Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2013 13:49:52 GMT -5
Actually I think that he played concerned citizen at night as do most neighborhood watch people. They don't get any payment except maybe making the areas that they patrol a little safer from crime. No, he stopped being a concerned citizen when he decided to disregard what the police specifically asked him to do. If being a concerned citizen means pursuing an individual who has done nothing other than "appear suspicious" (which actually is totally subjective anyway) with a deadly weapon then I guess I'd rather NOT have concerned citizens roaming my neighborhood or anywhere else for that matter. The dispatcher was not a sworn police officer. They have no authority. Yes yes, you are going to come back that Zimmerman didn't have authority either. I saved you the trouble.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jul 15, 2013 14:05:48 GMT -5
I believe in Zimmerman's re-telling of what happened after he hung up the phone Martin confronted him so he didn't disregard what the dispatcher told him per what he told the cops. Whatever... the transcript of the 911 call tells him to stop following the guy and he continues to do so. That being put aside if some fool was following me around I would probably punch them out as well. If was TM I would probably think Zimmerman was suspicious. He follows him around in his car, then actually gets out of the car and continues to follow him on foot while carrying a loaded weapon. You can have your opinion and I will have mine. It is over now anyway. Honestly, I don't want anything bad to happen to Zimmerman but if he spends the next few years looking over his shoulder it won't hurt my feelings. www.documentcloud.org/documents/326700-full-transcript-zimmerman.html
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2013 14:21:13 GMT -5
Actually I think that he played concerned citizen at night as do most neighborhood watch people. They don't get any payment except maybe making the areas that they patrol a little safer from crime. No, he stopped being a concerned citizen when he decided to disregard what the police specifically asked him to do. If being a concerned citizen means pursuing an individual who has done nothing other than "appear suspicious" (which actually is totally subjective anyway) with a deadly weapon then I guess I'd rather NOT have concerned citizens roaming my neighborhood or anywhere else for that matter. No, he stopped being a concerned citizen when he decided to disregard what the police specifically asked him to do. The key part of that sentence is "Asked". Also if I were a concerned person about others safety I would also carry a gun. There are a lot of states where that's illegal, I wouldn't live in one just like I wouldn't live in a state where it's illegal to protect yourself, but that's just me.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 15, 2013 14:36:57 GMT -5
I hope he's followed by large angry black men every time he steps outside. Dude looks suspicious as hell to me. They should do it for the good of the neighborhood. They know he's packing, so if he so much as reaches for his waist or side, they'll have to assume he's pulling a weapon, putting their life is in danger, and they'll need to shoot him in the heart. Won't that be tragic. I don't believe there is any state where it's illegal to carry a gun. I thought the handgun bans were on the city level only. There are states that make it much harder to get a concealed carry permit, but you can still carry unconcealed.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jul 15, 2013 14:40:54 GMT -5
No, he stopped being a concerned citizen when he decided to disregard what the police specifically asked him to do. If being a concerned citizen means pursuing an individual who has done nothing other than "appear suspicious" (which actually is totally subjective anyway) with a deadly weapon then I guess I'd rather NOT have concerned citizens roaming my neighborhood or anywhere else for that matter. No, he stopped being a concerned citizen when he decided to disregard what the police specifically asked him to do. The key part of that sentence is "Asked". Also if I were a concerned person about others safety I would also carry a gun. There are a lot of states where that's illegal, I wouldn't live in one just like I wouldn't live in a state where it's illegal to protect yourself, but that's just me. Well, this is where our difference of opinion comes in. I am fine with citizens having a gun in their own home and have no problem with them using it to protect themselves or their family. I DO, however, have a problem with non law enforcement walking around with guns. While it might make some people feel safe, it only makes me nervous and I don't want innocent people getting killed. I don't know you personally oldtex but I know you were in the military, probably stay calm under pressure and would venture to guess you have had some training in handling deadly weapons. YOU personally having a gun doesn't make me nervous but there are a great many people with guns that do make me nervous (and they aren't criminals). Guns often make people feel powerful and it causes accidents to happen. To me Zimmerman is a perfect example of this fact. I said it before and I will say it again, I believe if he had not been armed he would have never gotten out of his car and followed Martin on foot. He would waited for the police but because he was armed an innocent kid is dead and I think it is tragic.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 15, 2013 14:46:38 GMT -5
I hope he's followed by large angry black men every time he steps outside. Dude looks suspicious as hell to me. They should do it for the good of the neighborhood. They know he's packing, so if he so much as reaches for his waist or side, they'll have to assume he's pulling a weapon, putting their life is in danger, and they'll need to shoot him in the heart. Won't that be tragic. I hope this was a joke, bc that is the exact reason this whole thing happened
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Bob Ross
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Post by Bob Ross on Jul 15, 2013 14:48:47 GMT -5
Based on the limited amount I know about the case, it seems that there wasn't enough evidence to convict Zimmerman beyond a reasonable doubt of murder or manslaughter.
Therefore, if you are upset with the verdict, you either have to blame the prosecution for not presenting enough evidence to prove his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt (if such evidence was in fact, available), or you have to be angry with the system for making proof beyond a reasonable doubt a requirement for such convictions. Perhaps a good alternative would be proof based on angry public opinion?
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Jul 15, 2013 14:54:03 GMT -5
I haven't even stated my opinion as it had nothing to do with what the jury was told in regards to what happened after Zimmerman hung up the phone. As far as someone following you or being suspicious that doesn't necessarily give you the right to physically attack them. You could continue on your way or call the cops both of which don't involve confronting a person following you that you know nothing about and more importantly when you don't know what they're capable of. As to Martin's reaction what the cops were told and what the evidence showed is that he didn't just punch Zimmerman and flee in fear for his life.
As to my opinion, I think the entire thing was an overreaction on both their parts that escalated and resulted in someone dying unnecessarily. The prosecution then screwed the pooch by going for a charge that was damn near impossible for them to prove.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 15, 2013 14:59:45 GMT -5
Dead serious. We all have different definitions of suspicious. That's the part of this whole case that a lot of us find the most troubling. You guys defending Zimmerman don't seem to understand why this case scares the shit out of us. The state just said it's perfectly fine to stalk and confront somebody if you don't like the way they look. It's also perfectly fine to shoot them if a physical altercation ensues from your stalking and confrontation.
Cheer all you want as long as it's a whitish guy looking sideways at young black men. What's a black guy going to find suspicious though? Middle age white women? All white people? Any non black person? How about a half Japanese American that's previously been arrested for assaulting a police officer, we going to trust his judgment on suspicious too? What if he deeply believes that all of us gaijin are criminals, gangbangers, and dumbasses that are up to no good? You won't have any problem with him stalking your kids if they go outside right? He's doing it for his idea of the greater good after all. If he terrorizes your daughter, well she shouldn't have been walking outside like a hooker. If he terrorizes or kills you, well, you were probably going to pour vodka in your Starbucks when you got home anyway, so you deserved to die. How about a very strict Muslim, he can prowl your neighborhood after dark with a weapon and harass anyone that he decides looks like an infidel too right? Free country and all that, he's not breaking any laws.
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Jul 15, 2013 15:03:48 GMT -5
When exactly did Zimmerman confront Martin?
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jul 15, 2013 15:06:33 GMT -5
Based on the limited amount I know about the case, it seems that there wasn't enough evidence to convict Zimmerman beyond a reasonable doubt of murder or manslaughter. Therefore, if you are upset with the verdict, you either have to blame the prosecution for not presenting enough evidence to prove his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt (if such evidence was in fact, available), or you have to be angry with the system for making proof beyond a reasonable doubt a requirement for such convictions. Perhaps a good alternative would be proof based on angry public opinion? I had already assumed he was going to be found not guilty. I am really less upset about the verdict than I am about how the entire situation went down. For me personally, I just can't understand why people think it is okay that Zimmerman pursued this kid with a gun. If TM were their child I doubt they would brush it off so easily. I get that maybe there wasn't enough evidence to convict (it's not like that has never happened before) but I don't get people who think Zimmerman handled the situation properly. I do not think he handled it properly and never will. Just my opinion...
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 15, 2013 15:09:14 GMT -5
Shortly after yelling "he's running" to the 911 dispatcher and chasing Trayvon on foot. He's the only one left alive that knows what the confrontation entailed.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 15, 2013 15:24:24 GMT -5
* If you can't post without using derogatory racial terms, MMC, don't post. - mmhmm, Administrator But the liberals on this thread equates "cracker" to "broad"...I'm so confused....is it a racial slur or not?
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 15, 2013 15:26:17 GMT -5
Same reason "hell" and "damn" aren't bleeped out on TV shows but "fuck" is. One is considered more obscene than the others. I don't think it's about the color or gender of the person being insulted but the connotations and historical context of the word. There are different levels of insults even within categories (like my "broad" vs "c**t" example earlier). You really don't find one of those words more offensive than the other? I think most women would. MMC, IMO that would be a closer comparison. So all racial or ethnic slurs are bad....unless they are against white people...got it
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 15, 2013 15:31:02 GMT -5
Uh, what? Where did I say that?
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 15, 2013 15:33:44 GMT -5
Yeah, it's a racial slur but not a very severe one. I think it's a step above honky which is so ridiculous as a slur that it's like saying "hey white guy". Slightly rude, but more goofy sounding than anything.
You can pretend to be confused all you want, but every adult I've met knows there's a difference between broad and ****. Just like there's a difference between colored person and n_____.
I think the problem is that white folks come up with more insulting words to call minorities. There's no white equivalent to the more disgusting racial slurs we have for other minorities. We have chink, kike, wetback, n_____, and they have, "Oh yeah, well you're a... a.. cracker." It's kind of sad really.
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Jul 15, 2013 15:34:12 GMT -5
So you are saying that, if someone see's someone that they feel is acting suspicious they should not act, they should not follow them, they should not act?
The reason I see his actions as okay, is because if the ending had been differnt. Lets say TM was going to go break into someones house, he didn't notice GZ following him and did break into the house. GZ was then able to give the police the information to directly lead to the break in he would be held up as a hero. Or lets say TM was going to rape/beat someone in that house he heard the screams, since he was following, and was able to go in and stop it. Again the we would see him as a hero.
Hindsight it 20-20. Yea we know now that TM was just going to the house he was visiting, so we can say GZ should have stayed in the car, but with a differnt ending we would be patting him on the back for risking his life to protect his neighborhood.
Our society is inconsistent, we judge someone's actions on the results. But of course when you are sitting in that car, seeing someone suspicious walking around your neighborhood, knowing there has been break ins, and that most likely if you lose sight of the person, when the cops do show up there is nothing they will be able to do since that person would be gone, do you try and keep them in sight or not? Hey if you are right you will have everyone saying you are a hero, if you are wrong then people are going to say you are racist.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 15, 2013 15:37:47 GMT -5
He WASN'T acting suspicious. He was walking down the street holding an iced tea. He was coming from the direction of the closest convenience store, heading towards the house he was staying in. He wasn't hiding in bushes, peeping in windows, wearing a ski mask, or in a sandwich board sign that said I'm up to no good. He was walking down the sidewalk. Can somebody, anybody, please explain to me what part of walking down a sidewalk is suspicious?
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Jul 15, 2013 15:38:33 GMT -5
And I don't think what GZ did was stalking. He followed him, he was nosy and wanted to know what he was doing, but I do not think when he left the car he was trying to install fear or injury to TM. And there was no repetitiveness to it. legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Stalking
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 15, 2013 15:38:34 GMT -5
are because he was targeting a black kid.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2013 15:44:52 GMT -5
Well, this is where our difference of opinion comes in. He would waited for the police but because he was armed an innocent kid is dead and I think it is tragic.
Yes, Amost40 we have a totally different take on the whole situation. I see a 17 year old "young man" that had been expelled from school for having burglary tools & women's jewelry in his possession who was shot while sitting on someone's chest beating them to a bloody pulp. The young man had a chance to get off & stop beating the guy & didn't take it. I totally agree with the verdict & don't disagree with what I know of Zimmerman's actions. But that's just the way I look at it. I think that I'll agree to disagree with everyone that looks at it differently.
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Jul 15, 2013 15:44:52 GMT -5
I'm not saying I would have found him suspicious, and I get that by your definition he wasn't, but as I believe it was you has stated, what one person finds suspicious someone else may not. Reasons have also, I believe have been given on why GZ may have found him suspicious, but we don't know why for sure. I am really curious, because I have not found it anywhere on if there was a profile of a suspect for the break ins that were happening in that area, that could be part of it too. But over all my answer is, I don't know, I wasn't there.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 15, 2013 15:50:59 GMT -5
Which is why I don't want the state to say it's OK for any person to carry a concealed weapon and stalk anybody they want, after dark, in their own fucking neighborhood, because they don't like the clothes they wear, the color of their skin, or whatever.
I personally don't like seeing anybody out after dark on my street. I don't care if it's a family with kids walking a fucking poodle, stay the fuck away from my yard. What this case said is, I can call the cops every time somebody walks by my house and tell the dispatcher they look suspicious. If they ask what they're doing that looks suspicious I can say not a god damn thing, but I don't like the look of them. They'll tell me to keep my crazy ass inside and let them handle it, at which point I can say don't worry I got this, chase the family down the street, and if the dad takes a swing at me I can shoot him. You guys are all perfectly fine with that? That sounds like good solid legal groundwork to you?
It sounds fucking insane to me.
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Jul 15, 2013 15:51:21 GMT -5
Okay... answered my own question. Over the past 14 months, before the shooting there had been 8 break-ins that had been committed by a young black man.
If my car gets hit by a red truck that drove off, I would really hope people wouldn't be keeping an eye out for a blue car.
So yea if I was a neighborhood watch person, I would be paying extra attention to unknown young black men who fit the profile of the burglar.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jul 15, 2013 15:55:00 GMT -5
So you are saying that, if someone see's someone that they feel is acting suspicious they should not act, they should not follow them, they should not act? The reason I see his actions as okay, is because if the ending had been differnt. Lets say TM was going to go break into someones house, he didn't notice GZ following him and did break into the house. GZ was then able to give the police the information to directly lead to the break in he would be held up as a hero. Or lets say TM was going to rape/beat someone in that house he heard the screams, since he was following, and was able to go in and stop it. Again the we would see him as a hero. Hindsight it 20-20. Yea we know now that TM was just going to the house he was visiting, so we can say GZ should have stayed in the car, but with a differnt ending we would be patting him on the back for risking his life to protect his neighborhood. Our society is inconsistent, we judge someone's actions on the results. But of course when you are sitting in that car, seeing someone suspicious walking around your neighborhood, knowing there has been break ins, and that most likely if you lose sight of the person, when the cops do show up there is nothing they will be able to do since that person would be gone, do you try and keep them in sight or not? Hey if you are right you will have everyone saying you are a hero, if you are wrong then people are going to say you are racist. And what exactly makes someone suspicious?? And to answer your question no, I do not think someone should follow a person because they THINK they look suspicious. If Zimmerman wanted to be nosy and spy on people then he would have been better off purchasing a pair of binoculars than a gun. It is nice to know that people think any old tom, dick or harry can determine what is or isn't considered suspicious. Also, as I said before I personally am leaving race out of this... would Zimmerman have followed TM had he been white or some other nationality? We have no way of knowing but the bottom line is that an innocent kid is dead for absolutely no reason. Also, GZ has to live with the fact that he killed a kid. Seriously, nobody wins here...
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Jul 15, 2013 16:00:41 GMT -5
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Jul 15, 2013 16:03:14 GMT -5
What if that had just been a granddad driving his granddaughter. What if being stalked by those teens on the bikes had caused him to have an accident that killed him. Would we then be saying how those teens should be bought up on charges because they should have known better?
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jul 15, 2013 16:06:49 GMT -5
I am sorry that you can't see the difference between this story and an ARMED man following a 17 yr old kid. Whatever... I am out of this conversation. Not worth arguing over any longer.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 15, 2013 16:08:17 GMT -5
Okay... answered my own question. Over the past 14 months, before the shooting there had been 8 break-ins that had been committed by a young black man. If my car gets hit by a red truck that drove off, I would really hope people wouldn't be keeping an eye out for a blue car. So yea if I was a neighborhood watch person, I would be paying extra attention to unknown young black men who fit the profile of the burglar. At the time of the killing, 40 of the 263 townhouse homes were vacant and half of the 263 homes were rentals. Quite a transient community. New people moving in all the time and an unknown number of guests new to that community. In ZImmerman's mind, all were potential burglars.
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shelby
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Post by shelby on Jul 15, 2013 16:10:11 GMT -5
What if that had just been a granddad driving his granddaughter. What if being stalked by those teens on the bikes had caused him to have an accident that killed him. Would we then be saying how those teens should be bought up on charges because they should have known better? Were the teens carrying guns and happened to shoot grandad? I don't see how this is a good comparison. But I didn't read the article just my gut reaction.
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