The message

[thyme4change]

If my daughter had a boyfriend who constantly told her she wasn't good enough, she wasn't worthy, she needed to live a certain way - but he loved her anyway, I would think that is abusive.

The message that I always got from church was that I wasn't good enough, I was a sinner, I wasn't worthy and I needed to live a certain way (different from how I was living) - but God loved me anyway.  The message was suppose to be comforting.  However, when I got away from the church, I felt so much healthier and I think it was because I wasn't being told I was a piece of crap every week.

I understand the concept behind the message - at least the modern concept, but it seems like this was a common tool to be used to control people and break them down.  Is this message still a good message?  Is it helpful and constructive?  Should churches be more careful about how they deliver this message?  

[Shooby]

  Not sure what you are asking?  If a church is teaching orthodox Christianity, part of that message is that we are indeed sinners in need of a Savior and redemption and that Hell does exist.  But, that God loved us enough to sacrifice His Son for our redemption so we are very precious to God.

  So, there are ways to deliver this message and different approaches.  And, there are churches who teach a very watered down "feel good" type of message.   But the point of the Gospel is not to make us comfortable but to move us beyond our comfort zone and propel us ahead.

 So, not sure that answers your question but that is the best i can do.

[Angel!]

It probably depends on the church, but I think it can be a very negative message.  I have seen many extremely religious people struggle & feel bad about themselves due to their perceived sins & failures.  They often seem to focus on their mistakes.  Often you can't live up to the expectation you have set for yourself when you set the bar too high & that seems like it would be a very unhappy way to live IMO. 

[Peace Of Mind]

It's the church's way to get you to come back over and over and tithe!  You damn, rotten sinners!!  But God still loves you. 


I'm Catholic and I think the Priests were bored and just wanted us to tell them all the fun stuff we were doing so they could live vicariously through us.  Or that's what I used to think until I found out some were bigger sinners than us. 

ETA:  Crap - now I have the Linda Ronstadt song "You're no good" in my head. 

[Deleted]

I think everyone internalizes the message in a different way.  I find it to be comforting - that we are flawed but still loved, that we can control our behavior and become better people because no one is perfect.  I've had acquaintances that took the message to mean they could cheat on their spouses, steal, and be general a-holes because God still loved them and Jesus would forgive them.

[Deleted]

Wait... are you saying that isn't the case? 

I would like to think it's not because I'm a petty, petty person.

I love flipping through religious channels on tv and watching the random preachers make their crazy speeches.  One time a preacher said that you could do a Jedi mind-trick on Jesus - you just had to wave your hand and he would forget (not forgive, but forget!) your sins.   Maybe some Christian preachers are really into sci-fi?  I remember a sermon where we were told that Jesus left the space time continuum for us.

I'm also very fond of prosperity theology - the idea that Jesus wants you to have wealth in your life and to buy that nice car, and that tithing will bring wealth into your life. It sort of lets preachers off the hook for having private airplanes while simultaneously ignoring most of what Jesus said in the Bible.

[mrsdutt]

Jul 11, 2013 10:05:06 GMT -5 Shooby said:

  Not sure what you are asking?  If a church is teaching orthodox Christianity, part of that message is that we are indeed sinners in need of a Savior and redemption and that Hell does exist.  But, that God loved us enough to sacrifice His Son for our redemption so we are very precious to God.

  So, there are ways to deliver this message and different approaches.  And, there are churches who teach a very watered down "feel good" type of message.   But the point of the Gospel is not to make us comfortable but to move us beyond our comfort zone and propel us ahead.

 So, not sure that answers your question but that is the best i can do.

SHOOB has an excellent post.  With that said, I see how you could feel the type of delivery is controlling.  I think it is as well.  Even though I'm a big time Catholic, I consider my relationship with God extremely personal.  He doesn't damn me, but there would be consequences to any actions that I have not asked forgiveness for and proceed to improve on.  So I guess any damning would come directly from myself.  Through my choices.

[Shooby]

  Well, not all Truth is pleasant, fun or uplifting.  I guess it depends what you want.  If you want to attend a Church that "tickles your ears" then you may.  I don't go to Church for that reason.  I go because i seek Truth and sometimes Truth is very hard to look in the eye.

[swamp]

Part of Catholic mass is "Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed."  

Thats kind of fucked up. 

[Shooby]

No it isn't.  Not if you properly understand Christian orthodoxy. 

[Sum Dum Gai]

but it seems like this was a common tool to be used to control people and break them down.

Bingo!  Organized religion is a tool to keep the masses in line and generate vast wealth and power for the church hierarchy.

[swamp]

Jul 12, 2013 12:59:00 GMT -5 Shooby said:

No it isn't.  Not if you properly understand Christian orthodoxy. 

I understand it.  I still think it's fucked up.

[Shooby]

  Which is the same tactics our own govt use to lecture us about paying our "fair share" and other nonsense. 

[Shooby]

Jul 12, 2013 13:07:29 GMT -5 swamp said:

Jul 12, 2013 12:59:00 GMT -5 Shooby said:

No it isn't.  Not if you properly understand Christian orthodoxy. 

I understand it.  I still think it's fucked up.

Why?  God is absolutely Holy, Holy, Holy.  We are not.  One sin cannot enter His Presence.  He is the Potter and we are the clay to which he can do what He pleases.  However, He pleased to send His Son to be the sacrificial Lamb to atone for us. 

[swamp]

Jul 12, 2013 13:10:16 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Jul 12, 2013 13:07:29 GMT -5 swamp said:

I understand it.  I still think it's fucked up.

Why?  God is absolutely Holy, Holy, Holy.  We are not.  One sin cannot enter His Presence.  He is the Potter and we are the clay to which he can do what He pleases.  However, He pleased to send His Son to be the sacrificial Lamb to atone for us. 

Seems strange to me to make people who aren't worthy of him, especially since they were made in his image.

[kittensaver]

I agree with Swamp. I think "God" (or whatever you want to call that divine, eternal presence) is awesome, but I'm totally done with organized religion.

“When women understand that governments and religions are human inventions; that Bibles, prayer-books, catechisms, and encyclical letters are all emanations from the brains of man, they will no longer be oppressed by the injunctions that come to them with the divine authority of *Thus sayeth the Lord.*”

― Elizabeth Cady Stanton

[Shooby]

Jul 12, 2013 13:11:57 GMT -5 swamp said:

Jul 12, 2013 13:10:16 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Why?  God is absolutely Holy, Holy, Holy.  We are not.  One sin cannot enter His Presence.  He is the Potter and we are the clay to which he can do what He pleases.  However, He pleased to send His Son to be the sacrificial Lamb to atone for us. 

Seems strange to me to make people who aren't worthy of him, especially since they were made in his image.

Why?  God made us in His image with Free Will.  We are free to love as God loves or free to go our own way, turn our back on him and seek selfish things.  He gives us the choice to do so.  Angels apparently were created in a similar fashion however, their fate is sealed and those that have gone astray have no hope of Redemption unlike mankind which does.

[Sum Dum Gai]

If there is an omniscient being who created the universe and everything in it, why does he need a race of hairless monkeys on one insignificant rock on the outer edge of a random galaxy to worship him?  What kind of screwed up psychology is going on there?  An all powerful all knowing being needs his ego stroked by us on a regular basis?  I'm not buying it, but even if you do, why would an all knowing being that wants his ego stroked by his own creation, give us free will knowing in advance that most of us are then going to turn our backs on his teachings?  It makes no damn sense whatsoever.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

What exactly to you classify as "orthodox" Christianity? Do you mean "traditional" - or "old-school"? Usually Orthodoxy is very European.

My DH was Ukrainian Orthodox Catholic - meaning the church that he'd been raised in (and where we were married) practiced ancient rituals and rites to the letter and followed out their Mass in a very structured and "by the book" Catholic method. Their teachings were also very rigid and strict.

It wasn't long afterward, he (we) switched to a Catholic church that was more modernized in their approach to the parishioners. (I hadn't converted, so it made little difference to me, but he found the Orthodox church where he was raised far too set in their ways which had been set out centuries before.

His original church also told him that our marriage would be doomed and our children (if we had any) would be "impure", since I hadn't converted and been baptized into "their" church.

[Shooby]

Jul 12, 2013 13:17:49 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

If there is an omniscient being who created the universe and everything in it, why does he need a race of hairless monkeys on one insignificant rock on the outer edge of a random galaxy to worship him?  What kind of screwed up psychology is going on there?  An all powerful all knowing being needs his ego stroked by us on a regular basis?  I'm not buying it, but even if you do, why would an all knowing being that wants his ego stroked by his own creation, give us free will knowing in advance that most of us are then going to turn our backs on his teachings?  It makes no damn sense whatsoever.

How do i know?  He is the Potter.  The Potter can make whatever He choses to make out of the clay.  Who are we to say "you should have made a different world"?

[swamp]

Jul 12, 2013 13:16:38 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Jul 12, 2013 13:11:57 GMT -5 swamp said:

Seems strange to me to make people who aren't worthy of him, especially since they were made in his image.

Why?  God made us in His image with Free Will.  We are free to love as God loves or free to go our own way, turn our back on him and seek selfish things.  He gives us the choice to do so.  Angels apparently were created in a similar fashion however, their fate is sealed and those that have gone astray have no hope of Redemption unlike mankind which does.

that's great if you believe in God. 

[kittensaver]

Jul 12, 2013 13:18:55 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Jul 12, 2013 13:17:49 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

If there is an omniscient being who created the universe and everything in it, why does he need a race of hairless monkeys on one insignificant rock on the outer edge of a random galaxy to worship him?  What kind of screwed up psychology is going on there?  An all powerful all knowing being needs his ego stroked by us on a regular basis?  I'm not buying it, but even if you do, why would an all knowing being that wants his ego stroked by his own creation, give us free will knowing in advance that most of us are then going to turn our backs on his teachings?  It makes no damn sense whatsoever.

How do i know?  He is the Potter.  The Potter can make whatever He choses to make out of the clay.  Who are we to say "you should have made a different world"?

Oh Lordy, Shooby, Where Do I Start?

You have a brain, so use it! Traditional Orthodoxy is a male construct - period. Understand what that means.

"If you could argue logic with religion, there would be no religion." ~House

[Shooby]

  People are always railing about how God SHOULD have made the world.  Well, what of it?  It is what it is?  We can only go by our own existence, what we see, feel, know and sacred writings and prophets.  It is what it is.  The world has suffering, pain, trauma and other bad things.  It also has rainbows, puppies and butterflies.  There is spiritual battle going on here on Earth.  In the end, all of the bad things will pass away.  You can ascribe to that or not.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

We can only go by our own existence, what we see, feel, know and sacred writings and prophets. It is what it is.

You DO realize that those Sacred Writings were written by human males, and not by God, don't you? He didn't just call a meeting and tell them what to write.

[Sum Dum Gai]

People are always railing about how God SHOULD have made the world.

I have no problem with the world.  I'm totally unable to reconcile the way the world actually is with the image of the creator as portrayed by organized religion.  It's that omniscient bit.  If he knows in advance what our choices are going to be, why are there so many instances of him getting angry at our decisions in the scriptures.  He should have known before Adam and Eve ever met the serpent that they were going to do so and eat the fruit.  He also knew that generations and generations later their offspring would be so fucked up that he'd decide to flood the world and start over.  For a guy who already knows how everything is going to play out, he sure seems to change his mind a lot, get upset over plot twists, and deliver a totally wishy washy message to the beings he supposedly wants to worship him.

I just don't buy it.  Could there be a being who created the universe?  Sure, I guess.  Do I think organized religions have the first damn clue who that being is and what he wants from us?  Nope.  Not a chance.  They've got a pretty good system going for fleecing the gullible though.

[Shooby]

Jul 12, 2013 13:26:40 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

We can only go by our own existence, what we see, feel, know and sacred writings and prophets. It is what it is.

You DO realize that those Sacred Writings were written by human males, and not by God, don't you? He didn't just call a meeting and tell them what to write.

That is your opinion.  I happen to believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God.  If you don't, then you don't.  

[Angel!]

Jul 12, 2013 13:17:49 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

An all powerful all knowing being needs his ego stroked by us on a regular basis? 

This is what I have never understood.  This is like me needing to be worshipped by a colony of ants.  Actually probably even more extreme than that - Me needing to be worshipped by bacteria.

If God exists & the bible is accurate, then all I can say is it seems God is like a child creating us as an ant-farm to fuck with, especially when you read through the old testament.  Maybe he matured in the new testament when he had a son & all.  God basically is setting man up for failure & watching the results.  Why make rules he knows we won't follow, create us with urges & then expects us to ignore them, creates a universe where he doesn't prove his existence & then expect us to have faith?  The whole damn thing doesn't make sense if you are believing him omnipotent, all-loving, & good.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

That is your opinion. I happen to believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. If you don't, then you don't.

The Ancient Egyptians (as well as other cultures such as China and Japan for example) had technology far more advanced than countries formed centuries later.

They also had Gods and worshiped idols - such as cats, and Buddha (or India who have the Krishna or Vishnu), for example. Their religions were formed centuries before Christianity ever came into being. Why are you so sure that your God is more powerful or true than theirs? Because someone's been building that belief into society for so long, and it's the only one you know so "His" word has to be the true one?

[Deleted]

If there is an omniscient being who created the universe and everything in it, why does he need a race of hairless monkeys on one insignificant rock on the outer edge of a random galaxy to worship him?

Because dinosaurs lived four thousand years ago.  And the sun goes around the earth.

I think I'm happy with my relationship with God because I don't try to reconcile the Bible with reality.  I figure it's full of injunctions that made total sense thousands of years ago - not mixing blood was a great idea before transfusions and testing. It's still a great idea outside of hospitals. The Bible is a flawed book because it passed through human hands.  The same way that we've evolved as people our understanding of God has to evolve.

[mrsdutt]

Jul 11, 2013 16:56:50 GMT -5 swamp said:

Part of Catholic mass is "Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed."  

Thats kind of fucked up. 

Then you are having a difficult time understanding what the meaning is.  Plus you are taking the statement of of context.