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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2013 11:04:56 GMT -5
Worse....
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jul 23, 2013 11:10:25 GMT -5
Archie's being obtuse. My comment was meant for him. The rest of you are just being hypocritical. every body is a hypocrite about something. Perhaps. But I should think our collective goal ought to be becoming less hypocritical.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 23, 2013 11:13:15 GMT -5
i'll be less hypocritical about things that really matter. as of right now, I will get a perverse pleasure out of people doing the same type of stuff to the WBC that they do to other people. Nobody got hurt, no property was destroyed, the church is just being annoyed.
ETA: And how would I feel if someone did this to one of my family member's graves? I wouldn't care. I don't think there is an afterlife, but if there is, the grave is just a marker, it doesn't have any special significance for me.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jul 23, 2013 11:19:11 GMT -5
i'll be less hypocritical about things that really matter. as of right now, I will get a perverse pleasure out of people doing the same type of stuff to the WBC that they do to other people. Nobody got hurt, no property was destroyed, the church is just being annoyed. That's just what the world needs. Mr. Phelps with more fire in his belly, buoyed a legitimate claim of persecution. Then it's a fundamental difference in our thinking. If somebody used my mother's grave as a prop in a public mockery of my beliefs, it would upset me.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 23, 2013 11:21:11 GMT -5
i'll be less hypocritical about things that really matter. as of right now, I will get a perverse pleasure out of people doing the same type of stuff to the WBC that they do to other people. Nobody got hurt, no property was destroyed, the church is just being annoyed. That's just what the world needs. Mr. Phelps with more fire in his belly, buoyed a legitimate claim of persecution. we disagree on the "legitimate" persecution. They're "making a dead person gay." That's just asinine when you think about. You can't turn someone gay, especially when they're dead.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2013 11:21:55 GMT -5
Or alive.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 23, 2013 11:23:03 GMT -5
True. Kissing is pretty bad. They're making a public spectacle with the express intent of persecuting their fellow man. It's no different from the WBC theatrics, and the fact that it's reactionary doesn't justify it. I find it different. IMO WBC deserves such treatment for the way they have acted over the years. Whereas, I don't think Matthew Shepard or his family deserved the way WBC treated them. If WBC thinks there actions are appropriate, then they should have no problem with others treating them the same way. If that makes me a hypocrite, well I really don't care. Sometimes people need a taste of their own medicine. And since I am not a big fan of turn the other cheek & I think WBC are a bunch of assholes, well they deserve it.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 23, 2013 11:23:24 GMT -5
I know.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 23, 2013 11:24:30 GMT -5
They're making a public spectacle with the express intent of persecuting their fellow man. It's no different from the WBC theatrics, and the fact that it's reactionary doesn't justify it. I find it different. IMO WBC deserves such treatment for the way they have acted over the years. Whereas, I don't think Matthew Shepard or his family deserved the way WBC treated them. If WBC thinks there actions are appropriate, then they should have no problem with others treating them the same way. If that makes me a hypocrite, well I really don't care. Sometimes people need a taste of their own medicine. And since I am not a big fan of turn the other cheek & I think WBC are a bunch of assholes, well they deserve it. But WBC is different. God told them he hates homosexuals, so it makes it OK.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 23, 2013 11:29:11 GMT -5
My impression of the "Satanic" action was that it was the opposite of hypocrisy and that the entire purpose of the Satanic stunt was to highlight the hypocrisy of the WBC.
The Satanic stunt implies that the WBC has established the rules of play - that it is not only acceptable but imperative that each person attempt to impose his/her personal beliefs on others. The mechanism established by the WBC of forcing one's personal beliefs is a public stunt to embarrass, outrage or humiliate people.
So the WBC has set the rules of engagement and the Satanic group is responding using the rules that the WBC itself established.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Jul 23, 2013 11:31:57 GMT -5
The Satanists are not evil. Humiliating a dead woman by acting out some perverse ritual at her grave site--even if it is meant to be a farce--is evil. Shameful. Immoral. Unethical. Use whatever term suits you. How do you humiliate a dead person?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2013 11:32:37 GMT -5
Ugh. Please don't tell me that Virgil's denomination supports the Westboro's.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2013 11:33:34 GMT -5
Humiliating a dead woman by acting out some perverse ritual at her grave site--even if it is meant to be a farce--is evil. Shameful. Immoral. Unethical. Use whatever term suits you. How do you humiliate a dead person? I don't know, but I'll bet it's illegal!
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 23, 2013 11:34:49 GMT -5
How do you humiliate a dead person? I don't know, but I'll bet it's illegal! and immoral and unethical.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 23, 2013 11:35:17 GMT -5
Ugh. Please don't tell me that Virgil's denomination supports the Westboro's. I think you might be onto something there..................
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jul 23, 2013 11:40:10 GMT -5
It does, and my comments are directed to anybody who does care. If you don't care, by all means disregard them.
The absurdity isn't relevant. If the WBC went to Harvey Milk's grave site and taped a skit about Mr. Milk being raped by an elephant, the absurdity of that stunt wouldn't be relevant either.
The only facts of relevance are that the stunt is malicious and carries an obvious message.
They do not, and I do not.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Jul 23, 2013 11:41:56 GMT -5
Then you probably shouldn't do a bunch of reprehensible, indefensible, vicious and hateful things that make most of the rational world not give a rat's ass if something upsets you. The Westboro folks have taken action to ensure that a lot of people can derive joy from them being upset. My advice is don't do that, and then you should be fine. ETA: WTF? I was quoting, and responding to, this: If somebody used my mother's grave as a prop in a public mockery of my beliefs, it would upset me.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 23, 2013 11:44:13 GMT -5
This could be said of the WBC stunts as well. Again, the WBC defined the terms of engagement here and the "Satanic" group is responding within the parameters set by the WBC. If the WBC has an objection and would like to request that the Satanists desist and act respectfully, perhaps the WBC should start by reforming their own actions as a gesture of goodwill. I don't like either the WBC or the "Satanist" actions. They're disrespectful and purposefully hurtful. But I recognize that WBC started the war and chose the weapons, so it's a little silly for them to now protest being hoist[ed] by their own petard.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 23, 2013 11:44:38 GMT -5
What?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 23, 2013 11:46:45 GMT -5
Then you probably shouldn't do a bunch of reprehensible, indefensible, vicious and hateful things that make most of the rational world not give a rat's ass if something upsets you. The Westboro folks have taken action to ensure that a lot of people can derive joy from them being upset. My advice is don't do that, and then you should be fine. ETA: WTF? I was quoting, and responding to, this: If somebody used my mother's grave as a prop in a public mockery of my beliefs, it would upset me.
And it would upset most people, and I understand that, so I generally would not do it to people who aren't asshats. WBC have proven their asshattiness multiple times, so they can't expect that they will be treated kindly and with respect.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 23, 2013 11:50:13 GMT -5
Then you probably shouldn't do a bunch of reprehensible, indefensible, vicious and hateful things that make most of the rational world not give a rat's ass if something upsets you. The Westboro folks have taken action to ensure that a lot of people can derive joy from them being upset. My advice is don't do that, and then you should be fine. ETA: WTF? I was quoting, and responding to, this: If somebody used my mother's grave as a prop in a public mockery of my beliefs, it would upset me.
And it would upset most people, and I understand that, so I generally would not do it to people who aren't asshats. WBC have proven their asshattiness multiple times, so they can't expect that they will be treated kindly and with respect. When you picket funerals and celebrate the deaths of certain individuals, I think you certainly can't expect kindness and respect. I think you should consider yourself lucky if you don't get shot for such things. Asshattiness...LOL.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Jul 23, 2013 11:50:45 GMT -5
It does, and my comments are directed to anybody who does care. If you don't care, by all means disregard them. The absurdity isn't relevant. If the WBC went to Harvey Milk's grave site and taped a skit about Mr. Milk being raped by an elephant, the absurdity of that stunt wouldn't be relevant either. The only facts of relevance are that the stunt is malicious and carries an obvious message.
They do not, and I do not. Yes, the message is "stop being both insane and hateful".
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jul 23, 2013 11:53:58 GMT -5
Then you probably shouldn't do a bunch of reprehensible, indefensible, vicious and hateful things that make most of the rational world not give a rat's ass if something upsets you. The Westboro folks have taken action to ensure that a lot of people can derive joy from them being upset. My advice is don't do that, and then you should be fine. This is about our individual reactions to the WBC's and the satirists' antics. Nobody is claiming that the WBC's antics aren't every bit as deplorable. Angel said it candidly: if you're "not a big fan of turn the other cheek [and] think WBC are a bunch of assholes [and] they deserve it", my admonitions aren't going to mean anything to you. And feel free to support that response if you wish to endorse those rules. The message is "Eff you, Fred Phelps." Who says that they do?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2013 12:00:11 GMT -5
And feel free to support that response if you wish to endorse those rules. Well, if "endorsing those rules" is the price we pay for freedom of speech then I must acquiesce.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Jul 23, 2013 12:03:06 GMT -5
Then you probably shouldn't do a bunch of reprehensible, indefensible, vicious and hateful things that make most of the rational world not give a rat's ass if something upsets you. The Westboro folks have taken action to ensure that a lot of people can derive joy from them being upset. My advice is don't do that, and then you should be fine. This is about our individual reactions to the WBC's and the satirists' antics.
Nobody is claiming that the WBC's antics aren't every bit as deplorable. Angel said it candidly: if you're "not a big fan of turn the other cheek [and] think WBC are a bunch of assholes [and] they deserve it", my admonitions aren't going to mean anything to you. And feel free to support that response if you wish to endorse those rules. The message is "Eff you, Fred Phelps." And your individual reaction what that if someone did that to your mother's grave, you would be upset. I would be upset, too. But I haven't done a bunch of vile and hurtful things that would make even the kindest among us WANT to hurt me. The same cannot be said of those folks. You reap what you sow.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jul 23, 2013 12:24:44 GMT -5
True enough. But that doesn't mean we should approve of either the reaping or the sowing.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 23, 2013 12:25:27 GMT -5
The "ritual" is performance art. Clues are many and varied, including the strap on horns and patently silly claims of "conversion." The purpose of this performance art is to point out how one's perfectly legal actions may be technically legal but ethically immoral, hurtful and just plain wrong. By focusing on critiquing the act contained in the performance art, you're missing the entire point. Whether you're missing the point because you didn't get that it was performance art or because you're being deliberately obtuse is unknown. But the point isn't whether it's OK to have a graveside ritual that goes against deeply held beliefs of the dead person and his/her family. The point is whether hurtful public stunts done to force your beliefs on others are acceptable. And if you conclude those stunts are not acceptable, the recipient of your ire should be the WBC, not the performance artists who pointed out the issue, IMHO.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Jul 23, 2013 12:29:56 GMT -5
So we all subscribe to the eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth theory?
Would anyone here TRULY tell their kids this is the way to react to an injustice?
Is this the example (on either side) we want the next generation to follow?
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 23, 2013 12:36:52 GMT -5
So we all subscribe to the eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth theory? Would anyone here TRULY tell their kids this is the way to react to an injustice? Is this the example (on either side) we want the next generation to follow? Sometimes yes. Sometimes eye for eye, tooth for tooth is the best reaction when other methods aren't working. And I will absolutely teach my kids this. I also agree with Milee that this is more a performance than anything. No one believes they are making a dead woman gay. They are making a point. A point which I find funny and appropriate given the circumstances.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2013 12:38:55 GMT -5
The WBC protests are a blip on a radar screen in my life and I intend to keep it that way. So, no, these methods will not be suggested to my kids.
And I am hopeful that someone's sexuality is a non-issue for future generations, so these "reactions" will be unnecessary. << fingers crossed >>
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