Elon Musk's "Hyperloop"

[Deleted]

www.sfgate.com/news/article/Musk-s-Hyperloop-idea-High-speed-L-A-S-F-tube-4727603.php

It's certainly the buzz here. I would especially love to hear from you civil engineers who have built big public projects.

My thinking is that it's an interesting concept but I don't think it's going to replace, or in the end significantly reduce, the cost of high speed SF to LA project. Getting a big infrastructure project built is very, very expensive. It's not just the physical construction costs that make a public project expensive. It's all the studies, the public meetings/input and the political deals that need to get done in order to get something in the ground. 

Thoughts?

ETA: I should disclose my "bias". I worked for a privately owned Railroad for 4 years and a local transit agency for 8.5 years in their real estate department. A portion of the tracks/right of way from the private company is likely to be used for High Speed Rail. No, I don't own any of their stock!

[wodehouse]

Essentially it's like what is called a "pig" that is used to clean out pipelines (gas and oil pipelines). The pig is a contraption sent through the pipe (which usually transports only liquid or gas) to clean the pipe's inside surface, it is propelled by compressed air in the line. I was intrigued by Elon's idea, and only saw the connection to "pig" when I saw the sketch of the cars. I am surprised at the small size of the cars in the sketch. I also wonder how the "end plates" will seal against the wall...but on the other hand, I guess they are not intended to support the weight of the car so this is likely not a difficult issue.

I was surprised to read that this would be assembled above-ground. I had thought it would be underground...at least the initial reporting of the transcontinental setup. But in high-seismic areas perhaps this makes sense. But OTOH, Bart goes underground.

I read a few articles indicating that the cost could be very high, especially relative to high-speed trains, or even mag-lev (well, maybe mag-lev is more expensive?).

The thing is, we travel such long distances in this country and high-speed trains (and even Elon's plan) could seem to be the way to go for some of this travel. Why do we not have systems of high-speed trains like there are in Europe?

Bonny, what say you, how does our infrastructure in the US compare to that in the European countries? Is it as shabby in comparison as I am starting to think it is?

[Deleted]

wodehouse,

I'm no expert on this stuff. I joke that I only know enough to be dangerous and my info is a little dated as I left the Transit District in 2003.

Because the corridor line sales from SPTCo to both Caltrain and the LA transit District took so long, major upgrades weren't done for decades. I wouldn't say that things were held together by bubble gum and duct tape  but both SPTCo and the transit districts did the cheapest fixes they could until a long term plan could be put in place. We used to call our section of the right of way the fixer upper railroad.

 Here on the SF Peninsula, the various transit districts (a joint powers authority from the three counties) own Caltrain. There have been massive amounts of capital invested in replacing old rail with continuous welded rail aka Ribbon Rail, remodeling the railroad to allow 4 tracks (so a faster train can pass a local while it's dwelling at station), hundreds of millions of dollars doing grade separations (can't do fast trains where there are at grade crossings-not allowed in the US but allowed in Europe) and of course upgrading signaling and communications systems.

I assume the same has been done in other major urban areas like LA.

And not all of Europe is wonderful. Obviously with the crash in Spain there are problems. Germany and France are in good shape but you have to travel through Belgium to get from Cologne to Paris. The Belgium infrastructure is not great so the train cannot travel at high speeds. Then there are all the labor issues. I've traveled in France during one of the many railroad strikes. It's not fun!

BTW Amtrak is likely to be the operator of any US system for a while. Buying railroad corridor or even doing a deal with trackage rights always involves a concession to personnel. The railroad unions have a pretty lucrative deal wherein they either transfer to the new operator or the buyer has to pay them a 7 year wage buy-out.

These are big, expensive, messy deals.

[wodehouse]

Bonny, makes me want to develop my own super-material, unobtanium, and build a railroad. Oh, I guess that book has been written!

Thanks for the insights on Europe.

[Deleted]

Aug 13, 2013 12:47:18 GMT -5 wodehouse said:

Bonny, makes me want to develop my own super-material, unobtanium, and build a railroad. Oh, I guess that book has been written!

Thanks for the insights on Europe.

Lol, it sure seem like that doesn't it? I admire the planners who have the vision, the faith that it will be built and the persistence to get it through the process.

I'd be a raving alcoholic by the time something was built 20 years later and there would probably be a few dead bodies too!

[Sum Dum Gai]

Honestly I don't see how any large building project gets done in this state.  The property owners are fucking insane.  The Hyperloop idea sounds pretty damn sweet, but I don't even want to imagine dealing with every property owner that's going to object because it spoils their view, makes too much noise, isn't safe, will rip a hole in the fabric of space time, is a plot by the lizard men to enslave humanity, etc., etc., etc. 

There's not enough booze in the world to get through those public comment meetings, planning sessions, state inspections, remediations, buy out negotiations for the sections of private land it'll have to run through, and the legal challenges which will undoubtedly happen. 

[Angel!]

Awesome idea, but will never happen even when proposed by Musk.  Way too futuristic for most people to get behind.  No way it would happen for $6 Billion either.  If you look at his cost estimate it is just for the construction and parts and that is with some huge assumptions.  But he has no funds for the planning, design, or public process. Design for something that has never been built before is going to cost a fortune and that is on top of what it costs to design any sort of transit system.

[Deleted]

Aug 13, 2013 15:10:00 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

Honestly I don't see how any large building project gets done in this state.  The property owners are fucking insane.  The Hyperloop idea sounds pretty damn sweet, but I don't even want to imagine dealing with every property owner that's going to object because it spoils their view, makes too much noise, isn't safe, will rip a hole in the fabric of space time, is a plot by the lizard men to enslave humanity, etc., etc., etc. 

There's not enough booze in the world to get through those public comment meetings, planning sessions, state inspections, remediations, buy out negotiations for the sections of private land it'll have to run through, and the legal challenges which will undoubtedly happen. 

This why preserving the rail corridors are so important and a willingness for the agencies to pay for a "corridor premium". There will always be extra property needed (especially for by-passes, grade separations, parking lots for stations, et cetera) but those are tiny compared to creating a whole new corridor and dealing with thousands of property owners!

[Sum Dum Gai]

He wants the majority of it to run down the median on I-5, which is government land and easier to deal with.  It's the bits at either end that will run into LA and SF that would be a nightmare.  Even if you run them down rail corridors you'll still have property owners complaining.  They wanted to run lightrail through the old railroad corridor in Santa Cruz and all the homeowners were up in arms over it.  Said it would cause too much noise.  This is from people who built homes within 50' of a friggin railroad track.  Yeah it was going to be noisy, that's what you get when you live close enough to spit on passing trains... morons.