Oh--good point. Well they are white and so am I. The elderly woman came from Germany as did my great grandparents, and she lives with her daughter. So I don't think we can have any issues there.

[Clever Username]

As long as it's kosher with your lawyer:
I'm sorry to do this to you, but because the trouble we've had renting unit #2, we're going to be raising rents next period (hopefully 30 days). Double it.

Win - win. You'll get the same rent as if both units were rented. She gets to choose if she stays or not. You even get to continue trying to lease out the open unit, cheerily warning renters that a kook lives above them.

[hoops902]

Feb 16, 2011 12:09:07 GMT -5 Clever Username said:

As long as it's kosher with your lawyer:
I'm sorry to do this to you, but because the trouble we've had renting unit #2, we're going to be raising rents next period (hopefully 30 days). Double it.

Win - win. You'll get the same rent as if both units were rented. She gets to choose if she stays or not. You even get to continue trying to lease out the open unit, cheerily warning renters that a kook lives above them.

Eh, i'm not sure it's a win-win. If dad is worried about drama how do they deal with "local news story-unscrupulous landlord doubles the rent on an elderly resident". Just because you dont' need to worry about age discrimination doesn't mean you necessarily want to come off publicly as a greedy person trying to take advantage of the elderly. "Oh we were such good tenants, we've lived there 5 years, etc etc". That kind of thing sounds ripe for some sensationalistic news story. I think when in doubt, make it simple, tell them you're not renewing the lease. You might look like you're kicking them out (which you are), but at least there's no worry about appearing greedy or trying to take advantage of them.

[haapai]

That simplifies things quite a bit.

I was envisioning a scenario which would eat up a lot of lawyer-time. It can be expensive to be tongue-tied around your lawyer or use them as a shrink or priest.

[Cass]

Triplexes are tough. I just moved out of a beautiful newly renovated apartment on the ground floor of a triplex to an older, out dated duplex for $100 more per month due to neighbour issues as well. My neighbours were wonderful, friendly people, but the entire situation was too close for comfort. Everybody and their guests were constanly walking and driving by the windows of all my rooms due to the location of the parking, and there were noise issues between my unit and the upper unit with people going up and down the stairs, footsteps, doors closing etc. In my case, I was actually relieved in the few short months the upstairs unit was vacant, as I felt I had a little more privacy.

Not sure if this would be the same case with your current tenants, but it is probably worth asking your current tenants what their experience has been living there for 15 years. I didn't tell my former landlord I was leaving because I felt I was living in a fishbowl, but she is currently seeking the eighth tenant between the three units in only a year and a half.

[raeoflyte]

I guess if they hate having neighbors so much they could lease the other unit, and use both.

We did reduce their rent by $100 when we moved out with the understanding that they (and I mean the daughter, not the elderly mom) would mow, shovel, etc. This was the same agreement they had with the previous landlord when we bought the place, but since we lived there we did those things. They said they were happy to take that back on, and of course have lowered rent. However, they only look after their unit, and we've never raised it back up. We could do that now, but I think it will just prolong the situation.

Part of me wants to move back in and see what they think of us now with our dogs and toddler.

[Wisconsin Beth]

Is the problem the elderly woman or the daughter or both? I'm wondering if the elderly woman is having mental issues and reverting back to the mores of HER youth. My dad is starting to do this more as he gets older, Mom not so much. I'm not suggesting that you should keep her as a tenant because of it. I tend to get distracted by the "why" of situations.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Here's one thought....

It sounds like it's been 5+ years since you've lived there yourself? Is it possible that the elderly neighbor has dementia? Is the elderly woman the one causing the problem or her daughter?

I know that this does not excuse their actions though, but it may make things more difficult for you.

[Cass]

I have neighbours, I've always had neighbours. Never quite like in a triplex though.

Moving back in with the dogs and the toddler may be your solution

[haapai]

Part of me wants to move back in and see what they think of us now with our dogs and toddler.

You might land up doing this. If you can't convince your father of the need to get rid of these tenants, it may be the only way to keep this unit occupied.

[raeoflyte]

The first 2 tenants complained about mother and daughter together, but now it seems to only be coming from the daughter. Mom may not get out as much anymore, and the daughter is either at work or at home with her mom, so some of that attitude could be rubbing off? I'm not really sure.

Sroo4--that is definitely a part of the equation. In the beginning I couldn't hardly believe that they were capable of being so awful. I know their financial lives aren't great (not terrible, but a move will be difficult for them). However, our rentals can't be charities, and I feel like we've given them every opportunity to stay.

[Wisconsin Beth]

"The first 2 tenants complained about mother and daughter together, but now it seems to only be coming from the daughter. Mom may not get out as much anymore, and the daughter is either at work or at home with her mom, so some of that attitude could be rubbing off? I'm not really sure."

It could be. And if daughter is the sole caregiver for Mom, she may very well be tired and bitter about her situation and taking it out on the neighbors... It's still not your issue/responsibility to fix though. So I'd talk to your lawyer and see about getting them out.

[Tred]

Can you do a walk-through to visually assess the condition of the unit before ending the lease agreement?

Do you have enough of their financial info, SSN's, etc... to go after them if there's damage to the unit? (beyond what the deposit will cover...if you have their deposit)

[raeoflyte]

tredmil--good points I hadn't thought of and I'll check on them. I haven't been in the property for some time, and I'm not sure the last time my dad saw the inside. They kept the place pristine when we were there and I guess do now too. But they might not be above causing damage if the lease were ending.

I hope we don't have to move back in (beautiful area, but would be very cramped for our situation now, plus moving expenses, renting out our home, etc). But I'll mention it as an option if we have to.

[hoops902]

Feb 16, 2011 13:39:22 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

I guess I don't understand why you would have to move back in.

If my choices were A. Disrupt my life or B. Get rid of problem tenant, I don't think it would take too long to decide.

Kind of what I was thinking. A good indication OP might not be cut out to be a landlord. This isn't a court of law where you just absolutely have to find out what happened and who's right/wrong. You've got a trend where people leave because they don't like Tenant A. Get rid of tenant A. You don't need to move in to find out how nice they are, or who started it, or what their personality is like. Heck you don't even need to evict them, all you need is to end their month to month residency. But you seem to actually be considering packing up your family, paying costs to move, rent your current home, and live in a place you don't want to live in just to "see if they're like that toward you".

You don't sound cut out to own rentals from a psychological perspective.

[raeoflyte]

Feb 16, 2011 13:35:07 GMT -5 @tbird said:

have you talked to the non-complaining tenant? Were these others really noisy and inconsiderate first?

I'm not sure I would have enough info to know who was the culprit if there is a non complaining tenant.

Try to get a nice tenant for the empty unit. Tell the original tenants that any complaints abotu other tenants behavior MUST be given to the owners to deal with, NOT with other tenants.

If they do not abide by that - then they are the problem.

We have talked to them (or I should say my dad has), but it's been 2 tenants ago. The 3rd tenant stuck out her lease and was having relationship issues, but also said that she wasn't going to renew because of their behavior. I'll have to see if my dad has spoken to them since the 4th tenant moved in.

The tenant in the 3rd unit is a bit of an anomaly. In the beginning I think she was friends with the original tenants--might be still. The tenant in the 3rd unit has never complained to us about any of the other tenants either, so she may be very non-confrontational, or may not have an issue with anyone living in the building.

[raeoflyte]

Feb 16, 2011 13:43:49 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

Feb 16, 2011 13:39:22 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

I guess I don't understand why you would have to move back in.

If my choices were A. Disrupt my life or B. Get rid of problem tenant, I don't think it would take too long to decide.

Kind of what I was thinking. A good indication OP might not be cut out to be a landlord. This isn't a court of law where you just absolutely have to find out what happened and who's right/wrong. You've got a trend where people leave because they don't like Tenant A. Get rid of tenant A. You don't need to move in to find out how nice they are, or who started it, or what their personality is like. Heck you don't even need to evict them, all you need is to end their month to month residency. But you seem to actually be considering packing up your family, paying costs to move, rent your current home, and live in a place you don't want to live in just to "see if they're like that toward you".

You don't sound cut out to own rentals from a psychological perspective.

I'll admit that it isn't a natural personality, but at the end of the year being a landlord has always been worth the headaches, so I'm working on it.

I was looking at it more from a perspective that if my dad still struggles with ending their lease because we don't 'know' if they're the problem. I struggle a little bit with ending a lease on a tenant that has paid on time every month for 11 years, even though it is obviously costing us money in other ways.

I will talk to my parents tonight, tell them my thoughts and ask if we can all go to a lawyer together to give my dad some piece of mind. Then hire a property manager to deal with the leases, and manage the property for at least a year. Maybe I'll take over after that to give him a break. They live very close to the property so they just naturally stepped in when we left since it was so easy to show tenants etc.

[hoops902]

"I was looking at it more from a perspective that if my dad still struggles with ending their lease because we don't 'know' if they're the problem. I struggle a little bit with ending a lease on a tenant that has paid on time every month for 11 years, even though it is obviously costing us money in other ways. "

I think it should be obvious just from knowing human nature they aren't going to treat you the same way they treated other tenants. You're the landlord. They probably see a pecking order. It goes owner, then them with their seniority in the triplex, then new people. Even if these people are horrid and evil it's unlikely they're going to act that way toward the owners who will simply boot them out.

"I'll admit that it isn't a natural personality, but at the end of the year being a landlord has always been worth the headaches, so I'm working on it."

It's not going to be worth it if you end up living in a place you don't want to live just to keep tenants under control though.

"Then hire a property manager to deal with the leases, and manage the property for at least a year."

Why? This isn't going to change this kind of decision for you. If the issue is a tenant driving away other tenants it's still going to come down to you to decide whether to get rid of them...this time with an extra middle-man in the way of information flowing from the exiting tenant to you. Are you having other issue with the rental that you think makes it necessary to get a property manager?

[raeoflyte]

Why? This isn't going to change this kind of decision for you. If the issue is a tenant driving away other tenants it's still going to come down to you to decide whether to get rid of them...this time with an extra middle-man in the way of information flowing from the exiting tenant to you. Are you having other issue with the rental that you think makes it necessary to get a property manager?


To take some of the pressure off my dad, and give me a little time to decide it I want to jump head first into managing the property. We'll still make the decision about the current tenant. The property manager can manage ending the lease (I know we'll still be involved, and will still have to talk to the tenant), walk through's, deposit, and getting a new tenant.

[Deleted]

Glad you are talking to a lawyer. I don't know what state and city the property lies but it isn't so simple to end all month to month tenancies with 30 days notice. In CA you (the landlord but not the tenant!) must give tenants who have lived in the property a year or longer 60 days notice. In San Francisco, it's difficult to evict (end a tenancy) without cause short of the landlord moving in or renovating.

You mentioned the older lady is from Germany. In Germany it's difficult for a landlord to terminate a lease unless it's because the landlord wants to move in or needs to renovate. In any case you would have to give 90 days notice.

How old is the "older" German lady? And the daughter?

Given the length of tenancy, I'm thinking 90 days notice is probably fair. I would coordinate it after doing an inspection. And while I might say verbally its for renovation I wouldn't put that in writing.

Also, just another observation; the longer a tenant stays the more they think they own the place. In many ways this can be a good thing but you reach that point when they start taking the low rent for granted and start bossing around the other tenants since they've been there the longest.

[raeoflyte]

Also, I think it will make it easier for my dad if the info on the tenant comes from a 3rd party. He is very worst case scenario, and over thinks everything. Even if I step in and take point on the issue, and management issues going forward I think he'll question me more than someone else. (I don't mean that badly against him, he is very respectful. But he is my dad, so I usually want to ask him for advice, not the other way around).

Owning property with family is tricky. That is something I'm not likely to do again.

[raeoflyte]

Also, just another observation; the longer a tenant stays the more they think they own the place. In many ways this can be a good thing but you reach that point when they start taking the low rent for granted and start bossing around the other tenants since they've been there the longest.



I'll bet this is spot on for how they feel.

I was thinking at least 60 days notice, and 90 if the lawyer thinks that is better.

[Cass]

Aw, the bashing of tenants. Just like the good old MSN boards.
Nevermind the good ones with recommendations and stellar credit who help pay your mortgages.
As long as I pay my rent on time and abide by the terms of our agreed upon lease, in my area anyway, this is my home.