Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2013 8:14:52 GMT -5
But Anne, don't you know that nothing is ever about race? We live in a perfectly equal society and no one has ever had any bigoted views about anyone... And certainly no one has ever acted on any of those views. But they don't have them anyway, so it's a moot point. of course there is racism still in the usa is it as prevalent as other countries....no way was it a FACTOR in this case.....imo NO unknown male in high risk burglary area....at night wouldnt matter if white, green, brown, or black....GZ still would have probably done the exact same thing....follow and observe
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 16, 2013 8:28:55 GMT -5
About 2 yrs ago we had some robberies where I live and we had a couple of community watch meetings. The police officer told us specifically to not follow or confront anyone we thought to be suspicious. We were to contact the police and keep a safe distance. Never once did they say make sure you pursue the person while carrying a loaded weapon. I guess the definition of a community watch has changed in the last couple of yrs. Bc that's the SMART thing to do, not bc it's ILLEGAL to do.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 16, 2013 8:30:23 GMT -5
I'm curious. For those who believe Zimmerman's story what would you have done as Zimmerman or as Trayvon if things had been a bit different.
Pretend you are George and you have been following a suspicous guy since you noticed him enter from the pedestrian entrance. You park your car, because since he is headed towards the back of the buildings you can no longer easily follow his movements by car and decide to follow on foot. You are very close to the back entrance you are concerned he will leave by.
As you walk on the sidewalk headed towards the back of the buildings, you notice he's just turned the corner to walk between the buildings. What do you do and why? Bonus question: What do you do if he keeps walking and ignores your request to identify himself?
If you are Trayvon, do you keep walking if the guy who has been following you the entire time you've been walking in the complex asks you who you are? Do you call 911 even though nothing has happened yet and explain you are concerned some person has been following you ever since you walked into the complex you are staying at? What do you do? What do you give as your location given your knowledge of the complex is limited?
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 16, 2013 8:38:25 GMT -5
If I did that GZ did, I wouldn't have made it to the trial - my DH would have killed me for my stupidity.
If I did what TM did - it would have ended the same - my DH would have taken care of my stupid ass.
I don't know why TM didn't run away and I don't know why GZ decided to follow someone who also could have had a gun - they are both stupid and now one of them is dead. And now we have "peaceful" protestors who want to do all kinds of "peaceful" things.
It was a stupid situation that ended badly. But making is all about race is even worse
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 16, 2013 8:46:04 GMT -5
DH and I got in a heated debate over this last night. He thinks it's about race. I think it was only a matter of time before Zimmerman did something stupid and shot someone (maybe not killed them but at least injured someone). Stupid people with guns are time bombs.
Unfortunately it happened to be Martin and he ended up dead. I don't agree with the premise that this was a hate crime which is what CNN was calling it last night. I also do not think there is any evidence that warrants taking this to a federal level. It's a giant waste of taxpayer dollars to try and make this a federal hate crime case.
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Jul 16, 2013 9:02:42 GMT -5
If I did that GZ did, I wouldn't have made it to the trial - my DH would have killed me for my stupidity. If I did what TM did - it would have ended the same - my DH would have taken care my stupid ass. Domestic violence is not the answer. :-)
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 16, 2013 9:10:15 GMT -5
Drama, what makes your DH think it's about race?
No one on this thread can answer that for me. Many keep talking about racism and faint and have their heads spin, but no one has said anything concrete.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 16, 2013 9:11:30 GMT -5
If I did that GZ did, I wouldn't have made it to the trial - my DH would have killed me for my stupidity. If I did what TM did - it would have ended the same - my DH would have taken care my stupid ass. Domestic violence is not the answer. :-) He probably would have evoked "your honor, I was protecting myself from such a stupid woman" defense
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jul 16, 2013 9:13:25 GMT -5
DH and I got in a heated debate over this last night. He thinks it's about race. I think it was only a matter of time before Zimmerman did something stupid and shot someone (maybe not killed them but at least injured someone). Stupid people with guns are time bombs. Unfortunately it happened to be Martin and he ended up dead. I don't agree with the premise that this was a hate crime which is what CNN was calling it last night. I also do not think there is any evidence that warrants taking this to a federal level. It's a giant waste of taxpayer dollars to try and make this a federal hate crime case. I completely agree. I don't think this was motivated by hate in the least. To me Zimmerman was just an idiot with a gun. That is it - plain and simple.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Jul 16, 2013 9:13:57 GMT -5
I did not watch the trial and avoided most media coverage so I'm probably the least informed person out there. That said, I have an opinion. IMVHO, this case is more about guns than race. Idiots carrying guns are going to make deadly mistakes because they don't have the proper training that military/police have. If GZ had an ounce of common sense, he wouldn't have confronted TM but just followed him from a distance. After all TM could have had a gun as well, so picking a fight with a complete stranger on the streets at night is not a good idea. And as a previous poster said, I doubt GZ would have followed TM if he didn't feel stronger because of having a gun. A false sense of security can be very dangerous. A bunch of armed citizens without training and common sense results in exactly this type of situation. Second, this incident seems mostly to me about two hot-blooded men with stupid bravado. GZ made really poor decisions, but so did TM. Why didn't TM call the cops? Why didn't he shout to GZ "Hey quit following me I'm on the phone with the cops and they'll be here in 20 seconds" or "I've got 911 on speakerphone and they are listening to us right now." Using your BRAIN can get you out of many tight situations without having to resort to fighting. Women are taught this (because we'd rarely win a physical fight with a stranger in the dark). Things would have ended differently if TM had chosen differently. I'm not saying race didn't play a part, obviously it did. We all have stereotypes imprinted on our brain (even those who vehemently claim they don't). Just because there were some break-ins by black men doesn't mean that every black man in the neighborhood is automatically suspicious. That's racism. Now if the break-ins were done by black men with red hoodies and purple shoes, and then GZ saw a black man with a red hoodie and purple shoes THAT would be suspicious. But to generalize to all black men? Nope...that's racist. There are a lot of lessons to be learned from this case (#1 being don't live in Florida!). I really feel for TM's family - they lost their boy and I can't imagine the grief from that. As if we need more reminders, the world is a f'ed up place and we need to always been on guard. But now we don't just have to watch out to keep from being mugged/attacked by criminals, we need to make sure we don't get killed by stupid people with guns.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 16, 2013 9:16:36 GMT -5
Drama, what makes your DH think it's about race
I don't know, he really couldn't back up his stance.
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shelby
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Post by shelby on Jul 16, 2013 9:18:40 GMT -5
I don't think GZ was racist I do think he was profiling a bit. I find a lot of peoples reaction to this issue extremely racist. I understand the outcry from the black community it seems like TM is accountable for not only his actions but Zimmermans as well, and some people think that is just fine. How quick people decided he was a "thug" and they would have done the same damn thing as Zimmerman.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2013 9:29:14 GMT -5
I don't think GZ was racist I do think he was profiling a bit. I find a lot of peoples reaction to this issue extremely racist. I understand the outcry from the black community it seems like TM is accountable for not only his actions but Zimmermans as well, and some people think that is just fine. How quick people decided he was a "thug" and they would have done the same damn thing as Zimmerman. Of course my views on this, I've already posted. Something that I did wonder about is the hoody & did that play a part. When we arrived at a base once we were told not to wear a certain color or carry a bandana because we would be confused with members of a certain gang. Could the same thing apply to a hoody? Not being from that area, I have no idea if that's true but it might have been.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 16, 2013 9:29:46 GMT -5
May be it's a "teenager" thing not a black thing.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jul 16, 2013 9:33:08 GMT -5
But now we don't just have to watch out to keep from being mugged/attacked by criminals, we need to make sure we don't get killed by stupid people with guns.
And to everything else you said formerly sk
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Jul 16, 2013 9:33:44 GMT -5
Sometimes things are about race, sometimes things are not. I don't know in this case. And maybe it is because I don't want to think that I am racist, I don't think I am. Because if I was neighborhood watch, and I had been given a description of a suspect that had been breaking into houses I'm suppose to watching out for, and that description was of a young black male, I am going to be more suspicious of a young black man I don't know. Hey if the description was of a young white man, yep I'm then going to be keeping an suspicious eye out for any young white man I didn't know.
I think a tragic event happened and I think we want to make sense of it. We want to figure out why, and we want it to be something we can fix so it doesn't happen again. This event took away a feeling of safe from some, or if they didn't already feel safe it made them feel unsafer they they already felt. To get that back, to fix the problem that caused this, we first need a problem. I think in this case, saying this event was cause by racism is away to neatly make it one problem that we can try and fix. It gives us an easy reason on why it happened, and something we can try and stop. Looking at as a series of events, makes it messy and harder to understand because each event on it's own isn't something that is wrong or need to change, but when they lined up just right it caused a bad change reaction with a horrible ending. Racism is something we can strive to correct, a series of events is not.
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Jul 16, 2013 9:35:27 GMT -5
I don't think GZ was racist I do think he was profiling a bit. I find a lot of peoples reaction to this issue extremely racist. I understand the outcry from the black community it seems like TM is accountable for not only his actions but Zimmermans as well, and some people think that is just fine. How quick people decided he was a "thug" and they would have done the same damn thing as Zimmerman. Of course my views on this, I've already posted. Something that I did wonder about is the hoody & did that play a part. When we arrived at a base once we were told not to wear a certain color or carry a bandana because we would be confused with members of a certain gang. Could the same thing apply to a hoody? Not being from that area, I have no idea if that's true but it might have been. A hoodie is a pretty standard wardrobe staple for a lot of people. I'm 32 and I wear them.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2013 9:39:53 GMT -5
I don't think GZ was racist I do think he was profiling a bit. I find a lot of peoples reaction to this issue extremely racist. I understand the outcry from the black community it seems like TM is accountable for not only his actions but Zimmermans as well, and some people think that is just fine. How quick people decided he was a "thug" and they would have done the same damn thing as Zimmerman. I guess I don't have a problem with profiling in this limited instance. If a young, black (or white, Hispanic, Asian, whatever) male is breaking into houses, then I think it's fair to be suspicious of unknown young, black males in the neighborhood. As someone said, if I am hit by a guy in a blue car who flees the scene, I sure hope the police aren't out looking for a chick in a red car.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 16, 2013 9:40:03 GMT -5
Of course my views on this, I've already posted. Something that I did wonder about is the hoody & did that play a part. When we arrived at a base once we were told not to wear a certain color or carry a bandana because we would be confused with members of a certain gang. Could the same thing apply to a hoody? Not being from that area, I have no idea if that's true but it might have been. A hoodie is a pretty standard wardrobe staple for a lot of people. I'm 32 and I wear them. Thug.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 16, 2013 9:41:29 GMT -5
I absolutely think he profiled and jumped to conclusions. However I don't think this was a hate crime. CNN quoted the things that have to be substainiated for this to be elevated to a federal level. The evidence just doesn't hold up, IMO. There isn't enough there to label it a hate crime.
I guess I don't have a problem with profiling in this limited instance
I wouldn't have if Zimmerman had just stuck to calling the cops. The cops probably would have driven by, talked to Martin and situation handelded. Instead not only did Zimmerman profile but he decided that he was capable of handling the situation. He's not trained to do anything. Just because you are carrying a gun it doesn't mean you know how to handle/react in a certain situation.
We all like to think we know how we'd react. I know on P&M it's popular to say you know exactly how you'd handle the situation since you own a gun. Well we don't, even police and military people make mistakes.
Now someone is dead. I do agree with people that his gun made him cocky, I also think he had an overblown sense of importance when it comes to being a member of the "neighborhood watch".
He's an idiot, pure and simple. He may also be a racist I don't know, but I don't think that has anything to do with what happened.
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Jul 16, 2013 9:42:07 GMT -5
A hoodie is a pretty standard wardrobe staple for a lot of people. I'm 32 and I wear them. Thug. Punk. :-)
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 16, 2013 9:45:28 GMT -5
I don't think GZ was racist I do think he was profiling a bit. I find a lot of peoples reaction to this issue extremely racist. I understand the outcry from the black community it seems like TM is accountable for not only his actions but Zimmermans as well, and some people think that is just fine. How quick people decided he was a "thug" and they would have done the same damn thing as Zimmerman. I guess I don't have a problem with profiling in this limited instance. If a young, black (or white, Hispanic, Asian, whatever) male is breaking into houses, then I think it's fair to be suspicious of unknown young, black males in the neighborhood. As someone said, if I am hit by a guy in a blue car who flees the scene, I sure hope the police aren't out looking for a chick in a red car. But don't you have to have a confirmed arrest and conviction to prove it's a person(s) of one particular race breaking into the homes? I don't know the answer but have there been any convictions of people burglarizing the homes at The Resort at Twin Lakes? Without historical data, you really can't profile by race.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 16, 2013 9:47:14 GMT -5
Thug. Punk. :-) Hoodies are ubiquitous.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 16, 2013 9:48:53 GMT -5
Children, behave now or ill take your skittles away!
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jul 16, 2013 9:53:45 GMT -5
Instead not only did Zimmerman profile but he decided that he was capable of handling the situation. He's not trained to do anything. Just because you are carrying a gun it doesn't mean you know how to handle/react in a certain situation.
x100. To me he is a complete idiot. He is actually lucky is ass isn't dead. He pursued someone who also could have been carrying a weapon.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2013 10:01:11 GMT -5
For a group of bright individuals, I continue to be surprised by some of the obtuse and asinine posts on this thread. But I'm done with discussing this on here. Some people on here need Reading Comprehension 101 and a reality check. We accept you even with your flaws.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2013 10:01:14 GMT -5
Where most of us live, I'm guessing that's true. In the example that I gave though, in the area that we lived in certain colors were tied in with certain gangs. I was wondering if hoody's could have been the same thing? I don't know, I was just wondering. I figured that if a color can be picked to identify a gang, why couldn't a hoody?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 16, 2013 10:05:26 GMT -5
Where most of us live, I'm guessing that's true. In the example that I gave though, in the area that we lived in certain colors were tied in with certain gangs. I was wondering if hoody's could have been the same thing? I don't know, I was just wondering. I figured that if a color can be picked to identify a gang, why couldn't a hoody? I'm not sure the color of the hoodie would have come into play in the GZ/TM case oldtex. It was nighttime and many colors are not readily discernible in the dark. Darkness alters all color even if there is artificial lighting around the area.
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Jul 16, 2013 10:06:06 GMT -5
3 of the 8 cases had eye witness who saw the suspects and said they were young black males, one lady was at home with her child when her house was broken into. A 4th case that was 3 weeks before the TM shooting I believe, person saw one of the suspects outside of a house that was later broken into, that suspect was later questioned and a stolen lap top was found on him, they guy was a young black male. From my understanding there were still at least one suspect who had not been caught, they were not sure how many people where involved in the break ins.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 16, 2013 10:08:15 GMT -5
Where most of us live, I'm guessing that's true. In the example that I gave though, in the area that we lived in certain colors were tied in with certain gangs. I was wondering if hoody's could have been the same thing? I don't know, I was just wondering. I figured that if a color can be picked to identify a gang, why couldn't a hoody? Hard to say without knowing the particular area. I'm in SW Florida - across the state from Trayvon/Zimmerman territory, but within a couple of hours' drive. I have a 13 year old and am active in teaching youth sports, so see a fair number of young adults around this area. Hoodies aren't common. Not unheard of, but not common. It's just not cold enough around here for most of the year for people to wear them. Heck, people have made fun of me since I only own a single pair of jeans, but it's just not often cold enough to need jeans. Kind of like how I've worn a red bandanna here in the land of the senior citizen, but I probably wouldn't wear one in Compton, KWIM? BTW, I'm not weighing in on the Zimmerman verdict, just commenting that hoodies may - or may not - be common in their area and we don't really have a good way of knowing that unless we live there.
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