Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 24, 2013 15:54:06 GMT -5
Those are very valid points and I do think that in some circumstances it should be implemented. Like when decisions are made on in-person contact. But when you have a group of folks that underperform on a standard test then claim they should be moved ahead of those that scored better in the name of equality then something is out of whack (Chicago, Boston, and Philly firefighters exams come to mind - there was no way to know the race of the applicants by which circles they penciled in). Same for college entrance exams - the grading machine can't tell what race you are (at least before you were required to provide the information) so I'm not sure how that works... The part of the exams that would make it biased isn't the grading it is the way the test is written. If someone doesn't learn the things on the test it is almost impossible for them to do well on it. Or if the questions are written in such a way that they have never heard before it would be incredibly hard in a short time given on the test to figure out what they menat. I could know something better than anyone else but if the test on it was half in English and half in Chinese I would test like an idiot in that subject. Everyone always rails against "teaching to the test" but there is a reason why billions are spent on SAT test prep. People who take SAT test prep courses do much better than the ones who don't. Of course rich kids are going to take thos course more than poor one since they cost thousands of dollars to take. IMO affirmative action for things like college entrance is about giving someone a chance to prove they can do something that they never had the chance to do before, as opposed to just accepting the people who have. Based on what you just said, affirmative action should be based on socioeconomic status, not the color of ones skin. White kids can be just as poor as black or Latino.
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 24, 2013 15:56:34 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have risen above a poor uprbringing either. It's one thing to be trying to better yourself without people helping you - it's another to try to better yourself with people actively trying to sabotage you. You aren't giving yourself enough credit. I was raised by a drunk in government housing. If I could rise above it, so could you.
|
|
Phoenix84
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 17, 2011 21:42:35 GMT -5
Posts: 10,056
|
Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 24, 2013 16:03:09 GMT -5
How else would we fight racial inequality? I don't think affirmative action is a perfect system, but I'm drawing a blank at what could be fairer AND more effective. There are still a depressing number of people (many of them in hiring roles, and some of whom post on this forum) who believe that women and minorities simply aren't as good/capable as white men. And things like the lawsuit against dollar general and BMW certainly aren't helping change that.... I am a female and I would be highly offended if I got a job or a promotion over a white guy just because I'm a "minority". I only want what a i earn I life....to me, affirmative action is a slap in the face to everyone. To me, because it means that some liberal thinks I can't make it in my own (I could and I did). And it is a slap in the face to the white guys who lose out to a less qualifies candidate because they have a different skin color or have a vagina. I would quit a job if I found out I was hired for my vag and not my brain.... That's how I always felt about it. The people who should be most upset about affirmative action are the people who the policies are supposedly trying to help, the successful minorities. Because if a minority or woman is in a organization with affirmative action policies, it always raises the question as to wheather that minority or woman is where they are because they are qualified, or because of the affirmative action policy.
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 24, 2013 16:05:29 GMT -5
And things like the lawsuit against dollar general and BMW certainly aren't helping change that.... I am a female and I would be highly offended if I got a job or a promotion over a white guy just because I'm a "minority". I only want what a i earn I life....to me, affirmative action is a slap in the face to everyone. To me, because it means that some liberal thinks I can't make it in my own (I could and I did). And it is a slap in the face to the white guys who lose out to a less qualifies candidate because they have a different skin color or have a vagina. I would quit a job if I found out I was hired for my vag and not my brain.... That's how I always felt about it. The people who should be most upset about affirmative action are the people who the policies are supposedly trying to help, the successful minorities. Because if a minority or woman is in a organization with affirmative action policies, it always raises the question as to wheather that minority or woman is where they are because they are qualified, or because of the affirmative action policy. Exaxtly....when we all know I e slept my way to the top:-p
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 6, 2024 12:32:21 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2013 20:47:32 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have risen above a poor uprbringing either. It's one thing to be trying to better yourself without people helping you - it's another to try to better yourself with people actively trying to sabotage you. You aren't giving yourself enough credit. I was raised by a drunk in government housing. If I could rise above it, so could you. Thanks but you are way more tenacious than I am! Although maybe if I was brought up poor I would have picked a higher paying job, lol! I guess it's one of those things where I'm glad I'll never know how I would have done. And even though we disagree on a lot of things, I really admire what you've made of your life. You know, minus the whole hair band love.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 6, 2024 12:32:21 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2013 20:55:01 GMT -5
The way to fix all this is to re-examine the education systems of classically poor areas, especially those in the inner city. And have plenty of motivational role models to help steer these kids in the right direction. As I said, more charter/magnate schools, more money to poor public schools so they can get better materials and hire good teachers, more Boys and Girls Clubs. But I can't for the life of me figure out how to pay for it all.
|
|
formerroomate99
Junior Associate
Joined: Sept 12, 2011 13:33:12 GMT -5
Posts: 7,381
|
Post by formerroomate99 on Jun 25, 2013 12:33:46 GMT -5
The way to fix all this is to re-examine the education systems of classically poor areas, especially those in the inner city. And have plenty of motivational role models to help steer these kids in the right direction. As I said, more charter/magnate schools, more money to poor public schools so they can get better materials and hire good teachers, more Boys and Girls Clubs. But I can't for the life of me figure out how to pay for it all. I think it would make sense to just keep the educational funding at the state level instead of tying it to property taxes. Of course, that won't fix issues with the parents or corruption/incompetence with the school administration, but at least they are starting at the same point funding wise.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 6, 2024 12:32:21 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 15:19:19 GMT -5
Miss Tequila and MoneyJenny I agree with both of you and yes I hate the stigma of affirmative action and doubting if I got promoted to meet a quota or I truly earned it.
But you are missing the major part: without affirmative action you wouldn't have been given a chance to even prove you could to the Job or compete against your white male counterparts.
How many women were in medical school or law school prior to affirmative action? How many blacks? How many were given a chance to actually prove they could do the Job or heck they could do it better?
How women lawyers were hired as legal secretaries or women only expected to be nurses? Or black doctors had practice on their own race because they were not good enough for the white man?
The most poignant thing I read was from a "black doctor" saying how he had to watch a woman die during childbirth because her husband would not let her be touch by a black doctor.
So yes while I hate the stigma and what others might thing when I enter the room, I cannot deny that it gave others like me a chance to prove that we are just as competent, intelligent, hard working and we got this!
As we say in creole: rayi chien an men di Dan li Blanche.
Translation: you might hate the dog but you have to admit his teeth are white.
So with all the bad affirmative action might represent, don't forget all the good it has done.
|
|
Politically_Incorrect12
Senior Member
With a little faith, we can move a mountain; with a little help, we can change the world.
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 20:42:13 GMT -5
Posts: 3,763
|
Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jun 25, 2013 15:26:46 GMT -5
I think educational situations can easily turn into circular arguments. I had a discussion with a co-worker a while back about if better schools (which are usually in more affluent areas) are better because of the money in an area or is it because people who live in those areas often have higher education levels (which often leads to higher income levels) and expect the same of their kids? Parents with a higher education are also more likley to be able to help their kids with homework, whereas parents with lower educational levels may not be able to offer the same help. The kids in turn are surrounded by other kids who have the final goal of going to college.
However, in less affluent areas, there are often people with lower educational levels, who may or may not be pushing the idea of college as much to their kids. At the same time, in poorer schools (socio-economically and often academically) these kids may not be surrounded by as many peers looking to go to college. Even if after-school programs are offered in these areas to give these kids role models who went to college and to help them with education, as well as offer alternatives in what to do after school (which I think a legitimate argument can be made to offer these programs), there is still the need to address the underlying issue of what happens outside of school. If an area has a high drop-out rate, and there is no stigma attached to it, just getting a high school diploma may be considered an accomplishment.
So is the issue money or is it more related to the value placed on education? It is not an either/or question, as it is probably related to many factors...just making the point that money is not the only factor. I think it more socio-economic related than race related, although people rarely want to focus on the poor white rural areas.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,910
|
Post by zibazinski on Jun 25, 2013 15:27:08 GMT -5
It's been a good thing and a bad thing. I know people who think some races are smarter than others, perhaps they are but perhaps they aren't. So if I just trust a doctor based on race because they're supposed to be smart, then does that make me stupid or smart? So if I'm concerned that someone got into med school not based on brains but a quota and don't want them to operate on me, does that make me smart or stupid? Trouble with quotas is a trust factor. How do I know I got a smart one or one they had to let in?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 6, 2024 12:32:21 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 15:30:22 GMT -5
And since you are both females look at all the countries or cultures were women are considered second class...
I bet you we can find women just as smart/capable if not more than their male counterparts. But how can they prove it when no one care to give them a chance or an occasion to prove it? How can they discover the next big thing, do surgeries that will save lives or Build the next Apple if everyone around them including their parents believe nurturing that intelligence would be a waste since they are female?
My mom older sister now in her 70's never went to school, learn how to read or write because when she was born in Haiti her father thought it would be a waste of money yet sent her older and younger brother. As a woman she was expected to just get a husband and have kids.
Yet my mom that is 20 years younger went to school, college, became an RN and now is an administrator earning over 6 figures while my aunt was and remain a housewife depending on her husband. See what a 20 years difference does and a complete overhaul to educate young women?
And my aunt is witty, smart, driven: she built her husband meager wages into a fortune, own 5 rental homes in Haiti and run them well with the help of those more educated. Imagine what she could have accomplished if she went to School/ college and not limited by her sex.
|
|
Politically_Incorrect12
Senior Member
With a little faith, we can move a mountain; with a little help, we can change the world.
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 20:42:13 GMT -5
Posts: 3,763
|
Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jun 25, 2013 15:37:36 GMT -5
Miss Tequila and MoneyJenny I agree with both of you and yes I hate the stigma of affirmative action and doubting if I got promoted to meet a quota or I truly earned it. But you are missing the major part: without affirmative action you wouldn't have been given a chance to even prove you could to the Job or compete against your white male counterparts. How many women were in medical school or law school prior to affirmative action? How many blacks? How many were given a chance to actually prove they could do the Job or heck they could do it better? How women lawyers were hired as legal secretaries or women only expected to be nurses? Or black doctors had practice on their own race because they were not good enough for the white man? The most poignant thing I read was from a "black doctor" saying how he had to watch a woman die during childbirth because her husband would not let her be touch by a black doctor. So yes while I hate the stigma and what others might thing when I enter the room, I cannot deny that it gave others like me a chance to prove that we are just as competent, intelligent, hard working and we got this! As we say in creole: rayi chien an men di Dan li Blanche. Translation: you might hate the dog but you have to admit his teeth are white. So with all the bad affirmative action might represent, don't forget all the good it has done. But do you also understand how those of us today don't want to be treated as if it's still 40+ years ago or how we don't want our children to be held responsible for it either? I really hope there will come a day when people look at hiring and firing a person, they will not have to think "could this be perceived as discriminatory in any way?" Right now people can not just look at the person, whether they like it or not, they have to look at the skin color, gender, sexual orientation, age, and anything else that makes a person a "protected class." Part of what makes a conversation about discrimination so difficult is distiguishing real vs. perceived discrimination. There are people who face real discrimination and there are people who think anytime something doesn't work in their favor, it must be due to discrimination. In the days where "white males" were considered the protected class as part of an unwritten law, people complained about the unfairness of it. I don't understand why people are surprised that people would complain about federal laws which protect every class except young white heterosexual males. One of the main issues with the law is that while it was a good thing at the time, times and people change, and some of the people it benefits the most don't want to admit that times and people change. Politically correct bigotry is still bigotry IMO.
|
|
michelyn8
Familiar Member
Joined: Jul 25, 2012 6:48:24 GMT -5
Posts: 926
|
Post by michelyn8 on Jun 25, 2013 15:44:18 GMT -5
And since you are both females look at all the countries or cultures were women are considered second class... I bet you we can find women just as smart/capable if not more than their male counterparts. But how can they prove it when no one care to give them a chance or an occasion to prove it? How can they discover the next big thing, do surgeries that will save lives or Build the next Apple if everyone around them including their parents believe nurturing that intelligence would be a waste since they are female? My mom older sister now in her 70's never went to school, learn how to read or write because when she was born in Haiti her father thought it would be a waste of money yet sent her older and younger brother. As a woman she was expected to just get a husband and have kids. Yet my mom that is 20 years younger went to school, college, became an RN and now is an administrator earning over 6 figures while my aunt was and remain a housewife depending on her husband. See what a 20 years difference does and a complete overhaul to educate young women? And my aunt is witty, smart, driven: she built her husband meager wages into a fortune, own 5 rental homes in Haiti and run them well with the help of those more educated. Imagine what she could have accomplished if she went to School/ college and not limited by her sex. Carl, I'm curious of whether your aunt has ever learned to read/write or has she just depended on other for those tasks? I ask because my grandfather went through life with no more than a 3rd grade education. I don't know why he never went any further and he's no longer with us for me to ask. However, when he reached his mid-70's, maybe early 80's he decided he wanted to learn to read and went to a literacy program did just that.
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 25, 2013 15:49:43 GMT -5
Miss Tequila and MoneyJenny I agree with both of you and yes I hate the stigma of affirmative action and doubting if I got promoted to meet a quota or I truly earned it. But you are missing the major part: without affirmative action you wouldn't have been given a chance to even prove you could to the Job or compete against your white male counterparts. How many women were in medical school or law school prior to affirmative action? How many blacks? How many were given a chance to actually prove they could do the Job or heck they could do it better? How women lawyers were hired as legal secretaries or women only expected to be nurses? Or black doctors had practice on their own race because they were not good enough for the white man? The most poignant thing I read was from a "black doctor" saying how he had to watch a woman die during childbirth because her husband would not let her be touch by a black doctor. So yes while I hate the stigma and what others might thing when I enter the room, I cannot deny that it gave others like me a chance to prove that we are just as competent, intelligent, hard working and we got this! As we say in creole: rayi chien an men di Dan li Blanche. Translation: you might hate the dog but you have to admit his teeth are white. So with all the bad affirmative action might represent, don't forget all the good it has done. Years ago I'm sure it did. I believe it is an outdated concept. It is now used to get less qualified individuals above others with more qualifications. I have an issue with any system that puts race or gender ahead of qualifications.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 6, 2024 12:32:21 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 15:54:40 GMT -5
It just seems to be a better way to promote racial equality would be to celebrate the differences between us than focus on getting the window dressing right. I think we will eventually get there. Phoenix That sentence you just spoke is music to my ears.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 6, 2024 12:32:21 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 16:04:29 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have risen above a poor uprbringing either. It's one thing to be trying to better yourself without people helping you - it's another to try to better yourself with people actively trying to sabotage you. You aren't giving yourself enough credit. I was raised by a drunk in government housing. If I could rise above it, so could you. I agree with you. To me if you are physically able and have a will to succeed. You can almost do anything.....
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 6, 2024 12:32:21 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 16:22:11 GMT -5
And things like the lawsuit against dollar general and BMW certainly aren't helping change that.... I am a female and I would be highly offended if I got a job or a promotion over a white guy just because I'm a "minority". I only want what a i earn I life....to me, affirmative action is a slap in the face to everyone. To me, because it means that some liberal thinks I can't make it in my own (I could and I did). And it is a slap in the face to the white guys who lose out to a less qualifies candidate because they have a different skin color or have a vagina. I would quit a job if I found out I was hired for my vag and not my brain.... That's how I always felt about it. The people who should be most upset about affirmative action are the people who the policies are supposedly trying to help, the successful minorities. Because if a minority or woman is in a organization with affirmative action policies, it always raises the question as to wheather that minority or woman is where they are because they are qualified, or because of the affirmative action policy.Put me in one of your category. Although, not everyone is same....Phoenix. People call us perfect minority. That can be very insulting at times.
|
|
formerroomate99
Junior Associate
Joined: Sept 12, 2011 13:33:12 GMT -5
Posts: 7,381
|
Post by formerroomate99 on Jun 25, 2013 16:46:10 GMT -5
Carl, I think we all agree that affirmative action did play a positive role in the past, getting people's foot in the door, getting people used to the idea that certain jobs can be done by someone who isn't a white male. But to say it is still necessary when most of the people in the workforce started their careers well after the barriers to employment were taken away is a something else entirely. I'm 40 years old, halfway through my career, and I don't remember a time when women weren't allowed to be doctors, engineers, executives, etc. Nobody has ever told me I couldn't do something because of my gender. To say I need help to get ahead is patronizing at best.
|
|