72 Shot, 12 Killed & 60 Wounded On Independence Day...

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

...weekend in Chicago.  And, no- this didn't happen in the 1700's.

www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/15-Shot-As-Holiday-Weekend-Begins-214275491.html

The last of the 50 states to allow concealed carry- which is only now doing so because of a court ruling which found its gun control laws unConstitutional; and in Obama's home city. 

How's that gun control working for you, Chicago?

[Wisconsin Beth]

Was it killed by guns or wounded by guns?  I saw a headline on this but didn't read. 

[Wisconsin Beth]

Twelve men were killed and at least 60 other people were wounded in shootings throughout Chicago during the holiday weekend, including eight people who were shot in a West Side attack Saturday.

Source: www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/15-Shot-As-Holiday-Weekend-Begins-214275491.html#ixzz2YeZjLq9N

[zibazinski]

Very sad indeed. The criminals know the law abiding citizens can't defend themselves so they're home free. We were there a few weekends ago and there were so many cops all over the place that I didn't feel safer but more worried. Seriously, you couldn't be out of eye site from one, that's how bad things have gotten.

[Tennesseer]

"72 Killed On Independence Day..."

Wishful thinking or just sloppy posting?

Your link states: "72 Shot in Chicago in Wave of Holiday Weekend Violence" and "Twelve men were killed and at least 60 other people were wounded in shootings throughout Chicago during the holiday weekend, including eight people who were shot in a West Side attack Saturday.

Source: www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/15-Shot-As-Holiday-Weekend-Begins-214275491.html#ixzz2Yeq5JQ1H

Twelve dead and 60 injured just doesn't add up to 72 killed.

[Wisconsin Beth]

Tenn, I believe this did put Chicago at over 200 shooting deaths for calendar 2013, which is down from the record year they had last year. 

[Tennesseer]

Jul 10, 2013 10:46:15 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

Tenn, I believe this did put Chicago at over 200 shooting deaths for calendar 2013, which is down from the record year they had last year. 

Beth-I am simply posting a correction to paul's very incorrect and misleading thread title.  Seventy-two people were not shot and killed during Independence Day weekend in Chicago.

[Wisconsin Beth]

Right.  I'm just saying that Chicago had a lot of shootings so far this year.  But I'd posted the first couple of sentences too because I'd seen some stuff on this and didn't remember it the way Paul did. 

[Tennesseer]

Memphis (where I live) has only a quarter of the population of Chicago.  Yet 72 of 91 homicides to date in Memphis have been committed by guns and we are a concealed carry state.

[Opti]

I orignally thought this would be about 72 deaths on Independence Day covering the entire country. I read about two and I was wondering what the others were.

Oh well. Two deaths did occur during parades. One was a Dad who accidently ran over his son who fell off the float and another in New England somewhere was a guy who got struck while driving a vintage tractor I think in the parade. In that case the parade route was changed on the fly because some guy had his gun out and was threatening to shoot people.


I don't think concealed carry in Illinois is going to change much in the bad areas of Chicago.
Guns or no guns aren't the biggest influence on crime. Culture I believe is a bigger one. Think of the Wild West in our past. People didn't live to ripe old age because they had guns.
Some in fact died before their time as they bought into the culture of duels, etc. If street culture stopped celebrating being a gangsta, partying hard, and having lots of expensive stuff things might start improving. Unfortunately some rappers are making serious bank selling stupid so they have no real motivation to change unless they actually care about those on the streets killing each other.

[mmhmm]

Paul, you'll need to change the title of your thread to reflect reality, not create sensation, please.  It's bad enough 12 people were killed.  There's no need to minimize their importance for the sake of the splash.

mmhmm, Administrator

* Since you logged off after I posted this, paul, I'll make the change myself.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jul 10, 2013 9:42:36 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Very sad indeed. The criminals know the law abiding citizens can't defend themselves so they're home free. We were there a few weekends ago and there were so many cops all over the place that I didn't feel safer but more worried. Seriously, you couldn't be out of eye site from one, that's how bad things have gotten.

The cops everywhere in Chicago are mostly there to harass you and find you in violation of some code or other so you have to pay a fine.

[djAdvocate]

Jul 10, 2013 11:38:22 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Jul 10, 2013 9:42:36 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Very sad indeed. The criminals know the law abiding citizens can't defend themselves so they're home free. We were there a few weekends ago and there were so many cops all over the place that I didn't feel safer but more worried. Seriously, you couldn't be out of eye site from one, that's how bad things have gotten.

The cops everywhere in Chicago are mostly there to harass you and find you in violation of some code or other so you have to pay a fine.

that is what our police force has become, as a general rule.  a funding mechanism for themselves.

[EVT1]

Jul 10, 2013 10:58:29 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Memphis (where I live) has only a quarter of the population of Chicago.  Yet 72 of 91 homicides to date in Memphis have been committed by guns and we are a concealed carry state.

Yep- dems point made.  Has nothing to do with gun laws.  Pointless thread really.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jul 10, 2013 11:02:30 GMT -5 Opti said:

I orignally thought this would be about 72 deaths on Independence Day covering the entire country. I read about two and I was wondering what the others were.

Oh well. Two deaths did occur during parades. One was a Dad who accidently ran over his son who fell off the float and another in New England somewhere was a guy who got struck while driving a vintage tractor I think in the parade. In that case the parade route was changed on the fly because some guy had his gun out and was threatening to shoot people.


I don't think concealed carry in Illinois is going to change much in the bad areas of Chicago.
Guns or no guns aren't the biggest influence on crime. Culture I believe is a bigger one. Think of the Wild West in our past. People didn't live to ripe old age because they had guns.
Some in fact died before their time as they bought into the culture of duels, etc. If street culture stopped celebrating being a gangsta, partying hard, and having lots of expensive stuff things might start improving. Unfortunately some rappers are making serious bank selling stupid so they have no real motivation to change unless they actually care about those on the streets killing each other.

You're right about this.  The people in these areas that aren't part of the problem are totally brainwashed into the "guns are the problem" mindset anyway- and ALL concerned are utterly uninformed about the law in the first place, so they won't be aware of it.  But of all the things you said here, you really hit the nail on the head with the "culture" that celebrates "being a gangsta, partying hard, and having lots of expensive stuff things might start improving. Unfortunately some rappers are making serious bank selling stupid so they have no real motivation to change unless they actually care about those on the streets killing each other."

What is a shame is that the 'gangsta' or 'hip hop' or 'rap' or whatever you want to call it- 'culture' permeates mainstream culture.  You can't get away from it, and it's participants, promoters, and others who profit from it have no reason to stop because the market isn't putting a halt to it.  I have been consistently shocked as convicted felons like Cordozar Calvin Broadus host kids shows; and the musical entertainment for things like "The Kid's Choice Awards" on Nickelodeon feature acts like Kesha Rose Sebert, who is not exactly known for kid-friendly music (or music at all if you ask me)...

A good friend of mine and I call this the "hip-hopification of America".  I don't find it the least bit amusing that we are trading our rich and unique traditional American culture for the shifting sands of a pop-culture nation that, when it isn't looking the other way, is actually celebrating every kind of immoral, disgusting, abhorrent, aberrational, weird, or otherwise foolish and base behavior and rewarding it with the moniker "culture".

It's Lord Of The Flies out there, and instead of going into emergency mode about it, even conservatives are embracing a "whatever" attitude about it.  It's a shame.  But 15 year old kids who feel like shooting someone would be fun doesn't just happen in a vacuum.  

www.abajournal.com/news/article/police_teen_murder_suspect_15_thought_it_would_be_fun_to_shoot_a_person/



He's being charged as an adult, btw.  Florida has the death penalty, so presumably it's on the table.  I find it completely appropriate, and since he's white I have no doubt the right thing will be done. 

[Tennesseer]

The kid is white-a budding hood rat!  One of the two dead victims is Latino while the other appears to be southeast Asian!  What are the parents in Florida teaching their children?!?

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jul 10, 2013 12:01:59 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Jul 10, 2013 10:58:29 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Memphis (where I live) has only a quarter of the population of Chicago.  Yet 72 of 91 homicides to date in Memphis have been committed by guns and we are a concealed carry state.

Yep- dems point made.  Has nothing to do with gun laws.  Pointless thread really.

Well, again- it goes to 'culture'.  Memphis is a predominantly black, major Democrat outpost in Tennessee where a good deal of the population is involved in, predisposed to, or desensitized to the 'gangsta culture'.  One thing is very clear- our society as a whole has big problems these days with finding common ground on a whole host of issues, but most threatening of all to the stability of the country is common ground on morality- what's right, and what's wrong.  I think we have a huge problem fueled by liberalism, media bias, and so-called "black leadership" that has led to a situation where an alarming number of black people do not see right and wrong, but black and white. Because Trayvon Martin is black, a good number of black people-- too many for comfort-- view themselves as a separate tribe, and Trayvon Martin as one of their own-- and they are standing in support, not of justice, but of one of their own who was killed-- not in self defense-- but as a combatant in a racial war that they see as going on against them.  Those that hold these views are in a significant minority, but they're large enough in number, and they are supported by the wealthy liberal establishment who for political reasons and other reasons of personal gain, and they are the loudest, and the most heard group.

[Tennesseer]

Jul 10, 2013 12:24:15 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Jul 10, 2013 12:01:59 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Yep- dems point made.  Has nothing to do with gun laws.  Pointless thread really.

Well, again- it goes to 'culture'.  Memphis is a predominantly black, major Democrat outpost in Tennessee where a good deal of the population is involved in, predisposed to, or desensitized to the 'gangsta culture'.  One thing is very clear- our society as a whole has big problems these days with finding common ground on a whole host of issues, but most threatening of all to the stability of the country is common ground on morality- what's right, and what's wrong.  I think we have a huge problem fueled by liberalism, media bias, and so-called "black leadership" that has led to a situation where an alarming number of black people do not see right and wrong, but black and white. Because Trayvon Martin is black, a good number of black people-- too many for comfort-- view themselves as a separate tribe, and Trayvon Martin as one of their own-- and they are standing in support, not of justice, but of one of their own who was killed-- not in self defense-- but as a combatant in a racial war that they see as going on against them.  Those that hold these views are in a significant minority, but they're large enough in number, and they are supported by the wealthy liberal establishment who for political reasons and other reasons of personal gain, and they are the loudest, and the most heard group.

How do you explain the white killer in Florida?  Is killing people with guns part of the white culture too?  Seems to be.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jul 10, 2013 12:15:02 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

The kid is white-a budding hood rat!  One of the two dead victims is Latino while the other appears to be southeast Asian!  What are the parents in Florida teaching their children?!?

The white kid IS a hood rat.  Ain't no 'budding' about it.  I'm glad he's being charged as an adult- I hope he is executed.  And btw, I think his dad has liability for making access to his firearm available to a 15 year old kid.  My guns are secure and son doesn't have the keys to the safe.  It is likely that this was gang initiation.  I'm not sure why this kid was hanging around with a 20 and 22 year old. He's 15.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jul 10, 2013 12:25:53 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Jul 10, 2013 12:24:15 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Well, again- it goes to 'culture'.  Memphis is a predominantly black, major Democrat outpost in Tennessee where a good deal of the population is involved in, predisposed to, or desensitized to the 'gangsta culture'.  One thing is very clear- our society as a whole has big problems these days with finding common ground on a whole host of issues, but most threatening of all to the stability of the country is common ground on morality- what's right, and what's wrong.  I think we have a huge problem fueled by liberalism, media bias, and so-called "black leadership" that has led to a situation where an alarming number of black people do not see right and wrong, but black and white. Because Trayvon Martin is black, a good number of black people-- too many for comfort-- view themselves as a separate tribe, and Trayvon Martin as one of their own-- and they are standing in support, not of justice, but of one of their own who was killed-- not in self defense-- but as a combatant in a racial war that they see as going on against them.  Those that hold these views are in a significant minority, but they're large enough in number, and they are supported by the wealthy liberal establishment who for political reasons and other reasons of personal gain, and they are the loudest, and the most heard group.

How do you explain the white killer in Florida?  Is killing people with guns part of the white culture too?  Seems to be.

Like I said- it's the hip hopification of the country.  The gangsta thing is going mainstream.

[Tennesseer]

Jul 10, 2013 12:28:21 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Jul 10, 2013 12:25:53 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

How do you explain the white killer in Florida?  Is killing people with guns part of the white culture too?  Seems to be.

Like I said- it's the hip hopification of the country.  The gangsta thing is going mainstream.

So it's not just a black thing.  It's a kids and guns thing.  Great.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jul 10, 2013 12:30:44 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Jul 10, 2013 12:28:21 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Like I said- it's the hip hopification of the country.  The gangsta thing is going mainstream.

So it's not just a black thing.  It's a kids and guns thing.  Great.

No, it's a gang-culture thing.  It's a glorification of violence thing.  And it is increasingly mainstream.

But back to this apparent "divide" in our culture- once upon a time, normal people could just ignore the Al Sharpton's and Jesse Jackson's of this world as the fringe kooks they are.  The danger this case represents- a case which never should have been brought- is that it sets a dangerous precedent for the racial-political prosecution and represents a radical shift in the institutional direction of jurisprudence and functional shift in the way law enforcement works.  I already shed light on the criminal cover up of Trayvon Martin's past problems which were deliberately kept from the criminal justice system due to a desire to "keep black male students out of the criminal justice system" which led to a false claim that "crime had dropped"- communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/conscience-realist/2013/jul/1/trayvon-martins-legal-troubles-reportedly-covered-/

In a sworn affidavit, now-reassigned MDSPD Chief Charles Hurley spoke about programs his agency utilized to refrain from ushering black male youth into the criminal justice system.

After Martin was found to be writing graffiti on school property, the situation was handled in a peculiar fashion.
“In this case, T.M., or any other youth in similar cases, and evaluate the totality of circumstance and issue either a warning and give it back to the administration to handle,” Hurley explained.

“We can in fact, of course issue a civil citation which is an arrest diversion program which was actually created by this police department and authored under my time as a sergeant and a commander here at Miami-Dade Schools Police Department. Or we can in fact, make a full blown arrest because technically there was damage and defacing of school property.

“There was probable cause to make this arrest and we know who the person was that committed this damage. In this interest in taking that approach it does nothing to benefit the child and the officer in this case should be commended for exercising discretion and referring it back to the school administration for administrative purposes.” That is not all, though.

“(S)ometime in February, shortly before the child was killed he had another contact with our police department in which he was found to be in possession or close proximity of an empty marijuana bag or bag with small amount of marijuana residue and possibly some other type of contraband, both a misdemeanor. Just like the criminal mischief case I spoke about, a misdemeanor,” Hurley later mentioned.

“The officer once again exercised tremendous constraint and discretion of which has been my chief concern as the chief of this police department and that is changing the philosophy of this police department as it relates to being heavy handed and arresting juveniles.

“Particularly, children of color, minority children. Particularly, minority boys, such as African-American boys. The child once again was handed back to the school administration and subsequently suspended. It is during that time of suspension where this boy was visiting his father in Sanford where he was killed.”
SPD Sergeant Randy Smith — who was promoted to lieutenant before retiring earlier this year — aided Detective Chris Serino in preparing Trayvon Martin’s victimology report. MDSPD Detective Steven Hadley provided Smith with information about Martin.

“(T)he “9 page” report sent by Hadley to Lieutenant Smith at SPD was the report for “criminal mischief”, i.e., the graffiti….However, subsequent to that report, Hadley discovered the “found property” report of the stolen jewelry,” Sundance writes in an email.

“Now, it gets weird, after Hadley sent the report to Smith, who was compiling the data to assist Detective Serino ― the report mysteriously vanished. Vanished because it was not mentioned in the finished victimology report that Serino completed and attested to.

“However, in May of this year during discovery, the nine-page report showed up in an FDLE document to the defense. This was mentioned as just one of the valid reasons for O’Mara and West to file for sanctions against the State for discovery violations.
“Why is this pertinent?

“Because it was only after we published the FOIA outlining Hadley’s sworn affidavit sending it to Smith, and after we posed the question why was it not in the victimology report, that Bernie De La Rionda began mentioning the Conservative Tree House in court proceedings. The first hearing after we published the deception, de la Rionda mentioned our site three times.

“And, it was only after that hearing that de la Rionda inserted the report in a 150-page document release to the defense. But by that time the defense had picked up on our question about the FOIA discovery. Prior to that, the defense never even knew to inquire, because for all intents and purposes it never existed, because Serino never used it.”

Sworn affidavits from Smith and Hadley were released as part of the FOIA request. These provide highly detailed information about the nature and content of the two officers’ communications.

Other affidavits were taken from Sergeant William Tagle and former Commander Deanna Fox Williams, both of the MDSPD. Their statements, along with Haldley’s, bring about a severely troubling revelation.

“Those three frame the cover-up and describe what they found Officer Darryl Dunn was doing at the request of Charles Hurley and Alberto Carvalho,” says Sundance in the same email.

Dunn, who gave a deposition of his own, serves in the MDSPD. Carvalho is the superintendent of Miami-Dade County Public Schools. He was once slated to replace incumbent U.S. Secretary of Education Arne Duncan, but ultimately refused the appointment.

“Dunn puts the final nail in Hurley’s coffin because he specifically backs up what he told Hadley by telling the Internal Affairs people the reason he hid the jewelry, and later the marijuana, was at the specific instruction of Chief Hurley,” Sundance points out. “Dunn wrote up both of those aspects as generic ‘found items’, removing Trayvon from the inherent attached criminality.”

None of the individuals who gave these depositions have commented about their statements since TCTH’s document release.

[djAdvocate]

Jul 10, 2013 10:58:29 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Memphis (where I live) has only a quarter of the population of Chicago.  Yet 72 of 91 homicides to date in Memphis have been committed by guns and we are a concealed carry state.

72 appears to have some magic to it.

[Deleted]

Jul 10, 2013 12:48:39 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jul 10, 2013 10:58:29 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Memphis (where I live) has only a quarter of the population of Chicago.  Yet 72 of 91 homicides to date in Memphis have been committed by guns and we are a concealed carry state.

72 appears to have some magic to it.

72 virgins

[Opti]

Jul 10, 2013 12:30:44 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Jul 10, 2013 12:28:21 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Like I said- it's the hip hopification of the country.  The gangsta thing is going mainstream.

So it's not just a black thing.  It's a kids and guns thing.  Great.

Exactly. Its a rap culture thing IMO and its been adopted by both blacks, whites, and others. Not everyone thankfully, but way too many. I don't think liberalism or Al Sharpton has anything to do with the lyrics that are put out daily by the music industry that supports this.

Its not new though. Eventually something else will replace it just like the music from the 50s and 60s got replaced. I just hope it is soon. I've even seen Justin Beiber dressed like some whitebread wanna be rapper/whatever. Sigh.

[jkapp]

Jul 10, 2013 12:01:59 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Jul 10, 2013 10:58:29 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Memphis (where I live) has only a quarter of the population of Chicago.  Yet 72 of 91 homicides to date in Memphis have been committed by guns and we are a concealed carry state.

Yep- dems point made.  Has nothing to do with gun laws.  Pointless thread really.

Yet whenever someone gets shot, the left calls for more gun regulation...I hope you feel that's just as pointless, and make sure to point that out when they create a thread calling for such regulation.  But I doubt it

[EVT1]

Gun regulations are not going to stop the gang killings unless they went 100% all in and banned them like some other countries have.

I think the better question is why we have the gang problem in the first place- and it sure as shit isn't rap music or whatever the hell PBP is talking about.  I am sure poverty or poor education has nothing to do with it. 

[zibazinski]

I'm sure that it doesn't as well. This is a choice that kids make. Some grow out of it but you actually still see so-called adults wearing their pants down to their knees and pony tails but they'd be the first to bitch "the man" is holding them back as opposed to themselves doing it. Btw, it seems Illinois may finally get a concealed carry law going. Of course with no reciprocity to any other state.

[djAdvocate]

Jul 10, 2013 12:59:37 GMT -5 Opti said:

Jul 10, 2013 12:30:44 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

So it's not just a black thing.  It's a kids and guns thing.  Great.

Exactly. Its a rap culture thing IMO and its been adopted by both blacks, whites, and others. Not everyone thankfully, but way too many. I don't think liberalism or Al Sharpton has anything to do with the lyrics that are put out daily by the music industry that supports this.

Its not new though. Eventually something else will replace it just like the music from the 50s and 60s got replaced. I just hope it is soon. I've even seen Justin Beiber dressed like some whitebread wanna be rapper/whatever. Sigh.

i know that most people don't think of it this way, but i think that most rap is fundamentally libertarian/conservative.  it is not especially liberal.  the themes have to do with tradition and independence.  we might not like those traditions, or how they express them, but i still think it is true.  i have wondered if this is why rap has been co-opted by corporations which are fundamentally libertarian/conservative.

[djAdvocate]

Jul 11, 2013 10:11:20 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

I'm sure that it doesn't as well. This is a choice that kids make.

true.  and if your choice is between flipping burgers for the man, or rolling in dough from dope dealing, i am not sure the latter choice is terribly irrational.  we are the sum of our experiences.  we tend to choose that path that offers the greatest possibility of success.