Ethics in law enforcement??

[OldCoyote]

Phoenix AZ, Kidnap capital of the world  " NOT"

In 2008 Phoenix police state that there were 358 kidnapping that year

because of that Phoenix collected millions of $ in fed crime money. Actually $1.7 mill 

www.abc15.com/dpp/news/local_news/investigations/truth-behind-phoenix-kidnapping-statistics

Not so fast said police Sargent Phil Roberts these numbers are not right, gets fired.

www.abc15.com/dpp/news/local_news/investigations/truth-behind-phoenix-kidnapping-statistics

An independant law group  does a study and now states that there was 668 kidnappings

www.azcentral.com/ic/community/phoenix-kidnapping-report.pdf

Now it appears that there was only 48 actual kidnappings in 2008, this is from an internal memo.

media2.abc15.com/html/pdf/iceintelemail.pdf

If you tried to defraud the government out money like this ,you would be in jail.

Why are not these people in jail??  

[mmhmm]

I don't have a clue, oldcoyote.  I don't live in Arizona, so it's definitely out of my league.  It sounds like something for the people of Arizona to tackle.  Are there any organized groups in your vicinity you might contact, or join, to try to get something going to investigate this?  That's the only thing I can think of besides writing your congressmen and local representation.

[fairlycrazy23]

Since kidnapping is a federal crime, shouldn't the fbi know how many there are? And I don't think you need to inflate it, nearly one a week seems very high.

[tallguy]

It appears that they have a very broad definition of kidnapping.  While most of us use the term more strictly, the Arizona Revised Statutes say:

A.R.S. section 13-1304:
Kidnapping; classification; consecutive sentence
A. A person commits kidnapping by knowingly restraining another person with the intent to:
1. Hold the victim for ransom, as a shield or hostage; or
2. Hold the victim for involuntary servitude; or
3. Inflict death, physical injury or a sexual offense on the victim, or to otherwise aid in
the commission of a felony; or
4. Place the victim or a third person in reasonable apprehension of imminent physical
injury to the victim or the third person; or
5. Interfere with the performance of a governmental or political function; or
6. Seize or exercise control over any airplane, train, bus, ship or other vehicle.

 So, home invasion robbery?  Kidnapping.  Carjacking?  Kidnapping.  Rape?  Kidnapping.  Bunch of other things?  Kidnapping.

According to their (overly broad) statute, it qualifies.  To the question of using such statistics to gain federal grant money, yes, I'll agree with you.  Unethical. 

[fairlycrazy23]

Jul 28, 2013 10:58:58 GMT -5 tallguy said:

It appears that they have a very broad definition of kidnapping.  While most of us use the term more strictly, the Arizona Revised Statutes say:

A.R.S. section 13-1304:
Kidnapping; classification; consecutive sentence
A. A person commits kidnapping by knowingly restraining another person with the intent to:
1. Hold the victim for ransom, as a shield or hostage; or
2. Hold the victim for involuntary servitude; or
3. Inflict death, physical injury or a sexual offense on the victim, or to otherwise aid in
the commission of a felony; or
4. Place the victim or a third person in reasonable apprehension of imminent physical
injury to the victim or the third person; or
5. Interfere with the performance of a governmental or political function; or
6. Seize or exercise control over any airplane, train, bus, ship or other vehicle.

 So, home invasion robbery?  Kidnapping.  Carjacking?  Kidnapping.  Rape?  Kidnapping.  Bunch of other things?  Kidnapping.

According to their (overly broad) statute, it qualifies.  To the question of using such statistics to gain federal grant money, yes, I'll agree with you.  Unethical. 

I think federal law requires transportation or at least the intent to unlawfully transport someone.
I think the federal government should be able to cross reference the numbers provided by Arizona with the FBI and determine something is out of whack.

[happyhoix]

I don't know anything about this AT ALL, so I'm just guessing, but doesn't Mexico have a large number of kidnappings, and might there be Mexican drug gang members coming over the border into Arizona to kidnap other gang members - who are illegal aliens?

So I'm wondering if the high numbers might be where the Arizona sheriff is attempting to extrapolate the number of kidnappings he believes is taking place on Arizona soil  - but not necessarily the kidnapping of Arizona (or American) citizens?

If this is taking place, I'm guessing the victims (or their families) aren't going to be reporting the crime to American authorities, so the real extent of activity might be hard to calculate - kind of like estimating rapes, another crime that is known to be under reported.

Or it could be the Arizona police are just trumping up numbers to get extra federal cash.

[Deleted]

Actually, pharmaceutical companies defraud the government all the time and no one ever goes to jail.... If they would, it might stop...

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jul 28, 2013 10:33:01 GMT -5 OldCoyote said:

Phoenix AZ, Kidnap capital of the world  " NOT"

In 2008 Phoenix police state that there were 358 kidnapping that year

because of that Phoenix collected millions of $ in fed crime money. Actually $1.7 mill 

www.abc15.com/dpp/news/local_news/investigations/truth-behind-phoenix-kidnapping-statistics

Not so fast said police Sargent Phil Roberts these numbers are not right, gets fired.

www.abc15.com/dpp/news/local_news/investigations/truth-behind-phoenix-kidnapping-statistics

An independant law group  does a study and now states that there was 668 kidnappings

www.azcentral.com/ic/community/phoenix-kidnapping-report.pdf

Now it appears that there was only 48 actual kidnappings in 2008, this is from an internal memo.

media2.abc15.com/html/pdf/iceintelemail.pdf

If you tried to defraud the government out money like this ,you would be in jail.

Why are not these people in jail??  

From an independent study there's 668 kidnappings, but an "internal memo" says 48.  Why are we putting all the credibility on a memo?  And in any case, should this not be easy to figure out- how many kidnappings were reported.  Make every police precinct, every division or what have you- cough up their data.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jul 29, 2013 7:10:41 GMT -5 fairlycrazy23 said:

Jul 28, 2013 10:58:58 GMT -5 tallguy said:

It appears that they have a very broad definition of kidnapping.  While most of us use the term more strictly, the Arizona Revised Statutes say:

 So, home invasion robbery?  Kidnapping.  Carjacking?  Kidnapping.  Rape?  Kidnapping.  Bunch of other things?  Kidnapping.

According to their (overly broad) statute, it qualifies.  To the question of using such statistics to gain federal grant money, yes, I'll agree with you.  Unethical. 

I think federal law requires transportation or at least the intent to unlawfully transport someone.
I think the federal government should be able to cross reference the numbers provided by Arizona with the FBI and determine something is out of whack.

Which brings me to- isn't kidnapping ALWAYS an FBI case?  Am I incorrect about this- I could be. I don't even know where I got this idea- but somewhere in the haystack of my mind there's a kidnapping needle that says that all kidnappings get to go to the feds.

[fairlycrazy23]

Jul 29, 2013 10:05:11 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Jul 29, 2013 7:10:41 GMT -5 fairlycrazy23 said:

I think federal law requires transportation or at least the intent to unlawfully transport someone.
I think the federal government should be able to cross reference the numbers provided by Arizona with the FBI and determine something is out of whack.

Which brings me to- isn't kidnapping ALWAYS an FBI case?  Am I incorrect about this- I could be. I don't even know where I got this idea- but somewhere in the haystack of my mind there's a kidnapping needle that says that all kidnappings get to go to the feds.

All kidnappings by federal definition are federal cases, but those require transport, or intent to transport.

There where nearly 700 kidnappings by the broad Arizona definition, however, only about 50 where ransom or border related, which I actually think is very high, but I don't live in a big city.

I suspect that some of the people quoting the high number really didn't know their own broad definition of kidnapping that gave them such a high number.
But i'm sure that some of them did.

[happyhoix]

Make every police precinct, every division or what have you- cough up their data.

This probably tends to be an unreported crime, especially if it's drug related kidnappings between various drug gangs.

Maybe the high numbers are based on estimates by the police.

Or someone is just fudging the numbers.

[OldCoyote]

It was fudging numbers,  The chief of police said  there was 358 kidnappings.
 
It was a Sargent that questioned the numbers.

Before it was done, The chief resigned,  the Sargent was fired  and a self appointed group of all Pro-law enforcement people did their research, came up with 668 kidnappings .
trying to cover the Chief ass.

I think it almost to the point if a couple had an argument,one was not allowed to leave under their guide line it was kidnapping.

The Sargent sued, now has his job back,  It's going to cost us taxpayers a bunch of money. 

[mmhmm]

This thread hasn't gone in a political direction.  It seems to fit better in Current Events.  I'll move it there.

mmhmm, P&M Moderator