The message

[mrsdutt]

Jul 12, 2013 13:36:49 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Jul 12, 2013 13:17:49 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

An all powerful all knowing being needs his ego stroked by us on a regular basis? 

This is what I have never understood.  This is like me needing to be worshipped by a colony of ants.  Actually probably even more extreme than that - Me needing to be worshipped by bacteria.

If God exists & the bible is accurate, then all I can say is it seems God is like a child creating us as an ant-farm to fuck with, especially when you read through the old testament.  Maybe he matured in the new testament when he had a son & all.  God basically is setting man up for failure & watching the results.  Why make rules he knows we won't follow, create us with urges & then expects us to ignore them, creates a universe where he doesn't prove his existence & then expect us to have faith?  The whole damn thing doesn't make sense if you are believing him omnipotent, all-loving, & good.

I think God made some rules to protect us from ourselves. Our society doesn't follow many of them anymore, and the results are not pretty.

Just a thought:  No disrespect to the God I adore.  Is it possible He knew what we were capable of, but not know what choices we would make?  Each of us.  Perhaps He tried to fix things and only came up with the real solution through His Son?

If a person doesn't believe in God, then it's impossible to believe God is omnipotent.  So why would DARK believe that stuff and not believe in His existence?  A very serious question on this end, DARK.

[Sum Dum Gai]

If a person doesn't believe in God, then it's impossible to believe God is omnipotent. So why would DARK believe that stuff and not believe in His existence? A very serious question on this end, DARK.

I don't believe in god as portrayed by any religion I've ever looked at.  I was raised Christian but the inconsistencies were too much for me.  I look at organized religion and I see a tool created by man to control his fellow men.  That's all.  I see nothing divine there at all.  If there is a single creator of the earth and heavens I think it and I get along just fine.  I doubt its existence and I don't think it gives a shit.

The reason I don't believe in the version of god I was given as a child is because of things like the logical inconsistency of an omniscient being having to start over with the human race after wiping it out in a flood.  If he was omniscient he knew it was going to go down that way in the first place.  Half the church leaders I asked questions of said you can't doubt any part of it.  The whole thing has to be literally true and you just have to have faith.  The other half said some parts are literally true and some parts are allegory and they were happy to chalk up any seeming inconsistencies as allegory, story embellishment, or mans imperfect understanding of god's message when writing it down in the first place.  I could never do it.  I was too literal minded to believe it was all the gospel truth, and unable to selectively believe parts.  Once I started doubting some of it, I started doubting all of it.

[Angel!]

Jul 12, 2013 15:02:44 GMT -5 mrsdutt said:

Jul 12, 2013 13:36:49 GMT -5 Angel! said:

This is what I have never understood.  This is like me needing to be worshipped by a colony of ants.  Actually probably even more extreme than that - Me needing to be worshipped by bacteria.

If God exists & the bible is accurate, then all I can say is it seems God is like a child creating us as an ant-farm to fuck with, especially when you read through the old testament.  Maybe he matured in the new testament when he had a son & all.  God basically is setting man up for failure & watching the results.  Why make rules he knows we won't follow, create us with urges & then expects us to ignore them, creates a universe where he doesn't prove his existence & then expect us to have faith?  The whole damn thing doesn't make sense if you are believing him omnipotent, all-loving, & good.

I think God made some rules to protect us from ourselves. Our society doesn't follow many of them anymore, and the results are not pretty.

Just a thought:  No disrespect to the God I adore.  Is it possible He knew what we were capable of, but not know what choices we would make?  Each of us.  Perhaps He tried to fix things and only came up with the real solution through His Son?

If a person doesn't believe in God, then it's impossible to believe God is omnipotent.  So why would DARK believe that stuff and not believe in His existence?  A very serious question on this end, DARK.

Dark is just repeating what Christians seem to say about God - that he is omnipotent. 

I don't have to believe in zombies to know that if one bites you, then you will become a zombie also.  You don't have to believe something exists to have knowledge of the commonly associated attributes of that thing.

[mrsdutt]

Jul 12, 2013 15:07:15 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

If a person doesn't believe in God, then it's impossible to believe God is omnipotent. So why would DARK believe that stuff and not believe in His existence? A very serious question on this end, DARK.

I don't believe in god as portrayed by any religion I've ever looked at.  I was raised Christian but the inconsistencies were too much for me.  I look at organized religion and I see a tool created by man to control his fellow men.  That's all.  I see nothing divine there at all.  If there is a single creator of the earth and heavens I think it and I get along just fine.  I doubt its existence and I don't think it gives a shit.

The reason I don't believe in the version of god I was given as a child is because of things like the logical inconsistency of an omniscient being having to start over with the human race after wiping it out in a flood.  If he was omniscient he knew it was going to go down that way in the first place.  Half the church leaders I asked questions of said you can't doubt any part of it.  The whole thing has to be literally true and you just have to have faith.  The other half said some parts are literally true and some parts are allegory and they were happy to chalk up any seeming inconsistencies as allegory, story embellishment, or mans imperfect understanding of god's message when writing it down in the first place.  I could never do it.  I was too literal minded to believe it was all the gospel truth, and unable to selectively believe parts.  Once I started doubting some of it, I started doubting all of it.

You can doubt. You can ask questions. You will get real answers from God . I agree witht the organized religion part. It's man made and a means of control.

If this is a subject you want to know more about go to directionsforourtimes.com and order the book Climbing the Mountain.  It will bring peace.

Just to let you know I asked questions for years.  I worked through it all and am at peace as a senior.  It all comes to just this:  Treat others well and spread real love, the selfless kind.  That's what it's all about when push comes to shove.

[Sum Dum Gai]

I am at peace.  I don't need a higher power, or creator figure, to tell me how to live my life.  Honestly the golden rule and following my own conscience seem to work just fine.  At this point in my life I don't need answers to what comes after.  It's not something I worry about, and I don't think anyone knows anyway.

[mrsdutt]

Jul 12, 2013 15:51:15 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

I am at peace.  I don't need a higher power, or creator figure, to tell me how to live my life.  Honestly the golden rule and following my own conscience seem to work just fine.  At this point in my life I don't need answers to what comes after.  It's not something I worry about, and I don't think anyone knows anyway.

OK then.

[Shooby]

  Well, for me, i feel that the existence of God or not is one of the most important questions of my life that i had to search for and understand and answer.  

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

You can doubt. You can ask questions. You will get real answers from God .

Not so. You won't get a REAL answer from God. There IS no real answer - so you won't hear it from Him, or from any other mere mortal that walks the earth - such as yourself - or any other Deity you might happen to worship. In India, cows are sacred.

You will find your own answer which suits you and and how YOU want to live your life based on your OWN conclusions - not what "God" or anyone else told you is "real". And your conclusions aren't necessarily right for the next person.

Everyone's belief system and level of belief is different (or non-existent in many cases). There is no cut-and-dried RIGHT answer or REAL answer.

What you have if you believe in God, is based on your FAITH, and your faith alone - not fact. I have faith in a lot of things besides religion - doesn't mean that those things will come to pass or be real. Different cultures worship and believe in higher powers that aren't of the Christian God. Are their beliefs less real than yours or their Gods less powerful because YOUR God (to you) is the ONLY God?

I guess you don't believe in evolution either (for which there IS proof).

The dinosaurs and even small microscopic creatures and amoeba were walking or crawling this planet Millions of years before humans evolved.

Several Billions of years ago, there was The Big Bang (and no, I don't mean the TV show ).

Link - Big Bang

That's billions of years BEFORE humans had evolved, and a few million before the idea of God (or any gods) had been created by man.

If you want to put all your faith & belief in the Christian God, that's your right - but don't insist that yours is the ONLY God - or the Bible (written by humans) is the ONLY word and Christianity is the ONLY true religion.

Even the Polynesians (before white settlers ever reached Tahiti, etc) worshiped the Tiki God. Is their god just a carved "souvenir" to you? To some of them, even today, it still is their true God.

And Native Americans - before the settlement of colonizers - had totem poles and held some animals in high reverence (the Eagle, and Bear and Buffalo for example) and they worshiped the elements - Earth/Wind/Sky/Fire. Those are real - is their religion less real than the one you believe in or the white settlers forced them to accept when they invaded their land?

I think that's very closed-minded when talking about religion(s) to think that Christianity and the Christian God is the ONLY one.

Just some food for thought....





.

[Shooby]

Sorry but I believe that the only way to God is through Jesus Christ and that He is The way not A way and other religions are false religions. That is what I believe and that is what I will stand up and say.

[Shooby]

So if that is close minded then so be it.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Jul 12, 2013 21:10:05 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Sorry but I believe that the only way to God is through Jesus Christ and that He is The way not A way and other religions are false religions. That is what I believe and that is what I will stand up and say.

And that's your right to believe for YOURSELF. What I'm saying is, it might NOT be what others believe (or don't believe) and to be insistent that YOUR belief is the only TRUE belief is wrong and closed-minded.

This is a big huge world, with all kinds of cultures and deities. And for you (or anyone) to say that the one you follow is the only TRUE one, or your God is the only TRUE one, is wrong.

There is no one and only TRUE belief system (or non-belief).

Even the church that I was brought up in (which was Christian, btw), might not hold the same beliefs and preachings as the church YOU belong to. There area many different denominations in the Christian faith - and they don't all preach the same message.

I may also have changed to a different faith or deity or even started practicing Buddhism, become an Agnostic, Pagan, Wiccan, or Atheist, for all you know. I still have my own belief system - and it's no more right or wrong than yours is.

As I mentioned before it's FAITH - and you choose which faith you want to believe in and follow. It doesn't necessarily make it the ONLY right one - so there's no point insisting that it is.

[Shooby]

No it isn't wrong for me to say that. You can agree or disagree. But I can and will stand up to say that.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Say what? That you believe in the Christian God? That's already been established by you. Nobody's debating that.

What IS wrong is for you to insist that YOUR God or YOUR belief is the only TRUE one. There were people walking this earth who had their faith in a higher power, force, deity or element - or creating religions other than Christianity long before the Christian faith that you believe in was ever established (by man).

I mentioned earlier that Ancient Egyptians were worshiping the Sun God Ra, and also Isis, Osiris, Ma'at, Horus, etc., etc., etc. THOUSANDS of years before Christianity came into existence. Same for Buddhism which was formed approx 460 BC. Do you consider those religions not real compared to YOURS?

They believed strongly in their God or Gods - to you they may not be real based on YOUR faith, but to others, YOUR god may not be real to them either

It's called having an open mind to all possibilities (or not). I personally have studied science and believe in evolution and creationism. I've studied Religion to a certain degree, and also the Big Bang. I live in an area where one of the world's largest dinosaur discoveries has been made just approx 130 km from where I live. I've been to their Museum of Paleontology and examined fossils up-close-and-personal, and looked and the skeletons of gigantic beasts such as Tyrannosaurus Rex (that wandered this planet millions of years before any humans created gods or religions).



.

[Shooby]

Yup.

[Shooby]

I am not going to say that all roads lead to God because they don't.

[Angel!]

Jul 12, 2013 20:02:25 GMT -5 Shooby said:

  Well, for me, i feel that the existence of God or not is one of the most important questions of my life that i had to search for and understand and answer.  

For me too. I spent years reading and researching religion because i was seeking answers. I jus,t came to the opposite conclusion as you. I stopped believing in any god.



The more i read, the more christianity didnt make sense. Especially when you start learning all the traditions and stories that are similar to those from older religions. i believe it was osiris who was visited at birth by 3 wise men. Dionysus was celebrated by drinking wine to represent his blood,which actually makes sense when you realize he is the god of wine. He was also born of the most powerful god Zeus and a mortal woman.  Pagans would bring trees in the house to celebrate the winter solstice. Virgin births were a huge thing around that timeframe, a couple Caesars claimed to be born to a virgin. And the list just goes on and on.  


It became impossible for me to believe christianity or any religion as the truth when it became apparent that Christianity and all religions are just built on the backs of older religions and what is going on at the time. Add in that there is no agreement on much of anything in Christianity and the absolute hypocrisy found in its followers and I just stopped believing.

[mrsdutt]

Jul 12, 2013 21:45:56 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

Jul 12, 2013 21:10:05 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Sorry but I believe that the only way to God is through Jesus Christ and that He is The way not A way and other religions are false religions. That is what I believe and that is what I will stand up and say.

And that's your right to believe for YOURSELF. What I'm saying is, it might NOT be what others believe (or don't believe) and to be insistent that YOUR belief is the only TRUE belief is wrong and closed-minded.

This is a big huge world, with all kinds of cultures and deities. And for you (or anyone) to say that the one you follow is the only TRUE one, or your God is the only TRUE one, is wrong.

There is no one and only TRUE belief system (or non-belief).

Even the church that I was brought up in (which was Christian, btw), might not hold the same beliefs and preachings as the church YOU belong to. There area many different denominations in the Christian faith - and they don't all preach the same message.

I may also have changed to a different faith or deity or even started practicing Buddhism, become an Agnostic, Pagan, Wiccan, or Atheist, for all you know. I still have my own belief system - and it's no more right or wrong than yours is.

As I mentioned before it's FAITH - and you choose which faith you want to believe in and follow. It doesn't necessarily make it the ONLY right one - so there's no point insisting that it is.

But, aren't most people saying the same thing about their deity? EX: Muslims or followers of Buda?

I see Shoob as saying her beliefs are such.  Not that everyone else has to believe what she believes.  Am I getting myself into more hot water??

[mrsdutt]

DARK:  When I woke up this morning I felt a bit foolish for the way my remarks may have come across to you.  I'm glad you are at peace.  I meant no harm, but was more in a helpful mood.  It was just the way you put your first post.

So against all YM rules, I apologize if you felt I was thinking my way is better than yours.  My premise is it's none of my business what you (or anyone) believe.  And I'm sticking to it!

[Deleted]

I believe there is freedom and liberty to believe however one chooses to, and in whomever or whatever suits them. In time, all truths will be revealed wherever there was doubt or unbelief.  

I choose to believe in the God of the Bible and all that is written within. I know it is foolish to some, yet life saving for others. 

To the original poster. I'm sorry your perception of church gatherings disappointed you. You asked the question. "Should churches be more careful in how they deliver the message of God?" I think the person of Christ Jesus needs to be magnified and lifted up in song and word, over and beyond whatever else that goes on during church gatherings. When Jesus is lifted the highest above all during our church gatherings, there is little else to do but to look upon him, and be drawn to his likeness, and away from our own disliking ways, called sin, in the eyes of God.

Still, there is man's liberty to refuse the message of Jesus Christ even if presented properly.

fromthe

[Sum Dum Gai]

DARK: When I woke up this morning I felt a bit foolish for the way my remarks may have come across to you. I'm glad you are at peace. I meant no harm, but was more in a helpful mood. It was just the way you put your first post.

So against all YM rules, I apologize if you felt I was thinking my way is better than yours. My premise is it's none of my business what you (or anyone) believe. And I'm sticking to it!

No apology necessary.  You were sharing something that helped you find peace in a good natured way, and before that asking an honest question.  I didn't think you were lecturing or judging.