What is the solution to our greater depression?

[Virgil Showlion]

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VirgilBot TP v0.01 Started Thread Port on 12/24/2010

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[Virgil Showlion]

PoorandUgly
Message #1 - 07/15/10 10:24 PM

Some may know, but others may not. There is a link below that illustrates a video from I believe PBS (reputable outlet) around 1995-1996 when debt was 5 trillion. It was prescient but very early in its warning. Timing is difficult. What can I say. Point is this: now more than ever, our system governed by the private fascist cartel of Government Sux, Federal Reserve etc.. have released an 8 headed beast that they cannot control anymore: Our own currency of debt is in fact deflationary in assets owned and income earned. The fascist big corporations have exacerbated it by exporting our earning power and increasing our debt to foreign powers etc.. The problems and solutions should be primarily targeted here to these robber barrons first. You see, they have no allegiance to god, country or Americans. Only greed and power. They hide behind our laws via the dual party system, paying for its protection to maintain the real control of our society.

Point is this video is excellent in education for the public and presents our cancer that has been killing us for far too long. Set aside some time as it is a 3 hour video. You will understand by end that deficits, budgets, spending, taxes and whether democrats or republicans are the right people for the job is just semantics and a waste of time real Americana. But please see the real truth, the real problem and the real solution below. Just remember, do not be angry at me once you have gone down this rabbit hole. I only promise reality, nothing more. What you do with it is the real challenge. And that takes heart and courage. Some presidents were successful. Others were not and their lives were lost in the "war".



video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-515319560256183936&ei=zudqS-akFp6aqQPVsdXiAw&q=the+money+masters+download&hl=en#

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PoorandUgly
Message #2 - 07/15/10 10:36 PM

You see, this is not a republican or democrat issue. This is an issue of POWER AND MONEY and who should control it. Both democrats and republicans are the same representatives for the same interests. Is that a representative republic??? Bottom line is this: Whoever owns the power to issue and control our the money owns us.

As far as the typical big corporate America goes and its outsourcing of jobs to foreigners or illegal immigrants, why should they be headquartered here taking advantage of our American rights under the Constitution but get tax breaks and other prizes to ship the jobs overseas? That is laughable but also unfortunately doesn't make sense (at least if you are a hardworking red blooded American). Fine, if they want to ship jobs overseas or to be had by illegal immigrants I say fine, you can do that. No one will stop you. It is a "free" country after all. BUT, thanks to that freedom that generations of American soldiers have sacrificed their lives for, you the Corporation should not have the privilege of having your headquarters here on our soil while sitting pretty under the protection of our laws. You have to move your headquarters out of here wherever else whether to Mexico or India or China etc.. . Let's see how they like that. But no politician from either party would dare try to do this for the American people. Because both parties are in the pockets of these fascists at our expense!!!!

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PoorandUgly
Message #3 - 07/15/10 10:55 PM

Why in my first post did I call it a beast that they cannot control. Well think for a minute. You hear fascists from Turbo Tax Timothy to Uncle Ben of the Fed to President Obama to President Bush before him to Hank Henry Paulson of his Treasury etc.. say that credit is the lifeblood of our economy.

Okay but here is the rub. People of America are having collapsing income from no jobs, defaulting collateral (think homes, cars, etc...) and bad credit histories from past delinquencies and defaults and bankruptcies and foreclosures. If much of America is already suffocating on debt and do not have the capacity to pay back future debt, how on god's green earth is more credit the answer???!!!!! When you rack your brain around it, it is a no win situation. And that truth is ugly.

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PoorandUgly
Message #4 - 07/15/10 11:04 PM

Based on immediate post above, that is why banks will not lend. They have so many losses buried on their books plus much of America is such a bad credit risk that they cannot lend even if they wanted to. Would you lend to someone who defaulted on their loan or went bankrupt??? And for the frugal who are not in debt, why should they borrow??? They already have money or low expenses. They will continue to be frugal and/or hoard their money, not trusting it to liars, cheaters or embezzler or they may just wait for value of savings of lower prices in the future. And so a potentially virtuous cycle exists.

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neohguy
Message #5 - 07/16/10 11:31 AM

Welcome back Poor. Good to hear from you again. Occasionally I run across messages on other boards and blogs that use your name and have the same posting style.

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jma23
Message #6 - 07/16/10 11:44 AM

And so a potentially virtuous cycle exists.

Agreed, Except I wouldn't call it a potential vicious cycle as more an occurring cycle currently happening.

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PoorandUgly
Message #7 - 07/16/10 01:11 PM

Hey Neo,

Thanks. I am surprised you remember me. Btw, those with that name on other sites, I can guarantee and promise you that they are not the same person as I. I was here around 2008, so now I am back but just for a little. I have been a fly on the wall otherwise.

One thing I know for sure is things are more controlled than ever. For instance, I was recently in China (Beijing, Shanghai, Xian, and Zhou Zou) and I can tell you that the media (when they talk of them) do not reveal the half of it. What I mean is to say there is a property bubble is an understatement. First there abundance of beautiful architecture and buildings leave New York City a joke in the dust. But more so, when you see the city landscape at night, all over all the apartments are dark!!!!!! You don't hear that do you??

Point is knowledge is power. (Not that I am looking for abundance of it, but enough to not be a slave to the fascists who control us.) So this thread is of that same objective. Your name is fitting in that work of art that has the central character trying to break free from the controlled slavery of his reality too. But he went down the rabbit hole to find the real dark truth.

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PoorandUgly
Message #8 - 07/16/10 01:23 PM

jma23,

I stand corrected. Potential is indicative of some future event as opposed to what we are discussing is already in the present. Perspicacious observation. Oh and for all you grammar freaks out there (just kidding), I correct myself in post above when texting "there abundance" when it should be "their abundance". But I type fast so if I do this so more, you can just chalk that up to recklessness on my part. Please bail me out from that like the reckless fascists were. Was my recklessness as severe???

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AEKara
Message #9 - 07/16/10 01:42 PM

You see, this is not a republican or democrat issue. This is an issue of POWER AND MONEY and who should control it. Both democrats and republicans are the same representatives for the same interests. Is that a representative republic??? Bottom line is this: Whoever owns the power to issue and control our the money owns us.

That is a great video. I have recommend it to many of my friends and my conclusion has been the majority think is way to conspiratorial. Its precisely the reason why I believe it to be mostly true. The truth has been twisted for the public so much where we get robbed in front of our faces but we can't see it and worse most of us are in denial.

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neohguy
Message #10 - 07/16/10 01:44 PM

I remember you from back then Poor. You and Duffminster had some interesting conversation. I'm not a traveler but what you say about China is interesting. I know a service engineer that works for a boiler manufacturer that my company reps. He travels frequently to China to help with equipment start ups. He tells me about luxury office/apartment high rises that are deserted. Manufacturers buying 3x - 4x as many boilers than the plant can ever support. State supported enterprises that bought 4 boilers but 2 are missing when the start up crew arrives.

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Falling Sky - Not
Message #11 - 07/16/10 01:47 PM



So I take it from the title of your post you are one of the few that admits we are in the midst of a global depression?



As to what can be done - Short of a revolution - very little in my opinion.

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www.usdebtclock.org
Message #12 - 07/16/10 01:51 PM



THIS IS THE (ONLY) SOLUTION:



UNTIL A "TRUE ECONOMIC RECOVERY" NOT A "TAX STIMULUS BASED RECOVERY" TAKES PLACE

THIS WILL BE AN ONGOING TREND.



INCREASING TAXES: KILLS THE ECONOMY.



PRINTING MORE CURRENCY: CREATES INFLATION (AN INCREASE IN THE COST OF GOODS AND SERVICES

IN OUR ECONOMY DUE TO THE DEVALUATION OF THE US DOLLAR) KILLS THE ECONOMY.



*****



THE "KEY" TO OUR ECONOMIC RECOVERY ALSO LIES IN OUR "PRIVATE SECTOR" AND NOT OUR "GOVERNMENT SECTOR"

BECAUSE EVERYTHING IN OUR "GOVERNMENT SECTOR" IS FUNDED WITH TAXPAYER "PRIVATE SECTOR" MONEY WHICH

"TAKES AWAY" FROM OUR "TRUE ECONOMIC RECOVERY.



*****

[973beachbum]

You started a thread on MT about Toilet Paper?

[Virgil Showlion]

PoorandUgly
Message #13 - 07/16/10 02:00 PM

AEKara,

It is an awesome video, isn't it. I hate conspiracies. Like the next guy, at first I think of crazy people associated with that type of talk. That video speaks of truth however. It is our history and history of western world going back to the 1600's. I knew all along how war and strife can be caused by money but didn't understand the sinister convoluted, ways it occurs throughout our history. That video explains the common thread through it all.

Neo,

I can't believe you remember that!! I think way back when before it was fashionable, I had a debate with Duffminister on the argument of Deflation vs. Inflation. The sad thing is I think we are both right. To give him "credit" where it due, he said before the bailout of 2008 that the Feds and government will do all they can short of throwing out the kitchen sink to stop the markets and economy from deflating into oblivion. And so the disgraceful TARP, and other bailout packages were passed etc.. But now, here we are again and the only problem with that is we are now out of bullets!!!!!!!!!!!! Everyone is bankrupt, no tax revenues, no income, maxed out debt etc.... And the fascists say more debt 'credit" and lower interest rates are the answer!!!?

Yeah, on the China front, you see, all those empty apartments come with NOTHING (no kitchen sinks, toilets, etc...) in them. So even if you take a farmer off this rural land and migrate him to these urban dwellings, he still needs money and resources to make this vacuous apartment livable.

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Life was good
Message #14 - 07/16/10 02:04 PM



Only chance we have is to Vote out incumbents for three straight elections from Dog Catcher to Presidents. This will purge the system and remove the power of the Dem's and Rep's and allow for independents to have a shot again. We need to burn half the dollars, disable the money printing press for 10 years, set interest rates at 5%. Nullify all trade agreements and reauthorized the 10th amendment allowing the states to regulate commerce.



This would be for starters

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dendl
Message #15 - 07/16/10 02:09 PM



Hello Poorguy,

I agree with your assessment, especially because it is not merely opinion, but originates in the facts. There is much sound reasoning behind your conclusions. The solution? Nothing short of revolution. We need a clean sweep; not only economic, political, cultural, but moral. We elect people to represent us that are like us. If we don't like our leaders then we need to look in the mirror and take a rigorous inventory of ourselves. And as you surely believe, our leaders, corporate, education, political, are a sham.

Chad in Colorado Springs

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PoorandUgly
Message #16 - 07/16/10 02:10 PM

Falling Sky,

Yes, in the westernized world, I think we are in a depression. The Asia region, ex Japan is growing but we cannot rely on them to get us out of this. In fact, I think United States and Europe will bring them down like how Europe brought down the growing industrial United States in the early 20th century. On a longer term trajectory, China, Singapore etc.. is where it is at just like where it was for us in the last century.

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PoorandUgly
Message #17 - 07/16/10 02:15 PM

Many are saying (in terms of politics) a solution is to vote out incumbents and vote independent. I concur on doing this next election. However, I wouldn't hold my breath on this as a fix. If you watch the video, you can probably come to a conclusion that the fascist private bankers and big corps will surely get at these people if not already based on our current system. You have to keep in mind something: earlier this year, the Supreme Court made it official in their ruling decision that Corporations are considered "persons" in the eyes of campaigning and lobbying for politicians in office. What does that tell you???

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Life was good
Message #18 - 07/16/10 02:45 PM



We must vote out all incumbents not just this election but for three elections. Even the ones voted in the previous elections must go. That is how we would purge the system and force a renewal of constitutional governing. It would also remove power from the two parties which have hijacked the political system which has passed the laws allowing such gross injustices to occur in our country. Without a change politically, there will be no getting out of this financial mess this time.



Keep in mind. The last two times this country was in serious financial distress 1933 and 1882 the USD was back by Gold and Silver in 33 and Interest rates were in the teen's with tight money supply in 82. Both created a foundation for a economic recovery and expansion. This time, we have nothing!!! Interest rates are at Zero, meaning no reason to save, no reason to loan. Money is almost to carry it around in a wheel barrow to buy stuff, as the supply is large and getting larger.



Banks need to be Broken up, such as ATT was and regionalize so they have more interest in customers and less interest in World domination. This would help competition and spark new innovation in banking and probably start money flowing to business at the local level again. The last few years BofA JPM and the likes have not cared about Mom and Pop stores, there focus has been on BP, Exxon, GE, Boeing, Halliburton, etc. And of course the Housing Market, Derivatives and those things which should be illegal and at least regulated.



Trade agreements were voted in by the corrupt D&R congress and signed in by both D&R presidents to satisfy the corporations. This allow corporations to shed the balance sheets of expensive labor and material costs, avoid expensive environmental law by moving manufacturing to improve bottom line. This in turn increased profits which drove the stock market to new highs which fueled retirement and mutual funds which made most americans feeling rich on paper.



Once the Stock Market topped in the late 90's it was time to create the Housing bubble which again sucked the created the feeling of wealth on paper. Well we all know what happen.



This was all done because we the people went to the voting booth (or not) and voted in the guy or gal with the slick talk and pretty face instead of the one with the constitution in his or her hand.



Just my Friday Rant!

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jma23
Message #19 - 07/16/10 02:51 PM

You have to keep in mind something: earlier this year, the Supreme Court made it official in their ruling decision that Corporations are considered "persons" in the eyes of campaigning and lobbying for politicians in office. What does that tell you???

That even if you vote all the incumbents out, the new kids in town won't be long in becoming what the incumbents were. It doesn't take long to learn where the easy money comes from.

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Life was good
Message #20 - 07/16/10 03:01 PM



Change the law: Basically says: All elections are local elections and campaign donations can only come from local residents. So if it is a US Senator from Nevada only Nevada State Residents and Corporations can Donate, If it is District 1 in Nevada than only District One Residents can donate to that campaign. That keeps the NY and Hollywood money out of it. It would be up to the candidate to policy the contributions and any violations would void the election. That would keep them all honest in who they took money from. I would also make it full disclosure and avoid words like transparency.

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L R
Message #21 - 07/16/10 03:03 PM



As always there is a different point of view. Anytime we read or even see an opinion it is our responsibly to seek out as many different options as possible and evaluate them and decide.

·

Read not to contradict and confute, nor to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. [boards.msn.com/quotes/Sir_Francis_Bacon/] Sir Francis Bacon




[www.freedom-force.org/freedomcontent.cfm?fuseaction=meetstill&refpage=issues] A different point of view

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jma23
Message #22 - 07/16/10 03:04 PM

Life was good, That would be a great law. Makes you wonder how much $$ the special interests would come up with to prevent it from happening.

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PoorandUgly
Message #23 - 07/16/10 04:14 PM

I do not totally concur with you Life. I live in New York. Even if you make the elections "local" in that facet, the mega corps headquartered here will not be affected at all and they will still be able to influence things. What things??? Federal Reserve Bank of New York for starters. And those operations pervade across the country and will affect you too. But you are on the right path constructively. There is no easy solution here.

Others are advocating revolution. I do not advocate violence, strife, turmoil, war etc..... HOWEVER, history is rife with times where there is no other alternative to a brighter future. I guess it goes by that darkest before the dawn logic. But that darkness I put squarely on the shoulders of our fascist elite who have run this country into the ground over the last 30 years like a child inheriting his father's business and running that right into the ground too. Tragic, pathetic and scary. So history goes.

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PoorandUgly
Message #24 - 07/16/10 04:22 PM

LR,

I understand your view but you must understand something. If you watch the video from my first post, it is not so much the fiat currency as it is the interest carried on top of it that makes it our fractional banking system. I am not against gold but remember gold was the first form of fractional banking used in the westernized world. In fact goldsmiths were considered the first bankers. I think a better metal to use as our currency if any would be silver not gold. Silver is more available and used for industrial purposes. If you switch to a gold standard right now, you will go into hyper hyper deflation. So you in fact want something more readily available that everyone can exchange BUT not charge interest on!!!!! Lincoln with his greenbacks as you posited was a success because it was US NON-INTEREST MONEY exchanged by those who earned it, not by those like bankers who do not and simply collect exponential interest on it!! And you wonder why he was assassinated? Yeah, it was all that actor's doing. And remember, I hate conspiracy crap but embrace and seek truth.

[Virgil Showlion]

PoorandUgly
Message #25 - 07/16/10 04:38 PM

Another thing on the revolution front, for some unfortunately it may be their only alternative left. This is very scary. If you were starving, homeless and couldn't provide for your family even if or when McDonald's turns you down for a job, what would you do?? A mother protects her cub to their death. Desperate people do desperate things in desperate times. Many other Americans have committed suicide and more will continue to commit suicide because they are destitute and feel like failures. What are we to do with everyone who is looking for work for which there is little to none?? This Depression is coming from all angles that should be humbly and realistically observed with humanity in mind too. At the end of the day, the fascist elite care for none of these "angles", but only 2 sides to a coin: money and power. That's it folks. In history, this is in fact what wars are made of unfortunately.

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J 453
Message #27 - 07/16/10 05:16 PM

This is all interesting stuff, but really, what are any of you actually DOING to solve the many problems? It would seem you are all as reliant on the corporations, debt, greed, dishonesty, and fascist elite as I am. So its good you at least have many choices, such as; abandon society and go live in a log cabin/mud hut in desolation like an 1800's settler, or accept your reality and do the best you can to be a good person and make the world a better place, or keep hoping and hoping for change by voting out all the politicians (sounds like the Obama platform in 2008?), or vent your frustrations on the internet, or be like 90% of Americans completely oblivious to it all. Who knows what choice is correct, other than to know the oblivious probably sleep a lot better at night than you.

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PoorandUgly
Message #28 - 07/16/10 05:50 PM

J 453,

This forum is all for putting words into action. I do not know what should be said or DONE. But we discuss both words and the consequential deeds (actions) on here so all can consider whether to agree or disagree about them. Think of this as a online town hall forum. Except there are no "representatives" at the podium hearing you, only your peers. But you are certainly right on one thing. I wish I were oblivious because they were because "Ignorance is bliss."

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Driftr
Message #29 - 07/16/10 06:09 PM

I wish I were oblivious because they were because "Ignorance is bliss."

We all wish that some days.

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PoorandUgly
Message #30 - 07/16/10 06:17 PM

And one other things as I used the term "town hall meeting". When you have a town hall meeting with your "representative" nowadays, they collect info as if it is for the CIA. Hence, the collected info is then used as if the public is nothing but sheep or cattle. They don't care about you. It all about sound bytes and monetary myopia. It is ridiculous, pathetic and scary.

Take yesterday for instance. Again, I hate conspiracies but you think it was a coincidence in the timed release of that Government Sux settlement with the BP cap?? Media times things for maximum controlled effect. Even today, we call the Apple blunder with its latest Iphone a "crisis" or "catastrophe".

Now more than ever, we get are getting big whiffs of how propaganda is not only a tool used in dictatorships to control the public. Words can be more dangerous than mere actions at times. Okay sorry for the rant.

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Life was good
Message #31 - 07/16/10 06:49 PM



I laugh at town hall meetings, and such non-sense, it make no sense to ask a question. A question, a question, what the hell is that, a question, how about a sit down meaningful discussion of one of many problems. A question is nothing more than a feel good with a preloaded answer for a photo op! What the hell!



Friday Afternoon Rant.

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Rick Simpleton
Message #32 - 07/16/10 07:32 PM



I haven't watched the video yet (I will soon). But I am familiar with the issues being discussed. To "do" something will incite the "powerful" to generate a response from them that cannot be defeated. To do nothing is equally pointless. Look at all of the most successful resistance movements and they have one thing in common. Peaceful resistance. Sit-ins, work stoppages, strikes, mass demonstrations etc. If we "all" just refuse to accept their rules, they will lose. I emphasized "all" because without general consensus of the population, it will not work. Therefore, the greatest chance of success will require educating the population about the situation to assure their cooperation. Also, since this is a global issue, the global population will need to be educated. If the population comes together, it can be done peacefully. If not, anarchy will reign and God help us.

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PoorandUgly
Message #33 - 07/16/10 07:52 PM

Rick,

Yes, you got to watch that video. It is very educational but eerily sad unfortunately. But you hit the nail on the head when you said the global population (of the masses and genuine governing body) needs to be educated. Especially, future governing officials who need to understand the economics at work here. You see, many currently in power within the US (Congress and Presidency) and from eras before are not only jaded with fascist support but I do believe there are others (however few - probably considered a minority) who just do not understand the mechanics of what is really plaguing us. Education is one part of the answer, probably the easier part. The harder part is somehow getting "victorious" over the others who stand in the way as paid-for dogmatic fascist protectionists in the halls of Washington D.C. and elsewhere who simply represent the massive syndicate or web of fascists. But yes, please watch that video and pass it on to all you know. It is excellent.

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PoorandUgly
Message #34 - 07/16/10 07:55 PM

I want to emphasize again to all that the video and my language is NOT radical, only conveying a dark underbelly truth that many in control like to dismiss as "crazy". Remember, Jesus, Ghandhi, Martin Luthur King, Lincoln, Washington etc.. were considered by many crazy in their day too. I am no leader but the knowledge helps to fulfill the courage from which future leaders can emerge.

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PoorandUgly
Message #35 - 07/16/10 07:56 PM

Do you consider Channel 13 a biased radical outlet??? That is where the documentary is from. Not on the left or a right wing outlet. Channel 13, which while not perfect is as close to objective as you will get in terms of documentaries and shows on tv.

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Stay Put
Message #36 - 07/16/10 08:15 PM

What is the solution to our Greater Depression?

Answer: Everyone needs to start in a crash course yoga regime. In this way you will be limber enough to kiss your a$$ goodbye.

[Virgil Showlion]

txbizownr
Message #37 - 07/16/10 08:20 PM

Do you consider Channel 13 a biased radical outlet???

I would definetly call it heavily left leaning but definetly short of radical...think of the hosts of the sunday shows ect. ... all very liberal folks



tx

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PoorandUgly
Message #38 - 07/16/10 09:37 PM

tx,

I am not a fan of the media nor tv. I thgink it is a wonderful form of entertainment that amuses me so. Having said that, I do think of all the basic network outlets such as 2,4,5,7,9,11 or 13 which would be most apt at getting some semblance of objective info? If you have money and expand the cable services to include CNN, MSNBC, and FOX? I think the same conclusion can be had. Point is none of it is perfectly unbiased or objective but this video from PBS (13) passes with me.

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PoorandUgly
Message #39 - 07/16/10 09:44 PM

As a follow up, one must understand that EVERYONE has bias since no one is completely void of opinion and emotion. For if they were, they wouldn't be human! The trick and problem now more than ever (as it has been in history before throughout the globe) is many individuals put their selfish dogmatic views, opinions and interests ahead and at the expense of the greater good when in fact their jobs (politicians) are supposed to REPRESENT the MASSES' INTERESTS for their GREATER GOOD instead. You get extremes where in a dictatorship you have one individual putting his own interests ahead all in the name of amassing power from all others. Here, US is supposed to have a representative republic but we really have a giant oligarchy with their interests ahead of ours.

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PoorandUgly
Message #40 - 07/16/10 11:42 PM

Back in 2008, I thought strongly then that the bailouts and TARP would in fact make things worse, including the natural outcome of deflation in our prized assets owned and earning capacity achieved. Notice I do not use deflation in general like so many economists and others like. Inflation and deflation may in your oxford dictionary be defined as "overall" price declines or increases. But in the very real world with which we operate, price levels can be for so many a things? In the real world unlike Uncle Ben's textbook academic world, there are always or usually price declines and increases going on.

My point is back in 2008 I vehemently thought the bailouts would make things worse and in fact we are worse off now than then unfortunately. Again to be simplistic, when you have a fire, do you fan the flames trying to put the fire out?? Well that is what our fascist fed has done. Now we have to come together as one, be educated and then brave and courageous and somehow get our genuine elected officials to help rectify the real problem at hand.

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PoorandUgly
Message #41 - 07/17/10 12:03 AM

This gradual stock market decline (crash) in fact is the smoke screen or alibi for the real phenomena of the contraction of the money supply as represented in M#. At this point, it allows the few fascists to do their ultimate transfer of wealth from the masses to themselves. It is a beautiful con game lying the blame elsewhere for the masses' destitution. Do not be fooled and it is not too late but it is near. Heed this. Watch the video from the first post. Understand the puppet strings pulling us.

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Rick Simpleton
Message #43 - 07/17/10 12:39 AM



Poor,



Finished watching the video. Wow! Nice to have a well researched and well presented summary/history. The solutions presented at the end seemed a little simplistic, though. I cannot imagine the international bankers just giving up and walking away from their power without putting up the fight of all time. That is what is scary. Do you think that they could be monitoring this message board to see what the public response will be when the $@!# comes down?



Probably paranoid,



Rich

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J 453
Message #44 - 07/17/10 12:54 AM



There is a great deal of recent speculation the stock market will crash, some projecting down to DOW 1,000. However, consider these variables for the short term (3-6 months) 1 ) The govt is scared to raise rates for fear it will choke off recovery as well as increase home defaults 2) Govt is still concerned with the banks reserves/losses and will probably keep lending at near zero 3) Govt is concerned with double-dip and may start a third round of stimulus 4) Democrats desperately need a good story to start telling in the next few months if any hope of re-election in Nov- think something BIG that will put us all at ease. 5) Don't be surprised to see Bush tax cuts extended another year, or Obama new tax-cut plan mirroring the old Bush plan. In the near-term everything possible will be done to boost this economy.



With that in mind, the investment banks (MS, GS, C, BAC, JPM) will continue buying/trading this market as a solid source of revenue with billions of free/discounted (.025% borrowing rate) money courtesy of the Fed (taxpayer) and foreign govt (10-30 year T-Bill auction). So don't sell short the lengths the govt will go to prop up the markets. I do think, someday, the house of cards will fall. But we're at least a few years from that. Say late 2012 or early 2013 at the soonest when the debt finally implodes upon itself. Time will tell.

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PoorandUgly
Message #45 - 07/17/10 12:57 AM

Finished watching the video. Wow! Nice to have a well researched and well presented summary/history. The solutions presented at the end seemed a little simplistic, though. I cannot imagine the international bankers just giving up and walking away from their power without putting up the fight of all time. That is what is scary. Do you think that they could be monitoring this message board to see what the public response will be when the $@!# comes down?

Very sagacious observation when you noted the simplicity of the solution. That is exactly what the video left out. The HOW we implement it. Of course, they will not relinquish easily. In fact, they use many in the media and elsewhere to tout a gold standard as our fix. But as the video purports, that in fact is a TROJAN HORSE strategy that they want us to employ. Gold bugs and others observe that central banks have been accumulating gold. If we go to a gold standard, we will go into hyper hyper deflation where all the more wealth is in the hands of all the fewer. Reverting back to a gold standard is one step short of a new world order currency. Again, this is what the oligarch fascists want in the end. Do not fall into that propaganda trap!!!!!!!!!!

I really do not care if they are monitoring or not at this juncture. My reasons are moot but I am trying to learn that life is too short to be paranoid, scared or obsess what others think of me. I am just not ready (yet) to lay down my life for the cause. The video omits the hard part in carrying out the solution. In an almost contradictory fashion, the entire video until its end shows how such violence and war has erupted in the neverending war over the control of money issuance between sovereign nations and private bankers, oligarchs, fascists and power hungry big corporations. Just like good vs. evil, both sides always exist but one can put the other back in its cave. It is time the other side back into its cave. But unfortunately not without a fight. We are behind the 8 ball though as education of more allies is way behind.

---

Rick Simpleton
Message #46 - 07/17/10 01:03 AM



You will know when the end is near, when the resource/population bubble collapses. The moneychangers started at the bottom and are working their way up the ladder. They busted the working class with inflation. That was their excuse for eliminating unions and collective bargaining and for dividing us up as Liberals and Conservatives. Now we will never be able to organize as a group, since we are doomed to fighting amongst ourselves.



The housing bubble was the attack on the middle class. Inflate the price (not value) of their homes and get them into debt, before pulling the rug out from under the prices.



Then, came the investment bubble. The middle and upper middle classes put their retirements into investments, which were bogus from the beginning. Then, the true values were exposed. Another theft of wealth.



It seams that the only class left to exploit are the moderately wealthy. When the moneychangers have control of all of the worlds resources, they will no longer be of use and will be crushed. They will use their command of resources to determine who lives and who dies. In their minds, the world will be a better place without all of the riff-raff needlessly consuming. Consumption will be of their choosing and for their benefit.



Gone from paranoid to depressing,



Rich

---

PoorandUgly
Message #47 - 07/17/10 01:06 AM

J 453,

I posit that the markets are in a decline or slow motion crash. You can even argue it goes back to 2000. They inflated us out in 2002 with housing and credit after tech bust then. 2007 started the more recent implosion with simple cascade of maturities in junk and subprime debt that couldn't be expected to handle adjustments in contractual interest rate shocks which cascaded into derivative counterparty debt derived mbs risk again by late 2008. Inflate away again with more kitchen sinks of 2008 bailout etc... Is third time the charm? It really doesn't matter but the issue is when and are we too late. If not, can the solution be implemented as suggested by the video in time before the ultimata transfers of wealth occur. You can argue they are occurring right now. The issue is are we too late and the virtuous thief in the night (deflation via contraction of M3 money supply, debt destruction etc..) too powerful. The stock market may crash this year or may make a severe bottom by late 2011/2012, either way it is a smoke screen while the few fascists are collecting the massive wealth on the peoples' miserable backs. Point is again - stock market decline or crash is a smoke screen. Know where the real blame and criminality lies.

---

J 453
Message #48 - 07/17/10 01:51 AM



P&U,



Agreed, if something significant doesn't happen soon, eventually the market will retest March 2009 lows, maybe a bit lower. I don't buy into the DOW 1,000 theory, unless something absolutely catastrophic happens. In the DOW 1,000 scenario we won't be at all worried about the markets, rather we'll be trying to survive, find clean water and food for our families. I don't subscribe to that scenario as very probable either. We face many headwinds such as mounting public and private debt, entitlements, energy consumption, UG99, the list goes on and on. But we still have free will, determination, and a desire to make the world a better place for our children. So all is not lost. At the end of the day, maybe the best thing anyone can do is just be aware and informed of the possibilities and talk with others about it. That in itself may help keep things in order and help make progress, whatever direction that may be.

[Virgil Showlion]

J 453
Message #49 - 07/17/10 02:26 AM



OK watched the first part of the video.



Just a thought, if the Fed Reserve is truly in control of all lending, debt, money supply, and large banks, the current real estate implosion could be their ultimate downfall. With 8mm homes in default, another 1mm REO, and the ever increasing strategic default, the future losses to the big banks will be staggering. If we the people demand that big banks are not "bailed-out" if losses make them insolvent, then the FEDs supposed power would be seriously compromised. I don't know much about the FIN REG plan, but I believe there is language within the plan to unwind failing banks in an orderly fashion if they become insolvent. Question is, who determines if they are insolvent, especially after the FASB mark to market change last year. Then again, maybe the banks don't have nearly as much exposure as they did 18 months ago because the FED bought 1.25 trillion worth of their toxic mortgage back securities, funded by Treasury Dept T-Bill sales. This debt then was transferred to FNM and FRE and became public. What a great bait and switch. Come to think of it, I do see a lot more Fannie Mae Home Path properties on the MLS in my neighborhood. Actually, I heard 46% of all REO's are now govt owned. Yea, a grand houdini style bait and switch. Maybe the best idea is to buy more C stock, or BAC??



Interesting stuff.....but I'm not convinced I need to print my own script money just yet. I'll let you know later after I watch part 2 & 3..

---

PoorandUgly
Message #50 - 07/17/10 02:15 PM

Just a thought, if the Fed Reserve is truly in control of all lending, debt, money supply, and large banks, the current real estate implosion could be their ultimate downfall.

No, it is the American people's downfall. Remember, you already saw the early part of the video. A former banker emphasized something very important which is this: The wealth will be neither created nor destroyed but merely transferred. That is why, in simplicity, it is so important to not be in debt. Because as long as you are, your wealth can be stripped away at any time if something unforeseen or bad happens to you. Life is capricious and there are just so many uncertainties.

Moreover, the good debt/bad debt argument is garbage to me. Why? I know so many people who have student loans for primary, secondary, tertiary, career-changing etc...., and yet they are now sinking to the bottom of the ocean with it. For what?? It is return on investment right??? Wrong! That some sort of return on investment (JOBS!!!!) was supposed to be there for them afterwards. We were sold a bag of goods on that. The best part about that debt is cannot even be extinguished in bankruptcy court unlike "bad" credit card debt possibly. So now look at America, people have freaking loans from nursing degrees and hospitals are not hiring because they are in debt too. It is insane and debt is slavery. Yet, these fascists out of sinister intention or just stupendous ignorance (either is unforgivable) think the solution to be more "credit" needed in the system. It is madness.

---

PoorandUgly
Message #51 - 07/17/10 02:19 PM

Debt like has been in the past decades is only good in a upwardly devised ponzi scheme. You take out debt for higher return for the next guy to give you your return and so on. But what if your house, business job or whatever cannot sell or pay at a higher price than the debt taken on?? Uh oh, game over. The westernized world is in this game over mode. The rollover of debt ponzi scheme cannot go on forever and at some point, albeit limitless hyperbolic growth, it ends.

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PoorandUgly
Message #52 - 07/17/10 02:35 PM

And one of the main reasons the ponzi scheme is over in terms of servicing our debt with our once "expected" higher rates of return from businesses, incomes, taxes etc.. is the rise of eastern world (Asia, ex Japan) region. Their standards of living are rising up to meet a point at which ours are falling. Our wages and collateral and lofty debt cannot compete with slave labor wages and prudent savers in the East. Moreover, they are going from nothing in terms of incomes, life styles etc.. to something while we meet them on the way down. That pressure cooker, especially thanks to the wizards in our elected govt over the last 30-40 years via trade agreements, outsourcing, etc.. only puts the squeeze on some more. So if America's incomes, jobs are evaporating, servicing the overhang of debt becomes all the more burdening. In addition to the fact that these foreign powers now hold more of our debt than ever. Like I said in an earlier post, while the US cannot compete with slave labor and wages over there, we 1. should sure as hell not give tax incentive for big business to migrate their labor out of here but 2. if they should do so they should then move their headquarters out of here! Why should we protect them under the constitution of our laws while they rape and pillage us at the same time??? Does someone who was just whipped in the behind say "Thank you sir, may I have some more?"

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rexM
Message #53 - 07/17/10 03:39 PM



Circulation of funds in the market place is the solution. Currently 1.5% of the population holds 54% of liquid assets and they are sitting on it. Our corporations hold at least 2 trillion in cash and they are sitting on it. Tax it and redistribute it or force them to distribute it in dividends to share holders or wages to the workers or corporate up grades what ever. What these companies and people are doing is sticking 75% of all funds under their mattresses. If they want to make more they are going to have to start it circulating. The top end has gotten so heavy it is going to tip us into a huge economic nose dive. Tax the top end and spend it for the bottom end while we are changing the rules on how much the top is allowed to keep and store up. MAJOR TAX REFORM IS NEEDED.

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Life was good
Message #54 - 07/17/10 04:25 PM

Rexm, in order to have tax reform, we must first have monetary reform, in order to have monetary reform we must first have political reform. so please lets purge the politicians out of office by voting out all incumbents for the next three elections from dog catcher to presidents. This is our hope of reforming politics, monetary and taxes, which is the peaceful way of reforming america back to constitutional government by the people for the people.

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5parts2ahorse
Message #55 - 07/17/10 04:54 PM



Hi there, Id like to bring this back in; from a previous '09 posting for your interest. I feel Edward Bellemy had it right,...Equility: The Water Tank Parable



[moneycentral.msn.com/community/message/profile.asp?ForumID=18&UserID=3515588] 5parts2ahorse Message #23
09/21/09 09:14 AM

For consideration: Equility: The Parable of the Water Tank by Edward Bellamy, who also authored "Looking Backwards" en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Parable_of_the_Water-Tank"

I would also like to thank O&G and Duff for all the knowledge and learning of the last year+! thanks, I'm just a small NH farmer!

[moneycentral.msn.com/community/message/profile.asp?ForumID=18&UserID=3515588] 5parts2ahorse Message #23
09/21/09 09:14 AM

For consideration: Equility: The Parable of the Water Tank by Edward Bellamy, who also authored "Looking Backwards" en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Parable_of_the_Water-Tank"

I would also like to thank O&G and Duff for all the knowledge and learning of the last year+! thanks, I'm just a small NH farmer!

---

rexM
Message #56 - 07/17/10 07:51 PM



Lwg--what do you think these newly elected individuals become--saints or new politicians. The pressure of possible election loss from an informed electorate can be stronger than the actual replacement. Lack of experience can sometimes get you in more trouble than experience that is slightly corrupt. I would support replacing most of the just say no group.

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Life was good
Message #57 - 07/17/10 08:23 PM



Disagree, replace them all, it is not the individual anymore it is the R and D parties that need power removed. The only way to establish open and honest elections is to remove the current election laws that allow a R & D monopoly of the political process. We have a Constitution that spells out how the government is to be run. Follow the play book. To suggest you or I are not capable of being the president, senator, congressman, governor or dog catcher is insulting. The only reason we cannot, is we are not backed by the R or D parties with their money. Which by the way, comes from all over the country and even outside the country, even if you are running for congress in district 1 in Nevada. So with that kind of influence, the people of District 1 are not being represent by their elected official. We must through them all out for 3 straight election cycles, even the ones we just elected two years previously, as they will be corrupted also. Purge the system my friends and defang the dragons. To Achieve honest and open elections, pass a law that makes all elections local elections. No money outside of the designated election area could be brought in to influence that election. In the example of district 1 of Nevada, no money except that raised inside district 1 could be donated to those running for office. Full disclosure of all donations would be required to keep it honest. Any violations would void the election and the guilty party would concede the election. Honest elections that would prevent the R & D from buying politicians.



Once we have our Constitutional Government back, then we can Change the Monetary policy to something that makes sense. Then we kill taxation once and for all.

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tbop77
Message #58 - 07/18/10 11:53 AM

Great thread, discussion, and video. Please keep going! How do the few of us who understand what has happened to our country educate the masses who defend and bicker one party over another?

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Life was good
Message #59 - 07/18/10 12:50 PM

Let us not lose sight that this is note only a national issue but also state and local government issue. We the people need to take all our government back from the control of the two party system. Especially now during this time of Depression/Recession. Local Government has the power to take personal property through taxation. In light of the housing bubble, which artificially inflated prices and high unemployment/underemployment we are now setup for local government to take property that banks cannot take. Those which have no mortgage! Thank of Ma and Pa on Social Security and 10 acres and a house paid for. With prices going up and value of the property going up to support the county services. Well it is only a matter of time when they have to sell or be forced or foreclosed on tax liens. This is Happening now all over this country. WE are more worried about the DOW going up or down a 100 points in a day then ma or pa. We need to focus on throwing the politicians out and voting in good honest americans from our local communities. Have courage and Vote no incumbents this November and start sending the message that Americans are P**sed off and we are taking it all back.

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PoorandUgly
Message #60 - 07/19/10 09:33 PM

Great thread, discussion, and video. Please keep going! How do the few of us who understand what has happened to our country educate the masses who defend and bicker one party over another?

Just spread the word by forwarding the video to your family, friends and anyone who will listen. Education is the first step.

[Virgil Showlion]

PoorandUgly
Message #61 - 07/19/10 09:34 PM

Let us not lose sight that this is note only a national issue but also state and local government issue.

It is not only that, but it is a NATIONAL SECURITY ISSUE.

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PoorandUgly
Message #62 - 07/19/10 09:40 PM

Massive problems in structural (un)employment, exploding debt, demographic imbalances, growing massive poverty, lack of affordable food/shelter etc.. are what bring down empires. Like in Rome, an empire's military can be too focused on expending resources (or lack thereof) abroad and simultaneously neglecting the gradual rot from within. Tragic and pathetic.

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PoorandUgly
Message #63 - 07/20/10 04:14 PM

The real problem is ugly but it appears many poor souls (not necessarily just in the literal sense but in other facets of life) deny this reality. Status quo is not acceptable as the imbalances are too top heavy and corrupt.

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PoorandUgly
Message #64 - 07/27/10 05:57 PM

Maybe the Jersey Shore will resuscitate the United States? Well, if they don't come through, there is always Apple to fall back on, right? Have to have faith that consumer spending will pickup again by next June 2011 when next generation Apple devices come out, no? After all, I thought a large part of our consumer based economy now revolves around. And you thought China manufactures crappy products?

Actual upon second thought ........ some Iphone 4 users may disagree with me on that last question.

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PoorandUgly
Message #65 - 07/27/10 06:04 PM

Btw, I love Apple as I am a user (not of latest version. I guess I lucked out there. 3GS suits me just fine for now. Will wait for more features, less bugs, and contract expiration upon next cycle.)

Other than that, lets all fist pump this mother futher on up with Uncle Ben, Turbo Tim, American fascists and their US government. (No I am not on crack but I may be crazy. You decide.)

---

PoorandUgly
Message #66 - 07/27/10 07:14 PM

With M3 crashing and the M1 multiple below 1, our fractional reserve banking system intentionally or not at this point is holding the economy hostage. The 2 headed controlled beast back at end of 2002 has become an 8 headed plus uncontrolled beast today. Solutions you may hear include:

1. return to a gold standard or on the other hand 2. come up with new world order currency or 3. go back to much earlier times and be in commodities and own a farm?

For some of these solutions, again I plead with many do not fall into traps as that is what they want. Watch video linked in first post. Send it it your congresspeople now and after November. Education is first step. I just hope it is not too late.

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PoorandUgly
Message #67 - 07/27/10 07:42 PM

I hear more and more on here, in the media and in the papers about gold as our salvation because of a reason against "printing" of money or more technically quantitative easing. I want to give my humble view to this more resounding talk as of late:

We must understand and all probably concur on the fact that successive rounds of QE (more debt on top of existing debt) is just pure madness and will only lead to spinning your wheels faster in place. And at that point fatigue and then potential collapse is more likely. But still, more debt (QE) doesn't mean squat if the participants do not have the capacity to pay back existing debts nor have anymore equity to entice lenders to engender the velocity of money up again. It is a no win situation when there is little or no income and/or collateral behind the typical majority of defunct borrowers out there. In fact, it is like shoveling us more into the pavement (deflationary).

Now, I am not going to side with or against gold at this juncture. But know this, gold itself was part of the start of the first fractional reserve banking system back in the 1600s back in Europe led by private "central banking". The goldsmiths were in fact considered the first bankers that made fractional reserve banking possible. The goldsmiths were monetary emissaries and thieving bankers of the noble elite and their kings and queens.

So in effect gold was the currency that was intentionally used by kings and queens so it could be melted into impurities and counterfeited and made "artificial" in promise just like paper can today. The process by which kings and queens have done this is called seignorage. That is, the gold coins in circulation back then were robbed of their purities at the behest and theft of their rulers and noble elite. The impurities and multiplier effect of them in circulation allowed commerce to flow without the masses knowing they were robbed of their wealth.

Now, in this time, if we should decide to go to a gold standard now as some suggest, forgetting all the issues above but if for no other reason than supply/demand, we will go into hyper hyper deflation and the central banks including our beloved Fed will be all the more in control and powerful. That is why they have been accruing gold in their vaults. Whatever happens going forward, they probably have checkmate here. So if anything, you want a metal that is more readily available and used for other purposes such as industrial, say silver. It is more abundant and pervasive across the world. But here again, for now, I am not pushing one way or the other on any pm in this area. This is not an elixir to what plagues us.

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Life was good
Message #68 - 07/27/10 08:24 PM



The issue is controlling the money. The United States Government is a government of the people and yet the people have no control over there money. It was given away in Federal Reserve Act. The Fed is not part of our Government, it is not in our constitution. Fractional Reserve Banking does nothing but create debt. Therefore money is debt. In effect we have taken out an interest only mortgage and we don't have enough income to make the monthly interest payment.



Abolish the Federal Reserve Act. Outlaw the practice of Fractional reserve banking, Inventory the peoples gold and silver reserves with complete disclosure. Establish new monetary policy. Pay off all foreign debts using old Federal Reserve Notes, (They Deserve It) Most Importantly, Follow the Constitution for a Change.

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PoorandUgly
Message #69 - 07/27/10 08:29 PM

Abolish the Federal Reserve Act. Outlaw the practice of Fractional reserve banking, Inventory the peoples gold and silver reserves with complete disclosure. Establish new monetary policy. Pay off all foreign debts using old Federal Reserve Notes, (They Deserve It) Most Importantly, Follow the Constitution for a Change.

I concur with this and more. But it is the HOW to get it across to those who are in currently in control. That is the trick and $64 billion dollar question. Conflict of interests abound and those whose interests would be at risk will not relinquish so easily if you get my drift.

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PoorandUgly
Message #70 - 07/27/10 08:47 PM

Here is something that pissed me off over the last decade. Greensnore, and then Uncle Ben and also both now Obama and Bush from before always continued to say how "resilient" the economy was. I kept hearing that term over and over and over again. Greensnore really started with that speech term after the Long Term Capital management debacle back in 1998.

Yeah, he threw money at that too and coined it "resilience". And since then, all the more"resilience" was nothing but more piles and piles of inflating DEBT to get us over bigger and bigger troughs until something bigger like the kitchen sink in BAILOUT mania needed to be thrown at the abyss.

But what about next time when somehow losses send us into the trough again, then what. Will we be amazed at our "resilience" again?

What a joke.

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BiMetalAUPT
Message #71 - 07/27/10 09:28 PM

Old and Smart,..

Well as far as M3 goes.. we need savers not spenders.. We need to put China on a budget of only things we need from China. For starts , Looks to the St.Louis Federal Reserve Bank.. The last two Presidents have talked about interest for savings!!! V1 is about relationship to strength of the economy...V1 could be as high as 11 in a strong economy with the current lending systems as of 2005 but as low a 5 with the depression thinking of hording money. If you can not trust the banks people put money in the Box .. OK some of the money is now gold coins and that is hard to judge.

The interesting problem with 1930 and 2010 is many are putting more money in T-Bonds due to the Federal demand for cash and that is draining M3. We are seeing a lot of cash hording by super large firms like Toyota and Cisco Systems. You can add Ford to that list.

Ben B. stated that the new money printed only created 0.81 dollar of GDP per Dollar added to the Currency Base. We have seen M3 numbers flat for the last four weeks.. better then the dive in May...Call it a change in the change or a positive delta if you wish. A lot of shorts got hurt over the last two weeks and now have covered a lot of shorts on the NYSE.

We need to save more and that is something we are starting to see with savings numbers. Now for some return for the saver.. Inflation will be low with huge contraction in M3. Time will tell but Most folks I know have most everthing the need as basic needs and will only buy to replace when things become too costly to fix.

Just a thought,
Bruce

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BiMetalAUPT
Message #72 - 07/27/10 09:46 PM

MORE ON THE V1 VS MVt ( FLOW5's BIG DOG)



Robert F. Stauffer1(1) Roanoke College, USA

Abstract The recent instability in M1 velocity can be explained by recognizing that M1 consists of two types of transactions balances: those that are used for GDP transactions and those that are used for non-GDP transactions (mainly financial transactions). A model is developed to adjust for instability in the non-GDP transactions balancesvia measurements of portfolio adjustments between M1, non-M1 deposits, and nonbank assets. The model is much better in explaining post-1980 velocity instability, implying that portfolio adjustments induced by the rapid institutional change of this period are decisive factors in determining velocity changes. Also, an explanation of recent changes in V2 and V3 can be derived from the explanation of V1 changes.

THAT IS A FANCY WAY OF SAYING THE MONEY IS GOING INTO THE TOTAL MARKET..STOCK AND BOND MARKET VS THE BANK....NONE BANK ASSETS.. LIKE SCHWAB OR THE NEW DEMAND FOR GOLD COINS MIGHT ALSO BE PART OF THE NONBANK ASSETS..

JUST A THOUGHT ON THE PAPERWORK OF THE M1 AND MVt.. MVt IS BETTER BUT THE NUMBERS ARE NOT THAT EASY TO FIGURE OUT.. FLOW5 DOES IT MUCH BETTER THEN I DO... INCREASE IN STOCK VALUE WILL INCREASE GDP BY 3% ON AVERAGE..ST LOUIS FRB SOME 12 YEARS AGO AS I RECALL..

Bi Metal Au Pt

[Virgil Showlion]

BiMetalAUPT
Message #73 - 07/27/10 10:09 PM

ohn Williams monthly reconstruction of M3 is [www.shadowstats.com/cgi-bin/sgs/data] here. Ours tends to be more volatile than his, partly because it's weekly and partly because of our differences in calculating the repo and Eurodollar component of M3.

Finally and to put M3 into proper perspective with inflation (as measured by CPI without lies), [www.nowandfutures.com/images/m2m3_cpi_money_supply.png] the M3 and M2 strong inflation link is virtually unquestionable. The longer term inflation picture is clear, although M2 shows a pause and likely temporary disinflation as of 2008. Certain bloggers are incorrect and have continually avoided these facts and the linked chart.






M3, longer term chart

[www.nowandfutures.com/images/m3b_long_term_log.png] Same, log chart

M3 consists of M2, institutional money market mutual funds, time deposits in amounts of $100,000 or more, repurchase agreement liabilities of depository institutions (in denominations of $100,000 or more) on U.S. government and federal agency securities, and Eurodollars.

For reference, and as of early 2007, M3 is about $11.5 trillion, M2 about $7.1 trillion, institutional money markets funds about $1.4 trillion, jumbo CDs about $1.7 trillion, repos about $.67 trillion ($670 billion) and estimated Eurodollars are about $.61 trillion ($610 billion).
11/30/2007 - Note that much of the large growth in M3 lately has been in flows into CDs and Money Market Funds, a normal occurrence during financial turmoil. See our [www.nowandfutures.com/financial_crisis.html] financial crisis page for more detail, and a picture of the current level of a U.S. financial crisis.

3/31/2008 - Also see our best effort construction of all Fed activities [www.nowandfutures.com/fed_watch.html#all] here. As of today, it shows that the Fed has been backing off on total money creation activities on a relative basis since about December 2007.

4/4/2008 - As of 3/19/2008, we have added the results of the new Fed TAF, TSLF and PDCF "tools" to our M3 reconstruction, since they are quite similar to temporary repos (repurchase agreements). Temp repos are part of the original definition of M3. Note that they add very roughly about 2-2.5% to the annual growth rate.

5/30/08 - Removed TAF, TSLF, etc. from the "regular" M3 weekly chart and now maintaining it as just a link [nowandfutures.com/images/m3b_with_taf_etc.png] here (M3 with TAF, etc.). Important change - December 7, 2008 An adjustment has been made as of this week to account for changes in the Eurodollar component of M3, taking both derivatives and the flight to the dollar into account. It was back dated to September 2008.

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flow5
Message #74 - 07/27/10 10:18 PM

[globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2010/07/money-supply-divergence-tms1-vs-tms2-vs.html] Money Supply Divergence - TMS1 vs. TMS2 vs. M2 - What does it Mean? [globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2010/07/money-supply-divergence-tms1-vs-tms2-vs.html]

The above chart courtesy of [trueslant.com/michaelpollaro/austrian-money-supply/] Michael Pollaro - Austrian Money Supply. Annotations and arrows on chart by me. [4.bp.blogspot.com/_nSTO-vZpSgc/TEp530MMbnI/AAAAAAAAI8Q/0iCKz3x0HHs/s1600/TMS+Monetary+Aggregates.png]

Notes 1-3 from Pollaro

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Crying Tree
Message #75 - 07/27/10 11:10 PM

Corporate America is not a democracy. It's an auction. Watch your money, trust no one and these guys can be beat. The too good to be true schemes keep on getting the suckers. Free is a four letter word. You get what you pay for most of the time. Many people are doing fantastic, but of course they say nothing. Wait till its over, the new rich will appear. Working hard for yourself is always a good answer to get a head. Lots of nice charts and grafts showing others ambitions? Self drive and skip the hand outs. Old ideas that work but they take effort.

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PoorandUgly
Message #76 - 07/28/10 06:07 PM

To put in simplistic terms, it really is the perfect storm of 1. in US, no higher rates of return than taking on debt (consumer level), 2. even if wanting to borrow funds for higher return, typical borrower is defunct of worthy collateral or credit character (think credit score), 3, lenders are soaked with and hiding past, present and likely potential future losses deep down in their books so they cannot lend more out to ramp up velocity and 4, even if wanting to lend funds for higher return, typical lenders do not want to get burned again for fear of more losses.

This is why keeping rates exceptionally low at this point is madness. And future QE etc.. just pressures more debt onto existing bad debts. Real demand for loans, (if and when it does return) will skyrocket rates. In the meantime, as no one trusts anyone for fear of loss or default, lending/borrowing perversely should contract. Too much excessive debt still needs to be destroyed. Think of it as a necessary evil. The longer we deny this, the more our pain will be dragged out. Like I said earlier in 2008 before the disastrous bailouts, if pain is coming either way, would you like to get it over with fast or slow?

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PoorandUgly
Message #77 - 07/28/10 06:19 PM

I do not know what officially is the reason for not publishing M3 anymore but aside from the interesting charts above, here is another from a good source on AGS (adjusted growth) M3 rate of change.

www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/money-supply-charts

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PoorandUgly
Message #78 - 07/28/10 07:27 PM

Corporate America is not a democracy. It's an auction. Watch your money, trust no one and these guys can be beat.

I do not know, can these guys really be beat? The fascists have both sides hedged in controlling the puppet strings of government. Government Sux, JP Morgan etc.. have contributed a lot to Obama's campaign just like to McCain's. Regardless of who won, they expect to be courted too at the end of the day. The plebians just get the nice words and thank you cards called radio and state of the union addresses.

As far as auctions go, I like the metaphor. I prefer the term casino because at least at those places you have a shot at winning depending upon the game and you still can have a good time if and when you lose your money. And there isn't any shameful false propaganda by the house in denying you that reality of loss. In essence, your "enemy" there steals in front of your face unlike here where it cowardly and deceptively does it behind your back.

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BiMetalAUPT
Message #79 - 07/28/10 08:20 PM

to make #74 Understandable.. Seaking alpha .. where Flow5 like to find charts...
Inquiring minds are once again digging deep into money supply questions. They are intrigued by the fact that money supply measures M2 and TMS1 are plunging towards zero, while TMS2 is still sporting a hefty 10+% year-over-year growth.

TMS stands for "True Money Supply". The suffix (1 or 2) stands for alternate measures, one including savings accounts and the other not. M2 is a widely used Fed aggregate for money.

This looks technical (and it is), but please bear with me. I can and will explain in easy-to-understand terms exactly what is happening and why, along with what it all means.

TMS1 vs. TMS2 vs. M2 Growth
[static.seekingalpha.com/uploads/2010/7/26/saupload_money_supply_measures_2010_06.png]

The above chart [click images to enlarge] courtesy of [trueslant.com/michaelpollaro/austrian-money-supply/] Michael Pollaro - Austrian Money Supply. Annotations and arrows on chart by me.

The idea behind TMS1 and TMS2 is to sort credit transactions from actual money available on demand. For all practical purposes, TMS1 consists of currency in circulation + checking accounts, + sweeps of checking accounts. There is no dispute by anyone that the components of TMS1 represent money on demand.

Think of it this way: Cash in your pocket and cash in your checking account are there whenever you want, on demand. Indeed, the banking industry refers to checking accounts as "DDA" accounts, Demand Deposit Accounts. Others want to include savings accounts, time deposits (CDs), and money market accounts in money supply measures.

TMS1 vs. TMS2. vs M2 Aggregates

[static.seekingalpha.com/uploads/2010/7/26/saupload_tms_monetary_aggregates.png]

Notes 1-3 from Pollaro

(1) To clarify any confusion for those readers familiar with Frank Shostak·s AMS metric, note that (a) as is the case with AMS, TMS1 excludes savings deposits but adds back bank deposit sweep programs, and (b) in contrast to AMS, TMS1 does not include the SFP account.

(2) Time and Savings Deposits due Foreign Accounts and US Government Time and Savings Deposits at Banks have been excluded from TMS2 owing to the fact that Savings Deposits are not separately reported by the Federal Reserve Board and, given the fact that Time Deposits are not money, it was deemed the more conservative formulation.

(3) Sweeps of Transaction Deposits into MMDAs are included in TMS2 by virtue of fact that those deposits are included; i.e., a component part of the Savings Deposits, including MMDAs FRB aggregate.

Comparison Analysis

M2 includes savings accounts + small time deposits (CDs) + money market accounts. TMS2 includes TMS1 + savings accounts but not money market accounts or small time deposits. With the exception of sweeps, the rest of the components have little effect.

The main dispute between the TMS1 and TMS2 camps is in regard to what to do with savings accounts. Proponents of TMS2 claim savings accounts represent money available on demand, while proponents of TMS1 take the tact that savings accounts are "credit transactions" and should not be included in strict monetary aggregates.

I have sided with TMS1 along with Austrian economist Frank Shostak on this point.

We will return to the debate later but first let's explore why M2 and TMS1 are dropping rapidly while TMS2 is not.

Part of the discrepancy can be explained by close analysis of Small Time Deposits and Savings Deposits. Small time deposits are Certificates of Deposit - CDs under $100,000. For comparison purposes, "Large Time Deposits" include "Jumbo CDs", amounts above $100,000

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PoorandUgly
Message #80 - 07/28/10 09:49 PM

As you mentioned in a prior post, what is tied in with all of this is the savings rate. Unfortunately, the savings rate, albeit not negative like in 2007, is still very low by historical records clocking in at about 4% as of July 2010. The AVERAGE or normal level over the long haul should be around 12%.

Yet, in the ignorant media and such, and in this gluttonous debt love affair and never pay back society, when savings went up finally, we poo pooed it. Unfortunately, one can argue we are more vulnerable now than in 2007 for the simple reason that we have taken on more debt with less income coming in to service it all, so relatively speaking, the savings rate may need to in fact overshoot to the upside to compensate for our all the more precarious situation. Thank you again BAILOUT BEN for all that you do for us.

The real answer was to accept failure and debt destruction and default and say to reckless borrowers, gamblers, and fascists : Well, tough sht - no more money (soup) for you. But no. Everyone but the responsible chump has to be a winner regardless of the cost. And you wonder why there is so little confidence, trust or risk taking by us plebians. The pain unfortunately has to be more severe when one is on a bender for ages. The US still has a long way to go to reach the average savings rate of 12% again. Like I said in prior post, this is part of a painful but necessary process that must take place in this new deleveraging cycle.

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flow5
Message #81 - 07/28/10 10:31 PM



National income accounting is one large problem. Figures on final goods and services omit various channels of production, and distribution, for goods at different stages of production, and consumption. Inflation begins with raw material prices and processing costs at all stages of production, and continues through to the endT



MS1, TMS2, & M2 are dubious distinctions. Virtually all payments and receipts clear thru demand deposits. All other deposit classifications are historically, insignificant.



Bank debits include all property transactions, new and existing. If reliance was place upon money flows, this housing bubble would never have had a chance to develop.



The FED's problem is that they try and use interest rates to control the money supply. The liquidity preference curve is a false doctrine. By using the wrong criteria (interest rates, rather than member bank reserves & reserve ratios) in formulating and executing monetary policy, the Federal Reserve became the bubble·s engine









.

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PoorandUgly
Message #82 - 07/29/10 01:44 PM

I concur with the notion that using interest rates to control and target the money supply, especially now, all the more is a futile exercise in our debt or euphemistically termed credit-based punch drunk society.

It seems overtime that there are more and more economists or camps of economists (Austrian economists etc..)who try to reclassify, identify and discover relationships and causes and effects between money supply and the corresponding economy. The conspiracy side in me says this is no coincidence nor surprise because the Federal Reserve itself overtime has made it more cryptic to publish certain measures of the money supply including for instance what the actual M3 figures are and what their rate of change over periods of time are too.

Hence, with these unknowns, we never have 100% clarification on actual stats between cause and effect between money supply and economy. Like I said, the conspiracy side in me thinks this is deliberate. Nonetheless, as of now, I am neutral as to where I come down specifically on the Austrian distinctions and classifications of MS1, TMS1, TMS2 etc.. I need to study that aspect further. I do however concur with Austrian economics overall thesis.

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PoorandUgly
Message #83 - 07/29/10 03:57 PM

To put it bluntly, if the fascists intend to get revenge by hoarding their cash, you should hoard yours too. Stay liquid, get out of debt. Watch your expenses. Live frugally. More waves of debt destruction over the next several years are not going away.

But then again, some of the above advice/solution for all alike should have ALWAYS been followed. But arrogance and excess of the human soul is constant throughout our history regardless of advancement of societies over that history. Meaning that some argue that we are living better now than ever before ........

Oh so just because I live better than the King of England centuries ago means everything is okay? Like I said, we will always advance technologically as a society (at least until we possibly blow the planet up into extinction) but human emotion and error seem to be constant enough over time still. Hence, that logic is ridiculous and does not address problems, only defies and defers them for another day. Hmmm, seems like the same policy of our US government over the last 20-30 years with debt, net loss of jobs to rest of world, oil etc........

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PoorandUgly
Message #84 - 07/29/10 04:14 PM

Hey fascists, what's happening? I thought we were supposed to take this pig, oops I mean stock market up some more before you crash or gradually water torture it? Maybe you are just teasing today? Stop screwing and eradicating the few responsible law abiding participants left.

I love these alpha male traders and wall street crud. They will take and take until there is nothing left but war and blood in the streets a la WW2. Pathetic and tragic if I must say so.

[Virgil Showlion]

PoorandUgly
Message #85 - 07/29/10 05:45 PM

I put the below text in another thread which bears worth repeating here:

To talk to Uncle Ben about saving is like talking to Osama Bin Laden about ending terrorism.

You cannot reason with such bias or dogmatic people.

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Life was good
Message #86 - 07/29/10 06:21 PM



After visiting many message boards and posts the last couple months, trying to get a pulse on what Americans are thinking. I must say, America still does not grasp the magnitude of the problem. Therefore engaging in meaningful discussions on solving the problems are a waste of time. To put America's knowledge of History and Politics on a light bulb scale, I would have to put the vast majority between a 40 and 60 watt bulb. Very few make it to the 100 watt bulb brightness.

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PoorandUgly
Message #87 - 07/29/10 09:21 PM



Life,



The scary thing is that if very few make it to the 100 watt bulb brightness as you say (which I agree with), then in sinister effect, the fascists have turned our "democracy" against us in that the majority of the electorate do not know any better in terms of voting for the best people to represent them.



I mean, come on, many voters vote for the politician primarily based on who looks best in front of the television but they won't admit it. Do you think Abraham Lincoln would have a shot at the Presidency today??? And politicians know that cardinal rule #1 is never let your voters know that you, their currently elected official, think they are stupid. Heaven for bid, whatever intelligence the masses have should be insulted. But the fascists use this lack of intelligence against us like cancer turning good cells into bad and spreading toxicity.

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Jnap
Message #88 - 07/29/10 11:18 PM



The solution is simple; just give Capitalism time to work. We live in a capitalist society and capitalism ain·t pretty. It often takes no prisoners and where it can make many people very prosperous it also can leave a trail of hardship behind. This great recession is a good example of what can happen when capitalism is left to its own, unrestricted, means. Excess occurs at every level. This recession was brought on by the gradual transference of a large amount of manufacturing to other countries at a time when the construction industry was exploding. This masked the problem, temporarily, of having an unbalanced economic structure; one that had become reliant on inflated housing prices, inflated living standards, inflated debt and unsustainable expectations. At the same time the American education system was becoming less and less effective and a large percentage of our students less and less educated. With more of our manufacturing going overseas where were these lesser educated people going to work once the construction boom stopped? The answer is nowhere, exactly were they are now. It is important to remember that even if unemployment is at 9.5 percent, college graduates are only at 4% and the uneducated are way above 15%. Just look at the last 30 years what has happened. Many students that come out of High school are barely able to read or write or comprehend. It has become a standard practice to repeat much of what should have been learned in high school in the first year of college, for those that go there. But worse, much of what should have been learned such as history, basic personal economic and financial competency, government, social studies, and math and sciences is lost and never learned. We have a generation of Americans that when it comes to those subjects can only be described as illiterate.

Somehow, many of our citizens have lost the motivation to be educated just for the sake of being knowledgeable. Being stupid among many of our high school students isn·t even considered detrimental because the link, for many, between education and success has been destroyed. Admiration for those with great academic achievements and knowledge often isn·t even shown by their peers because of the lack of understanding of the importance.

If you want to precisely identify the cause for the great recession it is that, as a whole, the mean level of prosperity, of the American population, has fallen proportionally to the decline in our knowledge and literacy.

Blame the Federal Reserve, fractional banking, politicians, the saving rate, corruption, greed and anything you like but, ultimately, the culprit is the uneducated that allow the previous to exist and prosper in the first place.

The only way out is to raise the overall level of education among Americans and let the capitalistic system work. Maybe we have hit bottom but I remain pessimistic because the message of our president, concerning education, is still, somehow, being missed.

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Life was good
Message #89 - 07/30/10 12:43 AM

The only way out is to raise the overall level of education among Americans and let the capitalistic system work. Maybe we have hit bottom but I remain pessimistic because the message of our president, concerning education, is still, somehow, being missed.

No matter what you do, no matter how hard you try, no matter how much money you spend on books and teachers, you will never make a 60 watt bulb burn at 100 watts.

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common_sense.
Message #90 - 07/30/10 06:01 AM

No matter what you do, no matter how hard you try, no matter how much money you spend on books and teachers, you will never make a 60 watt bulb burn at 100 watts.

you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear.

What is scary hard to believe is that Ross Perot called NAFTA perfectly with the "giant sucking sound". We knew it too, we just didn't want to believe that anything could really happen to us. It did.

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Life was good
Message #92 - 07/30/10 12:04 PM



I voted for Perot because I listened to him and believed him when it came to his trade argument. We need to nullify all trade agreements, withdraw from the WTO. Negotiate trade agreements with individual countries in good faith with appropriate taxes and tariffs that keep the balance scales level.



We do not need a WTO superseding the constitution in authority making rulings for or against the United States.



Side Note: Free Trade had and still enjoys Bipartisan support in both houses of congress and at least the last 8 Presidents have pushed for open or free trade. Vote all incumbents out, and lets start the process of reclaiming our country

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PoorandUgly
Message #93 - 07/30/10 12:53 PM

Ross Perot was laughed at way back then for this charts and analysis etc... Remember the charts? Americans overall could not get passed that because their attention span is and was the length of a flea. Savvy politicians like Bill Clinton understand this. He and many others know you have to talk to the public in sound bytes such as "It is the economy stupid." Also, like I said before: what is most admired is a politician who looks good in front of the camera.

Ross Perot, with all his dire warnings way back then didn't count for squat. He was short and he sounded and looked like a troll. But now who has the last laugh??

Moreover, in general people have no tolerance for potential future "unappealing" realities. They do not want to be bothered trying to be actively proactive to rectify them until they blow up. Unfortunately, it is not our nature. And the fact remains that history is rife with our tendency to be reactive and rather than proactive. Pathetic and tragic.

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Life was good
Message #94 - 07/30/10 01:08 PM



PoorandUgly



You are correct, Proactive thinkers, are often trumped by status quo reactive squatters. Not only in politics but business as well. The one shoe fits all mentality, just on time distribution systems, six sigma, you name the TQL, it really doesn't matter, they reward followers and eliminate creativity. Follow the yellow brick road to success because that is how we always have done it. AS WE ALL GO OVER THE CLIFF

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PoorandUgly
Message #95 - 07/30/10 01:16 PM

By all means we should vote out all incumbents. But I wouldn't hold my breath let alone we should do our homework anyhow because if the next batch of politicians to come in still get a good deal of support financially from the fascists out there, you will still be a dead duck in the water for the next go around cycle. As long as many of these corporations get an ear from the next candidate for elected office, support for WTO and complete free trade, outsourcing, and growing demand for illegal immigrant workers will continue. Walls around border states ultimately does not address the real problem of cheap, illegal and/or foreign demand for labor which can be rectified to some extent with the stroke of a legislative pen.

I do not know what the complete answer politically as well as economically is but just trying to realistic with what probably will still likely continue regardless who gets into offices going forward.

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Life was good
Message #96 - 07/30/10 01:39 PM

I do not know what the complete answer politically as well as economically is but just trying to realistic with what probably will still likely continue regardless who gets into offices going forward.

There are many fronts in this battle for America, but one we should be able to agree on is the voice of the people is our representative government. We must first take the Peoples Voices back at all levels from County Commissioners to US Senators.



Without our representative government back in the peoples hands, all other battles will be lost by default.

[Virgil Showlion]

Jnap
Message #97 - 07/30/10 03:47 PM



I hear and read the same old thing many times "vote out the incumbents" and get new representation. Sorry but I happen to like my representatives and there is nothing you can do; unless you live in my state or district to vote against them.

Thank God the people we elect don't follow the ravings and edicts of the radical right wing or left wing for the matter.

All of this talk about stopping trade with the world would be a disaster. Remember it is a two way street. If we set up tariffs so will the rest of the world greatly affecting our ability to sell goods overseas. Yes, we have imbalance, and that needs to be addressed, but to do something drastic would only backfire. This was tried during the great depression and the results were to prolong the economic decline and cause even more job loses.

For the United States to get out of this recession we need a workforce of better educated people. China has more people graduating from college than the total count of students the US has in high school. Competing with China, with a population 4 times greater requires us to be 4 times smarter. But, in fact we have become less educated at a time when we need to be more.

It is impossible to turn back the clock; we have a worldwide economy and we must compete worldwide. Putting up fences such as tariffs will be about as effective as the fences between the US and Mexico.

To repeat myself, the unemployment rate for those with a college education in the US is 4% or less. And of course that makes sense because employers want better educated people who have a proven track record of being able to learn, evidenced by their degree.

In the same light let's look at factors relevant for being employable. 1) education and experience. 2) credit history because it shows integrity and responsibility. 3) drug use, physical fitness and health because it effects employer health care and benefit costs. 4) previous employment history reflecting job performance. 5) Memberships to social and business/professional organizations and continuing educational endeavors. Shows enthusiasm and desire to stay current in ones profession and balance in life.

If you have high scores on these things you are not looking for a job but are looking for an advancement.

At the same time look around at the way so many Americans are conducting their lives: Overweight or obese, poor credit, undereducated or irresponsible even to the point of walking away from a house they bought and can afford because it is "strategic". It is hard to separate these things from our economic troubles because they are a significant part of them.

Fix the things mentioned above and the economy will take care of itself.

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Life was good
Message #98 - 07/30/10 04:59 PM

All of this talk about stopping trade with the world would be a disaster. Remember it is a two way street. If we set up tariffs so will the rest of the world greatly affecting our ability to sell goods overseas. Yes, we have imbalance, and that needs to be addressed, but to do something drastic would only backfire. This was tried during the great depression and the results were to prolong the economic decline and cause even more job loses.

Currently it is not a two way street, Have you took a look at the trade deficits lately? have you noticed that not only have we outsourced manufacturing, but also services, such as customer support, why even the credit reporting agencies are sending customer calls to India. We (United States) being on the consumer end of trade, doesn't leave much to export. So if we were to apply an import tax on China or India, and they were to retaliate and do the same, Tell me again, what we send to China and India, that would punish our exports? Of course none of this can happen because America sold her soul to the WTO which has the ability to trump constitutional law.

To repeat myself, the unemployment rate for those with a college education in the US is 4% or less. And of course that makes sense because employers want better educated people who have a proven track record of being able to learn, evidenced by their degree.

I travel around the country a fair amount and doing so I talk with many college educated folks. Hotel bar tender, College Degree in Marketing, no other jobs available, Disappointed in job. Hooters waitress, Masters Degree in Physiology, waiting for opening in PhD program, only job available while she waits. Disappointed in job. Bachelors Degree in Aerospace Engineering in small town outside of Phoenix, currently Manager at Burger Joint. Disappointed in job. These are just a few examples of how very expensive educations have gone to waste in America. Is this what you consider employment for college education?

In the same light let's look at factors relevant for being employable. 1) education and experience. 2) credit history because it shows integrity and responsibility. 3) drug use, physical fitness and health because it effects employer health care and benefit costs. 4) previous employment history reflecting job performance. 5) Memberships to social and business/professional organizations and continuing educational endeavors. Shows enthusiasm and desire to stay current in ones profession and balance in life.

Were these the same qualifications used and necessary for the workers in China, India, Mexico? Of Course not. This and other factors is exactly why big business wanted out of America, was to avoid labor, benefits, environmental, taxation rules and laws.

At the same time look around at the way so many Americans are conducting their lives: Overweight or obese, poor credit, undereducated or irresponsible even to the point of walking away from a house they bought and can afford because it is "strategic". It is hard to separate these things from our economic troubles because they are a significant part of them.

Actually, I would argue they are an insignificant part of the problem. Have you been to Asia, Central or South America, Middle East? I have, the work force for the most part is uneducated, filthy, can be overweight or so malnutrition it's pathetic. If a worker complains, he or she just doesn't come to work the next day, because, there is a line up of people waiting for the next opening. Nothing less than slave labor.



I would suggest that you need to really educate yourself to the real problems we face in the world economy. It actually starts with the Monetary System and the Federal Reserve, Central Banking system. We cannot as individuals change that. But Congress our representatives can. To-date, they have refused (except for a very small few) to even discuss Monetary reform. The Trade Agreements were bad and entry into the WTO was not wise. We should demand nullification of those agreements and withdraw from the WTO. Then neg

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Funny2007
Message #99 - 07/30/10 06:47 PM



Re-flating and increasing tax revenues without raising tax rates is easy.



Since it appears that most corporations have cut all the jobs they could cut, and, since most, if not all at the bottom of the ladder have been laid off, one can no longer argue that keeping wages low helps untrained and uneducated workers get a job today, the first step would be to:



1/Raise the minimum wage to $15/hour, and index it on unemployment : the higher it raises the higher the minimum wage. This would give corporations an incentive to not cut or export jobs, just cut into profits and CEOs pay since it's--supposedly--based on "performance"--as was and is the case with banks, and non banks like Nardelli etc. just kidding.



2/As a result, the market would probably crash, reducing the value of all stock options. This in turn, may incite large holders etc. to exercise option and sell shares, which in turn will increase tax revenue--i.e.: capital gains.



4/TBonds Rates may finally rise--inflation scare--thus their prices would drop substantially, reducing the value of debt outstanding, forcing the Fed to raise rates, and giving retirees a chance to earn a decent income on their money. This would be better for both consumption and tax receipts since the current 0% rate on savings generates no income, thus no income tax at all.



5/From a political standpoint, a broad increase in US tax payers' income, from workers to retirees, would make the sharing of the tax burden much fairer, since it would not have to fall entirely on the super rich--a remark often heard on CNBC.



I know that this plan sounds crazy, but the previous one, which consisted in feeding consumption with debt and mortgages, so as to mask the absence of growth in middle class income, and make everyone feel richer as they were getting poorer in both absolute and relative terms, was much crazier. Let's look at history: when Ford started his company, he paid his workers well so they could afford to buy his cars. It worked for Ford and for the US for many years, as real growth to place with little or no credit for the average American.

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Jnap
Message #100 - 07/30/10 07:13 PM



If the US withdrew from the WTO and imposed the tariffs you suggest we would plunge into a depression that would exceed that of 1929. You insist that monetary policy, the Federal Reserve and WTO are responsible for the decline in the US economy. I insist it is the overall behavior of Americans and the declining education system that is responsible. History has proven time and time again that you can not curtail trade and have your economy grow. The days of the US, Europe and even Japan having the edge on manufacturing is gone. Much of the world can and does build many products cheaper and with equal quality. The hope for advanced countries is that they create the high tech products of the future. To do that requires a highly educated workforce. And in some cases assistance through tax incentives, grants and research funding from the Federal and local governments. It is not possible to curtail trade and have the economy grow at the same time. Forget about that approach because it can never work. The only way we will keep our current status as the number one manufacture in the world is to invent and develop the products of tomorrow.

The total trade between the US and all of the various countries around the world is about 3.5 trillion dollars. We have a deficit of about 800 billion and that is far too much. The only way that is going to change is for the US dollar to be valued lower and trading partner currencies valued higher. that would level the playing field somewhat and make American produced products cheaper. Do not forget it has been the American appetite for foreign produced goods with equal quality and cheaper price that has fueled the deficit. As long as foreign countries can produce something as good and cheaper Americans will buy it. And isn't that capitalism at work; competition with the company producing the best product at a cheaper price becoming the winner.

You can't change that basic fact of capitalism and certainly where capitalism is now worldwide. Some say that Chine is doing so well because they have become more capitalistic than we are. Maybe that is true because you can't deny that at this point they seem to be winning the capitalism war.

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PoorandUgly
Message #101 - 07/30/10 07:22 PM

The only way we will keep our current status as the number one manufacture in the world is to invent and develop the products of tomorrow.

Case in point contradicting above quote is one of the most successful and bigger than Microsoft now, large cap company called Apple computer. This US company is very inventive with its development and success of the current "tommorrow" products of the Iphone and Ipad with their sleek new designs and multifunctional technology. Yet, no Americans manufacture it. On the back of the device, it says "Made in China". Do not confuse design and invention with manufacturing. Two different things that have different effects on jobs, not the same.

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PoorandUgly
Message #102 - 07/30/10 07:56 PM

Unfortunately, Life is exactly right. I know many many graduates with so many degrees now and so much debt burying them in the dirt yet they are either unemployed or employed in such jobs that it was so not worth all the time and effort put to get to this point. This was 20-30 years in the making with all the policies that helped allow us to come to this place. People with engineering to math and science degrees are being replaced with cheaper "resources" overseas with those same degrees and skills. Bottom line is bidding for labor is going to the lowest common denominator wherever it is. Now, I am not arguing for trade sanctions etc.. But a partial solution I do advocate is this: If US large businesses want to either hire illegal immigrants or outsource a majority of their workforce to low wage foreign workers, then the US business should not have their headquarters situated here under the protect of our laws and rights. Get the hell out of here. Lets see how they like the "protection" of being located in China etc.. Constitutional protections and rights that now corporations use are surely one patented resource that is hard to outsource. They wouldn't dream of moving their headquarters out of the US. For instance, see what's been going on with Google lately?? Google is at the whim of no protections when dealing in business within China borders. You think they will ever move headquarters over there. Certainly not, but they have no problems outsourcing jobs there. The point is if rape is going to happen, at least this country should put up a damn fight. While US may overall be declining, one thing going for it that no other country can claim is the US constitution and how many hide behind it in terms of rights. Lets use it now for us the American people!!

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common_sense.
Message #103 - 07/30/10 09:08 PM

he only way that is going to change is for the US dollar to be valued lower and trading partner currencies valued higher

but then a tankful of soovie juice wil cost twice as much and the consumer will shut down again. See? no way out!

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neohguy
Message #104 - 07/30/10 09:14 PM



I haven't had time to watch the video yet Poor. I'll take the time this weekend to watch it.

I don't think there is a "real" solution to this recession. I don't even think it would be a good idea to have a quick temporary fix. If we suddenly "fixed" it then there would be nothing learned and people will resume their complacent attitude and nothing would be repaired. No pain no gain. Like Old and gray has indicated, if we don't correct the corruption and excess in the financial sector then the next fall will be even harder.

People are still holding on to their old way of thinking whether it's fair trade issues, moaning about losing their jobs but patronizing companies that outsourced jobs, or thinking that they are being clever in buying stocks in a market that is predominately controlled by HFT.

The country has a spine made out of jelly right now. They would rather their problems on the unborn rather than accepting some sacrifice and taking responsibility for problems that ALL of us contributed to.

I'll get back with you after I watch the video.

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Falling Sky - Not
Message #105 - 07/30/10 09:27 PM

1/Raise the minimum wage to $15/hour, and index it on unemployment : the higher it raises the higher the minimum wage

Problem is the government would only lie even more about the unemployment rate.

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Jnap
Message #106 - 07/30/10 10:00 PM



According to some of the opinions on this message board being fat, dumb, irresponsible, in debt and unhealthy is not a detriment to getting and keeping a job. I hope you have luck finding one with those credentials because that is some of the reasons jobs are going overseas. I will apply with my college degree and you apply with the previously mentioned bad credentials and we will see who gets the job and prospers. Oh and when jobs do become available for those college grads you mentioned they will be long gone while you still flip burgers.

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Life was good
Message #107 - 07/30/10 11:27 PM



Jnap,

According to some of the opinions on this message board being fat, dumb, irresponsible, in debt and unhealthy is not a detriment to getting and keeping a job.

I don't think anyone here is advocating poor work or ethics habits are desirable when hiring employees. What I am suggesting, that much more significant issue are driving jobs overseas, or why US Corps are not hiring in the US.

I will apply with my college degree

Academics have pressed for decades now and for the most part have won the battle for increased education in this country. The Education budget is enormous and continues to grow. We have children entering school at 4 and exiting school at 22 - 26 or more for advanced degree programs. At this point I think we can conclude that more education is not the answer. Maybe we should look at Quality of education. Continuing to press the one shoe fits all feet mentality just don't work. The social experiment needs to be terminated. The only reason that I can see it continues, is for nothing more than head count for dollars. Education is now big business for the dollars it brings in, (in the form of Teachers/Administrators jobs) not for the smarts it sends out.



I have had the privilege of working with HS seniors and College Fresh/sophs that were more than ready to accept the challenges I presented them in both soft and hardware. In actuality, some were just wasting there time going back to school for the sheep skin. On the other hand, I have witnessed the exact opposite, where, someone should have just kindly informed the young lad to seek a technical skill and save himself or papa a bunch of money.



I went way to long on this post.

---

Edward F. Dijeau
Message #108 - 07/31/10 08:00 AM



During World War Two, in 1942 most of our overseas trading partners were either in enemy hands or were spending every dime they could raise on defense. Those that traded with us needed loans to buy our arms, our food and consumables. Their factories were destroyed by bombs so our industrialization and agriculture had to take care of us and the rest of the Unconquered world. WW2 not only brought us out of the Depression, but, made us the largest lending country.

Now jump ahead 60 years to 2002. We close down our factories, pay farmers not to grow crops or grow them to make fuel and not food, Borrow money from China to pay for Two Wars that Congress funds from borrowing with no way to collect from the taxpayers, corporations or duties on imports for it. (remember John Kerry's statement "I voted for it before I voted against it" referring to the first version of the war funding bill had a funding clause, the second did not.) We are acting like a bombed out Europe and China is like the USA during the war. China has rationing just like we did during the war so that our industry would have the energy to put out more goods. That is why the lights go out after 10 PM so that at 6 AM there will be fuel enough to start production and that puts employees to work. Instead of a Hot war of military aggression, it is a war of Financial aggression to put 1.6 billion Chinese to work at any cost and you can not blame them for wanting to take care of their own. We just need to be as aggressive to take care of our own American Workers.

Our planet can only support so much manufacturing based on our needs to consume, those items made and the commodities or mineral wealth to make them. My wife has 300 pairs of Shoes. 99% of then are made in China. When she decides she has enough shoes, someone is china will loose a job. If the shoes were made here, then an American would lose a job. We are the largest single consuming nation on earth and it is not because we are fighting a war but because we love to consume. We love our stuff. My wife thinks she is "Investing" in "Shoes Futures" when she shops. Our recession has cost 30,000,000 American jobs but it has also cost 100,000,000 jobs in China, millions more in other countries and many of those who came to America, on Work Visa's, are going back and adding to their home countries unemployment.

The only way America will get back on top is to create jobs in "Value Added" manufacturing here at home or in Agriculture to help feed the world. This will start when we have Cheap energy like Nuclear, Solar and Wind power that is almost free after the initial investment is made to build it. When we don't need to turn 75% of the Corn we grow to Fuel, we can export the corn and balance our trade for my wife's shoes. We put millions af Americans to work building ships, tanks or planes of war in 1942. Today, we need Nuclear, Solar and wind Power plants, Television plants and Electric Car plants to win the Economic War. 300,000,000 Americans will want a new Flat screen, 3D televisions, over the next 5 years. Will they all be made overseas? How about cell phones, laptop computers or shoes? Will they all be made overseas as well? What if you could choose where your products are made, would you pay a little more for American Made? If you say no, then this whole discussion is for naught. You have chosen with the greedy corporations to Kill America and you are getting exactly what you deserve. Falling Market, higher taxes and eventually a devalued Dollar. If you chose to buy "Made in USA" and don't buy until it is made in USA, then you have spoken through the only terms big business understands and that's the Shopping Dollars you spend. The ultimate choice to what happens to America won't be from some executive on wall street, it will be us shoppers on main street.

[Virgil Showlion]

PoorandUgly
Message #109 - 07/31/10 02:07 PM

This will start when we have Cheap energy like Nuclear, Solar and Wind power that is almost free after the initial investment is made to build it.

The oil fascist conglomerates will do everything in their power and not to make sure that doesn't happen. All that does happen is our puppeteering fascist government paying only lip service to it. This has been a standard practice since then President tricky dicky Nixon first made the pledge for independence off oil by 1980! Like I said, sound bytes for the masses only. The future is always and only until the next election. Then all bets are off. No real addressing and solutions to problems because if anything it is a conflict of interest against the fascists who bought and paid for the politicians in office. This is our system and unfortunately will continue after this election in November 2010 just like the one in 2008. And you can pocket that change for sure. You will have a better shot taking that change to the slots in Vegas thereafter. Bet on it!

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Jnap
Message #110 - 07/31/10 08:52 PM



The energy issue is about economics. Let me give you an example. In Florida, Progress Energy is in the process of building a nuclear power plant. It will take 10 years and cost I don't know how many millions to build. At the same time Progress wants to raise the electric rate to help pay for the plant. The problem is that we don't want to pay for the plant because increased rates for ten years is not too attractive and there are no promises that rates will fall after the plant is built. So, current customers are expected to pay for a plant that will not return anything to them. It is a tough problem especially since Progress can build a coal or gas fired plant much cheaper, complete it much quicker, and not necessarily have to raise rates to do it.

I am for nuclear power but don't like the idea that I have to pay for it in advance.

Now if the cost of coal or gas were to skyrocket then it defiantly would make sense to go for nuclear. Until that happens does it make economic sense?

Here is another example. I can install solar electrical panels on my roof to produce the electricity I use most days for about $40,000.00. On the other hand I can buy $40,000.00 of Progress Energy stock and collect more than enough dividends to pay my electric bill and pay the tax on the dividend. That is one of the reasons why photo electric power generation hasn't taken off; because it is not yet cost effective. The same is true for oil. Until the cost of oil rises above the cost of the energy to replace it, alternate energy sources are just not going to be effective.

Now extrapolate the same logic into goods and services Americans are purchasing from foreign countries. It is not some nefarious scheme that has sent manufacturing to other countries it simply is that the products can be manufactured and shipped here for less money then if they were produced here. That is the damnedest thing about economics and Capitalism ultimately the lowest cost producer gets the business, all things being equal.

I don't like that part of Capitalism because it doesn't take into account the social costs associated with the purchase of foreign goods. It also doesn't take into account the lost technology, future improvements to that technology and the damage it does to our workforce. The other issues are the destruction of communities, loss of tax revenue and a general decline in living standards when a plant or business out sources or closes.

So here we are trying to reconcile how to get out of the recession and restore jobs while realizing that Capitalism can be a pretty tough system. Couple that with a loss of trust in Government, Bankers and business and you can see what a problem we have.

I do believe, as I have previously said, that the problem will take care of itself given enough time but thinking that a different political administration has some silver bullet or magical solution is just kidding yourself. It is up to individual Americans to put their lives in order and on a sustainable path otherwise we are going to see more of the same for a long time. Additionally, it is inconceivable to me that relevant education and personal integrity isn·t the foundation for that path.

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PoorandUgly
Message #111 - 08/02/10 01:38 PM

I do believe, as I have previously said, that the problem will take care of itself given enough time but thinking that a different political administration has some silver bullet or magical solution is just kidding yourself.

You had me at hello in your last post until this quote. With all due respect, the evidence has been ridiculously contrary to the above. Let's sum your quote with one word: "resiliency". In a prior post of mine, I mentioned how so many officials, fascists and outright liars from Greensnore to Bernanke to past and present Presidents were always trying to market us into believing how "resilient" our economy is/was. Yet, if mounds and mounds of debt and bailout manias and after other bailouts from before over the last 20-30 years is not proof to the contrary of your quoted thesis, then I do not know what is. (For starter, please see our not learning lesson by Bailout of LTCM in 1998 under Greensnore) So please do not tell me things will just take care of themselves. How much more debt and taxpayer money (like we can afford it!) will it take to be humble and learn that things just don't take care of themselves?

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PoorandUgly
Message #112 - 08/02/10 01:47 PM

And while economics of alternative energy is not feasible as oil is right now, do you honestly think even if it were that the oil conglomerates would let this industry just run over theirs without a political fight? For starters, did you see the Enron story how Lay was in like flint with the Bushes? Okay, Enron was not an oil company. Fair enough. How about Haliburton? Feel better now?

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Life was good
Message #113 - 08/02/10 02:37 PM

I mentioned how so many officials, fascists and outright liars from Greensnore to Bernanke to past and present Presidents were always trying to market us into believing how "resilient" our economy is/was.

This brings us back to What is the solution. We the people have one document called the US Constitution to fall back on. In my opinion it is our last fall back position and is necessary now, before it becomes nothing more than meaningless historic documents of the old way. We still have the peaceful power of the vote. Late is the hour, however, years of corruption from both Rep's and Dem's parties has rendered both houses of congress unable to perform the tasks necessary to save the union. Both parties have Monopolized the political process to the point that elections are not fair. If you are not a Dem or Rep, you have little to no chance of being heard or elected to any office, Local, State or National.



In order for the US to regain control of monetary policy, eliminate the Fed Reserve, abolish centralized banking, rebuild a currency that is asset backed. We need to wholesale flush the old Dem and Rep political guard. To do this, I am advocating, voting out all incumbents for the next 3 elections. This will put the Dem and Rep parties upside down and would likely allow third, forth, or more parties to emerge.



I see no other way, leaving the current corrupt political structure in place will yield the same results. We have no other peaceful weapon other then the Vote. If we agree that both parties are corrupt, then you must also assume, that anyone running for office in those parties is also corrupted.



If the people don't regain control of the Political system from Dog Catcher to President of the United States, than there is no Constitutional Solution.



The Central Bank Solution will be to usher in a new world currency backed by the world. Then the world law will be pronounced that no one will buy or sell with any other currency except the World Currency.

---

PoorandUgly
Message #114 - 08/02/10 03:27 PM

Life, on the constitution front, what do you think of a partial solution of using our patented constitution towards our outsourcing and illegal immigration hiring problem? Meaning that if a US domiciled big business corporation is going to hire majority of workers overseas at slave wage labor pricing, then at least the US should not roll over and play dead and let the company get away with tax loopholes and not hire American workers while headquartered here.

US govt should not allow company with headquarters over here to take advantage of protections afforded here while raping and pillaging this country at same time. Think of it this way : When a woman gets raped, should she say "Thank you sir, may I have another?" So I say to big business: You hire majority of workers in China, or hiring many illegal workers from Mexicans or other aliens without citizenship etc...? Good, get the hell out of here then and situate your headquarters in China, Mexico, or Vietnam etc.... We will see how they like the "protections" over there. While this solution is a dream, it is a solution in a real REPRESENTATIVE REPUBLIC (which we are not anymore) to protect the interests of American people. We are a fascist bought and paid for corpratocracy. That is why these bought and paid for politicians will probably never ever heed this recommendation.

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Life was good
Message #117 - 08/02/10 04:38 PM



By far the biggest most lucrative contracts are DOD. Simply put, no DOD contracts unless you are a registered US business, actively doing business in the US and 95% of employees must be US Citizens or of legal status. The other 5% could be foreigners. Outsourcing the defense of our country, shouldn't even be up for debate.



Concur, A US registered business should be required to follow US law, besides the law of the country in which they are engaged with. If they do not want to follow the US law in Mexico, then move to Mexico.



This is not new, military deployed overseas, fall under the uniformed code of military justice no matter where they are in the world. If a member of the military breaks a US law in a foreign country, he can be punished even if no law was broken in the foreign country. Case in point.



But then again, the US denies promotions to Generals with a divorce in his past, but loves a President that takes sexual advantage of an intern.

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Jnap
Message #118 - 08/02/10 05:05 PM



Life, I am sorry you have hung your beliefs, for a solution to the recession, on the Federal Reserve, Banking system and assets backed currency.

Lets start with asset backed currency, First, what would you use; gold or some other precious metal? How would that make sense when there are many other products or commodities that are far more valuable per ounce or measure of weight? I can name two immediately: Drugs and silicone chips. Then there is information which produces 16 billion dollars in profit for Microsoft each year and a similar amount for Google. How about pofessional people that produce virtually all of their income from knowledge as does at least a million US and worldwide companies. You would discard all of that and base wealth on something that has no real worth other than being scarce. Gold has no real value except what people place on it. It is never going to be something that backs our currency ever again, not when considering how many other things have greater value.

Second, let·s look at the Federal Reserve and its function. Instituted in 1907 its role is to: (This information was taken from Wikipedia).

1. Conducting the nation's monetary policy by influencing monetary and credit conditions in the economy in pursuit of maximum employment, stable prices, and moderate long-term interest rates.

2. Supervising and regulating banking institutions to ensure the safety and soundness of the nation's banking and financial system, and protect the credit rights of consumers.

3. Maintaining stability of the financial system and containing systemic risk that may arise in financial markets.

4. Providing financial services to depository institutions, the U.S. government, and foreign official institutions, including playing a major role in operating the nation's payments system.

These functions are extremely important and must be done by some entity so the FED, being neither private nor Government, does the Job. Because of the very nature of their function they are subject to criticism, at every level, but in the end it is an irreplaceable job and must be done by someone.

The Banking system operates under the direction and authority of the Federal Reserve using the four items above as their primary purpose. It can be debated endlessly whether the FED does a good job maintaining the banking system but the fact is there is no other recourse to having a central regulated banking system.

It can be argued, somewhat effectively, that the FED was responsible to some degree for the current recession. I do believe they are partially culpable but to destroy this system is nonsense because there is no other rational entity that can do the job. Even if it became the primary function of the Treasury it would still have to perform the four tasks shown above.

I remain convinced that we will recover and education and personal conduct will be the means just as it has been throughout our history.

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PoorandUgly
Message #119 - 08/02/10 07:29 PM

Watch the video from the link in the first post. Anyone who is a fan of learning and being cognizant of history, reality and/or truth should watch it.

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Life was good
Message #120 - 08/03/10 01:43 AM



Jnap,



I advocate following the US constitution. I also believe in ones education, especially in US and constitutional history. Reading, Math, Science, History are the cornerstones to learning.



I find the Department of Education guilty of promoting education without the cornerstones. The department should be eliminated.



I did not mean to upset you in my peaceful approach to taking back America from the Thieves and corrupt government officials.



This is no ordinary recession, it has all the makings of destroying the United States. By that I mean sending the Constitution to the burn pile.



Change is coming, with globalization, currency valuation issues, trade quota's etc. We can expect a one world currency to be seriously debated after the next crash, coming possibly this fall. If I was a one world advocate, I would want the one currency. But I am not, I believe our founding fathers had it correct in forming a Constitutional Republic.



All the politicians who swore to uphold and defend the Constitution and failed, should be tried for treason.



Courage

[Virgil Showlion]

PoorandUgly
Message #121 - 08/03/10 02:34 PM

Life, we must resist at all attempts from others towards advocating a one world currency. If we succumb to that, then the fascist oligarchs will be all the more powerful. Watch the link in the first post. It is excellent and helps get a 4 dimensional view on our reality for the longest of times. Think of it as freeing yourself from the "slavery of the matrix." But set some time aside as it around 3 hours in length.

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Life was good
Message #122 - 08/03/10 03:05 PM



P&U



We are there, the chess pieces are in place for Check Mate on the one world currency. Our only move is demand constitutional governance from our Coward and Corrupt politicians to Uphold and defend the constitution.



Before it is all said and done, the American People will gladly trade the constitution for a bag a rice and bottle of water.



Invest in food, water, precious metals, land.

---

great depression1
Message #123 - 08/03/10 03:11 PM

yesterdays rally was based on junk information,new construction starts are up.............wall street journal said because of governmental agencies creating the building projects.............more deficit spending of wasted printed tax dollars........its all smoke and mirrors,everything the democrats stand for is plastic and built on quick sand..........

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Life was good
Message #124 - 08/03/10 03:19 PM



I have made my position clear, Vote out all incumbents for the next 3 elections.

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PoorandUgly
Message #125 - 08/03/10 03:33 PM

yesterdays rally was based on junk information,new construction starts are up.............wall street journal said because of governmental agencies creating the building projects.............more deficit spending of wasted printed tax dollars........its all smoke and mirrors,everything the democrats stand for is plastic and built on quick sand..........

I concur. 90% I believe of the .1% increase in construction spending was from govt. The ISM report yesterday came in better than expected (what a surprise!) but was down again third consecutive month in row. Europe reports were better than expected (taking more pages out of US playbook). And China manufacturing report showed decline or slowdown but was manipulated in a good perception for the markets simply b/c it meant that maybe China would not have to tighten anymore to reign in hot economy.

Perception rules the roost however irrational or deceptive it may be. Either way, fascists run the show but to think this is a dem vs. repub issue is wrong. This is a fascist vs. non fascist issue. Both Republicans and Democrats do not give one iota about your money, only how to take it from you. Don't be duped by the elite to think otherwise.

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Life was good
Message #126 - 08/03/10 03:41 PM

Either way, fascists run the show but to think this is a dem vs. repub issue is wrong.

Both parties are the political monopoly and are pawns in the bigger game.



BTW thanks for starting this post and the links.

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PoorandUgly
Message #127 - 08/03/10 03:44 PM

No prob Life. Did you watch the video from the link?

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Life was good
Message #128 - 08/03/10 03:58 PM

Yup, I had actually watched that program several years ago, and it was good to watch it again. May not agree with every aspect, but the high points are indisputable. I have been making my investments (win some, lose some) ever since the signing of NAFTA convinced me that America was on a fast track to destruction. I thought Clinton was a bad president, Bush Jr. was worse, and now we have a socialist at the helm. Just when we need a constitutional Champion the most, we have only those looking to destroy it.

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PoorandUgly
Message #129 - 08/03/10 05:00 PM

It was very prescient in knowledge but off in timing. Timing is everything and whoever controls that has a lot of power.

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PoorandUgly
Message #130 - 08/04/10 01:47 PM

finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/110218/the-biggest-lie-about-us-%20%20companies?mod=bb-budgeting&sec=topStories&pos=3&asset=&ccode=

The above link I posted in another thread but bears worth repeating here in terms of discussing solutions. The link is just another example of the reality behind our smoke and mirrors economy. Just because you get a nice feeling from the effects of crack cocaine should not entice one to be a hopeless addict without any notion to the repercussions in the future.

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Jnap
Message #131 - 08/04/10 08:30 PM

null

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PoorandUgly
Message #132 - 08/04/10 09:05 PM

I watched the video and found it interesting. Unfortunately, it started with a premise and then manipulated the facts to fill the goal of trashing the Federal Reserve System, Banking, and finance. Additionally it tries to make a case that all economic activity has one goal and that is to make the "moneylenders" richer and richer without regard to anyone or anything else. That is just bullhocky because if you look at the economy of the United States during the last 80 years, the overall living standard of the average American has risen exponentially. The rise has been constant during these years except for the periodic recessions that accompany overheated economic activity.

Opinion is one thing, fact is another. What facts specifically did you not agree with? Which facts do you think are untrue? Moreover, I want to make this perfectly clear: moneylenders apply to all nationalities, races ,creeds, religions. Many diverse persons are such. But if they are connected with the top elite running things, that is all that counts. You will find more than not that some common denominators in all this can be found via the factory outlets from Haaarvard and other Ivy league pimping universities to fascist institutions such as Government Sux among other. Evidence shows that you will find a majority of officials in high government arenas and out of government come from these places. From running trading desks, to the federal govt agencies such as CFTC and SEC that overlook them, to the Presidency and Congress, to the CEO heads of corporate outfits who donate mightily to those govt officials. They are all connected and in the loop. And they owe no humble allegiance to God, country or humanity but simply to power and money, that is it. I never said the moneylenders control everything, only that which counts and is of most importance - again money and power. And it is not a republican thing or a democrat thing. It is a fascist thing.

Moreover on your next point, private centralized cartel of powerful banking is primarily for getting richer via compound interest for self first and foremost via control of money issuance and supply for function of a sovereign country's economy. Whoever controls that power need not even concern with those who make the laws of this land. And yes, some like the regional or local bankers such as the George Baileys of yesteryear had/have secondary cares for their "customers". But even then, it is still a secondary concern especially when things really start to unravel such as runs on a bank etc.. But regardless, these bankers do not represent a majority. And just because living standards improved over the last 80 year of time does not attribute that result nor outcome to the "wonders" of private centralized banking as you posit. I can make the same argument that Americans before even 1913, when the Fed was first established, lived exponentially better than the President 80-100 years before that. What does that prove?

[Virgil Showlion]

neohguy
Message #133 - 08/04/10 09:09 PM



I saw the video over a period of time on TV a few years ago. I watched an hour and a half of it this past weekend to see if I felt the same about it. It does a pretty good job in the beginning of describing what fiat currency is and how central banks came about. Then it goes down hill in blaming everything from war to whatever on powerfull banks without providing much evidence.

I'm not saying that banks don't play a part in the ills of the world but I thought the film was an over simplification. Switching control of banks from one group of people to another group will not solve our problems imo. Greed congregates wherever huge sums of money are controlled.

---

PoorandUgly
Message #134 - 08/04/10 09:18 PM

Then it goes down hill in blaming everything from war to whatever on powerfull banks without providing much evidence.

Neo, all wars are not free. Both sides in a war have to be financed somehow. Throughout history, those funds are borrowed and since the 1600's in Europe and off and on again here, where do the funds come from? Trees? And do you not think that war is not profitable to certain interests?? Lives lost is the last thing on their minds in all likelihood.

I'm not saying that banks don't play a part in the ills of the world but I thought the film was an over simplification.

Yes, indeed it was an oversimplification. It is trying to address a diverse audience for comprehension purposes. And you wonder why our politicians speak in sound bytes to us?

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PoorandUgly
Message #135 - 08/04/10 09:23 PM

Switching control of banks from one group of people to another group will not solve our problems imo.

No it won't solve all our problems, never was intended to. But switching control from a private central banking cartel to a US public sovereign one again will certainly help. It was done before so it can be done again (now unfortunately with greater difficulty though).

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neohguy
Message #136 - 08/04/10 09:30 PM

Yes, it was an oversimplification. It is trying to address a diverse audience for comprehension purposes. And you wonder why our politicians speak in sound bytes to us?

The type of person that watches PBS tends to be more thoughtful imo. They could have done a better job. It was over 3-1/2 hrs along and seemed to consist of at least 3 hrs of accusations without much evidence. Maybe it's true, maybe not. That particular film reminded me more of what one could expect on The History Channel or The Learning Channel. It would have convinced me more if they spent more time detailing their allegations with evidence instead of just an endless series of accusations.

I don't really care for videos. Give me a book with foot notes any day of the week.

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PoorandUgly
Message #137 - 08/04/10 09:38 PM

3 hours is rather long. Which accusations do you refer? Much of the film gave quotes and history.

I know what you mean about books with footnotes, The sources are right there at the bottom of the page for ease of the reader to observe. But then again, even with books and their corresponding footnotes, who is to say the source in that footnote is completely accurate? Then you take out that book and get more footnotes and bibliographies for greater evidence and it can go on and on like branches of a tree.

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Life was good
Message #138 - 08/04/10 09:41 PM

The last few posts really opened my eyes P&U. When your in love, you have a tendency to be blind. I just didn't realize we had folks so much in love with the Fed. My bad for assuming!

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neohguy
Message #139 - 08/05/10 11:23 AM

The last few posts really opened my eyes P&U. When your in love, you have a tendency to be blind. I just didn't realize we had folks so much in love with the Fed. My bad for assuming

Life was good, I didn't see anything in the preceding posts that said anybody is in love with the fed. You, decoy, and a few others have a bad habit of saying things like that when someone disagrees with you.

I have a lot of respect for poor. Poor used to post here a few years back. If I remember correctly (big if), poor is a young person that questions things. I appreciate that, we need more people like that. I may not agree with everything but I appreciate a style that can discuss a difference of opinions. Often times one or the other, sometimes both, land up learning a thing or two as a result.

I was somewhat of a left leaning pro labor activist back in the 60's and 70's. Even so, I listened to serious arguments from the opposing view from people like Bill Buckley Jr. Why? Because Bill made some good points and there was also some common ground between the left and the right.

Today, I keep up with writings from people like Ralph Nader and Bill Crystal. Many people think they are polar opposites. They're not.



Life IS good

" The only thing the dead know is that it's better to be alive"

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Life was good
Message #140 - 08/05/10 11:48 AM



Neohguy



I did not mean to hit a nerve with you.



Regardless, the #1 financial issue IMO, is Central Banking and the Federal Reserve. By design it is a debtor system. I have paid hundreds of thousands of dollars (Income tax) in my lifetime in taxes supporting our federal, state and local governments. Imagine if the Federal Reserve Act and the 16th amendment had not come into play.



Where did all my taxes dollars go? Hmmm to service who's debt?

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neohguy
Message #141 - 08/05/10 01:11 PM

I did not mean to hit a nerve with you.

You didn't. Believe it or not, even you and I have some common ground!

Regardless, the #1 financial issue IMO, is Central Banking and the Federal Reserve. By design it is a debtor system. I have paid hundreds of thousands of dollars (Income tax) in my lifetime in taxes supporting our federal, state and local governments. Imagine if the Federal Reserve Act and the 16th amendment had not come into play.

I disagree. The biggest problem is an electorate that elects politicians that allow this policy. The politicians don't seem to know much and the electorate is apathetic.

The subject was covered extensively in the tsunami thread. Essentially, politicians surround themselves with these soothsayers.

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PoorandUgly
Message #142 - 08/05/10 01:45 PM

The biggest problem is an electorate that elects politicians that allow this policy. The politicians don't seem to know much and the electorate is apathetic.

Absolutely, the electorate and politicians need to be more educated and open but lets be cognizant to the likely notion that we cannot expect policy like this simply to come up in a vote to overturn easily. Even some were pushing to open up the Fed books and look where that got. The important point I believe is whomever has a tight grip on controlling a nation's supply and issuance of money has more power and need not concern themselves routinely with the laws made from the politicians or the electorate represented behind it.

I have a lot of respect for poor. Poor used to post here a few years back. If I remember correctly (big if), poor is a young person that questions things.

I consider myself an old geezer but then again, age is just a number. Just like your social sec number, it's just another number in your profile that you do not really want to disclose if you can. Moreover, yes, I guess I do question things, probably more than I should. But then again, being skeptical has not only helped me avert danger but allowed me to thrive in the process as well. Now more than ever, with everyone and anyone trying to dominate peoples' minds, bodies and souls, you kind of have to step back and question before diving in. Has it really been a few years? Wow, how time flies. But this time around, whoever said I or this country for that matter is having a good time??

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1kevin
Message #143 - 08/05/10 01:46 PM

Gov stole $30k from each tax paying person to bail out banks. Tax the banks and give each tax paying person a $40K stimulus

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Life was good
Message #144 - 08/05/10 01:55 PM



As unpopular as my political position has been in some of the posts, I still firmly stand that in order to flush the corrupt political system, we must vote out all incumbents for the next three elections. This will put the Dem and Rep parties in disarray and my hope would be to create an opportunity for other political parties to emerge. We need to destroy the Monopoly held by the Dem's and Rep's in order to get to the real root problem and that is the current Federal Reserve System.



Just my opinion!

[Virgil Showlion]

neohguy
Message #145 - 08/05/10 01:57 PM

I consider myself an old geezer but then again, age is just a number.

Well fellow geezer, we need young people that question what's going on. More importantly, we need people that are willing to do something about it. Personally, I'm not counting on anyone born prior to 2001.

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PoorandUgly
Message #146 - 08/05/10 02:08 PM

Well fellow geezer,

Your a good guy neo. I am not on par with you. Let's just say I am between 20-40, fair enough?

Personally, I'm not counting on anyone born prior to 2001.

I guess you can count me out then. But I wouldn't hold my breath on younger generation(s) either. I think I brought this up once before a while ago - the generation "war" but just to be brief my personal opinion is my grandparents and their generation truly were the Greatest generation. Their kids, baby boomers were not as good by a stretch and our generation (Gen X, Y, and now millenials) are a joke that all the more followed in the selfish baby boomer generation. I remind you this is my OPINION on this. That is just how I feel on that front.

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Life was good
Message #147 - 08/05/10 02:18 PM



neohguy



I have grave concerns about the Children born 70's to 90's. Sadly these are our children, they are spoiled, as is that entire generation.



This is why we need a significant overhaul of monetary policy in this country. The spoiled generation is not equipped to handle what is coming soon.



We have a difficult tasks in undoing what our fathers and grandfathers allowed to occur in the United States. We cannot count on our Children, so it is left to us to force the necessary changes to save the union for our Children and Grand Children.



If not us, then we will standby and watch the United States Constitution completely destroyed in our lifetime.

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neohguy
Message #148 - 08/05/10 02:59 PM

I guess you can count me out then. But I wouldn't hold my breath on younger generation(s) either. I think I brought this up once before a while ago - the generation "war" but just to be brief my personal opinion is my grandparents and their generation truly were the Greatest generation. Their kids, baby boomers were not as good by a stretch and our generation (Gen X, Y, and now millenials) are a joke that all the more followed in the selfish baby boomer generation. I remind you this is my OPINION on this.

I can't disagree with you. We started out on the right foot but completely lost our way by 1980. The generation became the ultimate capitalistic pigs that we used to rail about years earlier. There is nothing wrong with being a capitalist but it becomes wrong when you are a pig about it. I think generations X and Y where overwhelmed by our shear numbers and never had a chance. We are now starting to die off so I think the very young or yet to be born will hopefully bring us back to sanity.

I first became interested in the later 80's. I had my eye on a US owned mining interest in Brazil. I asked my sister, a very successful investor what she thought of it. I was surprised when she sent me literature that showed the mine was largely staffed by laborers that lived in worse than slave conditions. They had it better than convicts that were rented to the company by local "leaders". When I told my "friend", who had given me the tip, about this he shrugged and said "Do you want to make a lot of money or not?".

Today, the entire investment community has little conscience. Try picking out a fund for your 401k that doesn't own this type of company or a dividend paying stock whose claim to fame is outsourcing your neighbors livelihood. One of the main holdings in our social awareness funds is GS!

I'm not naive. I know big business has always been brutal. People that invested in rr's in the 19th century made fortunes savaging the west. The difference today is that anyone who has a self directed retirement account is actively supporting this behavior.

Like you, this is just my opinion and I am not condemning any generation or group of people.

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rovo
Message #149 - 08/05/10 03:31 PM



I look at these generational problems a little differently than you guys. One of the largest problems is personal debt as this is holding back consumer spending. This personal debt is being paid down in lieu of purchasing new goods. Personal saving rates are still increasing but the funds are going into debt repayment instead of "savings". Published savings rate consider debt repayment as savings.

Generally speaking, the consumer has bought ahead. This means he has promised his future earnings for yesterday's consumption. The consumer is unable to spend any more money on things other than basic necessities.

The statistic I don't see, but would be interesting to see, is the average debt load by age. This would be, in my opinion, a defining data point on which generation has screwed the pooch. I would expect the current 20s to 40's years of age to have the highest debt load since they are the most likely group to still have a mortgage. I would also expect the 40's to 60's to have significantly less debt for the same reason.

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PoorandUgly
Message #150 - 08/05/10 03:58 PM

I look at these generational problems a little differently than you guys. One of the largest problems is personal debt as this is holding back consumer spending. This personal debt is being paid down in lieu of purchasing new goods. Personal saving rates are still increasing but the funds are going into debt repayment instead of "savings". Published savings rate consider debt repayment as savings.

I am glad you brought this up. Debt is one of our biggest symptoms or consequences of western society that actually crosses between the generations. In general, the Greatest Generation has paid off their mortgages (lets put aside other debt for now) while at the opposite end, the younger generations are either mired in it from the smoke screen real estate bubble over the last 5-10 years or they want nothing to do with it anymore if for no other reason than national job insecurity and instability.

A bigger lesson in all this is it is no surprise that debt is at its largest in terms of % of GDP etc now,,,. Why? Because one thing that was passed down from generation to generation in stronger conveyance was the motto "Me, me, me, I got to have that item whether Iphone or Elmo doll, or beany baby etc...now now now!". No humble frugal consideration for the future. Everyone is special, spoiled, selfish and deserves it all without earning and paying for it. There can be no losers. No one should pay, Everyone should be bailed out of their mistakes. This is not a government or private industry thing. This is an overall generational societal thing. The Greatest Generation were masters of future sacrifice. And we have come 180 degrees around to my generation as masters of myopic recklessness etc.. And now we will pay the price as I believe we may be in a prolonged deleveraging super cycle down that happens every 80-100 years. We got to learn sometime don't we? It is just a shame it may have to be the hard way. Big bubbles and super deleveraging in the past have occurred based on economies we couldn't imagine today from the South Sea Bubble to the Tulip Bulb Mania to the Depression of 1873 to Depression of 1930's to .............................................................

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decoy409
Message #151 - 08/05/10 04:00 PM



rovo , that is a very interesting look,the dept by age cat. that is. Actually it is a scary look when you ponder for a moment about it.

While I agree with neo,poor and ugly,Life was good,as to today's youth,your debt by age is a good one.



The age of it's ok to do that had arrived and it's ok to that was justified as being acceptable. Once their was acceptance by it's ok to do it installed amongst humans,was when their was no turning back. The greatest lie had been sold in history.

Kids on the corner on their way home from school,6,7,8, years old young with a cell phone in their hand. The age of the video game,gays giving church sermons,you name it,IT'S ALL OK.

The distribution of debt. Heck unless the kid is coming out of a elite home,then I see major debt loads right now strapped on the backs of the youth. And guess what? The majority of the youth have no idea what is going on out here. So this individual situation is just another time bomb waiting to go off,set and waiting. No different than the housing market came out to be.

I am looking at job creation in this country and attacking debt,however that thought as a serious one as actually happening,in a loving and caring way,for all mankind,into the future,is not a realistic one. Serious 'change' is amongst us.

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PoorandUgly
Message #152 - 08/05/10 04:11 PM

Everyone thinks, in addition to its government aiding and abetting via tax subsidies that the latest lesson we should all follow is everyone should own their own home and guarantee that prices go indefinately up for all . So you are telling me the frugal American citizen who happens to be a renter NOT IN DEBT does not count??? What if they are unemployed?? Why is it that the debt burdened but unemployed homeowners get special privileges but unemployed saving renters get punished??? Why should responsible savers be punished? Why do you give more tax subsidies to borrow for an unproductive 'asset" called a home?? Many still do not see the madness of this. Even Uncle Baby Boomer Ben thinks the answer and prayers to all our problems is to add more piles of debt on existing defaulting debt. That is all he is doing/considering. You can give it all the fancy words you want from Quantitative Easing to buying mortgage backed securities to keeping rates low. He and others seem to be either hopelessly blind or just plain sinister. Either way, it is more evidence of the madness of our current society. This is a societal thing that has gotten so out of whack that now we are drowning in the debt of arrogance, ignorance, selfishness, recklessness, robber barron fascism that these are the real culprits. How do you rectify this? It is a vicious cycle which we are succumbing to in greater strength now down. And yet they did that unforgivable 2008 Bailout as a get rich quick scheme at expense of all others as some sort of real solution??? For the sole benefit of the fascists, that made responsible Main Street worse off!!!!!!! And the fascist media want to question WHY the public has little confidence in officials, markets etc.... The nerve of them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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sangria
Message #153 - 08/05/10 04:23 PM

That's an interesting point, job insecurity, especially as it relates to real estate sales. You could have a young couple, living in an apartment, wanting to buy a house, they have $100,000 cash in the bank, but because of job insecurity they stay in that apartment. A smart move really.

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Life was good
Message #154 - 08/05/10 04:26 PM

Serious 'change' is amongst us.

Serious Change, cannot be conduct by those that accept the status Quo, or just hope things will get better because they always have in the past.



We need a Serious look at the entire Monetary System and how to make it work for the people, instead of the people working for it.

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PoorandUgly
Message #155 - 08/05/10 04:29 PM

That's an interesting point, job insecurity, especially as it relates to real estate sales. You could have a young couple, living in an apartment, wanting to buy a house, they have $100,000 cash in the bank, but because of job insecurity they stay in that apartment. A smart move really.

You darn skippy. Many now cannot expect to plant themselves for the long term in anyone location because unless your job is secure, stable and decent in terms of income, how can one someone make such a commitment not withstanding the fact it will be the largest purchase in their life plus the fact there SHOULD be no guarantee the value of such home will necessarily appreciate anytime soon but demand great cash infusions for everything from maintenance to property taxes etc... For better or worse, survival of the fittest demands people to be cash rich (liquid) mobile and flexible, not only domestically but globally too.

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Life was good
Message #156 - 08/05/10 04:34 PM

The statistic I don't see, but would be interesting to see, is the average debt load by age. This would be, in my opinion, a defining data point on which generation has screwed the pooch.

The data will be interesting between 1990 and 2005. From 2005 forward you probably would see 50 - 60 year olds carrying more debt prior to 2005. Why? Mom and Pop took on more debt, and in some cases went from debt free to indebt to save there children. This really escalated during the Housing Bubble and then the Job loses.



I am part of the generation that is taking care of my parents and children, and maybe I have 10 years left. Then What?



I find this time in our history, as the last opportunity to save the US Constitution and preserve the union.

[Virgil Showlion]

neohguy
Message #157 - 08/05/10 04:42 PM

That's an interesting point, job insecurity, especially as it relates to real estate sales. You could have a young couple, living in an apartment, wanting to buy a house, they have $100,000 cash in the bank, but because of job insecurity they stay in that apartment. A smart move really.

Also, with unstable house prices, a young couple could be trapped there should they want to relocate.

The statistic I don't see, but would be interesting to see, is the average debt load by age. This would be, in my opinion, a defining data point on which generation has screwed the pooch. I would expect the current 20s to 40's years of age to have the highest debt load since they are the most likely group to still have a mortgage.

This calculator is a little dated (2002-2003) but it provides interesting information. I entered an annual salary of 50k-100k/yr and there was little difference between ages 30, 40, and 50 but a big difference for age 60+. I then entered 100k-200k for annual (middle class couple) and looked at those numbers. 30's 247k debt 50's 165k debt. I think 60+ might be a mistake because it said 221k debt. edit, if the 60's info is correct then it looks like it was due to hitting up the home equity.

www.smartmoney.com/personal-finance/debt/do-you-have-too-much-debt-14183/

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PoorandUgly
Message #158 - 08/05/10 04:47 PM

I would probably agree with you Life on the data as you posit. But even left out by Rovo's initial inquiry into that, you cannot leave out and have to consider the savings rate in all this too. In general, right now, while the savings rate is finally starting to climb (which I expected for a while now which is long overdue), the rate currently 5-6% is still way below the long term historical average of 10%-12%. The thing that is really scary in all this is that overall we are drowning in past and currently accruing debts but simultaneously lack revenue and hence growing incomes to save at all anymore - at least referring to growing jobless segment of America out there. And who is to say in next recession, we won't get another (god for bid) push up in losses of jobs. Debt destruction is now all the more the cause of all this. It is the necessary reaction for our past actions. And unfortunately, based on prior posts of mine, as a general once overbinging and trigger happy go borrower society, we deserve this mess now.

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sangria
Message #159 - 08/05/10 04:57 PM



Neo is right about unstable housing prices being a whole 'nother can of worms. There are many companies around that when they tell you that you are transferred (maybe to a different state), employees smile and say "thank you, may I have some more?" Resisting a transfer is not an option. It makes it hard for young people to believe they are building a future for themselves. No future is a condition of being in prison, but not for the rest of us (unless somebody here is posting from prison).









Decoy?

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neohguy
Message #160 - 08/05/10 05:07 PM

Resisting a transfer is not an option. It makes it hard for young people to believe they are building a future for themselves. No future is a condition of being in prison, but not for the rest of us (unless somebody here is posting from prison).

Good point. My first job after being "retrained" in the early 80's was in SW, Ohio. It paid 40% more than what I could find locally at the time. No problem, I was renting. Moved down there and rented a nicer house for the same $. If I owned then it would have been harder. If I was underwater then it would have been impossible.

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PoorandUgly
Message #161 - 08/05/10 05:08 PM

No future is a condition of being in prison, but not for the rest of us (unless somebody here is posting from prison).

Nice! That's deep too. All I want to know is where you hiding your stash sangria?? jk.

Cheech and Chong pic?

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PoorandUgly
Message #162 - 08/05/10 05:09 PM

Oh wait, how bout Arnaaald Swarteneggar smoking a fat one back in the day? Get a pic of that if you can.

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PoorandUgly
Message #163 - 08/05/10 05:13 PM

I love it, California is moving towards the pot route to help solve their financial woes. Who would have thunk it???

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neohguy
Message #164 - 08/05/10 05:17 PM

I love it, California is moving towards the pot route to help solve their financial woes. Who would have thunk it???

Beerfan says that California bud is better than Vancouver bud. I have no idea how he finds this information .

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PoorandUgly
Message #165 - 08/05/10 05:17 PM

Actually it is interesting you bring up prison too, sangria. Many unemployed people cannot even get accepted at jobs at McDonald's due to scarcity of jobs and demographic issues. So now, they are worried to death (literally) how they will make it. This is so sad and scary. More Americans are considering actually prison, if for no other reason than not starving to death so they get 3 squares a day, some form of shelter and getting treated for free for medical conditions etc.. We are not talking about reckless fools of borrowers or others, we are talking about honest hardworking individuals who desperately want to work who cannot find work and are at their wits end in these terribly difficult times.

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decoy409
Message #166 - 08/05/10 05:30 PM



sangria , nice pic and a great movie! But no I am not.



What we have and have had going down is 'change.' 'Change' comes in all forms and by all means to make it happen. The U.S. has no choice except to reduce wages in order to be competitive with others in the world. And laws that have been established were done so as I have called moves for 'change' Foot in The Door.

Amazing thing Foot in The Door. Just classic as how it works.

Harley-Davidson Could Leave Milwaukee

Updated: Thursday, 05 Aug 2010, 8:36 AM CDT
Published : Thursday, 05 Aug 2010, 7:44 AM CDT

FOX Chicago News

Chicago - After 107 years, Harley-Davidson could be leaving Milwaukee. The company is threatening to move its manufacturing to another state if it cannot bring down labor costs.

Harley's corporate headquarters would stay in Wisconsin, but it would still be a tough blow to the area that's been slowly losing the companies tied to its identity.

Two years ago, the parent of Miller moved its U.S. headquarters to Chicago.

Schlitz, "the beer that made Milwaukee famous," sold out to a Detroit company in the 1980s.

Harley-Davidson is the city's only signature brand left.

What was somebody just saying about relocating and your house? And one other thing back there as to your Constitution. Your Constitution has been invaded and awaits with Foot in The Door. It's replacement is the Patriot Act. If you are unfamiliar with how the Patriot Act came about and how it works and the constant add ins and revisions,well today would be a very good time to start learning as 'change' is upon us.

I don't care as I have said Dem. or Rep. as I have called it as I see it Good Cop vs Bad Cop,all after the same but disguise it as being the opposite.

[www.infiniteunknown.net/2009/08/08/obama-leaves-bushs-nspd-51-intact/] Obama leaves Bush’s NSPD 51 intact www.infiniteunknown.net/tag/national-security-presidential-directive-51/

Now people can acept what is and has been going on or continue to ignore. I have time lined through HISTORY many,many examples. However the majority have been stupified. And I am sorry to say that the consequences that we all now bear are all but here. The movie folks is getting really good in a very bad way.

Directive 51, (turn down the dramatic music,but do not dimiss what IS ON THE BOOKS!)

What we chose to ignore

Why look Life was good,$385 mil. awarded to Kellogg,Root & Brown.

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rovo
Message #167 - 08/05/10 05:30 PM



I don't have a date for this article / data so be aware it could be older than I would like it to be.

Average debt by age group in the U.S. Age Debt Age Debt 18-29 $8,636 50-59 $20,157 30-39 $16,298 60-69 $15,964 40-49 $18,659 70+ $6,500

excludes mortgage debt.

moneycentral.msn.com/content/banking/yourcreditrating/P120358.asp

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rovo
Message #168 - 08/05/10 05:33 PM

Decoy, You are really starting to get me PO'd with irrelevant stuff.

[Virgil Showlion]

sangria
Message #169 - 08/05/10 05:35 PM



I always thought it was a Marlboro.

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PoorandUgly
Message #170 - 08/05/10 05:48 PM

Yes!!!!!!!! I love it. Thanks sangria.

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decoy409
Message #171 - 08/05/10 05:56 PM



Executive Order #11051



Grants authorization to put all Executive Orders into effect in times of international tensions and ECONOMIC or FINANCIAL CRISIS.



NSPD/HSPD 20,AND 51



"Catastrophic Emergency means ANY incident,that results in extraordinary levels of mass casualities,DAMAGE or DISRUPTION severely affecting the U.S. POPULATION,INFRASTRUCTURE,ENVIROMENT,ECONOMY,or government functions."



The ONLY THING holding up the show for your new new Constitution (the Patriot Act) to come into play is some general population chaos. And as I write I think of the various pushing going on to allow that to happen and then of course it will be justified and then all should simply follow the new way. These are some of the 'stand out' reasons I call this a 'planned demise.'

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great depression1
Message #172 - 08/05/10 06:03 PM

THIS IS THE (ONLY) SOLUTION:



UNTIL A "TRUE ECONOMIC RECOVERY" NOT A "TAX STIMULUS BASED RECOVERY" TAKES PLACE

THIS WILL BE AN ONGOING TREND.



INCREASING TAXES: KILLS THE ECONOMY.



PRINTING MORE CURRENCY: CREATES INFLATION (AN INCREASE IN THE COST OF GOODS AND SERVICES

IN OUR ECONOMY DUE TO THE DEVALUATION OF THE US DOLLAR) KILLS THE ECONOMY.



*****



THE "KEY" TO OUR ECONOMIC RECOVERY ALSO LIES IN OUR "PRIVATE SECTOR" AND NOT OUR "GOVERNMENT SECTOR"

BECAUSE EVERYTHING IN OUR "GOVERNMENT SECTOR" IS FUNDED WITH TAXPAYER "PRIVATE SECTOR" MONEY WHICH

"TAKES AWAY" FROM OUR "TRUE ECONOMIC RECOVERY.



*****

Icouldnt agree more!

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Life was good
Message #173 - 08/05/10 06:51 PM

The ONLY THING holding up the show for your new new Constitution (the Patriot Act) to come into play is some general population chaos. And as I write I think of the various pushing going on to allow that to happen and then of course it will be justified and then all should simply follow the new way. These are some of the 'stand out' reasons I call this a 'planned demise.'

This is why the time is short and action by the courage's is now or never! (It may already be to late)

If you love this country and have an honest desire to save the union, then stand up for her now! If not go back to playing the penny slots.

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Goofy Goober
Message #174 - 08/05/10 07:18 PM

You see, this is not a republican or democrat issue. This is an issue of POWER AND MONEY and who should control it. Both democrats and republicans are the same representatives for the same interests. Is that a representative republic??? Bottom line is this: Whoever owns the power to issue and control our the money owns us.

That's true. The Federal Reserve owns Washington DC. This b.s. has been going on for 100 yrs now. They create all the booms and busts artificially. Nothing is real anymore...

Read the book, "The Creature From Jekyll Island: A Second Look at the Federal Reserve". It reads like a play book of the current financial mess we're in, only difference is, the book talks about the Great Depression and all the things they did back in that time. The current administration is doing exactly the same things they did back in the 30's. You can see a pattern in how they do things by reading that book. They always do the same things to "try" and fix the economy and when they do, they always come out on top while we the taxpayers get stuck with the bill. How can no one see the elephant in the room??? The sooner the people learn about these aholes, the sooner we can bring their empire down and return to fiscal responsibility. The only true regulator is money backed by something of value like gold and silver. You can't create gold or silver out of thin air like you can with paper.

Check out this video about the book.

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decoy409
Message #175 - 08/05/10 07:35 PM



Goofy , I am thinking back about mid and is this not the same stuff they presented to everybody? This is the final round Goofy,and the bell did ring for many rounds. Now we wait the final rounds end. Nothing more will be done by anybody until they are forced to take a stand. They know this and they have prepared for it,and I put that out once again this morning. It is real,and it is on the books. Soon the Civil Unrest will be breaking out and you will see more and more quelling of it by those that are on stand by and ready to go.

How do we induce Civil Unrest? Well here is a good one that is happening across the board before winter,cut the utilities. People can speak all they like about those having their utilities cut our dead beats. However that is a lie,propaganda is what it really is. Nobody is going to make me believe that many that this is happening to are simply dead beats. There are many that simply lost their job.used their savings,and in turn are SOL.

But you know something,come winter when daddy and mommy have no help and the kids are suffering,many daddies are not going to be simply sitting back. In comes Civil Unrest.

Since the housing market has been proved to be a Sham WoW,how about adjusting what that owner owes. Actually give them a break. Since all of these jobs are coming into play as FTI said so himself yesterday,than payments can wait and people can stay in their houses. After all jobs are coming back to over 20 milion out of work now,right.

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PoorandUgly
Message #176 - 08/05/10 08:31 PM

Okay, who was the filthy little culprit who put a trojan horse or antivirus on my computer??? I think I am okay now but I will just have to wait and see as time rolls on.

Maybe it is true what they say about certain groups or entities reading and monitoring these boards and doing something about certain posters if they for whatever reason object to what is posted. Like I said earlier in thread, not big on conspiracy theories, but in this age it seems like anything is possible.

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neohguy
Message #177 - 08/05/10 08:39 PM

Okay, who was the filthy little culprit who put a trojan horse or antivirus on my computer??? I think I am okay now but I will just have to wait and see as time rolls on.

I notice that my firewall often activates when I go to the page that has the message boards listed.

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PoorandUgly
Message #178 - 08/05/10 08:48 PM

No, it wasn't like that. It was really infected and messed up. But I had to be fast and proactive so I had to shut down and restart computer 2 times. Upon second time, the insidious infected virus or trojan was pretending to be my antivirus program telling me I have a problem as computer booted up.

Warning to all: there may be a worm, trojan or virus pretending to be your antivirus program attempting to do keylogging and infecting computers. Solution for me was I quickly implemented the system restore feature and even as that was completing the trojan or whatever was taking over but system restore got finished, shut down and successfully restored my computer to earlier date. Just for precaution, I also ran an updated antispyware search. So hopefully now my fingers are crossed with this.

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sangria
Message #179 - 08/05/10 08:56 PM

[www.bing.com/images/search?q=images+of+cats+on+computers#focal=303503c73e862d9686b011900f796d7a&furl=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/aquabat/computer_cat.jpg] Fluffy sends viruses all the time.

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Jnap
Message #180 - 08/05/10 11:26 PM



Oh Come on MT posters you are getting a little to close to what Arnold was smoking. The debt load statistic that ROVO posted is not that high considering that much, or most of it, could be for purchasing an automobile.

As far as whether to purchase a house or rent it is a personal decision based on family size, stable employment, likelihood of needing to relocate for employment (without company assistance) and the simple fact that we all need a roof over our heads. For those in my generation buying a home was a good decision because it allowed us to save some money (by building equity), get a tax break, provide some semblance of permanency by owning something in the community and to personalize our residence. I don·t believe that the primary reason for buying was for investment purposes and certainly not for speculating with our future earnings by becoming indebted and highly leveraged. Indeed, being obvious that a residence and roof was needed, buying was a very conservative thing to do. However, there were requirements that had to be met which reduced unwise speculation.

This recession has been caused, in large, by ignoring even fundamental rules of sound lending and borrowing practices. It was inevitable that something was going to hit the fan and that many would not be smelling too good when it did. That we are still in the cleanup phase is not unexpected considering the size of pile uh·.problem.

That it was allowed to happen is of concern because it could have and should have been stopped long before it became the problem it is. We certainly did not have the oversight from governmental agencies that we should have. That is the problem with prosperity no one questions why it is happening. No one questions whether it sustainable. No one questions whether it mortgaged our future· which it this case it has. Isn·t it is obvious that questioning was seriously needed. I believe Mark Twain said that the biggest threat to prosperity is prosperity.

I contend that it also occurred, to a large extent, because of a lack of education in simple economics and finance. Many said they didn·t understand what they were getting into and that proves my point that ignorance is anything but bliss.

My generation has been called the greatest and I believe it is because we had the best education and probably the highest motivation. We had a thirst for knowledge that was unparalleled. We had a desire for success unequaled. And, it wasn·t just to accumulate ·things· it was to accumulate knowledge and through it a secure future.

A return to that mentality is what is needed.

[Virgil Showlion]

sangria
Message #181 - 08/05/10 11:54 PM

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PoorandUgly
Message #182 - 08/06/10 02:23 PM

It consistently seems that the solution out there is spin and selfishness, not sacrifice and salvation.

It boils down to attitude and vicious cycles of what is taught or preached over time.

Case in point: WW2 generation = sacrifice and salvation; Baby Boomer + greater extent their children = spin and selfishness.

And you think it is some coincidence how we have gorged on debt to no end??

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PoorandUgly
Message #183 - 08/06/10 03:07 PM

You watch, whenever things turn sour again, it is all a function of how to spin it back up but not fundamentally solve out.

The public is getting fatigued (to say the least) in all this indebted deceit as a form of some sort of solution. Making a buck on some sort of short term trade on the back of calling for some sort of recovery is not an answer. It is doing the same thing over and over and over again expecting a different hopelessly wishful result.

And that is insanity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Aint that right Uncle Ben and Alan Greensnore?? I mean, all that really counts is getting the god dmn market up one more day, week, month, year etc. until when ...... What happens when a balloon blows up with too much hot air for too long a time? Nothing else matters but that balloon. All else including American citizens and their country be damned. All that counts is Government Sux get theirs, estimates being set at bar to be beaten and that's it. You come from an Ivy, hopefully you too can be in like flint with this cartel or the govt paid off by them. Nothing else counts for shit.

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Jnap
Message #184 - 08/06/10 09:17 PM



The market being up is a very good thing measured anyway you like. In my particular case it allowed me to spend a little money updating a kitchen. I wouldn·t have done it, at this time, if the market was still down. Besides, while the market may be up from its lows, it is still a long way from where it was. We are about still 4000 points from the high. The thing is people won·t spend their money if they don·t think we were recovering from the recession and we do have evidence that we are recovering. I know, I know, that unemployment is not recovering near as much or as fast as it should be but employment is a lagging indicator when coming out of a recession. The leading indicator is corporate earnings which have been very good. Employment, by-the-way has been up in the private sector every month for the last seven months including July.

The trouble is that it isn·t up enough to really get the economy moving like it should. But, given the depth of the recession it shouldn·t be a surprise.

There is a lot of finger and lip service being given to what should be done as opposed to what is being done. The single most common suggestion is that taxes should be lowered but if that worked why are we In a recession in the first place considering that taxes are lower than ever. In fact 50% of Americans pay no income tax at all. Additionally, the Federal Government is running deficits that are greatly caused by these very same cuts so; the positive effect of the cuts just hasn·t worked. The trickle down theory that is supposed to happen when the well to do have more money to spend doesn·t seem to be working, especially since the taxes on dividends, capital gains and other things have never been lower.

I have my own theory and it is that the tax cuts by themselves have reached the point of diminishing return. In fact I advocate raising taxes up to 50% for those earning more than a half million dollars as an incentive to invest their money in their companies instead of sticking it in their pocket. During the 1960·s taxes rate were as high as 91% and the economy was growing at an incredible rate. The tax act of 1964 lowered the top rate to 70%.and in 1969 the top rate was reduced to 50%. Today the rate is 36% and the rich continue to complain. If the Bush tax cuts expire, as they should, the top rate will only go up to 39.5% which is still low by historic standards. If you want to see the economy recover raise the rates and give credits for those in the upper brackets to invest in domestic industries. If you build it here you get a break if you don·t you won·t.

It is amazing what happens when tax incentives are enacted. The cash for clunkers spurred the auto industry, the housing rebate spurred the housing industry, and a manufacturing tax incentive would spur the manufacturing industry. This would re-domesticate some jobs which I think is the key to finally exiting this recession.

It is ironic that one of our political parties; I won·t tell you which one but the first letter is an ·R·, insists that the tax cuts must be extended but out of some other orifice also says that the deficits are way to high and must be reduced. How can they say both things at the same time and when asked what they would do to cut spending come up empty? Hell cut taxes, cut spending is their mantra but the fact is we are paying for the present with the future.

My solution: raise tax rates; promote education excellence, at all levels, using every means possible, use targeted tax incentives and get the ·R· party to become part of the solution instead of part of the problem. Unfortunately, I am not optimistic that any of these things will happen.

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neohguy
Message #185 - 08/06/10 09:35 PM

My solution: raise tax rates; promote education excellence, at all levels, using every means possible, use targeted tax incentives and get the ·R· party to become part of the solution instead of part of the problem. Unfortunately, I am not optimistic that any of these things will happen.

I think it is the only reasonable solution. Personally I think taxes should be raised for everybody with the exception of the lowest wage brackets. As you said, we can't keep kicking the can down the road to future generations. I absolutely agree with you concerning incentives to manufacturers to keep their shops in this country.

I'm optimistic that these things will happen but I think it will be a long time.

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PoorandUgly
Message #186 - 08/06/10 09:47 PM

Being happy about a nominal market index just simply being up over one day, week, month or even year(s) is not a real solution to what ails us. You are positing what is called by economists the "Nominal Wealth Effect". This is becoming disastrous because it not only applies to your stock market. What about that other industry called housing?

It has become a manic depressive disease where we unproductively "feel" happy one day and then sad the next and try to delude ourselves into the causes of such. It is pathetic and a joke! The fact is the markets are at this level in time because your free market capitalistic government marketeers in Uncle Ben and predecessor Alan Greensnore threw everything but the kitchen sink (at the taxpayer's and borrowers' expense btw) at this. We should have dealt with the lesser problem back around 2002 when last recession engendered not as severe nor pervasive deflationary threats. But we are all the more in debt and the nominal (not even real value) markets are overall down over last 10 years.

Moreover, yes, taxes are as low as they have been historically. There is an argument to be had about uncertainty of such things going forward for businesses in managing their decisions around this. But there is a much bigger elephant in the room that does not have any political color which is something much more disastrous and at all time historic proportions around the whole Western world and that is called DEBT!!!!! It is destroying and burying potential demand and productive investment going forward. Unfortunately, rightfully so, because debt must be destroyed, whether defaulted upon or paid down. That makes people LEARN so they are financially prudent the next time around with their financial or business decision making!!!

Uncle Ben and company do not believe in learning from failure or from a system where the funds and savings of the frugal investor go to the highest rate of return on capital productive members of society. He believes in keeping interest rates low, thereby punishing the savers and bailing out the borrowers thereby not allowing the funds of savers to go to natural highest bidders. This is a debt deflationary death threat perpetuated over the last 10 years all in the name of inflating out of our last problem. What happens upon the next problem, recession etc... Add more debt on so you feel good that your nominal Dow Jones is up some more? Home "owners" thought the same thing, prices should just go arbitrarily up forever too. So they felt good for a time, now what??? Like I said, that is no solution. That is madness. And it is myopically arrogant to think that just because you feel good today, that somehow it is overall good for the sake of your future. Drug addicts tend to feel that way too and look what happens to the ones hopelessly hooked on feeling good for today. I do not know if there is any amount of cold turkey to get us off this greedily reckless binge we have been on. And that sounds like checkmate to me.

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PoorandUgly
Message #187 - 08/06/10 10:05 PM

And remember what I said about the generations. WW2 generation knew of sacrifice and failure and real risk. Today, orchestrated by Uncle Ben, all we know of is gluttonous selfish arrogance feeding off of the pimpish nipple of debt. Everyone has to be a winner. God for bid there are losers, they unjustly and disgustingly get bailed out. At your and my expense!!!!!!!!!! People like us who follow and humbly abide by the rules. What chumps we are!!!!!!!! And they wonder why many have had enough. Well, how is this, just like for the fascists and the reckless, I too will take limitless risk but if I lose, I demand a bailout too. Deal?

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Davedon11488
Message #188 - 08/07/10 05:09 AM

job losses = more corporate profits = more hiring later ........................ and the cycle continues

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PoorandUgly
Message #189 - 08/07/10 01:25 PM

job losses = more corporate profits = more hiring later ........................ and the cycle continues

Yeah, more hiring later. Bulk of that more hiring in China, Singapore, Thailand ............

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PoorandUgly
Message #190 - 08/07/10 11:57 PM

We discuss solutions to what ails us but what about the suffering behind that ailing?

After being exposed to Chinese culture when I was recently there, I understand now all the more why Buddhism is so popular there too. It is not so much a religion to many (including me) as it is a state of mind and attitude in how to carry on with your life in general to its most peaceful and fullest.

You see, human life is a condition and function of suffering and almost insanely embracing it is a natural consequence of simply being human. It is how we deal with that suffering that counts. Does one deny it, get angry about it, acknowledge it, get revenge on it, or embrace it? Each person deals with it differently. You can argue that's what separates the champions from the non-ones, heroes from the nons etc.... I am so far from judging on any of that.

Moreover, who is to judge and say on how one deals with their suffering when destitute and reading these internet postings from a public library as internet nor computer can be afforded at home to look for jobs? Or who is to say how one should deal with his losses after losing his shirt and then some in the markets? Or how about the family with father and/or mother just looking to feed their kids and put roof over their heads but can't?

But regardless, I currently see a lot of hubris out there again right now not mindful of current and/or potentially future suffering. Hopefully instead of Buddha, maybe your salvation for that lack of consideration should be in the form of another Bailout for ya. God bless.

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PoorandUgly
Message #191 - 08/09/10 12:43 PM

When things don't turn the fascists or reckless way again, let us all sing the praises of another bailout again!!!!!!

Buy up those mortgages, buy up those treasuries Uncle Ben. Go go go!! Go speed racer, go go!! Hopefully, soon enough, regardless of how low mortgage rates go, all defaulting or broke Americans with no jobs or minimum wage jobs will be able to get into the house of their dreams again. Frugality, fear, and failure have no part in this "free capitalistic market". As long as stock market goes up, everything will be as George Carlin once said, "fine and dandy"

Have no fear, Uncle Ben is here!! He has your real estate and stock market back (til he doesn't anymore.......?) Then, let the lawsuits begin, lmao.

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PoorandUgly
Message #192 - 08/09/10 01:03 PM

Maybe not financially related but indirectly to what ails us: is it such as shock why America has around 66% of Americans overweight!!!?? One third of Americans are obese!!!!!!! When I was a very very young child, I loved fast food like the next child. I ate that stuff once or twice every week! Back then, I was oblivious to its harmful effects. I did not have a care in the world. Til one day, out of the blue, a family friend says "Hey Kiddo, you are getting pretty fat there."

Out of sheer ignorance, I did not realize how fat I really got. That woke me up and thanks to renewed DISCIPLINE among other aspects, I humbly devoted myself to turning it around. Moral of the story is just like more credit, the current solution is to let us feast in gluttonous, greedy, reckless fashion on more more more!!! Screw the consequences of tomorrow. It is all about today and making certain people "happy" and in denial. As that young child, I was "happy" and in denial too. Talk about "ignorance is bliss". Besides, I had no notion of the consequence that tomorrow brings.

Tomorrow, tomorrow, I love ya, tomorrow your only a day away.

[Virgil Showlion]

Goofy Goober
Message #193 - 08/09/10 02:26 PM

Okay, who was the filthy little culprit who put a trojan horse or antivirus on my computer???

Probably the feds... we do have a "nanny state" you know.. America land of the free has become America land of the modern day slaves..

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PoorandUgly
Message #194 - 08/09/10 02:34 PM

Who really knows, Goofy. Cannot rule anything out as I do not know for sure. But one thing I do know for sure is that the other day, I thought I curtailed the problem. But to my dismay, my computer really still got further messed up with that trojan or virus as more days went on. I had to go professional on this before my computer became potentially and permanently comprised. If Apple is trying to get more customers for its macs, it seems like it is succeeding b/c I am all the more considering it going forward. The PC Windows systems (I still use Windows XP) seem to be getting very less reliable and less customer friendly over time. P.S. - I already use Apple for its Iphone. I am just hesitant to switch for my PC because I use Word, Excel, Access, and Powerpoint for other documents.

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neohguy
Message #195 - 08/09/10 04:26 PM



seekingalpha.com/article/219462-tuesday-is-d-day-for-global-stock-markets?source=email

As poor economic news continued to pour in last week, punctuated by Friday·s dismal Non Farm Payrolls report, the chatter regarding ·QE2· or ·QE Lite,· some sort of additional quantitative easing by the Fed, rose to nearly hysterical levels by the close of business Friday.

We·ll talk in a moment about how terrible last week·s data really were, however, it·s important to look ahead to Tuesday·s FOMC meeting and why it·s ·D-Day· for U.S. and global markets. The rumblings from various Fed members, including Dr. Bernanke himself, seem obviously geared towards preparing the markets for some level of additional intervention by the Federal Reserve; it also seems obvious that the market has managed to avoid a severe downdraft by hoping and planning for that action to take place next week.....

....

Will it work is a tougher question and the answer holds the most important ramifications for the economy and markets going forward. Since the crisis started in late 2007 with the sub-prime meltdown, the Federal government has dumped more money into this rat hole than the combined total of major events like World War I, the New Deal, World War II, and the Korean, Vietnam and Iraqi wars.

And what have we gotten for our money? Unemployment has barely budged. The economy has mounted a weak recovery, at best, and now appears in danger of slowing down as the stimulus wears off, while the stock market, home market and commercial real estate market are nowhere near their old levels of health.

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PoorandUgly
Message #196 - 08/09/10 04:34 PM

Will it work is a tougher question and the answer holds the most important ramifications for the economy and markets going forward. Since the crisis started in late 2007 with the sub-prime meltdown, the Federal government has dumped more money into this rat hole than the combined total of major events like World War I, the New Deal, World War II, and the Korean, Vietnam and Iraqi wars.

And what have we gotten for our money? Unemployment has barely budged. The economy has mounted a weak recovery, at best, and now appears in danger of slowing down as the stimulus wears off, while the stock market, home market and commercial real estate market are nowhere near their old levels of health.

You said "Rat-hole". Huh ha huh ha huh ha huh (Trying to imitate Butthead's laugh from Beavis and Butthead. Sorry for being lame.)

Hilarious Neo. I don't know though, some may think its a bird's nest.

Like I said though, perception rules us all regardless of facts. For instance, can you argue or debate with Osama Bin Laden or others that September 11th was a bad day??? Extreme analogy but you get my drift.

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PoorandUgly
Message #197 - 08/09/10 04:43 PM

As poor economic news continued to pour in last week, punctuated by Friday·s dismal Non Farm Payrolls report, the chatter regarding ·QE2· or ·QE Lite,· some sort of additional quantitative easing by the Fed, rose to nearly hysterical levels by the close of business Friday.

Feed the beast!!!!!!!! Uncle Ben cooking up something nice for our delight!!??

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PoorandUgly
Message #198 - 08/09/10 04:45 PM

Uncle Ben needs to take a line out of this playbook and it is this: You know how one is on a stationary bicycle or treadmill and attempts to spin his/her wheels or run faster in place, well what happens then? Well for starters you get tired and fatigued and wear down, then you thin out!!!!!!!

This guy is like Popeye saying nothing will wear him down!! Go speed racer go go!!!!!! What a cartoon character.

LMAO.

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PoorandUgly
Message #199 - 08/09/10 04:49 PM

I wish Uncle Ben was my father. He believes in giving your child another credit card after he maxed out and defaulted on the last one.

Makes sense, doesn't it??

Now rally on!!!!!!!!

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PoorandUgly
Message #200 - 08/09/10 05:21 PM

I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property - until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.

Who said the above quote?? Hint: It was a former President of the United States. Point is seems like this scenario in that quote is playing out as planned. We put our time, money and energies on outside enemies in Afghanistan and Iraq yet there are more powerful enemies right here at home and American citizens are rotting here as a result. That seems like the Roman way if you ask me.

Now rally on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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PoorandUgly
Message #201 - 08/09/10 06:37 PM

Some want to know when the trigger of one scenario is to initiate this armageddon or whatever you want to label it. You have to keep in mind this is a credit-based economy with the dollar as the reserve currency which settles debts around the world. It is our reserve currency that settles debts around the world, not sterling, euros, gold, silver, food, etc.. You can run but you can only hide and deny it for so long.

I will clue you in on a possible trigger of cascading events for an "armageddon". It is similar to how it would unfold in August of 2007: Interest rate adjustment on debt. In this instance, aside from commercial re. adjustments, look east my friends, look east. For one scenario lies in our creditors over there. If China gets swamped and dug in with their wide spread coastal property bubble real estate (which is a big real bubble), they may reign in our lending in future treasury auctions as they have to deal with that problem over there.

I do not suspect this to happen yet but for when it does, that may be a start to rising interest rates. There will be no default, just limitless upward moves in rates eventually. But once that starts, it will starve the beast (borrowers, especially private good ones) in the West of capital when demanded. Credit will be priced higher and not given out freely anymore to all the fascists and reckless which is a good thing. Right now demand for credit and loans is low but if and when demand returns, many poor souls will be left without a chair. That is not inflationary. In fact, that causes a varied new cycle of deprivation of capital and funds which is deflationary to grow incomes and assets owned! More people of the masses will be starved of funds. If people cannot afford to borrow now, they surely cannot afford to borrow once increasing interest rates come about. If the price of money itself goes sky high, that is deflationary. Unfortunately, that may be what is needed however painful it is. At least, savers finally will be rewarded for their frugality and lend enticing to the highest return on capital bidders.

But this will not be a hyper inflationary depression since the pure currency (M1) will not be made available to all. Aside from unemployment benefits and other meager cash subsistence, is cash being thrown around? No, but credit is. But if more reserve dollars of debt are destroyed eventually going forward thanks to higher rates, the remaining dollars of debt become more valuable. In fact, via rise in rates, more bad debt will be destroyed which is a natural consequence of past binges on debt. Deflation in capital, earnings and assets owned are happening right now while the inflation lies in the necessities and drivers around it such as taxes, tolls, etc... Of course all of this does not negate the scenario in time where it gets so bad that actual cash is thrown about like in Weimar Germany to suddenly absolve all debt obligations. That could always occur but it will probably be a very fast inflection point where you would not even know what hit you upside the head if that were to occur and no amount of gold, food etc.. will preserve your way of life in that instance. Maybe war???

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PoorandUgly
Message #202 - 08/09/10 06:46 PM

You see, right now, the US government is more sinister that even I thought. They are borrowing as much money as they humanly can now relative to what is going on in the world. Thanks to its credit rating and notion of stability, rates are low and foreigners continue to hide out in Treasuries by lending to them. The govt is taking advantage of this and wants to borrow as much as humanly possible right now while rates are kept low. They want but they need the money too for obvious and various reasons.

But, in the future, when anyone and everyone wants money again (to borrow), if they should do so, it will be at punishing rates. The govt won't borrow then as much as it is less attractive. But by then, what economists call the "Crowding out effect" will have begun. Good private sector borrowers will be competing at higher rates while the gluttonous fascist govt and private sector elites will be sitting on low interest rate financed loans.

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PoorandUgly
Message #203 - 08/09/10 08:36 PM

If for instance we take the outcome of the hyper inflationary depression scenario, while gold would be one solution in terms of preservation of wealth, there are things to keep in mind. First, anything controlled by governments, just like the kings and queens before them centuries ago will manipulate that "currency" too. I said in an earlier post and I will say it again, gold established the first fractional reserve banking system in the 1600's back in Europe. The first bankers were goldsmiths and they helped seep out the purities of the gold deposited with them from the public. How do you think official gold coins came about? The process is called seignorage. To believe that any currency even of physical kind is free of manipulation and control is misleading. Point I am getting at is not everything is considered so black and white and research goes a long way towards opening up your mind. But again, I believe no matter how hard we try, however long we delay (been delaying now since at least 2002 after tech bust), severe deflation before any hyperinflation comes is our destiny. The facts speak for themselves. $60 trillion+ in dollar denominated debt. If you want to go by the BIS and derivatives markets it is exponentially higher. Instead of it being in God we trust, it should In Debt we trust. If we are in a debt destruction mode whereby over time it occurs over 3-5 more years based on my estimates, then the immediate solution for this deflationary depression is cash. Cash is king. Stay liquid and mobile. Being able to migrate (maybe even out of the US into Canada or elsewhere) is very important. You want to be flexible in terms of opportunity and survival. Ask people who are underwater in their homes who cannot move about desiring mobility. Many are stuck. For many, the only choice will be to walk away to go for the job far away or in a lower cost of living locale.

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neohguy
Message #204 - 08/09/10 10:15 PM

Hilarious Neo. I don't know though, some may think its a bird's nest.

I also find it comical, although sad, too. I get the impression that our economic well being is being measured by the closing price of the dow instead of the dow reflecting the economic well being of the country.

[Virgil Showlion]

PoorandUgly
Message #205 - 08/10/10 12:00 PM

I get the impression that our economic well being is being measured by the closing price of the dow instead of the dow reflecting the economic well being of the country.

Like some drugs, it's about how high you can get now. Forget about tomorrow. The buzz is on.

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PoorandUgly
Message #206 - 08/10/10 02:24 PM

Ahh, forget the drugs, what about the "green shoots" as some sort of solution?? Maybe if we can call it something else the next time around, we can have some more green days, months etc.. in the market. Just like an addict or out of control gambler, it seems like we got to get one more hit regardless of the cost.

After all, Las Vegas still has 73% (you heard me right) of "homeowners" underwater. Should we give the gamblers another bailout??

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txbizownr
Message #207 - 08/10/10 02:49 PM

Should we give the gamblers another bailout??

do they belong to a union??



tx

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PoorandUgly
Message #208 - 08/10/10 03:23 PM

do they belong to a union??

For all I care, they can be a member of the priesthood. If they took a risk and lost, it's on their dime. Not yours and mine.

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PoorandUgly
Message #209 - 08/10/10 04:15 PM

A political partial solution to our overall national decline lies in the words and semantics dominating the public like cattle. For instance, it is high time, if PEOPLE, want to be represented again, to NOT use the word "special interests" anymore when dealing with their "elected" officials.

Using such generic words like this is playing into the ruling elites and fascists' hands. Regardless of what party you are, use the actual name of the entity in your communication and do not let yourself nor your elected official refer to the parties blindly by the term "special interest". Call them out specifically on your facts, figures, evidence etc........ Put this due diligence pressure on. Hence, for example, when talking to your elected official you should more likely ask "I noticed JP Morgan and the Texas teachers union have donated X amount of dollars to your campaign? You support this money?" or What are you going to do about Goverment Sux raiding the General Fund to support their market operation in New York?" or "Do you think oil companies such as BP should give you X amount of dollars to your campaign?"

NOT "Why do you let special interests contribute to your campaign"? or "What are you going to do about special interest groups raiding the General Fund?" or "Do you think special interest groups should give you money for your campaign"?

Point is call them ALL out on SPECIFIC guilty parties and relate that to their facts. This way none of these ex-lawyers can escape in the wording of the language as easily and will be held to account. They won't get bailed out as easily simply with the contrived answer: "Yes, I am against special interests in politics." This is just a sample or start. But it is something to consider when relating to your "representatives". They are sinisterly smart and will use that knowledge as power against you. That is what they teach in Haaaaarvarrrrrrrd Law School.

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PoorandUgly
Message #210 - 08/10/10 05:31 PM

But for economic, political or any other reason, please folks, let us not think a primary solution to what ails us is in the form of violence. All ideas are welcome but please refrain from violent means. Historic reference to terms of "revolution" etc.. are valid in terms of social, historical context for those purposes, however, direct advocacy of some sort of physically violent movement is not an answer as choice on behalf of the American peoples' volition.

So all ideas for possible solutions are welcome. Just please try to keep it civil and productive. Deal?

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PoorandUgly
Message #211 - 08/10/10 06:04 PM

And please keep this in mind too: No matter what happens going forward with the economy in time over the days, months, and years to come, you are "richer" than you probably think right now. For if you and your family have your health and are simply alive, count your blessings! I mean, it was just yesterday some Senator's life was over in an instant from a plane crash. Wham!!!!! Just like that it happens which is unbelievably tragic and sad for the family. I can not begin to fathom that nor will I ever want to.

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PoorandUgly
Message #212 - 08/11/10 12:50 PM

So sinister: By attributing to causes of a declining economy, the fascist pigs and their government are getting bailed out and robbing everyone blind again and again and again. The Fed continues to allow 0% short term money at their windows to be loaned to the Government Sux, JP Morgan fascists of the world, turn right around and buy the additional Treasury bond issues of 10,30 year treasuries at 2.7%+ and 3.9%+ respectively continuing the risk-free profit ride for themselves. Risk-free profit here, why give risky loans to the public?

Besides, they know they need to do this for themselves to continue to build up profits against more losses in the future, whether from commercial real estate loan losses or other debt destruction losses in the future etc..... In this "solution" of theirs, everyone in their circle continues to win, b/c the Treasury is being aided and abetted in rolling over existing higher-interest debt and borrowing more and more at renewed, depressed low interest rates to finance everything since tax revenues cannot be depended upon to service anything anymore, the fascist pigs on Wall Street are continuing to get more and more risk-free profits, and the Fed continues to play the hero in all this blaming the economy for the low interest rates. It is called a charade people. As I continue to expect, if anything, when the declines as shown up in stock market get bad enough if and when again, it will be a smoke screen. For then and only then, will the Fed actually come in AGAIN AS THE HERO with a QE 2 which of course will be all the more destructive to US like fanning the flames of a wild fire in the forest. Maybe instead of the cover of Time in 2009, now Uncle Ben will show up on the cover of Playboy?

Great ponzi scheme if you can get in on this! This a genius win-win that would make Russian chess masters drool. Unfortunately, this smells of what severe strife and turmoil etc. are made of if the overall public gets wiser and wiser to this, just like in past debacles of subprime loans, Enron scandal etc.... You really think that the Fed gives one rat's behind behind their "dual mandate" of stable prices and employment/growth.? Yeah, and I got a bridge to sell ya. Since its existence, the Fed ihas clearly failed on both fronts: Unstable prices and wildly fluctuating employment and growth. This economic function is a cover for them!! This is not conspiratorial. Their primary function is to enrich themselves and associated private cronies, not the American People! The humbly righteous, jobless, hardworking law abiding public and the savers will continue to be the real victims in all this unless something is done about it.

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PoorandUgly
Message #213 - 08/11/10 07:15 PM

Notice still that there is no real commitment let alone discussion on driving new industry, hence jobs here in America. Just more paper pushing by the fascist elite. Paper pushing thievery is what got us into this mess over time. And trying to apply more of that will just fan the flames of more debacles for future generations let alone current ones. Doing the same thing over and over and over again expecting a different result is a definition of INSANITY!!! When will the arrogant become humble? When will the reckless learn to become frugal? When will the deceitful learn to stop lying?? Wishful thinking, and so the beat goes on ......

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PoorandUgly
Message #214 - 08/11/10 07:25 PM

In reference to arrogance and denial, here is an example: Nationally, home sellers are still on fantasy island thinking that a mere 5% -10% reduction in listing of their current prices of their homes to attract buyers will be sufficient. Are they still so arrogant and in denial on the fact that the E in the P/E of real estate (generally nationwide) is still dropping and for many potential buyers, lack thereof for stable incomes is difficult to support any price period right now??? It is kind of hard to support a mortgage when there are little jobs out there, let alone stable livable wage ones.

I guess that dual earning couple of which one is on Burger King income and the other is on Wendy's income may be ample to take on a 30 year obligatory mortgage for a "low" 200K home. Well, just in case it doesn't work out in a year or so after the loss of one of those jobs, maybe the government will step in via another tax subsidy and/or bailout. Makes sense to me!!!!!!!! Now rally on!!!!!!!!!

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PoorandUgly
Message #215 - 08/11/10 08:29 PM

The westernized world thinks that the solution to a solvency crisis is with a liquidity one. How pathetic. At best, that only delays, if not exacerbates the inevitable problem of too much debt and too little income to service just what we currently have, let alone more of it!!!!!!!!! Even Europe took this play out of our own playbook back in May 2010. They solved nothing. Only denied and put it off again for a later time. Debt is like a swarm of Terminators. You can run but you cannot hide from them. They will not stop and they will keep coming back. They need to be destroyed, not duplicated or multiplied some more!! There is still much debt that needs to be destroyed over the coming years. When is Judgment Day ever recognized? But no, Uncle Ben, like his predecessor, believe in pouring more gasoline on the fire by inflating out. Interesting, that is probably a wonderful way to get the flames of financial hell nice and hot where it can no longer be controlled anymore. Some like it hot ...........

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Better1
Message #216 - 08/11/10 09:10 PM

What is the solution to our Greater Depression?

Surely not HEALTHCARE REFORM ... the Obama administration should've been more

focused on 'recovery' issues rather than waste gov't time & money on their 'EGOS'.

[Virgil Showlion]

PoorandUgly
Message #217 - 08/11/10 09:26 PM

I concur Better1. This administration like others before it try to do things just to put it on their resume for political marketing gamesmanship at a later time. That "reform" is not only hollow but just made matters worse, not better. For instance, with peoples' jobs, livelihoods and incomes lost as there are a paucity of jobs left to be found, certainly and unconstitutionally mandating that a poor b.a.s.t.a.r.d American buy into some sort of fascist health insurance from the private sector should not add to our list of problems which we should be concerned with at this juncture. We need solution solvers and not more problem makers right now.

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Better1
Message #218 - 08/12/10 12:31 AM

[moneycentral.msn.com/community/message/profile.asp?ForumID=18&UserID=6905263] PoorandUgly: AMEN!!! REMEMBER NOVEMBER! & 'PRAY' FOR BETTER!

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PoorandUgly
Message #219 - 08/12/10 12:48 PM

Unfortunately, I have little hope that this election, like the one in 2008, would really help with our structural problems. In fact, I expect things to get worse from here regardless of who is in power. Both sides are bought and paid for anyway.

For instance, as it pertains to the economy, many think it is just the government and public sector that is only indebted when in fact the private sector is also more indebted now than even in 2008 after the bailout mania exploded!!!!!! As common_sense reiterated from my source (see "non-financial cash ......is a lie" thread), the $7.2 trillion (with a T folks) cash is really money owed or debt that needs to be paid back. If there are no sales going forward because the idiots cannabilized and cut themselves to the bones with layoffs, what happens when future debt bills come due??? They should have taken a page out of Henry Ford who once said if he lays off his workforce then who is left to buy his cars???

Moreover, leveraged loans on behalf of companies will hit a peak in coming due around 2013/2014. Let us not forget commercial real estate loans in the amount of roughly $300 - $800 billion coming due between now and 2014. What happens if rents are not sufficient to cover those debt payments? When does debt ever get paid down??? Oh yeah, it doesn't. It gets bailed out by the bought and paid for fascist government with our taxpayer funds. The sad thing is taxes and taxpayers are dwindling in numbers very fast as jobs are few and in between. Even existing jobs are cutting salaries and putting in furloughs in some areas. Both sides in politics have aided and abetted to this culmination for, one can argue, over the last 20-30 years if you consider how so much industry and jobs overtime were stripped away to shores overseas etc..

I recall in the science fiction Star Wars flick "Return of the Jedi" (yes I like Star Wars, not ultra ultra fan though) when Luke Skywalker sees the old decrepit Emperor and underestimates him b/c of his appearance. But then bam!!!!!!! That old Emperor dude jolts out those blue lightening bolts torturing Luke and having him wry in pain on the floor like a little baby. As that is happening, the Emperor says "Poor fool, only in the end do you now understand" That is the state I feel we are in. After so long a time of taking things for granted and underestimating our future problems (which are now here!!!!), do we now humbly understand??? For some, I don't know still. Pathetic.

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PoorandUgly
Message #220 - 08/12/10 02:50 PM

The source below illustrates another piece of evidence why it is foolish to expect "credit" to return in mass anytime soon to our "free-lunch" economy. Would you give out more loans to these people again anytime soon? If you were in the borrower's shoes, would you be so foolish to not learn that lesson now and not borrow from a lender again like that going forward??? Uncle Ben apparently doesn't think so and believes more "credit" is the answer to all our problems.

finance.yahoo.com/news/Debts-Rise-and-Go-Unpaid-as-nytimes-1192042479.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=4&asset=&ccode=

Fact is I have no sympathy whatsoever for any of the parties in that article. As you can see, they represent either reckless borrowers and/or foolish fascist lenders. Both need to learn FAILURE and fight amongst themselves for all I care. Just don't come to John Q. Taxpayer sapping up our money in trying to settle your feuds. Our country shouldn't financially go into more debt to bail borrowers nor lenders out just because you were not more careful or smart in your business decision making skills.

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Funny2007
Message #221 - 08/12/10 03:58 PM



Those who complain about higher taxes should realize that, by keeping short term safe investment rates at or near 0%, the Fed is, in effect taxing savers--i.e.: middle class retirees-- at 100%. Isn't it true that, assuming 4 to 5% rates on such instruments, and a 50% tax, savers would still earn 2 to 2.5% vs. 0%?



That "tax" imposed by the Fed is to help banks hide their enormous losses on real estate loans they are not marking to market, hoping that in the long run, by borrowing money at 0%, and then investing in treasuries at 3% or so, will give them enough profits and reserves to offset those losses, and rebuild their balance sheets.



In addition, in buying treasuries, the Fed helps support their prices, and even inflate them, thus help these financial institution generate trading profits.



In other words, as tax payers, and savers, we are still helping the banks rebuild their balance sheets, and shore up their equity. We are thus playing the role of the financial system common stock holders, and in this case we should be compensated through ownership of the bank equity.



At the very least, and as long as rates are kept at 0%, the banks should regularly issue, to the US Treasury, a certain number of shares--i.e: a multiple of bonuses received by CEOs, traders, etc. That would be fair compensation for the US tax payer, and the saver.



That would not be a tax the rich scheme, simply a market solution to an ongoing problem. Negotiations would be easy: do you want 0% interest, and some dilution, or 6%? That the way the markets work, isn't it?



Of course, the financial institutions could find a loophole: paying no bonuses to their CEOs, traders etc., since a multiple of 0 is 0. In that case, their balance sheets will improve at a quicker pace benefiting investors in bank shares.



We would certainly hear from CNBC that all the financial talent will move to other jobs, but considering past history, that may be a blessing, and watching which economy they'll wreck next would be extremely fascinating.

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Funny2007
Message #222 - 08/12/10 04:21 PM



Something amusing happens every time some investment professional appears on CNBC and recommends the purchase of stocks that pay a good dividend: a blonde or brunette diva appears and raises a fundamental issue: "But how good are great dividends when they are taxed at higher income tax rate?"



"OMG. . ." I hear scream in the board rooms across America, let's take care of that pressing 5% increase in taxes immediately: let's cut dividends to $0, and everyone's compensation right below the marginal tax threshold of $250,000. That will save all CEOs several billions in taxes."



Even better, let put all the tax burden on the suckers who now make $50,000/year, by raising their income to $500,000. Since they are more of them, they'll pay a lot more in taxes, and the rich a lot less."



Thank you CNBC for your pretty faces and amusing comments: they bring a ray of sunshine on these otherwise rainy days.



P.S.: By the way, did Maria "Money Honey," pulled the truck and load up on C at $35? That's what she said when it traded around $37-$38. I am sure you have an archive of that comedy of error video.

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Funny2007
Message #223 - 08/12/10 04:48 PM



I am posting in the hope that may be Jon Stewart, Steven Colbert--sorry Steve I did not mean to put you in second place, it's just that your program cones later--, or SNL, give me a chance to write skits. I already have a title: "CNBS: When it hits the fan, we know how to spin it."

We would need 4 characters:

Mark the skeptic;

2 Divas--one blonde, one brunette--to raise income tax issues, and for their timeliness in backing the truck.

and

Goldie Locks Larry, for whom "all is not well", "but all is best in the best of all possible world". . . as long as you cut taxes.

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PoorandUgly
Message #224 - 08/12/10 07:01 PM

That "tax" imposed by the Fed is to help banks hide their enormous losses on real estate loans they are not marking to market,

That market to market accounting should NEVER have been suspended back in 2008/2009. In good times, the fascists had no problems with the mortgage backed securities and other assets be marked forever up on their books. But when things hit the fan, they threw transparency out the door and did not want to reflect market prices on the way down. The fascist gutless FASB caved in to pressures from Congress to suspend the rules. So much for transparency. I guess they know how to have their cake and eat it too. And in the corporate boardrooms, it is cut or layoff workers now and ask how they beat earnings estimates later.

Thank you CNBC for your pretty faces and amusing comments: they bring a ray of sunshine on these otherwise rainy days.

By the way, did Maria "Money Honey," pulled the truck and load up on C at $35? That's what she said when it traded around $37-$38. I am sure you have an archive of that comedy of error video.

Is that what Maria "Money Honey" said about Citigroup then? I wasn't listening as I was just looking at her face. Btw, the channel should not be addressed as CNBC. It's real name on here is called Bubblevision.

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neohguy
Message #225 - 08/12/10 07:45 PM



Not the type of story that you would typically see in the WSJ

www.marketwatch.com/story/reagan-insider-gop-destroyed-us-economy-2010-08-10?pagenumber=1

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Old and gray
Message #226 - 08/12/10 09:11 PM



neohguy . . . others;



The above link refers back to an article by David Stockman, former Director of the OMB during Reagan's administration, published in the NYTimes about the beginning of August. You might find the Stockman article of more interest than the review. You get the clear water with no flavoring. As might be expected from someone who held such a position, he incorporates numbers and historical sequences to make his points.

Stockman is a Republican; but, if you are one of today's Republicans, I'll tell you straight off, you won't like this article.

Entitled Four Deformations of the Apocalypse, he cites four specific events which contributed to changed perceptions and policy directions and helped cultivate the field for the recent downslide. You might find nothing new in the article if you read through the tsunami thread. Except, he unflinchingly assigned direct responsibility for three of the four changes to the Republican party, and accuses them of callous and reckless behavior and assigns direct responsibility to Republicans for the coming "Apocalypse" if they do not change their attitude.

That's from a career Republican.

It does bear strongly on the original purpose of this thread.

Here's the link to the Stockman article.



www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/opinion/01stockman.html?_r=1&sq=David%20Stockman&st=cse&scp=1&pagewanted=print

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PoorandUgly
Message #227 - 08/12/10 09:52 PM

There is another dimension to all this, that as many posters on here, including myself have not really emphasized.

In general, among those noted factors which were not really noted by myself or by other posters as to causation of this whole debacle or gradual decline (depending on viewpoint), we left out or forgot the build up over time of massive corporate and political corruption that is largely left unpunished.

Take in the financial world a year or so ago Bernie Madoff. While it was great that he got sentenced to life, does anyone honestly believe he was the only "cockerroach" out there?? In the financial world, there is a nest out there laughing their behinds off as we speak because one old guy took the fall. Even Madoffs' sons and family, for instance, made the deal with their father for him to take the fall while they absconded in the end with the billions for their own inheritance and benefit. They don't fool me for one second. But apparently they did a number on the public. If I were anyone, I would hound the children everyday until they relinquish that blood money back.Even the republicans and democrats are vile in their corruption yet run for reelection as if they are not guilty of squat. It is beyond repulsive.

Point is how long does it take to round up ALL the guilty actors in this play and bring a sense of semblance of financial and political order back to this country?? Because both sides and the fascist outfits that back them are those same actors in this game, the answer unfortunately becomes more evident while the question becomes more ridiculously rhetorical. Hence, we need a whole new team of financial and political Wyatt Earps and Elliot Ness's now more than ever. Congressional testimonies and whistleblowers after the barn door as already been swung wide open is not sufficient let alone a dog and pony show for the masses. They have been doing this charade way too often now as some sort of real solution for years starting say with Enron fiasco back in 2001/2002.

However, Politicians and others are right somewhat on at least one count. Many new regulations and laws is not an elixir for what ails us. BUT ENFORCEMENT AND HARSH PUNISHMENT for existing ones maybe a partial one. There are no guts, no heroes, or others not tied in some way to the gravy train to do the right thing. When we say in context the "right thing", it sounds lame and corny doesn't it. Well, that lameness and corniness as acceptance of this status quo is destroying us. I mean, where are all the arrests, indictments, convictions and harsh prison sentences?? No, what we get are bad actors like former Treasury Hanky Paulson trying to promote and sell this book on how he was such a hero back in 2008 with passage of the disgraceful, disgusting shakedown and massive transfer of wealth from plebians to fascists in Bailout Mania alson known as TARP. And then we have Turbo Tax Timothy who evades taxes from the IRS, a division of the Treasury but becomes our new Treasury Secretary of the IRS, let alone the whole unit called the Treasury.

What's wrong with this picture?

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PoorandUgly
Message #228 - 08/12/10 10:28 PM

It is a sign of the times when you have people out there who have and continue to commit suicide due to the paucity of jobs and troubles of survival that come with it. Yes, these people do not show up on the 24/7 news cycle as they are not headlines like BP, Markets down 200+ points etc.. Okay, they are individuals that more than likely have no significance on the world. Fine, but in this time of that kind of economic reality and suffering, there is a new show on television this fall called "Outsourced" How entertaining and funny that must be to those families of their lost family members because of the outsourcing problem!!!!!! I guess if there were widespread television in the 1930's, we would have a show called "Soup Line Delight". Talk about far removed from reality.

What's wrong with this picture??

[Virgil Showlion]

Life was good
Message #229 - 08/12/10 11:09 PM

There are no guts, no heroes, or others not tied in some way to the gravy train to do the right thing.

The Stockton article is a good read for those that didn't live through the 70's and 80's. After the successful peaceful end of the cold war, we in this country had a golden opportunity to focus on fiscal responsibility. Instead, we squandered it all away by voting in pretty boy shysters and incompetent fools. We have not had a real leader in this country in decades and both political parties have forgotten we have a constitution.



My recommendation to vote out all incumbents for the next three elections to purge the system of corrupt incompetence usually meets with ridicule



For those that have concerns of turning the political establishment upside down as being a disaster, I counter with no more of a disaster as we have now and will have in another couple months.



We need real men of courage and a conviction to uphold and defend the constitution, right now.

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neohguy
Message #230 - 08/13/10 11:10 AM

Here's the link to the Stockman article.



www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/opinion/01stockman.html?_r=1&sq=David%20Stockman&st=cse&scp=1&pagewanted=print

Thanks Old and gray.

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PoorandUgly
Message #231 - 08/13/10 01:08 PM

I am cognizant of that article. Tied in with my most recent posts and that, lets go back to the corruption issue for a second. Does anyone know what politicians have to do with a broke government?? It is called EMBEZZLEMENT.

In a corporation, if any executives or rank employee steals from petty cash and never pays it back but just leaves IOU's, eventually they should get fired, let alone arrested for theft right??

The aforementioned has been going on in US government for decades with impunity!!!!!!!! But somehow back decades ago, there was a silent agreement between all political parties involved whereby various funds in different programs were allowed to have kid-like politicians stick their hands in a bunch of "cookie jars" and raid those funds that were supposed to be what is called RESTRICTED CASH but used for their own local useless piggish purposes instead, probably least of which is to pay back their own financial campaign donors from elections before.

For the savvy on here who lived way through that turn of events back then, how the heck was that silent agreement allowed to occur and then unfold to where we are now, not withstanding all our other problems we currently now face?? The 64 billion dollar question is: Why do we continue to accept this as status quo when the US is now raped beyond recognition now and insolvent thanks in part to that?? When someone is paddled up the behind or raped, do they ask again, "Thank you sir may I have another?"

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Falling Sky - Not
Message #232 - 08/13/10 01:40 PM



I suspect the Stockton article is nothing more than an attempt to publicize a book of his. While certain elements of the article are true it has been twisted to support the New York Times Political Agenda. The Republicans are guilty but the Democrats are certainly no better and in fact may be worse. Neither seems to be interested in anything other than their own power grabs.

The answer? - While I would hate to see it happen - The only thing that will help America at this point is a Revolution - An uprising by Americans to destroy the current Political Regimes. Any thing else is like putting glasses on a giant " B" movie Blob. It may look a little different but it's still the giant Blob and nothing is going to stop it from it's destructive ways unless you completely destroy it.

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PoorandUgly
Message #233 - 08/13/10 01:50 PM

Funneling cheap money into the system worked at one time - at the height of the crisis when bank balance sheets were constrained. As a result, the country's largest banks - Bank of America , JPMorgan Chase , Citigroup , Wells Fargo , Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley - moved quickly from beat-up bailout cases to solid franchises with booming profits.

Now, the specter of deflation is threatening banks' hedging strategies and stands to hurt consumers as well. The solutions for today's problems may be more difficult to structure than earlier quantitative easing plans, and will be harder to swallow politically.

"There are some long-term inefficiencies in the U.S. economy that are not going to get solved with 0% interest rates," says Michael Bechara, managing director of Granite Consulting Group, who consults with banks on risk management and financial issues. "The only way to get rid of this debt is to pay it off or to default on it."

I think the above sums it up. Except I wouldn't be so euphemistic to label our problems as simply some sort of "long-term inefficiences". That is putting it very very very mildy don't ya think???

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PoorandUgly
Message #234 - 08/13/10 02:00 PM

Falling Sky,

Speaking for myself, I do not condone violence. However, the more I continue over the months and years to wrap my head around what ails us, the more I come to the conclusion that what we are facing is probably, although not definately a no-win situation (economically, politically etc....).

If and when the public gets desperate and hopeless enough, that very well may be a solution as history has shown in the past. One thing is certain: there is a lot of blame to go around towards the current and past crop of political and corporate fascists who brought us to this point. I hold them to account. But I am truly objective. You will note from throughout this thread that I also hold to account a fair segment of the public who were themselves reckless, greedy, selfish, myopic fools just as well. Like I said, plenty of blame to go around. What a shame.

It is pretty pathetic and a shame. If many just simply had decent morals and followed some basic principles that pretty much most religions of faith, let alone a good mother preaches, maybe this fiasco would not have gotten here. Like I said, I guess it is a generational thang though too. Humans tend never to truly learn from their past mistakes and are doomed to repeat them given enough time. I guess every several generations or so, cycles repeat. Tragic and pathetic.

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Life was good
Message #235 - 08/13/10 02:17 PM

We could start by voting out all incumbents this Nov. think of the shakeup in both political parties that would cause. After both parties knew the people were serious, the people could then start holding politicians accountable. Then vote all incumbents out again for another two elections. That would purge every active politician from office. New Blood, new thinking.

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PoorandUgly
Message #236 - 08/13/10 02:24 PM

The foolish fascist fed is getting more sinister yet desperate in its ways. They plan on using something (like before), but they need a stronger consensus for the monetary policy to take effect now. Do you know what it is? It is a bird, it is a plane, it is a smoke screen called a declining or crashing stock market!!!! That is their EXCUSE OR ALIBI. Many will come begging for the Fed to do this "QE 2" by then. They will come in AGAIN as a hero, rally things and Uncle Ben will then be on the cover of Playboy thereafter instead of Time magazine.

When they said there are 2 certain things in this life: Death and Taxes, they should have added a third: Fascist Theft. Btw, I find it puzzling and troubling that many of these mbs securites by definition, if toxic, are even being "repaid" now let alone going forward. I think the Fed is playing a big con game with debits and credits of existing toxic portfolio on its books now. These proceeds from those "repayments" of mortgage backed securities are probably coming out of thin air, not real repayments from the public. And now those fake proceeds manufactured by the Fed will go to purchase a great many new treasuries in its future QE 2 if and when enacted. Ponzi would be so proud.

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neohguy
Message #237 - 08/13/10 03:12 PM

The aforementioned has been going on in US government for decades with impunity!!!!!!!! But somehow back decades ago, there was a silent agreement between all political parties involved whereby various funds in different programs were allowed to have kid-like politicians stick their hands in a bunch of "cookie jars" and raid those funds that were supposed to be what is called RESTRICTED CASH but used for their own local useless piggish purposes instead, probably least of which is to pay back their own financial campaign donors from elections before.

Poor, the problem is that the electorate knew it but kept electing them as long as it seemed that they were benefitting from the misuse of funds.

I remember reading about SS becoming insolvent back in the 60's if we continued misusing that fund. Did we do anything about it? Hell no. We elected politicians that said we deserve that money so that we can support a multi decade vacation on a southern beach. Good luck with this electorate choosing somebody that proposed returning SS to its original intention of supplying relief to folks that are too old to work due to type of job, genetics, or luck.

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PoorandUgly
Message #238 - 08/13/10 04:03 PM

We elected politicians that said we deserve that money so that we can support a multi decade vacation on a southern beach. Good luck with this electorate choosing somebody that proposed returning SS to its original intention of supplying relief to folks that are too old to work due to type of job, genetics, or luck.

Don't worry. I have little hope with the electorate or the elected officials who are supposed to represent them. I concur the electorate don't know any better. All the electorate know is how to vote in someone who sweet talks them with infomercial promises, sound bytes, and a good appearance to go with that bill of goods telling them that you too can be rich and famous like us someday.

The Ivy elite and corporate fascists who become politicians pretend to represent the people but could care less at the end of the day if the plebians rot in destitution. When they bilked these funds that were yours to begin with but now blame others for nothing left in their coffers and have to make cuts now as if they are heroes, you know something is wrong with this picture. I concur the electorate don't know any better. All the electorate know is how to vote in someone who sweet talks them with infomercial promises, sound bytes, and a good appearance to go with that bill of goods telling them that you too can be rich and famous like us someday.

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PoorandUgly
Message #239 - 08/13/10 04:31 PM

Deny enough once hardworking Americans SAFETY BASIC SURVIVAL NETS OF PITTANCE and human beings tend to do desperate things during desperate times. Peaceful for now. Good.

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38684935/ns/local_news-new_york_ny/

Rally officials also claimed that many of their older members are beginning to consider suicide as a viable alternative.

Even the rally officials did not get the memo on some families already out there who HAVE HAD a family member commit suicide already! But all is well as there is a new show this fall on television called "OUTSOURCED". HA HA HA, so freakin funny and amusing!! Maybe some politicians and fascists will get a kick out this new show. I wonder if those American families who lost their loved ones because of our endemic labor and jobless problems will be laughing too come this show in the fall???

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Old and gray
Message #240 - 08/13/10 09:44 PM



Want a solution to stem the arrogant behavior of office holders?

Their current oath of office makes no demand they observe the laws of the land. They swear to uphold the Constitution of the United States. Fine, they should; but, they should also observe, obey and be subject to the laws of the land. They do not and are not so restricted. They should be. On first abrogation, there should be a mechanism to allow their constituents to move to have them removed from office, and, if the offense is strong enough, have them prosecuted for misfeasance, malfeasance, fraud, treason or whatever. . a recourse now denied to voters or citizens. What they do in office is exempt from any and all retaliation, no matter how serious or disrespectful it is to the law of the land and/or its citizens.



Number two, have candidates sign a document that states all campaign promises, which we all now casually accept as lies never expected to be honored, will be honored while the candidate serves in office. It should be accompanied with the proviso that should the candidate, on taking office, not live up to his/her promises, he/she would be drummed out of Congress. . the same as an officer in the military service was once forced to stand before an assembly and go through the ignominy of having the stripes ripped off his military dress, sword broken in two, drummed out of service and then ignored. Once an office holder has been subjected to the most degrading rejection ceremony, he/she should never thereafter, be allowed to hold another office, even deprived of his/her right to vote in order to demonstrate how despicable, distrustful and of little worth society regards him/her.



Our current national reaction to political deceit and malfeasance is to reward the miscreant by voting him back into office so he can do it to us again. We should recognize that before we throw all the blame on the candidate, if he/she commits some deceptive act and is voted back in again, that's only assurance that what he/she does is acceptable. A Congressional office holder has a better chance of being drummed out of Congress if he violates some provision of the 450 page book of Congressional rules than if he breaks an enforceable law of the land.

We either don't know how to evaluate what the office holder is doing to us at the time, or, we reason that we'd do the same thing if we were in office so what's the difference. . . .

So, until we change the basic oath of office, bind him legally to deliver what he/she promises, and so long as we continue to protect him/her from all harm or liability while he/she serves, the rest is all lip service. We can't even ticket him/her for speeding through the neighborhood endangering children as long as he/she was on the way to a legislative session.

By now, we should understand just what we are doing to ourselves. . .Or, can't we admit that much?

[Virgil Showlion]

PoorandUgly
Message #241 - 08/13/10 10:10 PM

Number two, have candidates sign a document that states all campaign promises, which we all now casually accept as lies never expected to be honored, will be honored while the candidate serves in office. It should be accompanied with the proviso that should the candidate, on taking office, not live up to his/her promises, he/she would be drummed out of Congress. . the same as an officer in the military service was once forced to stand before an assembly and go through the ignominy of having the stripes ripped off his military dress, sword broken in two, drummed out of service and then ignored. Once an office holder has been subjected to the most degrading rejection ceremony, he/she should never thereafter, be allowed to hold another office, even deprived of his/her right to vote in order to demonstrate how despicable, distrustful and of little worth society regards him/her.

I like this idea very much. To think, that a typical politician who is supposed to represent us is not held to the same honorary standards as a military official is quite troubling and vexing to me.

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PoorandUgly
Message #242 - 08/16/10 01:11 PM

finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/110353/the-fed-is-not-out-of-silver-bullets?mod=bb-budgeting

Here is another typical example of the thinking of an Ivy League fascist economist from a fascist factory outlet called Wharton School of Business.

Again, this far-removed-from-reality elitist thinks that you can SOLVE A SOLVENCY DEBT DEBACLE WITH A LIQUIDITY ONE over the long term. Ahhh, if it were only that simple. This guy thinks our debt woes are like a dog, just let it roll over and pretend to play dead! LMAO.

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PoorandUgly
Message #243 - 08/16/10 01:23 PM

In [finance.yahoo.com/expert/article/futureinvest/256931] last month’s column I recommended that the Fed consider reducing the interest rate it pays on bank reserves to zero and engage in quantitative easing to help the economy emerge from the current soft patch. Quantitative easing, or QE as it is often called, occurs when the central bank expands the quantity of Federal Reserve credit by increasing the reserves in the banking system. QE is employed when the normal policy instrument of the Fed, the Federal Funds rate, is at or near zero.

I guess we can just tally up another person the Fed seems to be listening to and consorting with on running the show. Put this person on your shopping list, folks.

Some argue tha,t since banks already hold more reserves than required, additional reserves would not have any further effect on lending or economic activity. But that conclusion is not warranted. Banks hold large excess reserves because they wish to show regulators and investors a high level of liquidity.

Sure and maybe something like LOSSES, gobs and gobs of off the books, non-market-to-market past, present and future losses that overshadow it all has nothing to do with not lending more now and thinking of conservation. If it weren't for the accounting agency of FASB suspending rules due to Congressional pressure, all these losses would be recognized concurrently and the much of the financial sector would be declared insolvent. And thank to all those losses, partly the lenders' own fault as well as the borrowers signing on the dotted line themselves, why should there be more lending now??? Does not one ever learn to be more frugal, humble and careful going forward??? This guy believes in a parent giving another potentially maxed out credit card to their irresponsible, reckless, selfish jobless little child. Makes sense to me!!!!!!

Bottom line: This guy is another tool following a policy of putting more gasoline on a bad, out of control forest fire.

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PoorandUgly
Message #244 - 08/16/10 01:38 PM

Uncle Ben the dog trainer to Dog, the debt hound: "Sit boo boo sit, good dog."

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PoorandUgly
Message #245 - 08/16/10 02:44 PM

I think one of the scariest things in all this is that Depressions don't come along too often so many of the vast majority of "grown ups" alive today never have experienced these rare phenomena. At best, the few people who experienced the last Depression who are still alive today were only young kids upon the last Depression.

And no amount of books can replace experience when it comes to life events. Just because Uncle Ben has read a ton of books on the Depression of the thirties does not mean he is master on Depressions. And here is another newsflash for him and others who worship him: Every Depression is not the same as all others. You cannot just take out a cookbook recipe and conjure up some magic potion and poof, depression eradicated. How arrogant and selfishly misinformed!!!!!!!!

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PoorandUgly
Message #246 - 08/17/10 09:17 PM

Too many are out for themselves. There needs to be more constructive real talk, discussion of ideas and action by intelligent AND/OR people of clout who can somehow hasten us out of this quicksand. Market forecasts, paper pushing selling, trading schemes, binge borrowing, brandishing market omniscience and arrogance etc... are garbage and will not suffice.

How disappointing to say the least. But more typical than once thought.

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Jnap
Message #247 - 08/17/10 10:59 PM



The more I read the more I understand what the real problem is. It isn·t the FED, politicians, bankers, moneylenders or anything else. It is individual Americans. Each and every American is, to some degree, responsible for our collective failures or successes. Excluding excesses, which represent a small percentage of our Capitalistic system, the average American is either a culprit or hero.

Let·s assume that everyone posting on this message board is neither rich nor poor and economically fall somewhere in the middle.

To counter what someone said about the stock market defining our economy, I believe the economy defines the market. If the market is up the economy is up, if down then the market is down. Except for very short periods of extreme behavior the market gives the best picture and does reflect the economy.

I have to ask the message board posters whether they invest in the stock market or not?

I ask because it is indicative of their Capitalistic acumen. Additionally, I must ask if they have been successful investing; either in the market or their own business? Following on, did the Federal Reserve System personally effect their ability to succeed, or fail, and if so why?

I can·t find a single time in my life where the actions of the FED were the defining moment of my success or failure. Hell I can only think of one time in my life when interest rates were even a consideration regarding an investment or buying decision and that was when Nixon raised rates changing my house payment by $15.00 a month just before the closing. I wasn·t happy about it but it wasn·t significant enough to make much of a difference. Actually there was a second time when I was about to invest in something I didn·t completely understand and decided not to do it because the overall interest rates made it more speculative.

I said I didn·t completely understand what I was getting into and that was more than a valid reason to bow out. If anything the bankers stopped me from making a bad decision because there was more risk than what I was comfortable with.

The question then becomes: are we in a recession because the economy tanked or because, collectively, Americans made bad investments or buying decisions.

Did the FED help the average American make a bad decision? Maybe but it doesn·t excuse the individual from the responsibility or consequences of their actions.

We should stop blaming everyone else for our economic problems and start blaming the person most responsible·. ourselves.

I have to qualify what I just wrote and add that exclusion must be made for those whose finances were negatively affected by health related issues, all others, sorry.

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neohguy
Message #248 - 08/18/10 11:36 AM

The more I read the more I understand what the real problem is. It isn·t the FED, politicians, bankers, moneylenders or anything else. It is individual Americans. Each and every American is, to some degree, responsible for our collective failures or successes.

I agree. We reelected politicians for short term gains instead of long term productive strategies. We bought stock in companies that outsourced our manufacturing even though it was killing our economy. We praised Greenspan even though those policies would result in a long term failure.

I can·t find a single time in my life where the actions of the FED were the defining moment of my success or failure.

It's not popular to say this today but I believe Paul Volcker's tough love policy was responsible for outsourcing our manufacturing base. The "rust belt" fed presidents provided the funds and incentives for manufacturers to leave the area.

The fed, politicians, and too many citizens think that boosting the stock market will boost the economy. They've got it backwards. I read some of the excerpts from the Minneapolis fed pres yesterday. He said he was disappointed with the market response to QE2. Why is a fed pres even concerned about short term market reactions?

bloomberg.econoday.com/byshowevent.asp?fid=445872&cust=bloomberg

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PoorandUgly
Message #249 - 08/18/10 02:39 PM

The more I read the more I understand what the real problem is. It isn·t the FED, politicians, bankers, moneylenders or anything else. It is individual Americans. Each and every American is, to some degree, responsible for our collective failures or successes.

The fed, politicians, and too many citizens think that boosting the stock market will boost the economy.

Here's the secret: Politicians will never tell the public the truth b/c it would be a death sentence to them. So I will. They think the public is stupid and would love nothing better than to tell that to your face!!! And you know what, the public is stupid imho. They continue to vote in people who rob them blind. Not only that, but in general, the public is also myopic and selfish and reckless. They can only think and pout about the next election in front of them as if that will be the magic elixir to salvation. So the elitists including the typical bought and paid for politicians take advantage of our collective stupidity and myopia until the cows come home. Until one fine day there is only so much pillaging and widespread misfortune that occurs before something gives. It has happened before in modern human history and I wouldn't be surprised if it happens again in time possibly.

But again, though, this is not a black and white issue. I blame both the reckless, stupid, selfish, public that had no problems of consequence when borrowing beyond their means as well as the fascist elitists who aided, abetted and in fact took advantage of the publics' naivete in these get rich quick schemes via their own theft and rule making laws allowing it to occur. The Fed is but one facet of the collective fascists to that end.

Nonetheless, I believe we have to reform the entire system. On the political front, I like Old And Gray's idea for starters which is that anyone who runs for office going forward should be kept to the same standards as a military officer does upon swearing in the oath of office. If certain promises of policy, as documented before hand in their campaigns, are not kept, he should be stripped of office just as a commanding military officer is stripped of his honor as well when he does not uphold his honorable service. To me, unfortunately, this will not likely happen anytime soon if at all though as long as the thick web of conflicts of interest remain. Like I said, history sometimes dictates that it takes huge force of reaction to instill such reforms. Think of it like Einstein Law of Politics: Given "enough" action, there will be reaction.

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PoorandUgly
Message #250 - 08/18/10 03:30 PM

I love Vanity. It is my favorite Sin. There are politicians and folks out there who offer nothing constructive but ostentatious bullsht just as there are some folks online (even in MT among other websites) here who dilly dally with their own fancy talk in same bullsht. I keep it simple, straight, and to the point. Maybe controversial or offending to some? Well, guess what, I am not looking to run for office nor win a popularity contest. I don't give a fck. But I am sick of the bullsht.

Time for solving things and sacrifice now. While, I humbly admit to not knowing of sacrifice like past generations nor like current crop (such as in our current military among some others of today etc..) but I am willing to follow the real deal if and when I see it. But nope, I do not at all. Today's "Leaders" and politicians still talking about "middle class" this, "middle class" that...... LMAO, what middle class???!!!!!! They are dinosaurs that these arrogant bstrds in their vanity slush fund of the English language still throw out there as if the middle class are not becoming extinct as we speak!! Do you not know many many Americans are falling off the cliff as we speak??? Majority of country is broke, financials are insolvent and real unemployment is over 20%.

To even debate about the middle class this, or why we are not lending that ............ is ignorant, vanity of debate. The problems have been brewing over the decades and glaring us in the face like an elephant in the room for some time yet we still debate in committee and on these threads as to why there are no jobs, why lending in not increasing for small businesses etc... pathetic. I admit I was partly to blame too in the past but I am shedding robes of bull sht now unlike still many others. You won't find too many others be humble and honest like that. CONSTRUCTIVE TALK, not talk of where we've been or why we've been but WHAT IS BEST IDEAS FORWARD. But no, it is all about Vanity and a popularity contest to amass more clout of power and money. Let's just discuss about more QE so we can hoard more gold and food because we can proudly benefit from the "forecasts" whether markets go red or green as a result. Foooey. I do that too but that shouldn't take precedent now. Humble constructive thought of how to move forward is needed by intelligent thoughtful individuals now more than ever.

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PoorandUgly
Message #251 - 08/18/10 09:48 PM

I am a 50 year old woman and have been on unemployment for two years. I worked for 30 years with no breaks in employment until I was laid off in July of 2008. I have applied for every job opening I can find with no luck. I am now waiting on a tier 5 extension. Do you know where I·m waiting? In my car. That·s right, I have lost everything and now share my ford explorer with my 2 small dogs. Not because I don·t want to work, but because I can not find work.

This American female's name is Frances Whittle. She is just one of typically 2-4 million Americans who by winter of 2011 will have lost it all through no fault of their own but by the whims of others and bad luck with economy etc... But here we talk of "recovery" as if this is not happening in our own backyards. It is quite amusing that we just quickly gave millions of more unfunded dollars to Pakistan without any contention (where are all the conservatives on the deficit spending etc... with this??? Where are they, in the Hamptons now???) to help those foreign people in their time of need yet we fight and argue over funds to help suffering Americans in these dire times right over here. There is something very wrong with this picture.

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PoorandUgly
Message #252 - 08/18/10 10:05 PM

So depressed I don't know what to do homeless car not running no one will hire me why am I here!!

Another quote from another anonymous American on another website. What should this person do?? I can tell you many others probably don't give a care in the world what he/she does. Yeah, but tell this once hardworking, once filled with dignity person that we are "recovering". Just remember, there but for the grace of God go I. Or how about practicing some other religious tenet that says "Do unto others as they would have done unto you". Next to Vanity, even though not a Sin, you gotta love Hypocrisy/Ignorance. This country is either deaf, dum, blind and/or just heartless with our economic symptoms out there. What will it take for many to wake up to reality??

[Virgil Showlion]

Falling Sky - Not
Message #253 - 08/18/10 10:13 PM

Next to Vanity, even though not a Sin, you gotta love Hypocrisy/Ignorance.

Don't worry PoorandUgly - They will just ease their conscience by giving to some big, national, phony, charity that spends millions on it's officers and marketing departments! You got to love the American spirit! And now you can even ease your environmental guilt by buying "Carbon Offsets" Wow - What a Country we have become - And to think , not long ago I was was once proud of this country!

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PoorandUgly
Message #254 - 08/18/10 10:32 PM

This American's name is Sheryl Stutter. Here is a quote of hers from on another website:

I am one of the people fondly considered a ·99er. I lost my job in January 2008 and have been steadily looking for employment ever since. After six months of, what I consider, total despair, a glimmer of hope came my way in the form of a state backed program called No Worker Left Behind. Because of this wonderful program I will be receiving my Associates Degree in Geographic Information Systems after the fall 2010 term. Unfortunately, what I am seeing as I near my graduation date is that it is still hard to find a job. I have put out an average of five resume·s a day for the past three months, willing to relocate anywhere and have only received one phone call. The phone call was a recruitment company. My dilemma is this; when employers are receiving unprecedented numbers of resumes for one job, how are the people who are older going to compete against the normal college students coming out with degrees? How does one overcome these odds as they are battling the depression that comes with the losses that they are experiencing in their lives?

Here is the reality for those politicians that believe that we ·99er·s are a bunch of slackers just hanging out on our couches, or in front of our computers, living the trailer park life of our dreams, on the taxpayer·s dime. In Michigan the most that you can make on unemployment in one week is $362 and that is if you were making good money when you were working. It is considerably less for persons who held minimum wage jobs. This amount of money barely affords the necessities in life that are essential if these people are ever to have a prayers chance of getting out of their current situation. The thought that there are people in our government that honestly believe that the majority of the long-term unemployed are enjoying a free ride grates at my very being.

A person has worked most of their life at a job that suddenly isn·t there anymore. It wasn·t the greatest job, but it afforded their family the ability to hold their heads up high, knowing that their somewhat middle-class lifestyle was affordable and their bills were being paid. With the job loss there would be other losses as well, such as loss of health and other insurances. Not to mention how a loss such as this affects this person mentally in the areas of self-esteem and confidence. Depression comes in the form of a need to sleep, hoping that when they wake up things will be better. Next this person hears the major news that the banks are failing and this person witnesses the government rush to their rescue, making the decision to assist in record-breaking time. Even after certain banks were caught flagrantly spending money (remember the $6,000 for 18-holes of golf paid by members of AIG), the government graciously doled out more. Now American·s are losing jobs at an alarming rate, companies are failing and foreclosures are shooting through the roof.

This person is now collecting the, according to some, coveted unemployment, cutting out expenses that are not essential. The bills are falling behind; because there just isn·t enough money once they have made their house payment. Now this person has to make a choice. Does this person pay the bills and feed their family or does this person pay the mortgage? Where does the money come from if the car breaks down or gas prices shoot up to a ridiculous amount? Now there are millions of unemployed people and very few job prospects.

For every job that is posted there are a multitude of candidates, many young fresh faces just out of college. Where does this leave this middle-aged talented and qualified person in the job hunting world? It leaves them with extremely low prospects. The norm for many years was the natural order of things; college students came out into the job world while senior staffers were retiring. Now you have your normal young college students and middle-aged who normally would be nearing retire

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PoorandUgly
Message #255 - 08/18/10 10:35 PM

retirement, out competing for the same jobs. How is this ever going to work? Programs and or incentives are necessary for employers to be encouraged to hire older employees as well. Otherwise you most likely will see a good portion of a generation going to their graves early as broken people. Stress kills, and the fact that certain members of our government accuse these people of being ·slackers· is outrageous and does nothing more than add to the stress these fine people are already under. Trust me when I say that every unemployed person out there has put themselves through the ·am I good enough· question. Losing a job is as devastating as losing a loved one, trust me I know. Four months after I lost my job we lost a son-in-law and three year old grandson in a head-on collision. How many others of the millions that lost their jobs have has a loss of a loved one as well? Of those, how many have had to fight foreclosure on their homes? Now on top of that they are struggling in a jobs market that is not extremely interested in employing people that are nearing retirement age.

So to all the politicians out there that has no respect for the people that put them in office, stop and consider what devastating losses are happening in over a million peoples· lives. Do you honestly believe in your heart of hearts that they want it this way? Wake up to the needs of the people who put you in office. It·s not only job loss that we are dealing with here; it is a national depression, which has been brought on the domino effect of losing one·s life·s work. Stand up for the backbone of America and that backbone will bring the economy back. Previous experience tells us that it won·t be the banks that bring about healthy financial growth. Without people being able to pay their bills how can we ever hope for a return to good economic health? Their only hope is the people that hold the purse-strings. Unfortunately a purse that has been wide open for the ones that caused the initial problem has been drawn tight and locked for their victims.

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PoorandUgly
Message #256 - 08/18/10 10:43 PM

And yet many still continue to ponder why trust and confidence are so low. Well, when you treat and abandon Americans as if they are some useless dog or pet, they "may" feel abandoned (gee ya think??) by their own country, especially when they still suffer from lack of pittance of aid but while unfunded aid continues to rush to foreign places like Haiti or Pakistan. Some day maybe the "dogs" will possibly turn rabid. Who knows.

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PoorandUgly
Message #257 - 08/18/10 10:47 PM

And now for many of these Americans, since they are tapped out and used up their savings/401ks etc.., they can no longer feed the beast anymore. What beast am I talking about?? That beast called the stock market which relies on ever more additional marginal buyers to come in and continue to push stock prices up.

Did that get your attention??

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Jnap
Message #258 - 08/18/10 11:14 PM



P&U, there are many people out there with similar problems but aside from getting rid of the Federal Reserve you offer no solutions. Unemployment compensation has been extended many times to help these people but the economy is not going to recover quickly no matter what is done. The excesses that caused this decline will take a long time to resolve. The fact that people are getting more education is a good thing but they must also get a relevant education in a field that is hiring. Health care is one of these but there are others.

It must be recognized that there is no quick solution no matter which political party controls congress. Getting rid of all incumbents would just elect people that have no experience in legislation and would be about as effective as hiring high school kids to run a major company. Experience counts particularly in politics.

The days of quick fix are gone. Americans must find a way to compete worldwide and until we do, recovery is going to be very slow.

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Life was good
Message #259 - 08/19/10 12:32 AM

It must be recognized that there is no quick solution no matter which political party controls congress. Getting rid of all incumbents would just elect people that have no experience in legislation and would be about as effective as hiring high school kids to run a major company. Experience counts particularly in politics.

Sorry, but I totally disagree. Continuing to vote in the same lame Dem's and Rep's because somehow they have experience is ignorant thinking. Both political parties have a monopoly on politics thereby keeping others out of office. The suggestion that someone that has ownership in several business and actively manages two at a time cannot go to DC and make good sound Constitutional decisions is just plain stupid. Those voters that vote Dem or Rep because "I always have" or "my daddy was" are the ignorant ones that the monopoly parties prey upon.



If you think the politicians have more brains and experience then you or I, then you are the one with the problem. They put there pants (or skirts) on the same way every day folks do.



Forgetting that, and somehow think they are a special breed is the problem.



Wake Up America!

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itstippy
Message #260 - 08/19/10 01:50 AM

The question then becomes: are we in a recession because the economy tanked or because, collectively, Americans made bad investments or buying decisions.

We are in a recession because the economy tanked. The economy tanked because, collectively, Americans made horrendous buying decisions and considered them "investment decisions". They were encouraged to make wild speculations in real estate and the stock market by the Federal government. Repeal of the capital gains tax on sales of homes. Deregulation of the financial system to allow weirdo mortgages. 401(k) incentives to put your retirement funds into company stocks or stock-based mutual funds. "We'll have an 'ownership society' where we all get wealthy by buying expensive houses and having stock portfolios," the government said. Woo hoo! Admittedly, Average Joe should have listened to Grams & Gramps instead of the slicksters.

Bad investments and buying decisions indeed! Average Joe "buys" a brand-new 3,000 square foot house with 0% down, and puts all his retirement money into the stock market? Any idjit knows that's a recipe for disaster. Fancy houses are for people who ALREADY HAVE a pile of money, who can pay the property taxes and maintenance costs and finance charges without blinking. Large stock portfolios are for people who ALREADY HAVE bond, Treasury Note, and Certificate of Deposit portfolios (in addition to the fancy real estate) and can easily absorb wild stock market gyrations. Who's moronic idea was it that Average Joe should get involved in such risky endeavors? Our own government's.

Many here rightfully ask for some kind of solution and not just another rant. Here's a start: live on 75% of your after-tax income and save the rest. Get out of debt. Act like you've got a brain in your head, stash some coconuts in a safe place (several safe places, actually), and realize that the government is NOT looking after your best financial interests. It's up to you.

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common_sense.
Message #261 - 08/19/10 03:21 AM



Great post I agree totally. But for most Americans it is about the "show", the facade. The more show you have the more wealth is perceived - "bling". You can see this every day on the road - CARS! How many morons are driving something that takes 2 paychecks a month to drive and living in an apartment? Maybe they can't afford the house, the boat, the toys, but they are easily obliged the prestige of "owning" an expensive vehicle. The car business is a racket as proof in GM buying AmeriCredit for the sole purpose of putting low income folks into expensive vehicles- AGAIN!. When these people pay their car payment not much is left over. In the "old" days they just plowed more debt on credit cards and we see where that took us. We need responsibility in lending.

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Life was good
Message #262 - 08/19/10 12:02 PM

Maybe they can't afford the house, the boat, the toys, but they are easily obliged the prestige of "owning" an expensive vehicle. The car business is a racket as proof in GM buying AmeriCredit for the sole purpose of putting low income folks into expensive vehicles. When these people pay their car payment not much is left over. In the "old" days they just plowed more debt on credit cards and we see where that took us. We need responsibility in lending.

Here is the problem with statements like this, quick to blame the regular jack and jill, for going in over there head and demanding they live within there means. Well, if we are to hold all americans responsible for there good and bad purchasing, investing and loan decisions, then why are my tax dollars going to bailout banks and corporations for their purchasing, investing and loan decisions.



Hopefully you can see the big picture here. US Gov and Fed Res are quick to launch full fledged trillion dollar bailout programs for Bank and Corps, but argue about extending unemployment and State services.



Which translates into US Gov is by the Bank/Corp for the Bank/Corp instead of by the people for the people.



Once you realize we sent billions of taxpayer dollars and the fed printed money from nothing to send to foreign central banks to keep foreign economies from collapsing, then maybe you won't be so quick to call out the irresponsible youth of America. who is more irresponsible, youth of America, that bought big house and car they couldn't afford? or US Gov and Fed that bailed out banks and corps for bad loans and investments? For example approximately 9 billion of US money went to New Zealand, which translates into $3000 bucks for every man woman and child in New Zealand. WoW, and we blame our youth!



Personal Responsibility cannot be overstated, but lack of responsibility on the part of American People is not what got us into this financial mess. The blame is squarely on the US Congress and the federal reserve, central banking scam.

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PoorandUgly
Message #263 - 08/19/10 01:27 PM

P&U, there are many people out there with similar problems but aside from getting rid of the Federal Reserve you offer no solutions.

Quote from Jnap above.

ROFL, I do admire your temerity let alone lack of reading comprehension. This thread was started to offer solutions which I have posited here and there even after the very first post with the Fed. Granted, you may disagree with everything I have to say. That is your biased political or or otherwise right or prerogative. And frankly my dear, I do not give a damn. You seem to be doing that with a number of people on here. Just don't ignorantly say I have not offered any solutions. And btw, I never intimated that there is a quick fix or solution. Your bias is evident and it is you who have not offered anything solutions grounded in reality. For instance, this is what you also just said in your most recent last post:

The fact that people are getting more education is a good thing but they must also get a relevant education in a field that is hiring. Health care is one of these but there are others.

Wow, get an education in a field that is hiring - genius, now why didn't many on here think of that!!!!?? If you knew any better or were grounded in reality and not ignorance, you would know that our economy is so structurally flawed now that a great many people who have tons of education (let alone student loan debt) in fields that were hiring til recently, such as nurses and engineers are now getting laid off because of state and local cutbacks at places like quasi publicly hospitals or the never ending outsourcing problem with once thought of invincible jobs such as engineers.

I acknowledge that I don't have an answer for everything. That is why this thread was established. To pick the brains of other posters to come to constructive solutions to our socio-economic problems. Your ostentatious, unproductive disagreement with many on here is not germane nor productive. Please take your bias or agenda elsewhere.

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PoorandUgly
Message #264 - 08/19/10 01:39 PM

Many here rightfully ask for some kind of solution and not just another rant. Here's a start: live on 75% of your after-tax income and save the rest. Get out of debt. Act like you've got a brain in your head, stash some coconuts in a safe place (several safe places, actually), and realize that the government is NOT looking after your best financial interests. It's up to you.

itsippy,

I concur. Not just now, but it should have always been the case that Americans save and not live paycheck to paycheck. But now, our problems are expanding where it is not only a spending problem but a lack of income and demand problem. The economy as portrayed in GDP stats etc.. ultimately rests on final aggregate demand. And that aggregate demand is swirling down. Ironically, some or much of it now will be at the expense of a rising savings rate. Even our current savings rate of 6.4% is still way below the historical average of 12%. So like I thought for a long time now, even people with jobs are heeding your advice by saving and hoarding funds now and will continue to do so. But the "paradox of thrift" will inevitably complicate things more so going forward for our economy, even though more savings is necessary.

[Virgil Showlion]

Jnap
Message #265 - 08/19/10 11:12 PM



P&U you have only one solution and that is to get rid of the Federal Reserve. Your rants go on and on with that subject and frankly even though you advocate that endlessly it is not going to happen.

I have posted many solutions including re-domesticating some of our lost industries but also pointed out that we are competing in a world wide economy. Try reading posts 88,97,100,106,110,118,131,180 and 184 and you will notice that I have offered many sensible solutions to our ·greater depression·.

Education does work and it has kept me and many millions of Americans working all of our adult lives. I have been in the computer industry 45 years and have had steady employment for 30 years with a major company and 15 years as a business owner.

Please look at the following link and then tell me education doesn·t work.



usgovinfo.about.com/od/moneymatters/a/edandearnings.htm



I don·t know if you have advanced education or not but never think that being uneducated is a benefit to anyone. You continually say that you personally know educated people that are unemployed. So what, does that make education irreverent? Maybe their field just isn·t hiring at this time. Or maybe they will have to change their profession. Having a degree will make that easier to do than if they didn·t. You write as if you are will educated but your myopic approach says you are inflexible.



I do agree with istippy on the reasons for the recession and it should be noted that never did he blame the Federal Reserve.



P&U I don·t wish to battle with you so let·s just say we disagree and move on.

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PoorandUgly
Message #266 - 08/20/10 12:42 PM

P&U you have only one solution and that is to get rid of the Federal Reserve. Your rants go on and on with that subject and frankly even though you advocate that endlessly it is not going to happen.

I have posted several times on here other ideas. For one, use our patented rights and laws of protections to move headquarters of any corporation that outsources the majority of its labor force out of this country. This is but one suggestion. Other posters on here can vouch that I have suggested this let alone other ideas. Do you want the page # for that? Since you were up a good 40 minutes getting all your posts and pages in order, here is but one of mine in a second: see page 10, post #114. And just remember, Jnap, READING COMPREHENSION IS FUNDAMENTAL.

Dude, your education idea is contrite and beyond obtuse. Not only that, you did not still address my refutation on that front with people who have ten million years of education and degrees in experience in fields that were once thought of as invincible two seconds ago, ENGINEERS for starters. Many corporations that require specific skills demand a certain education of course, but several years later may still then move the jobs overseas and the educated person is sol again and has to go back for more education and in more student loan debt. Here is a new one for you: economists call it structural unemployment. Look it up. But now it is even more complicated than even that as I just discussed in aforementioned paragraph.

So stop brandishing ostentatious wisdom for what is really brain dead common place rip off of an idea, talking like others in the western hemisphere have not talked about more education already for the ten millionth time. It is beyond obvious you offer nothing innovative and new. Your vein ways getting the last word in wreaks. Just move on from this thread since you want to engage in contact sports. I love them too but I will not bother with your unproductive, neverending, futile bias that impossibly cannot be reconciled with no matter what evidence is shown your way.

So Jnap, I don't know about your education, but it is you who should move on if you are sagacious from your EDUCATION. Not too wise to again and again attack me by saying I offer no ideas but the Fed. You my friend should run for office as you are a good liar.

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PoorandUgly
Message #267 - 08/20/10 01:41 PM

So what, does that make education irreverent?

And no it doesn't. Newsflash: I never thought more education was NOT good. You can't go wrong with more and more education (especially if you have someone to foot the cost.)

But, Jnap, btw, I do not know about your education but in my education, I was taught the word is irrelevant, not irreverent.

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Life was good
Message #268 - 08/20/10 01:48 PM



Jnap the link is from data taken during the 90's. I will be looking in about two years for the 2010 data, which will be interesting in comparison. Taken into consideration inflated dollars and stagnate wages during the first decade of the 21's century it will be interesting to say the least.



The Federal Reserve system is broken, since authorized in 1913 the dollar has lost 96% of its value. Over the years the Treasury and Congress have ceded power to the fed. The boom and bust cycles, instability of currency and lack of direct oversight allowing worldwide mischief is reason enough to rethink the Federal Reserve Act of 1913. Likewise that same year the 16th amendment authorizing tax on income was ratified. This amendment needs serious consideration of change.



Both are nearly 100 years old and were adopted in a different time, which none of us know. I read Jnap your opinions and suggestions of more education and changing career fields, etc. But you outright reject changing 100 year old acts and laws and treat it as untouchable.



If the US was a corporation taken this much lose, or if a military unit took these kinds of loses, there would be an immediate bottom up review and significant changes would be made. To include the business model and plan.



We as a country need to look hard at what got us in this mess and that needs to include:



Fed Reserve Act (every dollar printed is another dollar of debt)

16th amendment (income tax which is not fairly applied across the board)

Free Trade Agreements (Which are not fair)

Revamping the education system (going to school has become more about money then learning)

Recall and downsize the military (DOD needs to defend this country not police the world)

Amend the constitution to reflect the right to vote is extended to natural born citizens (No immigrants, legal or otherwise should ever be allowed to vote)

Change campaign finance laws (Basically all elections should be treated as local elections)(No financing should be allowed from outside of the election area. city, county, state, etc)



These are my top priorities for change in the United States of America.



It would be healthy to debate and discuss all my priorities. However Jnap, until we can get past the Lazy fat, dumb, need more education American's comments, the real debate of issues, I am afraid will never occur.

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Falling Sky - Not
Message #269 - 08/20/10 01:56 PM

Life is Good - I like the way you think!

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PoorandUgly
Message #270 - 08/20/10 01:57 PM

Life, aside from what was already discussed and agreed on, we really need now to downsize our military as our main national security threat does not come from outside invaders. Although, that threat is still great, our biggest national security threat is our economy. Addressing that now has to take priority. Regardless of party, both know that the biggest budgetary item is defense. Hence, to conserve money, we must cut from the defense budget as that is the biggest drain on our deficits and debt. We have no choice if we want to make a dent in the government spending equation.

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PoorandUgly
Message #271 - 08/20/10 02:48 PM

finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/and-now-we%27re-headed-for-the-greatest-depression-says-gerald-celente-535350.html?tickers=^dji,^gspc,tlt,tbt,edv,udn,tip&sec=topStories&pos=7&asset=&ccode=

In the above link, I never always agreed with the subject speaker but unfortunately over the last year or so our opinions have aligned in concert. Based on same beliefs, I wouldn't be surprised if and when a new "civil war" erupts.

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PoorandUgly
Message #272 - 08/20/10 02:52 PM

In other words, on the political front, another part of the solution lies in the necessity for the next Teddy Roosevelt as a President. He knew how to stand up to the fascist, jeklyll robber barron fascists from JP Morgan himself to other railroad barron trusts in his day. They didn't call him a "trust buster" for nothing. He knew that if banking and other large private conglomerates wrestled control of the economy (which they of course did officially once 1913 came), then like Jefferson, Jackson and other Presidents saw in their admonitions, the American "little" people would become very vulnerable and more likely stripped of their wealth in the future. And that future may in fact be here now.

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Life was good
Message #273 - 08/20/10 03:26 PM



Downsizing our military will not be an easy task. The size is a direct result of the Reagan 600 ship navy philosophy. Although never achieved, the result helped bankrupt the USSR and ended the cold war. The drawdown had actually started under the Reagan administration and was held up by Bush for Gulf war I. The Clinton Administration attempted a drawdown, and it in fact reduced the active duty force, but unfortunately replaced them with Contractors. The military machine we had in the mid eighties which was a self sustaining force no longer exists. The new military is heavily dependent on contractors, from chow hall duties to aircraft maintenance.



To start with, I would remove all combat units from Japan and Okinawa. Allow the Japanese to create there own defense. This would do two things, reduce our DOD cost significantly and actually spur growth in Japan's industrial sector in creating a new military defense. The program would take 5 years to complete.



Secondly, I would remove all combat troops from Europe. Get out of the way of the EU and NATO. 3 years to complete.



Thirdly, I would merge USMC ground/Helo forces into the US Army. USMC tactical air to the Navy. The elimination of the USMC would have significant savings. 7 years to complete.



Forth, Eliminate DOD funded think tanks. Waste of Money and only creates jobs for retired brass and Phd's with no combat experience. 1 year to complete



Fifth, Eliminate half the Flag officers. They are left over's from Cold War and War on Terror. 2 years to complete



These would be my top priorities in changing DOD. However, keep in mind every DOD person, whether active duty, reserve, or civilian means job loses. So we would have to be very careful not to rush the downsizing and ensure job growth was adequate to handle the job loses.



I can publish my next 5 priorities but it would involve cancellations of specific programs etc.

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Jnap
Message #274 - 08/20/10 04:33 PM



Wow, Talk about right wing extremism. Removing the right to vote from even legal immigrants would have denied most or many of our relatives from voting. And since many do not think that everyone born in the US should be an automatic citizen that would eliminate even them. who is left to vote, only second generation people born in this country?



By the way PU the spell checker changed the word to irreverent and I missed it. It is a good description though of your writings as regarding other message board posters opinions. You are irreverently irrelevant as far as I am concerned. Enjoy your delusions on what you think will happen to this country because what you advocate will never, never happen. There are millions of sensible people that have obtained a secure and prosperous life built on their educational foundation, balancing wants and needs, debt free and enjoying the many freedoms this country offers. I am one of them and do not believe that radical actions would do anything to help Americans prosper. You would suggest that we run the government as we do a business.

Since the word Fascism is thrown around so much perhaps you should know the definition, obtained from wikipedia:

Fascism rejects the concepts of [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egalitarianism] egalitarianism, [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism] materialism, and [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalism] rationalism in favor of action, [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discipline] discipline, [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierarchy] hierarchy, [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit] spirit, and [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_(philosophy)] will. They oppose [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism] liberalism (as a [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourgeois] bourgeois movement) and [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism] Marxism (as a [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proletariat] proletarian movement) for being exclusive economic class-based movements. Fascists present their ideology as that of an economically trans-class movement that promotes ending economic [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_conflict] class conflict to secure national solidarity. They believe that economic classes are not capable of properly governing a nation, and that a merit-based [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristocracy] aristocracy of experienced military persons must rule through regimenting a nation's forces of production and securing the nation's independence Fascism perceives [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism] conservatism as partly valuable for its support of order in society but disagrees with its typical opposition to change and [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modernization] modernization. Fascism presents itself as a solution to the perceived benefits and disadvantages of conservatism by advocating state-controlled modernization that promotes orderly change while resisting the dangers to order in society of pluralism and independent initiative.

If you believe our Government is fascist it explains a lot about you doesn't it?

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Life was good
Message #275 - 08/20/10 04:52 PM

Wow, Talk about right wing extremism. Removing the right to vote from even legal immigrants would have denied most or many of our relatives from voting. And since many do not think that everyone born in the US should be an automatic citizen that would eliminate even them. who is left to vote, only second generation people born in this country?

Yes, you are correct, only second generation immigrants born in this country would have the right to vote. At that point they would be called Americans and not Italians, Mexicans, African's etc. This would remove the incentive of politicians to allow unabated immigration assaults on our country for the purpose of political gain and change. It also ensure those with a vote, actually grew up in this country and now have a vested personal interest in changes. To eliminate the changing of my opinion I will add that every person born in the United States territories is a Citizen. Please don't try to change my points!



It is not a right wing idea, it is an American first Philosophy. I am neither Democrat or Republican, my ideas manage to make both parties mad. Likewise my conservative friends call me liberal and my liberal friends call me conservative. I just Laugh!

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bubblyandblue
Message #276 - 08/20/10 05:18 PM

Glad Life-was Good was not one of our founding fathers, heck we would never have made it to where we are without immigration. Suppose you like the idea of putting up a wall on the Mexican boarder....a wall, you know, like the one taken down not long ago in Europe and the one put up in Isreal. Only ours is overpriced, stuffed with special interests and, comes with all those little fandangled gizmos. Yea, a wall on the Mexican boarder, we can call it the 9th 'wonder-what-the-F' in the world did we do that for. So to give you a good laugh, I think your conservative friends might add the word 'crazy' liberal and your liberal friends may call you 'crazy' conservative but, I'll just call you crazy right down the middle.

[Virgil Showlion]

PoorandUgly
Message #277 - 08/20/10 05:44 PM

By the way PU the spell checker changed the word to irreverent and I missed it.

You are irreverently irrelevant as far as I am concerned.

Jnap, your ignorance speaks volumes as you continue to post on this thread. I will never be "irreverently irrelevant" as I authored this thread you dope. And your excuse for spell checker intimates that not only are you a liar as I clearly proved, but you have an excuse and answer for everything as you know nothing of admitting wrong. You clearly prove my point how humility is lacking in our society. That spell checker rationale indicates you are as reckless too as you are ignorant and ostentatiously self-righteous. And do you use wikepedia for everything?? Fascism ALWAYS needs a military as most any sovereign state, thereby government, needs a military to keep a nation from chaos ruling, fool!!

But I will make it really simple for you in clear non-fancy terms, FASCISM is synonymous with corporatism. And if you do not think that has been going on in the USA in sociopolitical affairs for a long long time, you live on the show, The Jersey Shore, where education is not fundamental. Just be gone dude, no one needs ignorant liars on this thread, there are plenty other places where many share your traits. I have neither the time, nor the inclination to explain myself further to you. You are trifling, insignificant and in fact irreverent, be gone. I just explained historically to others how fascism first started as part of our past with Teddy Roosevelt trying to hold it off. But that historical backdrop blew right past you because your bias agenda is as thick as your IT brain.

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Life was good
Message #278 - 08/20/10 05:49 PM



Wow, I never imagined suggesting cleaning up the voter pool to allow only natural born citizens to vote would bring out so much hostility.

Glad Life-was Good was not one of our founding fathers, heck we would never have made it to where we are without immigration.

I wonder why our founding fathers didn't allow women or slaves to vote, and made it clear that the President had to be a natural born citizen. Later we changed to allow women and provided full citizenship to slaves so they could vote. The argument was not about immigration as the above were citizens.



Before you bring in the founding of this country 200+ years ago in a conversation about fixing what ill's the country today, you should first read history.

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bubblyandblue
Message #279 - 08/20/10 06:02 PM

Well it funny how amendments to the Constitution recognize mistakes and correct them...it takes a while to do of course but, your now thinking of changing things with the constitution to fix what? market dynamics? voting rights? I don't know where your going. So how does this natural born thing correct whatever injustice? Please explain, in the greater context of our Republic, what will this change accomplish? whats the greater good?

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Life was good
Message #280 - 08/20/10 06:07 PM



bubblyandblue

Suppose you like the idea of putting up a wall on the Mexican boarder....a wall, you know, like the one taken down not long ago in Europe and the one put up in Isreal.

Why? While in a discussion would you suppose anything other than what I stated. Please, stick to what I say and critique those statements. No need to make stuff up and then slam me as if I stated it. My goodness, have you never had an intellectual discussion or have you watched to many political attack commercials? Please feel free to counter any and all of my ideas with constructive counters, but no need for all the made up stuff bringing hostilities.

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PoorandUgly
Message #281 - 08/20/10 06:16 PM

You see there are many politicians, corporate chieftains, and others who are infallible for many reasons, but I see three in particular that seem to be shared by all. 1. not admitting deception or mistake was wrong (in their hearts). 2. Not knowing how to say sorry and learn next time (truly again from the heart) and 3. even if after saying "sorry" (not sincerely as it is not from the heart), not being humble enough to pay the punitive price for that lie or mistake unless through brute force thereafter. It has become more abundant in my generation as we have taken a page or two out of the baby boomer one that this has become a plague. In the 30's, that is why they put new enforcement rules and regulations in place in the first place. To stop and prevent future reckless and lying schemes from bilking or draining the system.

Now, just as a very small, small, sample, we have Blegovich, Madoff, Clemens etc............. 3 people from different walks of life but do you see the common denominators as discussed above??? What does this have to do with anything? Well, like I mentioned earlier in thread, this generational societal problem of bad traits like this is part and parcel of why we are where we are. The Depression is partly a consequence of our malfunctioning society lacking more of these things unlike the others who have come before them in more moderate tone. Here is one way I think about it: Recessions are there to wipe away excesses that built up in the "cycle" before but Depressions come in to wipe away the excessive plagues that have accumulated for even longer before.

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bubblyandblue
Message #282 - 08/20/10 06:18 PM

I apologize. I am still interested in the greater good or reason to implement the voting standard you pursue. Again I apologize for my remarks, and not to make an excuse, I get frustrated with red herring arguments gaining traction and, improperly bombed you - just thought (wrongly) the vote thing was headed that direction.

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F-Y-I
Message #283 - 08/20/10 06:21 PM

FYI. The video link is not PBS, its larouche pac and if you google Bill Still you will see Ron Paul endorsement.

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PoorandUgly
Message #284 - 08/20/10 06:25 PM

It is not a right wing idea, it is an American first Philosophy. I am neither Democrat or Republican, my ideas manage to make both parties mad. Likewise my conservative friends call me liberal and my liberal friends call me conservative. I just Laugh!

I am the same way. It is rather amusing that everything is divided by party lines. Also, I concur with you Life on drawing down troops from abroad. However, our immigration issues are such a thorny problem that it is not clear cut on how to address those. But like I said, one source of the problem lies in the unfettered demand by FASCIST corporations who get away with hiring illegal immigrants with impunity granted from our complicit government. As long as that continues unabated, we cannot practically address the growing problem.

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bubblyandblue
Message #285 - 08/20/10 06:38 PM



Poorandugly, i have not gone over to using Fascist corporations just yet but, I agree the corporations that hire illegaly are the culprits causing our immigration "problem" and a fence will not make a dent. The fence is just a symbol used by the politicians to project artificial bravado and just a herring to point out. I also have not been a fan of empire or other-nation building or meddling with those others as was the case with our founders.

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PoorandUgly
Message #286 - 08/20/10 06:38 PM

FYI, the website I got it from was where the link came from. It was forwarded to me sometime ago through referral. While the source should be always important, I found the subject matter to be very educational and historically learned, especially from an economic perspective. As was already discussed, I think the solution as it relates to the Fed (especially in carrying out) will be extremely difficult to implement now. It may be unfortunately too late. But there is such a web of interweaving complexity to our problems and how to address them, that this is not your grandparent's Depression with just over leverage in a narrow sector whereby tycoon Americans from Wall Street then "jump off rooftops" to end it all. Wall Street since then seemed to learn a lesson or two as they are living it up during these times while more and more everyday folk are thinking of ending it all by "jumping off rooftops".

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PoorandUgly
Message #287 - 08/20/10 06:43 PM

A fence at the Mexican border, imho, will be a very temporary fix, if at best, for the illegal labor immigration and labor problems. If there is demand for cheap, illegal labor that the government allows to occur thanks to bipartisan kick backs and other originally campaign funded money from corporations, then we are just spinning our wheels as far as that goes.

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bubblyandblue
Message #288 - 08/20/10 07:00 PM

Poorandugly, key to what you say is "that the government allows to occur" or in my thinking, breaking the law (existing) is being allowed. To go off-key a bit - If an immigrant was hired by a company that followed the law, employment taxes, social security, minimum wage, safety regs etc. would be paid into the system. You would have a situation where that labor would be more expensive (good). In that scenario, politicians would not be heard to say "they are taking jobs that Americans won't do" because now, you have wages that Americans would be willing to do the job for. Also, you would get away from illegal competition between companies that are not law abiding (low cost and nationally destructive) and law abiding (higher cost and economically constructive).

[Virgil Showlion]

PoorandUgly
Message #289 - 08/20/10 07:21 PM

Unfortunately bubblyandblue, many times logic and reality do not coincide for a variety of reasons. What can I say?

Not to go off target but much of life with humans at the center of it doesn't follow some magical mathematical formula. Too many random variables to account for. So one only can dream life could be followed by some black and white step by step, Einstein or Steven Hawking formula where the conclusion called "Peace, prosperity and happiness for all" is reached. In mathematics, they call this bias error. In life, we call these agendas or conflicts of interest.

Oh well.

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PoorandUgly
Message #290 - 08/20/10 07:44 PM

I concur with Life that the Constitution is an integral part of a solution. The more I think about it, the more I believe we need to use it as an ally in the competition we face with the outsourcing and slave labor wages with which we compete. So many of these countries abroad do not have that "political patent" called the Constitution as the US has. That is one of our few hopes left. But many conflicts of interest stand in the way, especially from big business to allow our patented constitution protect our own citizens here in America. Too much greased money has gotten in the way of the foundation of ideals making America once great, not CHINA great now!!

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Life was good
Message #291 - 08/20/10 07:44 PM

I am still interested in the greater good or reason to implement the voting standard you pursue.

The purposes for tightening of the voter standards is reduce fraud waste and abuse. If Immigrants went through the process, identified properly and issued permanent resident status and then left alone with no further involvement, ie path to citizenship, then we would save money. It would eliminate the need for continues changing of the rules and standards. Reduce the manpower and equipment currently used for immigration and facilities. Further it would take away the temptation for congress to play and debate immigration and amnesty programs for the sake of collecting votes. It would help also ensure that all American Voters at least have the basic skills of communication (English) and afforded a basic education where they learned history and government (I hope). This again saves money.



FYI, my wife is first generation immigrant and my children and grand children are all naturally born citizens. My wife gained citizenship in the 70's and studied and went to night school for 6 months to past the test. We now have two niece's in the country and the path to citizenship is basically wait the time, raise hand, say oath and your a Citizen. Neither speak english very well, and have no knowledge of american history or politics.



Although my wife is informed, reads and speaks english well enough to participate in elections, many of her friends from their country do not. Having discussed this issue with her, she actually agreed that it would make more sense, to withhold voting rights for all but natural born citizens. She is more than happy knowing the children and grand children are Americans and can participate in all facets of American life.



The illegal immigration issue is a different topic: Building walls and Army posts all along the border does not address the fundamental problem. However, the current situation with basically a war on our southern border requires a defensive position for protecting the United States. Local law enforcement and federal border patrol have proven inadequate to prevent the war and illegal crossing into this country. Therefore a temporary presence of National Guard or US Military troops is necessary to bolster the inadequate law enforcement currently employed.



To address the fundamental problem, we need to first remember that most of the folks crossing the border are downtrodden human beings that are looking for a better life. (BTW, Giving up the right to vote will never play into the need to come across) The root cause is Mexico's corrupt government, and the inability to capitalize on their natural resources. NAFTA has harmed Mexico just as much as the United States. IMO, Canada is the only winner, and only marginally. NAFTA needs to be voided and new fair agreements discussed and enacted without the involvement of the WTO. Laws need to be passed, stating US Corps doing business in foreign countries still have to abide by US labor and environmental laws, besides the laws of the foreign host country.

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PoorandUgly
Message #292 - 08/20/10 08:24 PM

Deregulation and bailouts favor the country·s largest corporations, at the expense of small business, Celente believes. ·They·re squeezing out everybody else." Policies like these have created the widest wealth gap in the industrialized world, he says; ·10% of the nation controls 93% of the assets." The only way to turn the tide, says Celente, is to ·put back what was in place that worked,· like the Glass-Steagall Act and the Sherman Antitrust Act, which exists in name only. ·That·s what stopped the robber barons from raping the country.·

Quote above was from Gerald Celente. He goes on to say this:

The only way to turn the tide, says Celente, is to ·put back what was in place that worked,· like the Glass-Steagall Act and the Sherman Antitrust Act, which exists in name only. ·That·s what stopped the robber barons from raping the country.·

Celente is confident more regulation on the largest companies will help entrepreneurs, which in turn strengthening a fading middle class · the backbone of our society. ·America becomes strong again when the middle builds big again,· he says.

Unfortunately, Celente sees the trend going in the opposite direction. ·The merger of state and corporate powers, let·s calls a spade a spade. It·s fascism.·

I think he has been listening to me lol. I have been yelling this, as some have observed, at the top of my lungs since 2008. I thought then, just like now, that once the TARP was passed, it was game over and we would be worse off. And so we have. In the end we have to learn things the hard way. Tragic and pathetic.

In fact, because cities and states are so strapped, I see two scenarios play out going forward. Either the inevitable bailouts for states and localities occur (which at this point should if banks get bailed out why not states??) and/or 2. in states like California for instance, corporations are going to own more and more of the states' assets and revenue producing activities. For instance, as a hypothetical, I see a Google or Intel or Microsoft in California taking over its roads and nearby toll bridges etc..

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PoorandUgly
Message #293 - 08/20/10 08:31 PM

I disagree with Celente on the idea that simply more regulations is the cure. Even though I think laws like Glass Stegall should never have been removed in the first place, without competent, conflict of interest free enforcement, all rules and regulations then or now on the books, discussing new regulation or their potential effects is moot.

Like I said, we need more current enforcement through more morally bound and ethical Elliot Nesses and Wyatt Earp's of the world. Like diamonds in the rough, they are few and far between to be found currently. The fact is the SEC, CFTC and other agencies who are supposed to carry out and enforce the securities laws and regulations are bought and paid for. They are failing beyond belief. The game was already rigged, most but only the most vile guilty culprits (Madoff) continue with impunity their thievery business as usual. Many many more roaches on Wall Street are to be uncovered, indicted, convicted and sentenced to prison for a long time. Do you see that? Of course not. No, these thieves get rewarded with huge bonuses instead. Sign of the times. It is a plague and it is killing this country like a death by a thousand cuts.

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bubblyandblue
Message #294 - 08/20/10 08:42 PM



I get what your saying, but the war along the boarder has never been fought by prosecuting those who hire illegal imigrants to gain competitive advantage by breaking so many laws (IRS tax Code, Labor laws, OSHA regulations etc). It seems always to have been a fight to keep the crossing in the cross hairs. Frankly, drug interdiction at the boarder and thwarting terrorists (just had to add that smelly fear mongoring) should be a priority and not immigrant migration. That fight should be directed at the folks hiring, those folks who are undermining our economy and national security. I would think, after throwing tens of billions into homeland security, that the price of cocaine would have gone-up in the streets....it has not -sources tell me. The point to be made is, if you can deliver tons of illegal drugs into this country, you can deliver tons of terrorist materials into this country and, throwing money at a direct fence will not raise the cost of an illegal laborer in this country.

I agree that trade agreements should force any corporations (USA based or not) - doing trade within our borders, to follow all of our laws in whatever country they reside regarding labor, environmental, human rights etc.

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Jnap
Message #295 - 08/23/10 11:18 PM



US companies do abide by the rules of the United States so I have no idea where some think they don·t and they also must abide by the rules of the foreign countries where they conduct business. However you can not require a US company doing business in a foreign country to apply the laws of the US, anymore than a foreign company doing business in the US must adhere to the laws of their country. As an example the first law that would have to be applied is minimum wage. How could you expect a US company to pay US minimum wage in a country where the average wage is one fifth ours? It would be impossible and completely upset the wage structure of that country. Not to mention workers compensation, liability insurance, pension benefits and other factors that apply here but not there. Furthermore how would you enforce these laws in a foreign country?

The outsourcing of jobs to other countries is not against any law in our constitution nor does it violate any free trade agreements.

I personally don·t like the idea of jobs going overseas but there is nothing standing in the way, legally, preventing companies doing so.

Immigration policy and law is a complicated issue and there are many people living in the United States that are not citizens but can work here under different programs. There are 5 or 6 categories of EB (employment based) programs allowing foreigners to work and live here indefinitely, without becoming a citizen. The last statistic I found indicated there are 1.3 million people living here with EB status.

The most common reference is to those with a green card.

Under the current administration the focus has been in going after companies that hire illegal immigrants and penalizing them with the full force of current law. Here is a quote from a Washington post article.

The Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency expects to deport about 400,000 people this fiscal year, nearly 10 percent above the Bush administration's 2008 total and 25 percent more than were deported in 2007. The pace of company audits has roughly quadrupled since President [www.whorunsgov.com/Profiles/George_W._Bush] George W. Bush's final year in office.

The effort is part of [www.whorunsgov.com/Profiles/Barack_Obama] President Obama's larger project "to make our national laws actually work," as he put it in a speech this month at American University. Partly designed to entice Republicans to support comprehensive immigration reform, the mission is proving difficult and politically perilous.

It may seem to some that nothing is being done about illegal immigration but as you can see that is not true.

A problem that has been allowed to develop for so many years can not be solved overnight. I, for one, do not want to have to carry my passport or birth certificate with me at all times to prove I am an American citizen. The law passed in Arizona, and temporarily stopped from being implemented, by the Obama administration, would have required just that because these are the only documents that can prove citizenship.

I am not willing to give up part of my freedom just to make some people feel that they are doing something even if it is detrimental to them. The idea of ·please show me your papers· anytime a law enforcement officer stops you for even a sobriety roadblock smacks of the Nazi regime.

An additional comment to LIG about voting: Don·t you remember the thing about taxation without representation? Being a tax paying citizen of the first generation and not being able to vote would be just that. Isn·t that one of the reasons for the revolution?

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Life was good
Message #296 - 08/24/10 01:11 AM

How could you expect a US company to pay US minimum wage in a country where the average wage is one fifth ours? It would be impossible and completely upset the wage structure of that country. Not to mention workers compensation, liability insurance, pension benefits and other factors that apply here but not there.

You have just hit the nail on the head. Exactly, that is why free trade is not free. This is exactly what is wrong with the one world organizations and agreements of WTO, GATT, NAFTA, etc. The real question should be how can America companies compete being required to follow all those "upsetting" rules that do not need to be adhered to if your outside of the country. Basically we in this country made laws to make life better for workers. Corporations went overseas so they did not need to follow those laws. Good on them, at that point, we need to deny all US Government contracts to any Corporation outside of the US that is not following the US Labor laws. This would bring many a corp back home. Thank about, Halliburton, denied government contracts while they bask in the Arabian sands. You see, companies inside the US competing for Gov Contacts against US companies headquartered overseas using foreign labor is not Fair completion. Likewise US companies outsource significant portions of there operations competing against countries that are not, not fair competition. If we say, we don't care, then change all the US labor laws to say every man for themselves and I can then compete. Keep in mind the largest portion of most gov contracts is G&A. If Company A is all American, G&A will be higher than Company B that outsources Accounting and Finance, Customer Support etc to overseas countries. You see, that becomes unfair competition. Company A can never win on cost award. They then are forced to outsource jobs or go out of business, neither helps our unemployment situation. So ask yourself, are you an American or A Worlder. I am an American First, always.

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Life was good
Message #297 - 08/24/10 01:19 AM

Under the current administration the focus has been in going after companies that hire illegal immigrants and penalizing them with the full force of current law. Here is a quote from a Washington post article.

No doubt, however, the law needs to be changed to state one rule. All hires must be approved through the verification system. If you hire someone and they are an illegal worker, your business license will be revoked forever and all named owners and corporate officers will be forever barred from owning or operating a company again. Simple, this one rule would end that issues once and for all.



With that said, my previous post comes into play. How can you expect an US Corp to live with this rule when competing against a company that employs slave labor 30 minutes south in a foreign country. You Cannot, again why Free Trade agreements are unfair and unjust to the USA.

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Life was good
Message #298 - 08/24/10 01:32 AM

A problem that has been allowed to develop for so many years can not be solved overnight. I, for one, do not want to have to carry my passport or birth certificate with me at all times to prove I am an American citizen. The law passed in Arizona, and temporarily stopped from being implemented, by the Obama administration, would have required just that because these are the only documents that can prove citizenship.

This is a complete distortion of the law and actually is a regurgitation of the opposition of the law. The law is almost identical to US law which requires all non-residence to carry "The Papers" at all times. My friend, I travel all over the world, guess what, I am told every country I enter to make sure I have my passport with me at all times. None of this is Nazi Germany tactics, it is world wide reality. What is happening in Arizona is a direct result of not securing the boarder. It is a war on the boarder that has cost over 20,000 lives in 4 years. The war is no spilling into the US causing significant problems for Arizona. They have no choice but to try and stop the assault as the US Gov has refused for several administrations.



The real reason for Arizona illegal problems is simple but most overlook it. During the housing boom in the desert southwest, many many many illegal's were employed in the housing and infrastructure companies. They were paid as day labor and never paid into the system as they have no SSN. Well guess what, the housing bubble burst and all those illegal's were unemployed. Guess what, as they were not in the system to start with they are not receiving any unemployment benefits, they are not even counted in the unemployment numbers. With nothing to do and nowhere to go, they turned to the Hispanic community and became gang members, drug runners and human traffickers, along with thieves and all that is bad when destitute.



I know this may inflame some, but the truth is painful. Arizona now has a large unemployed, unaccounted for population that is ripe for mischief. With there countrymen just a short distant south in a war, surely you can now see the dilemma Arizona is in.

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Life was good
Message #299 - 08/24/10 01:41 AM

I am not willing to give up part of my freedom just to make some people feel that they are doing something even if it is detrimental to them. The idea of ·please show me your papers· anytime a law enforcement officer stops you for even a sobriety roadblock smacks of the Nazi regime.

WOW, every time you get stopped for a sobriety roadblock you have to show drivers license and registration. I guess that smacks of a Nazi regime. The freedom you give up is already being done, why then is asking for identification wrong. If they are in the country legally, they will have appropriate identification. It is the illegal one's that will not. This is a silly argument, we show ID for all kinds of stuff, buying alcohol, unless you look older than dirt such as I, buying cigarettes, banking, credit card use, you name it your pulling out drivers licenses and ID's for all kinds of reasons. To suggest that a police officer cannot take action against someone that cannot prove who they are is silly. If I get stopped or investigated and I cannot prove who I am, I go to the Jail house until I can or they ascertain who I am. What the heck is the argument?

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Life was good
Message #300 - 08/24/10 01:53 AM

An additional comment to LIG about voting: Don·t you remember the thing about taxation without representation? Being a tax paying citizen of the first generation and not being able to vote would be just that. Isn·t that one of the reasons for the revolution?

We can save the causes of the revolution for another history post. However, I am advocating just what I said. first generation would not be citizens, so they would be tax paying immigrants, afforded the full rights of a citizen without the right to vote, and I might also through in without the right to bear arms. Those would be withheld and granted to their children if born in the US, as they would be the first generation citizens of family. That would be the price for immigrating to the US. This is what it will take to get the stinking politics out of this debate. Our congress is not being genuine in this debate as they see more voters, more voters, more voters, and they know the majority are uneducated to our laws and traditions. The upside is their off spring would grow up in this country and have a better understanding of our laws and traditions.

[Virgil Showlion]

PoorandUgly
Message #301 - 08/24/10 12:48 PM

I am on the fence as far as it relates to the idea of implementing a law that prohibits first generation immigrants for not becoming citizens, but for only their children. I understand your arguments for it which it seems cogent to me. However, there are one or two things though.

The federal government is more incompetent and broke now than ever before. I think it would be a very expensive and untimely undertaking unfortunately now to do this let alone competently enforce it. You are assuming and have great faith in its enforcement. I wish I had that same faith as you do. You remember Katrina or BP? Two different disasters for which the federal government was miserably incompetent in protecting its effects on us. There is simply not enough manpower or funds out there to implement this. Even if implemented, it does not necessarily preclude the notion that politics will be greatly reduced thereafter. It possibly may in fact lead to a political bureaucratic nightmare.

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Life was good
Message #302 - 08/24/10 01:21 PM

The federal government is more incompetent and broke now than ever before. I think it would be a very expensive and untimely undertaking unfortunately now to do this let alone competently enforce it.

This would actually cut cost and bureaucracy and enforcement becomes much easier. Simply put, the current system of entry is using a visa, then obtaining a green Card. I am suggesting we stop right there. Once the green card is issued, it be issued as a permanent resident status. (This already exists) At that point nothing further is required. The immigrants live the rest of there lives with a green card. With a permanent resident status you currently have all the rights of citizenship, except the right to vote. That is the current system. The bureaucracy comes into play over turning green card holders into citizens. I would eliminate that completely.



The upside is reduced cost and better identification in this country. Basically if you don't have a green card or birth certificate you would not be allowed to obtain a drivers license. That would go along way with keeping illegal's from voting, driving and working in this country. For those that come to this country for seasonal work, we already have a guest workers program. Leave it in place. This would give law enforcement an easy way for identifying adults in this country. No drivers license, no green card, no other appropriate identification would mean a high likelihood that you are illegal in this country. likewise no green card, no birth certificate, you would not be able to obtain a social security number, which means no job. Any employer hiring illegal's would lose the business privilege for life.



If this was instituted tomorrow, the debate on immigration would completely turn upside down. giving amnesty would just mean providing a green card. No votes in that move, no interest from congress.

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bubblyandblue
Message #303 - 08/24/10 02:22 PM



One point I was trying to make (I do have some problems in formulating ideas-sorry) is that, structurally we have a problem in that, international trade has structurally induced our service economy. That service economy is inefficient in the production of real wealth - manufacturing and producing products that require service. Large corporations have a much greater access to international production that our backbone of small business does not, regardless of the high tech commercials to the contrary. In throwing out the baby with the bath water in our surrender to the free-market mentality, we have thrown out the concept of raising all boats for lowering the water level to the least common denominator - cheap at all costs. We now internally compete with our neighbors by getting the cheapest labor (illegals) forcing competitors to claim "it's the only way we can compete" --- it seems backwards and has eroded our place in the world by supporting governments, economically, that have no interest in our success nor of the global consequences in turning back basic freedoms we have fought for throughout the history of mankind. Although, we pride ourselves on being the beacon-of-light for freedom and the hammer against oppression, our free-market mentality has had a more adverse effect....the lowering of our standards has caused our beacon of light to dim and, if we continue down that path we run the risk of extinguishing that light. Can we not penalize businesses that operate against our common good, or are we to far down the path of dismissing any law that runs counter to achieving short term gains at the expense of long term, and hard won advancements in the human condition.

Another matter. I have spent 3-1/2 years, boots on the ground as a result of Katrina. I may have some pretty stout opinions on the matter but, to some degree I have earned them. Katrina's response, both socially and governmentally failed due to the following: government failed because everything was subsumed into Homeland Security Department, funding for emergency response was likewise funneled up into that huge hole of disorganization and never made it to the ground. Homeland Security was based on a them verses us - top down, militaristic concept that separated "our common defense" from our common "we the people" government and created a huge bureaucracy despite the 9/11 commission findings requiring the contrary. Homeland Security plays to the fears of the American people and not to our common strengths. -Fear caused the social response failure through media outlets showing looting, describing dumb people living in the area etc.- to the exclusion of the reality I saw on the ground - survival and everyone trying to help everyone, good will. - Why call it Homeland security - it sounds a little strange not calling it something like The Department of American Security - either way it is a bait.

Point is, we have seen how lawlessness has played our economy at our Financial TBTF institutions, and how lawlessness has slowly erroded our ability to make a decent wage from the bottom-up. Do we continue down the path of lawlessness in advancement or our Free-Market religion for our Homeland Security?

Sorry for the rant.

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PoorandUgly
Message #304 - 08/24/10 03:10 PM

No votes in that move, no interest from congress.

Okay, I concur that it would be clean, effective and cost efficient overall to just give Green cards to the foreign born immigrants and leave it at that. And it takes out the voting problem or bias as you say. I get that.

But get this. Let us ask ourselves why something like this, if it were so easy and cost effective and beneficial to we, the People, is not occurring in the first place? Ask yourself WHO is standing in the way?

You got to love conflicts of interest. You see, as Americans, we have to not only think of ideas but the 64 billion dollar question is how to successfully get "victorious" in this "representative republic" for carrying them out. Remember the Fed video from my first post?? The ideas were good and seem excellent in theory. EXCEPT it left out at the end of the video the trickiest most difficult part of them all - how to "overcome" the other side in carrying out the best wishes for the greater good of this country. There are other interests that our ideas, if implemented, will not benefit. Hence, they will do all they can to keep the status quo in their favor even if it brings down the country as we know it.

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bubblyandblue
Message #305 - 08/24/10 03:36 PM

Certainly, a huge gap exists when getting the news out. You do have interest groups that are only fronts for large corporations who's interest is at odds with a free society, providing huge sums to interest groups to be heard. I am not a doom and gloomer but, a free-press (not a "free corporate controlled-market" press) was encouraged and subsidized by the public and recognized as a public good long before Market fundamentalism crept-in and I do believe the tilt is critically destructive to the majority having a say in the future course of this country. Just a statement out of the blue ---- All oppressive regimes find it critically important to control the media - propaganda (or control of information) is the most efficient weapon of mass destruction and oppression devised by man. Take that thought and apply it how you would like. I believe we have seen how far out of balance things seem to get and, it is important to note, that politics, law, information and the economy are inextricably connected. Free market economy does not recognize the link but, claims for itself to be the cure of all evils, unencumbered by law, information and politics (the human element) - I think our recent past has demonstrated amply that folly. I can't remember straight-off what the quote was...maybe it was Thomas Jefferson who said something like - The only true defense of our Republic is an informed citizenry.

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trucker 101
Message #306 - 08/24/10 03:47 PM



It appears that the discussion has moved away from the solution to the Greater Depression; although the solution is very difficult it begins with nationalizing the Federal Reserve, we do not need a Ponzi scheme for a central bank. Our monetary system should be asset based on either silver or gold not somebody saying we printed x-number of dollars now you owe us interest. The next step should be to repeal NAFTA, it has been the biggest pillaging any nation in the history of mankind has ever witnessed. With the repeal of NAFTA will come jobs, this will create taxes and take people off of the welfare rolls.

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bubblyandblue
Message #307 - 08/24/10 04:31 PM

NAFTA, from what I understand and have seen since, was a terrible idea motivated by how many jobs would be added to our US economy etc.. Now we see that not only did we get ripped, so did mexico. Mexico had a short bump until cheaper wage countries, aided by our large corporations newly found, unimpeded global mobility, exited the Mexican market - it thus created another migration north from Mexico into this country resulting in our misplaced assupmtion that all we needed was a fence to solve "free-economy" structural issues. Well a lot of those jobs alledgedly shifted to Mexico have since moved-on. I think a new motivator, when figuring out how to structure global trade parameters need to be introduced - I do believe "free - market" mentality has got to be thrown into the dustbin of our collective human endevours or we will continue down the current path. I can not imagine why we do not consider ourselves already in a deflationary spiral hitting up against the inflationary wall of goods distribution and production spearheaded by energy costs.

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PoorandUgly
Message #308 - 08/24/10 04:54 PM

In order to repeal NAFTA, CAFTA etc.., you will have to raise more campaign contributions and money in Washington on a yearly basis than the ABA (American Bankers Association) and oil lobby syndicate does.

Good luck.

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bubblyandblue
Message #309 - 08/24/10 06:33 PM

Well, PoorandUgly, I take from your comment as one solution to our greater financial depression , real campaign finance reform - exclude non human entities (corporations) who exist by law and not by right from influencing the political (human) landscape. Reverse that awful supreme court ruling.

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PoorandUgly
Message #310 - 08/24/10 09:22 PM

Well, PoorandUgly, I take from your comment as one solution to our greater financial depression , real campaign finance reform - exclude non human entities (corporations) who exist by law and not by right from influencing the political (human) landscape. Reverse that awful supreme court ruling.

It will be a cold day in hell before that happens. And just think, this ruling was passed with 20% + real unemployment. Is there something wrong with this picture??? I guess when you put a choke hold on we, the People, the next step is to suffocate them to death.

Back in 2009 as the trend in layoffs was going from 600K back to 450K and the rate went from 10.2% to 9.5%, I knew in my heart that it was not only temporary but that there would unfortunately be a new round of increased cuts and unemployment again in the future (now). There will be more rounds unfortunately. Point is this: when all is said and done, real unemployment will top the records during the depths of the Great Depression by 2013-2015. I figure if real unemployment is around 20% right now, my guess would be 25% -30% + by 2013-2015. I believe this now. Pray I am wrong. Do you hear this anywhere else. No, it is called DENIAL.

What can we do about this? In addition to use of our few patented assets left called the constitution to protect our US worker sovereignty, a radical idea (and upfront costly too unfortunately but badly needed for dividends down the road) would be a giant national space construction -exploration program for building human exploration transports for land-chemical discoveries and constellation colonies around our orbit for stationing. It will bring in a huge variety of different jobs and skill sets and pay back in higher rates of return that can help ameliorate some of the deficits and debt down the road. The money needs to go to something productive that engenders investment rates of return for the greater good of this country (not China's etc...!!!), not down an unproductive selfish bs "wealth effect" arrogant rat hole we call HOUSING.

If we don't get brutally honest and constructive real soon, then America will surely follow the destinies of other once great countries in history before it. I witness that many in fact are willing to let "Rome" burn just so one party can lay blame to another for future power grabs. PATHETIC AND DISGRACEFUL!!!!!!!!!! ALL THESE PEOPLE NEED TO GO TO HELL IF THAT IS HOW THEY FEEL. THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON BETWEEN BOTH PARTIES FOR FAR TOO LONG FORGETTING WHO THEY WORK FOR DAMN IT!!!!!!! THEY SOLD US OUT TO THE EMERGING WORLD FOR A BUCK!!

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Life was good
Message #311 - 08/24/10 10:43 PM



My mostly used and mostly unpopular solution is the vote all incumbents out for the next three elections.



Congress is the only answer to reversing the course we are on. Congress has proven for decades it cannot muster the courage to do what is necessary. Why? The democratic and Republican parties have monopolized the political system. No one gets elected to office (with rare exceptions) without the full funding and backing of those two parties.



We can cry and whine all we want about term limits, but it is like the wizard of Oz, all Dorothy had to do is click her heels three times and she was home. All we have to do is vote them out and whalaa, term limits.



By voting them out for three elections we upset the parties and reduce there influence and power. The argument is voter fraud especially regarding the Diebold machines. Yup no doubt elections have been rigged in some cases. However, if enough folks take independent exit polls and the machine counts are not within a slight margin of error. We revolt at that voting location and demand a paper count.



Without taking back the house of congress, nothing else is possible. It is the only constitutional way.

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AEKara
Message #312 - 08/24/10 11:07 PM



Flat tax at 10% put on every good and service in the US. Zero deductions, Zero income tax.



Blow up the Fed. The free market sets interest rates not them. And congress issues our money.



Send Obama back to school and get people like Ron Paul in there that follow the constitution.



Bring every one of our solders home from every where on earth and put the on the borders to shoot any illegals crossing the border.



Stop all foreign aid.



phase out entitlement programs.



Kill all the class action lawyers to be followed by most brokers and talk show hosts....my personal favorite.



That is good for starters.

[Virgil Showlion]

Jnap
Message #313 - 08/24/10 11:35 PM



I think my point about showing identification was missed. I may have to show identification as to whom I am but I have never had to prove I was an American citizen, upon demand from a local police or state officer. Only, I must repeat only the Federal Government can enforce immigration laws.

The constitution is often sited as being ignored but amendment fourteen of the constitution clearly states that ·NO state shall make or ENFORCE any law that abridges the jurisdiction of the Federal Government·, regarding citizenship.

It is clear that immigration laws shall only be enforced by the Federal Government.

If we ignored this rule then each and every state might come up with their own immigration standards and procedures, just like Arizona has attempted to do.

If a law enforcement officer in Arizona or any state requested proof that I was a US citizen I would have to tell him that he has no jurisdiction in that matter. He might arrest me but I don·t have to prove my citizenship to anyone other than Federal authorities.

Sorry, but identifying myself is not the same as proving citizenship.

By the way I don·t live in Europe but if you like they way things are done there then maybe that is where you should live. I prefer the freedom that exists in the US even if it permits some illegal·s to live here.

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Life was good
Message #314 - 08/25/10 12:36 AM



AEKara



Those may or may not sound like great ideas, but the question is what is the solution and P&U has expanded it to how we get the what done.

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Jnap
Message #315 - 08/25/10 12:38 AM



I want to make a point about competition in a capitalist society.

Seventy percent of out economy is based on small business. Millions of small business owners do not have to adhere to minimum wage, worker compensation or other mandates as it applies to them. I can work as many hours as I like and not have to pay myself minimum wage. I can exclude myself and others in my company from workers compensation laws. As long as I don·t break any environmental, local zoning or professional regulation laws I can do pretty much what I want in conducting my business. Running my business as cheaply as possible has made me competitive. The same is now true worldwide. The US has no monopoly on technology, manufacturing, medicine and other industries like it did after WW2. We now have to compete like never before. In fact the US has promoted the development of other countries so that we can expand trade with them.

Yes, of course, it is undeniable that we have done such a good job at this as to create a large trade deficit. But curtailing trade will only backfire because others will step in and replace us as a trading partner.

You can·t erect barriers to trade and expect to prosper. If we tried to do that so would the rest of the world and there are many countries that can take our place in providing goods and services if we refused to do so at competitive open market prices.

It goes against my grain to acknowledge this fact because I too feel like the American worker is being screwed. Unfortunately, there is no simple solution.

Only the best educated, most productive, innovative and competitive countries are going to thrive in the future; we better be one of them.

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Jnap
Message #316 - 08/25/10 12:45 AM



AEKara, you have taken my breath away with that one.

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Life was good
Message #317 - 08/25/10 01:09 AM

The constitution is often sited as being ignored but amendment fourteen of the constitution clearly states that ·NO state shall make or ENFORCE any law that abridges the jurisdiction of the Federal Government·, regarding citizenship.

Section I, All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States. Nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty or property, without due process of law. Nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.



Please read Amendment 14 section one and tell me where you find the term Federal Government! If you are going to site the constitution and make statements such as "clearly states" please quote the document correctly.



I could write several pages on the history of this amendment, as well as all others, but that is much more than this board is for. But I will add that this is one of three, 13th, 14th, and 15th, amendments that were a direct result of the Civil war.

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PoorandUgly
Message #318 - 08/25/10 01:18 PM

Speaking of Civil War, Life, I wouldn't unfortunately be surprised in time if there is another "Civil War" and just like other wars we simply add a roman numeral to the end of it in the history books. Remember, the war in 1914-1918 was supposed to be, considered and called THE WAR TO END ALL WARS or THE GREAT WAR. And what did the history books do in time and what do we call it now??

Tragic, sad and pathetic.

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AEKara
Message #319 - 08/25/10 02:03 PM

AEKara, you have taken my breath away with that one.

Thats what my wife said to me 18 years ago and I got fooled into marring her...

Those may or may not sound like great ideas, but the question is what is the solution and P&U has expanded it to how we get the what done.

Look. You have roughly 42 million people on food stamps. You have 77 million living from paycheck to paycheck. You have kids graduating college with huge debts. The core of the problem is way too much debt at all levels and that is exactly how the elite want it. it doesn't take a genius to figure out we can't run trillion dollar deficits at the Federal level or buying a house way out of whack with what you make at a personal level. Personal responsibility and spending restrain MUST be made at all levels in our society to get back where we were 50 years ago. And doing that in the beginning its going to be a lot worse before it gets better. Question is do we have the same "fabric" in us as our grandparents to work hard and build for the future or rather we just want instant results?

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PoorandUgly
Message #320 - 08/25/10 02:22 PM

Question is do we have the same "fabric" in us as our grandparents to work hard and build for the future or rather we just want instant results?

Uh oh. Please, let's not get started again on the generational discussion lol. (See few pages back in this thread for more details.)

More importantly, I do concur "restraint" is needed now more than ever (we needed it 8-10 years ago!!), but for the economy at large it will be a no-win situation b/c spending and investment powers an economy. Yet, many "participants" are truly insolvent. You see, mucho debt destruction still needs to occur to clean the fat, corrupted system out but Uncle Ben doesn't believe in this "tough love" for the American economy. He believes in adding more debt on top of existing debt, hence keeping us all slaves forever. The more he spins it up the more necessary it is to have the "Mega Paradox of Thrift" (Savings, Conservation, Less spending, More risk aversion, Less confidence in trust of system...) The elites talk a good game when they say they want more risk taking or entrepreneurship. In fact, their actions produce the opposite of effect. Can you say Bailout Mania of 2008??

In fact, if Uncle Ben really understood and cared about Economics 101, it is SAVERS who are the true bankers of America. It is their hard earned funds that, via proper market forces, are allocated to productive investments deserving attraction of that capital for future higher rates of return. But no, the Fed and its conduits of money center banks are impediments to this process and are parasites diverting and draining funds away from the once powerful and now becoming extinct middle class Americana. Because guess what, the elites don't give a rat's behind about you and me at the end of the day. In biology, there are 3 basic relationships between a host organism and the subject organism: 1Mutualistic (both benefit), 2.Symbiotic (both are neutral), and 3. Parasitic (one benefits at expense of other). Which relationship exists between people vs. elites now???

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N. Cognito
Message #321 - 08/25/10 02:37 PM

It is clear that immigration laws shall only be enforced by the Federal Government.

I take that statement as your personal opinion based on emotion and not law because here is what the courts have ruled in the past:



In 1983, the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit concluded, in Gonzales v. City of Peoria, 722 F.2d 468, that, ·Although the regulation of immigration is unquestionably an exclusive federal power, it is clear that this power does not preempt every state activity affecting aliens.· Rather, when ·state enforcement activities do not impair federal regulatory interests concurrent enforcement is authorized.· The Court accordingly held ·that federal law does not preclude local enforcement of the criminal provisions· of federal immigration law.



In 1984, the United States Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit likewise ruled, in United States v. Salinas-Calderon, that · state trooper has general investigatory authority to inquire into possible immigration violations.·

Fifteen years later, in 1999, the United States Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit reaffirmed its position, in United States v. Vasquez-Alvarez, 176 F.3rd 1294, stating, ·this court has long held that state and local law enforcement officers are empowered to arrest for violations of federal law, as long as such arrest is authorized by state law.·



In 2001, the United States Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit ruled again, in United States v. Santana-Garcia, 264 F.3rd 1188, ·that state law enforcement officers within the Tenth Circuit ·have the general authority to investigate and make arrests for violations of federal immigration laws,· and that federal law as currently written does nothing ·to displace . . . state or local authority to arrest individuals violating federal immigration laws.·



In 2002, the United States Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit held, in United States v. Favela-Favela, 41 Fed. Appx. 185, that a state trooper did not violate the defendant·s rights by asking questions about his immigration status, after pulling the defendant over for a traffic violation and noticing there were 20 people in the van the defendant was driving.



In 2005, the United States Supreme Court held, in Muehler v. Mena, 544 U.S. 93, that police officers who handcuffed a gang member while they executed a search warrant for weapons, did not violate her rights by questioning her about her immigration status. The Court explained, ·Even when officers have no basis for suspecting a particular individual, they may generally ask questions of that individual; ask to examine the individual's identification; and request consent to search his or her luggage."



In 2008, the United States District Court for the District of New Jersey concluded, in Rojas v. City of New Brunswick, 2008 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 57974, that, ·As a general matter, state and local law enforcement officers are not precluded from enforcing federal statutes. Where state enforcement activities do not impair federal regulatory interests concurrent enforcement activity is authorized.· The Court accordingly held that a city and its police department had authority to investigate and arrest people for possible violations of federal immigration laws.

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bubblyandblue
Message #322 - 08/25/10 02:46 PM



Thank you N. Cognito for breaking up some circular arguments. I hope to see more of your informed analysis - I know it's tough with time constraints and making a living.

Thanks again

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N. Cognito
Message #323 - 08/25/10 04:56 PM



PoorandUgly, sorry for going off point with my quoted cases of law. Although you have generated a good debate to possible solutions of the greater depression, I believe (IMO) the more apropos question would be; what are you doing for your family to mitigate the effects of the greater depression?

Trying to change the inevitable is an act of futility. I enjoy reading those who advocate voting the incumbents out, abolishing the FED, or imposing a flat tax. But even if you solved one of our governmental/societal problems, you still have the latent consequences of the action. For example: (and this is very simplistic) passing a flat tax would put around 140,000 IRS personnel in the unemployment lines. Not to mention the tax lawyers (which I wholeheartedly support being unemployed), tax accountants, tax preparers, etc. The unions will never let it happen. Imo, we will have both an income tax AND a European style VAT within the next four years.

With over 50 percent of the American population receiving some form of government funds and the remainder too interested in reality TV (our modern Roman Circus Maximus); you can forget voting everyone out of congress. Why do we have a budget deficit if both parties are against the ever increasing debt? When do we win the wars on drugs, poverty, crime, illiteracy, etc.? What is our withdrawal strategy? There is none, because there·s money to be spent and made on both sides of congress (not to mention big business with their hands out). Besides, most bills are written by lobbyists or congressional aides, but then I digress.

There have been political scandals over the ages, Teapot Dome comes to mind (not that I·m showing my age), and there will continue to be scandals of graft and corruption, now and in the future. Although in the future, I believe you can have the cash found in the freezer and STILL be re-elected.

I don·t see myself with a D&G, bunker type mentality but as a realist. I learned years ago from a wise mentor to only be concerned with issues that I have direct control. Let me redirect; although I have no control over animal abuse by others, I still donate to shelters and advocate responsible pet ownership. It·s largely the government, financial institutes, schools, etc. (and my wife) that I have no control over.

I·ve spent the last twenty years positioning myself to be self-reliant in the financial, personal security and educational aspects of life.

What have I done for my family to mitigate the effects of the greater depression? Depending on the severity of the depression, I have Plan A, Plan B, or Plan C.

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bubblyandblue
Message #324 - 08/25/10 05:40 PM

I am with you N Cognito. My personal plan has worked, I have no mortgage on my house - free and clear, just pay taxes and I work from my house - although I travel regarding work extensively. My reserves are in cash and I have fund to play with but, it's a more liquid position and of course retirement savings. It took a long time to get to this point with a lot of upsets and unplanned but, that's life. My heart goes out to similar people who endure this big upset - ((caused my massive fraud (in my book)) - who hadn't the time to developed security before being ripped-off by the financial elite, corporatism, oligarchy or what ever unholy description one might use.

[Virgil Showlion]

Jnap
Message #325 - 08/26/10 12:11 AM



No one said that states can not investigate a persons citizenship. What the states can not do is deport anyone that is deemed undocumented. They can investigate all they want but they do not have the power to deport ..... period. In the end all they can do is turn the person over to Federal authorities.

And that is the way it must be or some a,,hole would attempt to deport people without due process of Federal law.

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Jnap
Message #326 - 08/26/10 12:16 AM

If I was suspected of being undocumented and was requested to prove my citizenship to anyone other than Federal authorities I would decline. I we give into that kind of bullsh*t the next thing you know we will have to prove we are innocent of anything some prosecutor thinks we have done illegally. Screw them it is their job to prove we are guilty not our job to prove we are innocent.

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Life was good
Message #327 - 08/26/10 12:08 PM

PoorandUgly, sorry for going off point with my quoted cases of law. Although you have generated a good debate to possible solutions of the greater depression, I believe (IMO) the more apropos question would be; what are you doing for your family to mitigate the effects of the greater depression?

Why not start another discussion about personally mitigating effects of the depression.



This discussion, I thought was to the bigger scale of what the US had to do to change course. Maybe I strayed and convinced myself that was the purpose of this discussion.



Some of us have given the oath several times in our lives and swore to uphold and defend the constitution against all enemies foreign or domestic. Therefore, personal sacrifices most be made for the greater cause of preservation of the US Constitution. Now, I am sure that is lame to some on this board. However, I believe if we do not save the union, then my grand children have little to no chance of a prosperous future.



Previously I stated my top agenda items for discussion. All would save money and would allow for cutting federal spending. This board is not the only place I share such ideas. Believe me, my congressional representation hears it on a very regular basis.

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N. Cognito
Message #328 - 08/26/10 03:35 PM

The idea of ·please show me your papers· anytime a law enforcement officer stops you for even a sobriety roadblock smacks of the Nazi regime.

I suppose you have a real problem during a traffic stop when asked to produce your vehicle registration ·papers·, proof of insurance ·papers·, and your privilege to drive ·papers· (driver·s license). Do you call the police officer a ·brown shirt· or ask which branch of the Gestapo he·s assigned?

Screw them it is their job to prove we are guilty not our job to prove we are innocent.

With the IRS you are guilty until you prove you·re innocent.

Jsnap · I have no argument with you and won·t attempt to debate law concerning your circular logic between postings 313, 325, and 326 but I do like to point out the inconsistencies.



Bubblyandblue · it is unfortunate that not all can be in our self-reliant situation. My prime objective is to take care of me, mine, and the neighbors (whatever I have to spare).



Life was good · although I don·t disagree with your statement on actions that need taken to change the course the US is heading, please explain in more detail how we can ·save the union.· When congress can·t pass a bill to audit the FED, what hope do we have to abolish the institution? You have no control over the other 49 states and who they elect, so the same crooks are re-elected. When a different party takes political control the only hope and change is the rearrangement of deck chairs.

I commend you on your effort in staying politically active. I too, had sworn an oath in the past to uphold the constitution, even to the point twenty years ago of civil disobedience, jail time, and involvement in case law research argued up to the Supreme Court. But the dam has broken and all the regulations, laws, or calls to your representative will not hold the water back. It·s time to move the furniture upstairs.

To paraphrase what my friend and political satirist P.J. O·Rourke once wrote · a democrat will fiddle while Rome burns and a republican will burn Rome and then fiddle.

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Falling Sky - Not
Message #329 - 08/26/10 04:42 PM

please explain in more detail how we can ·save the union.· When congress can·t pass a bill to audit the FED, what hope do we have to abolish the institution? You have no control over the other 49 states and who they elect, so the same crooks are re-elected. When a different party takes political control the only hope and change is the rearrangement of deck chairs.

It is a sad day when one comes to the realization that the only hope for America is the coming Revolution - What is frightening is that you cannot control the out come or the consequences - but the consequences of not taking action is not acceptable either. Hope and Fear are practically one in the same. Those in power are powerless to change the monster they have created , the best they can hope for is to try and appease the Beast for awhile in hopes of calming the citizenry but in the end their attempts will be futile. America has now reached the historical age of a new civilization before it starts it decline. We are well into the decline and it will only pick up speed from here.

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PoorandUgly
Message #330 - 08/26/10 05:29 PM

This discussion, I thought was to the bigger scale of what the US had to do to change course. Maybe I strayed and convinced myself that was the purpose of this discussion.

You are correct. This discussion was about the fate of us as a country, economically, politically, and sociologically as well. Depressions are a byproduct of excessive malfunctioning of the web of one or more of these facets anyway. There is not enough real down to the core discussion on how to accept the situation and if possible hasten real solution(s).

Some may think it is better if there was a separate discussion of what you should do personally. That is fine. Personally, for me, aside from wealth preservation, I will leave what I plan to do aside as I do not know just yet. Move to Canada? Australia? I don't know how or what personally my plans are. If all of you want to constructively share your plans on here or start another thread geared towards such, by all means. It is all welcome on here though. We will all learn something new (hopefully) as each day progresses.

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PoorandUgly
Message #331 - 08/26/10 05:38 PM

It is a sad day when one comes to the realization that the only hope for America is the coming Revolution - What is frightening is that you cannot control the out come or the consequences - but the consequences of not taking action is not acceptable either. Hope and Fear are practically one in the same. Those in power are powerless to change the monster they have created ,

Before (last several months to 2 years, say since new President came into office), I had "hope" that regardless of party, new blood would genuinely fix our long term problems. Because our long term problems from Bush now under Obama have been exacerbated, my faith in current government is scarily low. Personally imho, if economy continues to get worse under not only election of 2010 but election of 2012 thereafter (regardless of party in power), some sort of Revolution will be so much more palatable and likely. I hope I am wrong. But you can see that citizens are losing patience. There is just no vision and representative, non-monetary leadership for We, the People anymore.

And one other thing. This downturn was long overdue, Falling. You see, you mentioned "appeasement". The fact is back after the tech bust of 2000-2002, the Fed and others needed to "appease" and mollify the masses with another morphine bubble called housing. Investors lost a lot from the dot com/tech bust and wanted to get "even". The bonanza in housing and cheap credit for related consumption based on the housing ATM was that appeasement. They didn't want to let the ugly stepchild of deflation rear its ugly head then. Unfortunately, it is now an 8-headed monster or BEAST. If we were just honest with our problems back then and let some of the debt implode or deflate, it would not be a "cancer" now.

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PoorandUgly
Message #332 - 08/26/10 05:57 PM

With over 50 percent of the American population receiving some form of government funds and the remainder too interested in reality TV (our modern Roman Circus Maximus);

Wrong InCognito. Reality TV is not our modern Roman Circus Maximus. The stock market is!!

Actually a better metaphor would be that our stock market is our modern day Roman colliseum, all of us either participating or viewing in the "games". Now who is giving the thumbs down?? I guess I will just have to kiss my arse good bye.

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PoorandUgly
Message #333 - 08/26/10 06:08 PM

One other thing I would add to the question of what should or are you doing personally to prepare. Like I said, I am not sure what my exact plans are. But more so, the plan must abide by this: staying liquid, flexible, and mobile because you want to be nimble and ready for when and where you may or will be better off to thrive in the future. Some people take it to the tenth degree and move to Singapore or China lol. Been to China and it is nice but it not my thing to move there permanently. Although the very long term future is there and not here. All this is just my opinion though as far as plans go. Feel free to disagree and share yours if you want.

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N. Cognito
Message #334 - 08/26/10 06:27 PM



Although I gave up on Congress years ago, I still held a glimmer of hope for the judiciary; until Indiana State Police Pension Trust v. Chrysler LLC

During bankruptcy, the first lien lenders of Chrysler refused to waive their secured rights without full payment. Instead of reorganizing under a Chapter 11 plan, the Treasury devised a scheme for Chrysler to simply sell its assets free of all secured interests to a shell company, the New Chrysler. But the deal required bondholders to write off more than 70% of the $6.9bn they were owed by Chrysler.

The Supreme Court granted certiorari, vacated the judgment of the Second Circuit, and then dismissed the appeal as moot. Why not simply deny certiorari based on being moot? The reason I question motives: certiorari isn't granted to the vast majority of appeals that are moot once they reach the Supreme Court. This leaves the process and decision of the appellate court intact. I continue to believe the courts acted egregiously by taking away the traditional rights held by secured creditors all in the name of government expediency.

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PoorandUgly
Message #335 - 08/26/10 06:38 PM

I continue to believe the courts acted egregiously by taking away the traditional rights held by secured creditors all in the name of government expediency.

You shouldn't be surprised by that. Many people and companies' with debts, especially in this day and age, can never be expected to pay back what they owe anymore. It is simply fashionable and more convenient to either 1. default 2. get a bailout or 3. roll over and play fetch for another fine day.

And all the Einsteins cannot figure out why lending and borrowing are drying up. Hey brainiacs (now in Europe as well), YOU CANNOT CURE A SOLVENCY CRISIS WITH A LIQUIDITY ONE.

Sorry to rant N. Cognito. I tend to digress on tangents at times.

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N. Cognito
Message #336 - 08/26/10 07:09 PM



PoorandUgly - not surprised by the lower court decisions but disappointed by the Supreme Court.