FL teen boy wins SYG appeal- punching girl was self defense

[EVT1]

www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Broward-Student-Uses-Stand-Your-Ground-To-Get-Conviction-for-School-Bus-Fight-Tossed-Out-219496211.html

     The student who got into a fight on his bus with a girl initially was adjudicated or found guilty – but he appealed that and won. The youngster, who was charged with battery, has convinced an appellate court that he should have the right to claim he was standing his ground.

     The 4th District Court of Appeals ruling said, "The defense argued the Stand Your Ground law, applied and that T.P. (the middle school student) was lawfully entitled to defend himself, because, according to the bus driver, A.F. (the female student) had used force against T.P. when she grabbed him by his jacket, punched him, and pulled him down into his seat."

     The female student testified the boy was the aggressor.

America's wang strikes again

[billisonboard]

This ruling makes perfect sense to me.  The right to defend yourself against an aggressor should apply to students on a school bus.

[cme1201]

"The defense argued the Stand Your Ground law, applied and that T.P. (the middle school student) was lawfully entitled to defend himself, because, according to the bus driver, A.F. (the female student) had used force against T.P. when she grabbed him by his jacket, punched him, and pulled him down into his seat."

The female student testified the boy was the aggressor.

America's wang strikes again


An adult witness says female aggressor female says male aggressor, in your mind we should believe the female and be damned with the adult, is that what you are saying?

Do you not believe a person should be able to defend themselves against an attack

[fairlycrazy23]

I don't see how this is different than a regular 'self defense' defense.

[billisonboard]

I wonder if the issue is that he was denied a pre-trial hearing to determine whether the case should go forward.

[EVT1]

I think that is the issue since he was found guilty already- will have to go back for an immunity hearing.<br><br>But hey- punching girls- I can see the appeal for the pro-Zimmerman people. <img width="18" height="18" alt=" " src="http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png" text=""><br><br>

[EVT1]

Y- I am criticizing him punching a girl.  Cowardly- like shooting an unarmed kid would be......SYG is a coward's law- at least as it is being used in FL.

[billisonboard]

Aug 14, 2013 9:43:17 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Y- I am criticizing him punching a girl.  Cowardly- ...

You must not have any recent experience with middle school girls.

The days of "real men" needing to just take whatever physical abuse is meted out by females should be gone. If, and that is a question that needs to be answered in the court, this girl was the physical aggressor against another human being then she needs to understand that the other person has a right to fight back - even if the other human being has a penis.

[The Captain]

^ Yea That!

[kent]

Aug 14, 2013 9:43:17 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Y- I am criticizing him punching a girl.  Cowardly- like shooting an unarmed kid would be......SYG is a coward's law- at least as it is being used in FL.

Cowardly?  BS.....

You must not have any recent experience with middle school girls.

The days of "real men" needing to just take whatever physical abuse is meted out by females should be gone.

 Don't treat a man like another man would without expecting consequences for a physical assault.  You can't have it both ways - female physically assaults male and then cries, "You can't hit me back because I'm a girl." 

[billisonboard]

Aug 14, 2013 10:41:43 GMT -5 kent said:

...Don't treat a man like another man would ...

BS IM(not so)HO - Human Beings shouldn't hit other Human Beings

[Deleted]

My older sister got in a fight with a boy in Middle School. The kid's Dad brought him down and when my Mom brought out my sister his Dad said "you got beat up by a girl??!?"   He started it by breaking her necklace right off of her neck, but she finished it. 


And us girls all expected that if we were going to get into a fight with someone in the neighborhood then we should expect an actual fight. 

[djAdvocate]

Aug 14, 2013 8:46:54 GMT -5 fairlycrazy23 said:

I don't see how this is different than a regular 'self defense' defense.

regular self defense requires you to WITHDRAW FROM THE CONFLICT if it is FEASIBLE.

[djAdvocate]

Aug 14, 2013 8:50:02 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

Yeah, I'm not sure what the problem with this ruling is. Seems to me like it was correctly applied in the appeal. Now it goes back to the lower court, where the boy can enter SYG as a defense. I don't necessarily condone boys (or men) hitting females, but I also think that people have a right to defend themselves.

Am I missing something here?

well, here is the problem:

you can start the fight, and then, when the person who you started it with defends himself, you can SYG.  at least that is how i read the law.

in other words, it basically legalizes murder in cases where you have two participants in a conflict.

[Deleted]

Aug 14, 2013 12:27:57 GMT -4 djpolldancer said:

Aug 14, 2013 9:46:54 GMT -4 fairlycrazy23 said:
I don't see how this is different than a regular 'self defense' defense.

regular self defense requires you to WITHDRAW FROM THE CONFLICT if it is FEASIBLE.

But the kids are under 18. Aren't things different for minors? 

[djAdvocate]

Aug 14, 2013 11:29:42 GMT -5 @beerwench said:

But the kids are under 18. Aren't things different for minors? 

i think that self defense cases have no age limit.  if a 5YO shoots her rapist, who is going to challenge that?

[Deleted]

From the link:

In siding with the male student the appellate court stated, "In this case, T.P. had the right to assert a defense under Stand Your Ground. He was not engaged in an unlawful activity, and he had the right to be on the bus going home from school. He had no duty to retreat and, despite the trial court’s misgivings, had the right to ‘meet force with force.’"

"Regardless of the age of the participants, regardless of the environment, that the persons are in, if it indeed is a situation where that person has a lawful right to be such as a child on a school bus, that child has the right to defend him or herself.”


I agree.

[djAdvocate]

Aug 14, 2013 11:34:50 GMT -5 @beerwench said:

From the link:

In siding with the male student the appellate court stated, "In this case, T.P. had the right to assert a defense under Stand Your Ground. He was not engaged in an unlawful activity, and he had the right to be on the bus going home from school. He had no duty to retreat and, despite the trial court’s misgivings, had the right to ‘meet force with force.’"

"Regardless of the age of the participants, regardless of the environment, that the persons are in, if it indeed is a situation where that person has a lawful right to be such as a child on a school bus, that child has the right to defend him or herself.”


I agree.

the right to self defense is not questioned in cases where SYG is NOT invoked.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Aug 14, 2013 7:38:20 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Broward-Student-Uses-Stand-Your-Ground-To-Get-Conviction-for-School-Bus-Fight-Tossed-Out-219496211.html

     The student who got into a fight on his bus with a girl initially was adjudicated or found guilty – but he appealed that and won. The youngster, who was charged with battery, has convinced an appellate court that he should have the right to claim he was standing his ground.

     The 4th District Court of Appeals ruling said, "The defense argued the Stand Your Ground law, applied and that T.P. (the middle school student) was lawfully entitled to defend himself, because, according to the bus driver, A.F. (the female student) had used force against T.P. when she grabbed him by his jacket, punched him, and pulled him down into his seat."

     The female student testified the boy was the aggressor.

America's wang strikes again

I don't see the problem?  You have (and this is important) ADULT eyewitness testimony that the female student used force- grabbing the male student by his jacket, punching him, and pulling him down into his seat.  The female student understandably has a different view, but it's two against one here.  

Once again, I'm not sure how SYG applies- though they apparently used it?  This seems to be another instance where any standard common law application of the principle of self defense would apply.

Just an opinion- but I think it's time you turned off your SYG radar and let your SYG obsession go. Florida will be fine without your little message board crusade against our laws.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Aug 14, 2013 11:34:50 GMT -5 @beerwench said:

From the link:

In siding with the male student the appellate court stated, "In this case, T.P. had the right to assert a defense under Stand Your Ground. He was not engaged in an unlawful activity, and he had the right to be on the bus going home from school. He had no duty to retreat and, despite the trial court’s misgivings, had the right to ‘meet force with force.’"

"Regardless of the age of the participants, regardless of the environment, that the persons are in, if it indeed is a situation where that person has a lawful right to be such as a child on a school bus, that child has the right to defend him or herself.”


I agree.

I love, love, love, LOVE the precedent this sets for kids- and the potential implications for our school bullies in Florida.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Aug 14, 2013 8:50:02 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

Yeah, I'm not sure what the problem with this ruling is. Seems to me like it was correctly applied in the appeal. Now it goes back to the lower court, where the boy can enter SYG as a defense. I don't necessarily condone boys (or men) hitting females, but I also think that people have a right to defend themselves.

Am I missing something here?

I'm not very old fashioned on this anymore- my view is, you defend yourself against bullies.  The fact that in this case the bully was a girl to me has no bearing.  You could say that I have a more 'enlightened' perhaps even feminist view on this.  Police, firefighters, paramedics, now combat- my attitude for the girls of today is: if you can dish it out, you better be able to take it.  I don't have a lot of sympathy for the tough girl act unless or until she loses, then it's the poor girl got beat on by a boy.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Aug 14, 2013 12:41:01 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

Also one more source for more information: www.courthousenews.com/2013/07/26/tpfla.pdf

What is most interesting to me about this case is that the bus driver did not testify at the original trial.

This is likely because the lower court's mind was made up before the kid set foot in the room.

This girl, and her parents need to man up and bow out of this.  She was the aggressor, she was the bully- and he fought back.  Quit crying about it, and let it go.

[Opti]

Sroo, does your other link say anything about why the girl said the boy was the aggressor?
Both articles in your post with two links only had this line:
The girl said T.P. was the aggressor.


Those articles are incomplete and badly written. Because we do not have statements from TP and AF we don't know if something happened *before* she grabbed him. Were they sitting together, did he punch her as he walked past, or what? All we've been given is what the bus driver saw which is likely only stuff he saw because the bus was stopped.

Because of the lack of reporting so far I'm not sure what to think. We don't even have the full story or AF let alone TP's statement. If you think back to the years growing up with siblings or even being parents you know that when an adult notices a fight, they rarely see
the whole thing. I'm OK with boys hitting back as long as its reasonable force to what they are responding to. I wouldn't be OK however with a boy verbally abusing a girl all bus trip,
possibly little physical things too, punching her on the way out of the bus, and trying to be an angel when it became a fight between the two of them. Its possible she just grabbed him and punched as he walked past and he didn't do anything on the trip to inspire such behavior ... but its not that likely. If he just verbally abused her or its some long running feud and she initiated the physical stuff I would agree with the ruling most likely.

[jkapp]

Aug 14, 2013 9:43:17 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Y- I am criticizing him punching a girl.  Cowardly- like shooting an unarmed kid would be......SYG is a coward's law- at least as it is being used in FL.

So you are arguing that women get to beat the shit out of any man and the man has to sit there and take it?

[jkapp]

Aug 14, 2013 11:27:57 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Aug 14, 2013 8:46:54 GMT -5 fairlycrazy23 said:

I don't see how this is different than a regular 'self defense' defense.

regular self defense requires you to WITHDRAW FROM THE CONFLICT if it is FEASIBLE.

They were on a bus...did you expect the boy to jump out the window?

[Sum Dum Gai]

They were on a bus...did you expect the boy to jump out the window?

The incident happened while the bus was stopped and the boy was trying to get off.  The girl grabbed him and pulled him down into a seat while hitting him according to the driver.  Prior to stand your ground he would have had to get back off the bus since he had a path to withdraw.  Instead he hit her back.

I personally have no problem with this ruling.  Children have a right to defend themselves too.  If the girl didn't want to get hit back she should have kept her hands to herself.

[djAdvocate]

Aug 14, 2013 14:22:56 GMT -5 jkapp said:

Aug 14, 2013 11:27:57 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

regular self defense requires you to WITHDRAW FROM THE CONFLICT if it is FEASIBLE.

They were on a bus...did you expect the boy to jump out the window?

it has been a while since i used a bus, but i seem to remember other ways of moving around than that.

[djAdvocate]

Aug 14, 2013 14:41:27 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

They were on a bus...did you expect the boy to jump out the window?

The incident happened while the bus was stopped and the boy was trying to get off.  The girl grabbed him and pulled him down into a seat while hitting him according to the driver.  Prior to stand your ground he would have had to get back off the bus since he had a path to withdraw.  Instead he hit her back.

I personally have no problem with this ruling.  Children have a right to defend themselves too.  If the girl didn't want to get hit back she should have kept her hands to herself.

Dark- do you think SYG was required for this?  i am thinking NOT.  a person has the right to defend themselves in the situation you described WITH OR WITHOUT SYG, imo.

[Sum Dum Gai]

Stand your ground removed the duty to retreat in public places.  A school bus is a public place, so prior to that a judge could have ruled that he had a clear path of escape, since the incident happened right next to the open bus door, and his use of force was excessive.  With stand your ground the duty to retreat is gone, so the only question is who started the fight.  The bus driver says the girl was the aggressor, so he can clearly hit her back.  He could have argued it was self defense either way, but the duty to retreat would make the whole thing a judgment call on the judge's part.

[djAdvocate]

i dig your avatar Sroo.