973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Jul 12, 2013 11:02:02 GMT -5
To me saying it & showing the pictures is kind of proof that there was a physical threat to me. Also & this is just me if someone were on top of me & I were going to shoot them I would shoot to kill. They have an advantage (being on me) & could get the gun away to shoot me. I an no expert here because I've never been in any of these positions (on the ground with someone on top of me, etc). I've seen the beat the head against the ground thing of TV but when I was a lot younger & got into fights, I let them get back up so I could knock them down again. I just never thought about jumping on top of them. For all we know, Zimmerman pointed the gun at Martin first, or swung at him, or threatened him, and Martin reacted and ended up on top. And once I got someone down in a fight, I'm not letting them back up. PBPaul said Florida stand your ground law doesn't allow for some to start a fight. If he started the fight he would be guilty because there is no stand your ground defense after that. That is why Zimmerman had to use the self defense law. You are the lawyer so you would have to tell me if during a fight a person can decide their life is in danger and be justified in using deadly force under self defense laws.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 12, 2013 11:04:10 GMT -5
You can only counteract deadly force with deadly force. If you get slapped, you can't shoot someone. You have to be REASONABLY in fear for your life. Frankly, I don't think getting pinned and punched by a guy about your size is reasonable fear of getting killed or seriously injured.
I don't know crap about "stand your ground."
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Jul 12, 2013 11:04:25 GMT -5
Looking at those pictures oldtex linked, those are what I've seen. I'd wonder about Trayvon's upper body strength if that's all the damage he did with 6 "blows" to the sidewalk. I've seen patients in the ER come out of a fight with the whole back of their head bashed in. That's what happens when your head is driven into concrete a number of times. Believe me, it doesn't just open up a couple of cuts. The skin on the head is stretched pretty tight, so it splits fairly easily on contact and head wounds bleed like crazy! Glad my opinion coincides with that of someone who's seen it.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 12, 2013 11:06:32 GMT -5
If you get slapped, you can't shoot someone.
That's not what P&M says. Over there I can blow your head off if I catch you standing on my lawn.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 12, 2013 11:07:09 GMT -5
If you get slapped, you can't shoot someone.
That's not what P&M says. Over there I can blow your head off if I catch you standing on my lawn. yeah, well that's a different world. they get their legal advice from nancy grace.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 12, 2013 11:09:24 GMT -5
they get their legal advice from nancy grace.
Crap, now you tell me I'm not supposed to listen to her. I've made a mental note to make sure I keep my head down and cross the street if I run into certain posters. I don't want to get shot because they think I look at them funny and "might try something".
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Jul 12, 2013 11:09:38 GMT -5
I don't know crap about any of it but we all know Paul is the self described authority on this. I guess my biggest doubt pro for self defense being justified is that Zimmermon brought a gun to a fist fight. Once he did that he literally gave the person who was beating him up the chance to get at a deadly weapon. If personal responsiblilty meant anything he should be striped naked and dumped on a fire ant mound after being given full blown poison ivy for starting the whole chain of events that led to someone's death, but legal things rarely lead to actual justice.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 12, 2013 11:09:57 GMT -5
they get their legal advice from nancy grace.
Crap, now you tell me I'm not supposed to listen to her. I've made a mental note to make sure I keep my head down and cross the street if I run into certain posters. I don't want to get shot because they think I look at them funny and "might try something". don't wear a hoodie or eat skittles.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 12, 2013 11:11:15 GMT -5
don't wear a hoodie or eat skittles.
What about a poncho and M&Ms?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 12, 2013 11:11:41 GMT -5
don't wear a hoodie or eat skittles.
What about a poncho and M&Ms? then you're an illegal alien.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 12, 2013 11:12:59 GMT -5
then you're an illegal alien.
Well that's okay because at least I'm not a generational welfare rat.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jul 12, 2013 12:04:09 GMT -5
I was surprised to hear one of the lawyer talking heads the other night say that the jury will be instructed that it doesn't matter if Zimmerman followed Martin, or confronted him. All that will matter was if Zimmerman was afraid for his life when he shot Trayvan.
Well shit, I guess the defense is winning then. Really Your Honor, it makes no difference that that my client broke into the zoo, climbed the fence and got inside with the tiger. All that matters is that once he got over the fence he was in fear for his life. He HAD to shoot the tiger. It is ALL the tiger's fault. Your Honor what happened prior to my client being inside the fence is completely irrelevant to the jury.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 12, 2013 12:22:26 GMT -5
they get their legal advice from nancy grace.
Crap, now you tell me I'm not supposed to listen to her. I've made a mental note to make sure I keep my head down and cross the street if I run into certain posters. I don't want to get shot because they think I look at them funny and "might try something". Well, if you read a certain poster if your online presence shows anything but sterling qualities its also OK if you get shot and killed. I think how you are dressed really doesn't matter much. Things that can be inferred about your lack of character after you are dead are far more important.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2013 13:59:18 GMT -5
I was surprised to hear one of the lawyer talking heads the other night say that the jury will be instructed that it doesn't matter if Zimmerman followed Martin, or confronted him. All that will matter was if Zimmerman was afraid for his life when he shot Trayvan.
Well shit, I guess the defense is winning then. Really Your Honor, it makes no difference that that my client broke into the zoo, climbed the fence and got inside with the tiger. All that matters is that once he got over the fence he was in fear for his life. He HAD to shoot the tiger. It is ALL the tiger's fault. Your Honor what happened prior to my client being inside the fence is completely irrelevant to the jury. Actually I think that's kind of a freedom in this country. You can walk around all you want to. Oddly you just might be following someone. I see the point & agree with it.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Jul 12, 2013 14:33:10 GMT -5
I was surprised to hear one of the lawyer talking heads the other night say that the jury will be instructed that it doesn't matter if Zimmerman followed Martin, or confronted him. All that will matter was if Zimmerman was afraid for his life when he shot Trayvan.
Well shit, I guess the defense is winning then. Really Your Honor, it makes no difference that that my client broke into the zoo, climbed the fence and got inside with the tiger. All that matters is that once he got over the fence he was in fear for his life. He HAD to shoot the tiger. It is ALL the tiger's fault. Your Honor what happened prior to my client being inside the fence is completely irrelevant to the jury. Actually I think that's kind of a freedom in this country. You can walk around all you want to. Oddly you just might be following someone. I see the point & agree with it. Which part? What you said is that Martin had the right to walk around but my guess is that you meant Zimmerman had the right to follow him and start a fight. If it was you or your child I doubt you would really feel it was okay to be chased down and killed.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 12, 2013 14:37:54 GMT -5
Zimmerman looks pretty shady to me. Hopefully somebody will follow him out of the courtroom, call the cops, be told to leave him alone, confront him anyway, knock him around a bit, then shoot his ass dead in "self defense". That would be justice.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2013 14:43:06 GMT -5
What you said is that Martin had the right to walk around but my guess is that you meant Zimmerman had the right to follow him and start a fight
I'll have to take your word for what happened beachbum because I wasn't there. I just said that Zimmerman was doing no wrong just walking around. Even following someone may not be breaking the law.
If it was you or your child I doubt you would really feel it was okay to be chased down and killed.
Actually again I don't know if anyone was "chased down". We do know someone was killed by being blown off (with a gun) of someone else's chest. Maybe because I came late to this I haven't really made up my mind who was really at fault for the death. It seems like a lot of people already have Zimmerman both at fault & convicted.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jul 12, 2013 14:43:10 GMT -5
Zimmerman looks pretty shady to me. Hopefully somebody will follow him out of the courtroom, call the cops, be told to leave him alone, confront him anyway, knock him around a bit, then shoot his ass dead in "self defense". That would be justice.Dark - I know this is no laughing matter but I could not help but crack up
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 12, 2013 14:52:38 GMT -5
There's a recording of a 911 call made by Zimmerman where he told the dispatcher he was following a suspicious looking person through the neighborhood and he was told in no uncertain terms by the dispatcher not to confront the suspect. He decided to play action movie hero on his own and confront Martin anyway. That right there would be enough for me to throw out his self defense defense. Martin was followed through the neighborhood by a person unknown to him. Confronted by this stranger, after dark, after being followed for a little bit, and had every right to defend himself. If a complete stranger was following me around at night and confronted me out of the blue I'd probably deck the bastard too, depending on what was said. Zimmerman wasn't a cop, he wasn't in uniform, he had no right to stop anybody or start a confrontation with them.
Once the fists start flying could Zimmerman have been in fear for his life when he reached for his gun? Sure. If he was taking better than he was getting. However, the only reason he was in that position is because he followed and confronted somebody after being told not to do so by police dispatch. Self defense my fucking foot. He purposely started it, didn't think he could finish it, so decided to shoot his way out of the situation he had created. I could lock him up with a clear conscience.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Jul 12, 2013 14:59:38 GMT -5
What you said is that Martin had the right to walk around but my guess is that you meant Zimmerman had the right to follow him and start a fightI'll have to take your word for what happened beachbum because I wasn't there. I just said that Zimmerman was doing no wrong just walking around. Even following someone may not be breaking the law. If it was you or your child I doubt you would really feel it was okay to be chased down and killed.Actually again I don't know if anyone was "chased down". We do know someone was killed by being blown off (with a gun) of someone else's chest. Maybe because I came late to this I haven't really made up my mind who was really at fault for the death. It seems like a lot of people already have Zimmerman both at fault & convicted. Don't take my word for it. He admitted it. Then again he didn't have much choice since most of it was on tape or seen by witnesses. I do feel Zimmerman is at fault. If he had just done was he was supposed to and stay in the car like he was told to no one would be hurt. Legally though, from what I have read about self defense, he had the right to kill Martin. It doesn't seem to matter who chased whom, or who started hitting whom. All that matters is if he had a reasonable fear for his life. Since he knew he brought a gun to a fist fight I'm sure he did really fear that gun being used on him. To me legally guilty and responsible are two different things.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jul 12, 2013 15:05:50 GMT -5
Had Zimmerman not been in possession of a gun I would be willing to bet a large sum of money he would not have continued to follow Martin. He would have waited like a normal person for the police to take care of the matter which is the very reason why I am not in favor of every tom, dick and harry being allowed to tote a gun around.
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hurley1980
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Post by hurley1980 on Jul 12, 2013 15:07:42 GMT -5
There's a recording of a 911 call made by Zimmerman where he told the dispatcher he was following a suspicious looking person through the neighborhood and he was told in no uncertain terms by the dispatcher not to confront the suspect. He decided to play action movie hero on his own and confront Martin anyway. That right there would be enough for me to throw out his self defense defense. Martin was followed through the neighborhood by a person unknown to him. Confronted by this stranger, after dark, after being followed for a little bit, and had every right to defend himself. If a complete stranger was following me around at night and confronted me out of the blue I'd probably deck the bastard too, depending on what was said. Zimmerman wasn't a cop, he wasn't in uniform, he had no right to stop anybody or start a confrontation with them. Once the fists start flying could Zimmerman have been in fear for his life when he reached for his gun? Sure. If he was taking better than he was getting. However, the only reason he was in that position is because he followed and confronted somebody after being told not to do so by police dispatch. Self defense my fucking foot. He purposely started it, didn't think he could finish it, so decided to shoot his way out of the situation he had created. I could lock him up with a clear conscience. [img]http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/yeahthat.gif[/img] I couldn't agree more! The whole self defense thing is a bullshit way to get out of doing time for the crime. I can't even follow this case anymore, because I am really worried he is going to walk!
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 12, 2013 15:12:44 GMT -5
What you said is that Martin had the right to walk around but my guess is that you meant Zimmerman had the right to follow him and start a fightI'll have to take your word for what happened beachbum because I wasn't there. I just said that Zimmerman was doing no wrong just walking around. Even following someone may not be breaking the law. If it was you or your child I doubt you would really feel it was okay to be chased down and killed.Actually again I don't know if anyone was "chased down". We do know someone was killed by being blown off (with a gun) of someone else's chest. Maybe because I came late to this I haven't really made up my mind who was really at fault for the death. It seems like a lot of people already have Zimmerman both at fault & convicted. He started by following the guy in his truck. Per at least one of his testmonies he passed TM and parked his truck watching him while on the phone call or called from that spot. At this point, it appears fairly clear he bolted from the truck to follow him a mere two seconds or less after he said "he's running" to the dispatcher. This wasn't some guy just idly walking through his neighborhood. This is a guy who was driving down to go out the front entrance who changed his plans to follow TM when he saw him coming through the pedestrian entrance near apparently some homes that had been broken into. Some of the testimony or theories of the defense aside, I'm not sure how a kid who doesn't know the complex well is going to evade a guy in a truck who does. GZ was dead on about the direction TM was heading - towards the back entrance. He was just totally wrong on the reason. The unit he was heading to, that he was staying at was one of the ones closest to the back entrance.
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Sam_2.0
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Post by Sam_2.0 on Jul 12, 2013 19:43:01 GMT -5
Doesn't really matter what the jury says at this point. He's been tried in the court of public opinion and many see him as guilty. Even if he gets out he will not be able to live a normal life for a long time, if ever. Casey Anthony is still slinking around hiding under rocks even though she was acquitted.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2013 20:46:05 GMT -5
Another dead drug dealer
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jul 13, 2013 7:13:10 GMT -5
Doesn't really matter what the jury says at this point. He's been tried in the court of public opinion and many see him as guilty. Even if he gets out he will not be able to live a normal life for a long time, if ever. Casey Anthony is still slinking around hiding under rocks even though she was acquitted. Idk, a lot of people think he's pretty a awesome too. I hope you're right and that he suffers some consequences for his actions, but part if me wouldn't be surprised if he gets picked up as a commentator for a controversial "news" program.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 13, 2013 10:34:54 GMT -5
Doesn't really matter what the jury says at this point. He's been tried in the court of public opinion and many see him as guilty. Even if he gets out he will not be able to live a normal life for a long time, if ever. Casey Anthony is still slinking around hiding under rocks even though she was acquitted. From the perspective of jail time or not, what the jury says does matter. Because of the burden of proof though, many times juries do not convict people some of them feel are guilty. I don't think Casey Anthony was acquitted because she was innocent. I think it was because the evidence wasn't strong enough to convict.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2013 11:47:02 GMT -5
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Sam_2.0
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Post by Sam_2.0 on Jul 13, 2013 16:53:31 GMT -5
From what I saw of this one, it may be the same scenario. I know of other cases where there's no doubt someone performed the crime, but they have to wait to get the right evidence in order for a jury to convict. Shon Pernice was one here in KC - everyone knew he killed his wife and got rid of the evidence. Finally got him to confess in a plea-deal that got him 10 years because they weren't sure they could get a full murder conviction if they went to trial without that confession. Baby Lisa is another.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2013 21:07:22 GMT -5
He's been found not guilty. WTF....
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