FL man stands ground against wife- posts pic on Facebook

[EVT1]

Self-proclaimed neighborhood watchman to boot- horrible.

www.nbcmiami.com/news/Woman-Shot-and-Killed-in-South-Miami-Husband-Admits-to-Killing-Police-218860341.html

Please do not claim self defense.

[hurley1980]

I read about this yesterday, and SYG laws were the first thing that came to mind when he said she was punching him, and he refused to take it anymore.  I wouldn't be surprised to see a lawyer pull the SYG card.

[EVT1]

I have no doubt he is going to try self defense- he already laid the groundwork for it.  Even claimed she had a knife at one point but he got it away from her and put it back up

Why did this have to happen in FL.......... Just better not get an all women jury for this one.

Remember- if there is even one reasonable doubt that he did not act in self defense he walks- thanks again FL.

Calling Mark O'Mara

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Aug 8, 2013 19:50:55 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Self-proclaimed neighborhood watchman to boot- horrible.

www.nbcmiami.com/news/Woman-Shot-and-Killed-in-South-Miami-Husband-Admits-to-Killing-Police-218860341.html

Please do not claim self defense.

Well, first of all- even if self defense is claimed, SYG would not apply because he was already in his own home.  This is a tragedy that could happen in all 50 states because guns are legal in the house in all 50 states.  This has no CCW, and now SYG component.  It's just your plain old basic domestic violence tragedy.

[EVT1]

SYG changed the burden of proof and other aspects of self defense- so the law is in play period if the guy claims it- and he will just wait.

As you were so fond of pointing out in the GZ case- the prosecutors will have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it wasn't self defense.  He was being punched and kicked after all- about all it takes in FL to shoot back.

10-1 if it was the woman shooting the man it would not be unreasonable to picture self defense.

It's FL- flip a coin whether he ever does time.

[billisonboard]

Here is the statute itself:  www.husseinandwebber.com/florida-stand-your-ground-statute.html
Here is a discussion of the statute:  www.husseinandwebber.com/stand_your_ground.html

Both are worth reading.

[EVT1]

Good info- and I was wrong about one point- SYG technically did not change the burden of proof directly- case law did it interpreting it. 

I posted it on the GZ thread- but this is a good explanation of the FL problem- never mind the GZ case:

www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2013/07/george_zimmerman_and_self_defense_why_it_was_too_easy_for_him_to_get_off.html

     Requiring prosecutors to disprove self-defense is also a particularly bad idea in states that allow people to carry guns in public places. The more people carry guns, the more reasonable the fear that the guy you’re fighting with might be reaching for his. Or, if you are carrying a gun and rolling around on the ground with another person, like Martin and Zimmerman, you could fear that your opponent might be about to grab your gun—as Zimmerman claimed in his statements to police. Since your fear needs only be reasonable, not correct, a mistaken but reasonable fear that the other person is reaching for a gun legally justifies killing an unarmed person. The other person could have been reaching for a cellphone, but in a state that lets people carry concealed weapons, it would be harder for the prosecutor to prove that your fear of a gun was not reasonable. The more guns, the more grounds for self-defense—and the more licenses for violence.

[Opti]

Its sad to me he just didn't leave her days, weeks, or even years ago.
I find it kind of sick though, that he posted the pic to FB.
I wonder what the reasoning was behind it. Anger/hatred against the dead wife or hoping to
taint the jury pool right away?

[djAdvocate]

Aug 9, 2013 12:45:51 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Aug 8, 2013 19:50:55 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Self-proclaimed neighborhood watchman to boot- horrible.

www.nbcmiami.com/news/Woman-Shot-and-Killed-in-South-Miami-Husband-Admits-to-Killing-Police-218860341.html

Please do not claim self defense.

Well, first of all- even if self defense is claimed, SYG would not apply because he was already in his own home. 

that makes no sense.  if i burgle your house, you can't defend it?

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Aug 10, 2013 12:19:29 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Aug 9, 2013 12:45:51 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Well, first of all- even if self defense is claimed, SYG would not apply because he was already in his own home. 

that makes no sense.  if i burgle your house, you can't defend it?

SYG expanded the "Castle Doctrine" to "anyplace you are lawfully allowed to be"- basically eliminating the "duty to retreat" if you're in a public place, your car, etc.  Basically, it took the "Castle Doctrine" and said YOU are your castle.  Inside your home, there's never a duty to retreat- so the SYG law has no bearing on this case.  Further, it's doubtful that self defense applies in this case.  A statement by the victim that she intends to leave represents the exact opposite of a threat.  The fact is, that he could no longer control his spouse, so he shot her.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Aug 10, 2013 10:09:57 GMT -5 Opti said:

Its sad to me he just didn't leave her days, weeks, or even years ago.
I find it kind of sick though, that he posted the pic to FB.
I wonder what the reasoning was behind it. Anger/hatred against the dead wife or hoping to
taint the jury pool right away?

Why isn't it sad that she didn't leave him?  

Maybe his reasoning was an insanity defense?

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Aug 9, 2013 23:25:35 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Good info- and I was wrong about one point- SYG technically did not change the burden of proof directly- case law did it interpreting it. 

I posted it on the GZ thread- but this is a good explanation of the FL problem- never mind the GZ case:

www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2013/07/george_zimmerman_and_self_defense_why_it_was_too_easy_for_him_to_get_off.html

     Requiring prosecutors to disprove self-defense is also a particularly bad idea in states that allow people to carry guns in public places. The more people carry guns, the more reasonable the fear that the guy you’re fighting with might be reaching for his. Or, if you are carrying a gun and rolling around on the ground with another person, like Martin and Zimmerman, you could fear that your opponent might be about to grab your gun—as Zimmerman claimed in his statements to police. Since your fear needs only be reasonable, not correct, a mistaken but reasonable fear that the other person is reaching for a gun legally justifies killing an unarmed person. The other person could have been reaching for a cellphone, but in a state that lets people carry concealed weapons, it would be harder for the prosecutor to prove that your fear of a gun was not reasonable. The more guns, the more grounds for self-defense—and the more licenses for violence.

This is interesting theory, but the reality- which is borne out by the data- is that in states that allow people to carry guns, the less likely it is that you're going to be involved in a violent altercation at all.  The reason a prosecutor has to prove it wasn't self defense is the same reason the prosecutor must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was manslaughter, or some degree of murder.  The burden of proof is still on the prosecution, but with the added benefit for the defendant- which is where all benefit should go- that they do not have to "prove" their case.

[Opti]

Why isn't it sad that she didn't leave him?

Abusers are rarely the ones to leave so I don't expect it.
Abusers want someone to blame and use for their own issues. Why would they leave?

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Aug 10, 2013 14:22:22 GMT -5 Opti said:

Why isn't it sad that she didn't leave him?

Abusers are rarely the ones to leave so I don't expect it.
Abusers want someone to blame and use for their own issues. Why would they leave?

Ah, you're buying that she's the abuser?  I'll be honest- haven't read the story.  Is there a history of domestic violence with her?  

[Opti]

I've only read one article and this is unlikely to be a big law issue. Yes, I'm open to the idea she beats him with her fists.

[Tennesseer]

The alleged shooter is supposedly the author of several on-line books including one on marriage counseling.  I wonder if he took his own advice.

No bail for Florida man accused of killing wife, posting photo to Facebook

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Aug 10, 2013 16:25:41 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

The alleged shooter is supposedly the author of several on-line books including one on marriage counseling.  I wonder if he took his own advice.

No bail for Florida man accused of killing wife, posting photo to Facebook

He also fights ghosts.  He better be good at it, or he's fucked now, huh? 

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Aug 10, 2013 14:50:13 GMT -5 Opti said:

I've only read one article and this is unlikely to be a big law issue. Yes, I'm open to the idea she beats him with her fists.

I guess I'm open to the facts.  If Zimmerman wasn't wounded enough for you, I doubt this guy's injuries are going to impress you, though. 

[djAdvocate]

Aug 10, 2013 14:10:44 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Aug 10, 2013 12:19:29 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

that makes no sense.  if i burgle your house, you can't defend it?

SYG expanded the "Castle Doctrine" to "anyplace you are lawfully allowed to be"- basically eliminating the "duty to retreat" if you're in a public place, your car, etc.  Basically, it took the "Castle Doctrine" and said YOU are your castle.  Inside your home, there's never a duty to retreat- so the SYG law has no bearing on this case. 

ok.  sorry i misunderstood you.

[cereb]

For a very short article, there are about 20 clues that this was a murder. Slam dunk.

[Opti]

I guess I'm open to the facts. If Zimmerman wasn't wounded enough for you, I doubt this guy's injuries are going to impress you, though.

I think you might be reading more into my comments than what I actually said and meant.
I feel its possible he was abused by her hitting him with her fists this particular time and in the past. What I didn't say is whether I felt he had the right to shoot her or not.


So here it is. If he indeed did get the knife away from her and he was the one with the gun only contending with her fists. I think he wasn't in fear for his life and could have walked out the door only to return to move out. Unless some other information comes to light it appears he could have got divorced, walked out and never come back, instead of choosing to murder her. I think he got very angry and chose to shoot her because it was easy and quick. Given he posted it to FB he may have actually been proud of himself for doing so.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Aug 10, 2013 20:39:09 GMT -5 cereb said:

For a very short article, there are about 20 clues that this was a murder. Slam dunk.

It would seem to be, yes.  According to the reports I've read in the Miami Herald, he states that she pulled a kitchen knife and he successfully disarmed her.  Doesn't strike much "reasonable fear" of serious bodily arm or death if you ask me- when he's got a gun, he's able to disarm her.  Witnesses- her co-workers- claim he was abusive and had kicked her out several times but had always come back begging her to move back in.  Sounds like he's the controlling and abusive one.