ATTN Photographers-What's Wrong With This Picture

[Virgil Showlion]

Jun 17, 2013 20:00:01 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Jun 17, 2013 19:46:56 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

If they could have taken him out of his chair without timing or safety problems, their choice not to is awkward enough to constitute a mistake.

As it stands, his chair is as close to the benches as it can get. In order to not have him isolated, the whole group of students has to move three feet to our right, which voids the intended symmetry and leaves a big lump of bench sticking out. It creates a new problem of where to position the teacher, and the photo quite possibly looks more awkward than what they came up with.

Do I think the parents should have made hay about it? No.

You must have missed my much earlier post.

Jun 17, 2013 15:49:27 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

If he had to remain in the wheelchair, then move the teacher behind him, shift the other children toward him and Photoshop out the empty section of the bleachers.

As for your comment the parents shouldn't have made hay about it: Is one of your children stuck in a wheelchair for the rest of his life? If you do, don't you want him to have as a normal life as possible?

I'd want him to have as moral, as fulfilling, and as happy a life as possible. I don't see how rearranging a class photo accomplishes that.

He seems like a genuinely happy kid in the photo. Possibly he told his parents he felt sad because he couldn't sit closer to the other kids, but I'd bet dollars to doughnuts he couldn't have cared less and that his parents were the ones who made it into an issue. They could just as easily have fawned over the photo and told him what a handsome kid he is, made him feel special, and taught him an important lesson that it doesn't matter if he's sitting a few feet away from the other kids.

As for whether a combination of time, creative positioning, and photoshop could have made a better photo: quite possibly. But as Cereb is fond of saying: If wishes were fishes, the sea would be full.

[Tennesseer]

Virgil-I have to wonder why the boy is leaning so strongly to his right. Is it because he wanted to make sure he was in the picture and that the distance between the closest child to his right to him was wide?

[Deleted]

Jun 17, 2013 20:10:04 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Jun 17, 2013 20:01:02 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Photographer is probably an angry, bitter middle aged dude who hates that his dream of being a photo-journalist covering conflict in the Congo has turned in his biggest struggle of the day is getting a shot where all of his subjects have their finger on the outside of their noses.   And it shows in his work.

A photographer version of 'Bad Santa'?

exactamundo

[Virgil Showlion]

Jun 17, 2013 20:34:43 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Virgil-I have to wonder why the boy is leaning so strongly to his right. Is it because he wanted to make sure he was in the picture and that the distance between the closest child to his right to him was wide?

You're overthinking it.

He's probably leaning over because somebody (presumably a witness to the awkwardness of the photo) instructed him to lean as far to his right as possible in a vain attempt to make the separation less glaring. Ironically, it's the most disconcerting feature of the photo.

I don't know about your photo experiences, but in all of mine, the ways in which kids faced, leaned, etc. were all fully dictated by the teachers and photographers. Kids had no choice in the matter.

[Tennesseer]

Jun 17, 2013 20:47:07 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Jun 17, 2013 20:34:43 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Virgil-I have to wonder why the boy is leaning so strongly to his right. Is it because he wanted to make sure he was in the picture and that the distance between the closest child to his right to him was wide?

You're overthinking it.

He's probably leaning over because somebody (presumably a witness to the awkwardness of the photo) instructed him to lean as far to his right as possible in a vain attempt to make the separation less glaring. Ironically, it's the most disconcerting feature of the photo.

I don't know about your photo experiences, but in all of mine, the ways in which kids faced, leaned, etc. were all fully dictated by the teachers and photographers. Kids had no choice in the matter.

Well there we go then. The photographer sucked at his job.

[Deleted]

Jun 17, 2013 20:47:07 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Jun 17, 2013 20:34:43 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Virgil-I have to wonder why the boy is leaning so strongly to his right. Is it because he wanted to make sure he was in the picture and that the distance between the closest child to his right to him was wide?

You're overthinking it.

He's probably leaning over because somebody (presumably a witness to the awkwardness of the photo) instructed him to lean as far to his right as possible in a vain attempt to make the separation less glaring. Ironically, it's the most disconcerting feature of the photo.

I don't know about your photo experiences, but in all of mine, the ways in which kids faced, leaned, etc. were all fully dictated by the teachers and photographers. Kids had no choice in the matter.

Or he is a weird wheelchair kid and that is just the way his body is tilted.

[Virgil Showlion]

Jun 17, 2013 20:50:10 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Jun 17, 2013 20:47:07 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

You're overthinking it.

He's probably leaning over because somebody (presumably a witness to the awkwardness of the photo) instructed him to lean as far to his right as possible in a vain attempt to make the separation less glaring. Ironically, it's the most disconcerting feature of the photo.

I don't know about your photo experiences, but in all of mine, the ways in which kids faced, leaned, etc. were all fully dictated by the teachers and photographers. Kids had no choice in the matter.

Well there we go then. The photographer sucked at his job.

Still no reason to make hay.

But our difference of opinion there is possibly cultural. Americans tend to complain about bad service more loudly and more often than Canadians. I'm told that service industries are better in the US as a result, but I still can't bring myself to rage at the Subway guy when he runs out of mayo.

[Formerly SK]

That is 100% the photographers fault.  If he/she can't figure out how to compose a picture with the wheelchair kid then he shouldn't be a photographer.  That's like someone working in a gift wrap section of a department store and not knowing how to wrap anything except perfect boxes.  Group photo shoots are always different based on how many people, their sizes, ages, etc.  If they can figure out that the smaller kids should be up front, they can figure out how to include a wheelchair kid.  Seriously, how can the photographer look in in the viewfinder at that potential picture and not see it was crappy?

[973beachbum]

Jun 18, 2013 9:09:58 GMT -5 Formerly SK said:

That is 100% the photographers fault.  If he/she can't figure out how to compose a picture with the wheelchair kid then he shouldn't be a photographer.  That's like someone working in a gift wrap section of a department store and not knowing how to wrap anything except perfect boxes.  Group photo shoots are always different based on how many people, their sizes, ages, etc.  If they can figure out that the smaller kids should be up front, they can figure out how to include a wheelchair kid.  Seriously, how can the photographer look in in the viewfinder at that potential picture and not see it was crappy?

And what were the teacher and his personal aid doing while this was going on, having a coffee clutch?

this person gets paid to take pictures in a very particular way.  They probably don't have liability insurance for things like taking a kid strapped into a wheelchair out of it and sittinghim on a bench.  The photographer is the least culpable person in this not the most.

I know it is so much more rewarding to scream at the first person you see, than to take the time to find out who actually has the authority to do what is needed.

[Deleted]

the photographer is a jackass.

[thyme4change]

They should have done this with him:

[Tennesseer]

Mormon missionaries?

[Formerly SK]

Jun 18, 2013 9:32:00 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

Jun 18, 2013 9:09:58 GMT -5 Formerly SK said:

That is 100% the photographers fault.  If he/she can't figure out how to compose a picture with the wheelchair kid then he shouldn't be a photographer.  That's like someone working in a gift wrap section of a department store and not knowing how to wrap anything except perfect boxes.  Group photo shoots are always different based on how many people, their sizes, ages, etc.  If they can figure out that the smaller kids should be up front, they can figure out how to include a wheelchair kid.  Seriously, how can the photographer look in in the viewfinder at that potential picture and not see it was crappy?

And what were the teacher and his personal aid doing while this was going on, having a coffee clutch?

this person gets paid to take pictures in a very particular way.  They probably don't have liability insurance for things like taking a kid strapped into a wheelchair out of it and sittinghim on a bench.  The photographer is the least culpable person in this not the most.

I know it is so much more rewarding to scream at the first person you see, than to take the time to find out who actually has the authority to do what is needed.

Rewarding to scream?  What?  I'm just pointing out that when a picture is badly composed it is the photographer's fault.  Non-photographers don't have the eye to see composition details - that's why people hire photographers.  If lighting/composition/whatever is bad in a picture, it is because of the photographer.  I've seen loads of family pics done where the people weren't posed well - it's common if you don't understand the artistic side of photography and think all you need to do is press a button.

Now, if the photographer told them "Hey, this looks really bad can we put the kid on the riser so he's more included or move the class closer to the wheelchair" and the school said no, then yeah we can blame the school.  But somehow I doubt that's the case (especially since they solved the problem with a retake).  Most likely, the photographer did the minimum (sit the kid at the end and have him lean in), snapped the pic, and yelled "Next!"  I have friends who do class pictures and I know they make pennies once you factor in their time so probably the guy was in the same situation and just didn't care. 

[goldensam]

Jun 18, 2013 0:32:52 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Jun 17, 2013 20:50:10 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Well there we go then. The photographer sucked at his job.

Still no reason to make hay.

But our difference of opinion there is possibly cultural. Americans tend to complain about bad service more loudly and more often than Canadians. I'm told that service industries are better in the US as a result, but I still can't bring myself to rage at the Subway guy when he runs out of mayo.

Yeah, that's the same 

[michelyn8]

Jun 17, 2013 16:08:49 GMT -5 HoneyBBQ said:

Jun 17, 2013 15:43:20 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

b)  I'm sick of all the outrage by parents over every damn thing

You know, in general I agree with that sentiment, but this is complete and utter horse sh*t.

We had 2 kids in wheelchairs when I was in elementary school a million years ago, and they always went in FRONT, like the goalies. That poor child is already excluded from tons of things. Why something as easily correctable as a photograph?

I don't think they "deliberately" excluded him, but ignorance of exclusion is not a viable excuse.

Like Honey, I had a wheelchair bound classmate in 4th grade.  When I first saw this this morning, I tried to remember what our class photo looked like.  I want to say the front row was in chairs and he was placed at the end but since my parents didn't purchase one that year, I really don't remember. 

To me this was a case of yet another person just going through the ropes and not taking any pride in their work.  Just a couple of minutes of thought by either the teacher or the photographer would have prevent this whole thing.  At least the kids looks happy and seems oblivious to things and from what I read, that was part of what upset the parents and they haven't even shown him the photo.

BTW: I was "kind enough" to share old class pictures on FB much to the delight of my former classmates (who were all appropriately named and tagged) and their teenaged children.  

[Virgil Showlion]

Jun 18, 2013 11:29:38 GMT -5 goldensam said:

Jun 18, 2013 0:32:52 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Still no reason to make hay.

But our difference of opinion there is possibly cultural. Americans tend to complain about bad service more loudly and more often than Canadians. I'm told that service industries are better in the US as a result, but I still can't bring myself to rage at the Subway guy when he runs out of mayo.

Yeah, that's the same 

Magnitude isn't particularly important.

Culturally, Americans complain if they perceive professional incompetence and Canadians tend not to--at least not to the professional.

It's a tendency, not an absolute fact, but it is a strong tendency. And this case with the photographer unable or unwilling to recompose the scene to accommodate an enormous wheelchair seems like it would fall precisely in that gray area where Americans care enough to make hay while Canadians probably wouldn't.

The kid looks happy in the photo. I think he is happy in the photo. The parents are upset because of the symbolism of him being set apart.

Yes, the photo is awkward. No, the offense is not so grave that complaining about it is a valuable use of their time.

[973beachbum]

Jun 18, 2013 10:19:01 GMT -5 Formerly SK said:

Jun 18, 2013 9:32:00 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

And what were the teacher and his personal aid doing while this was going on, having a coffee clutch?

this person gets paid to take pictures in a very particular way.  They probably don't have liability insurance for things like taking a kid strapped into a wheelchair out of it and sittinghim on a bench.  The photographer is the least culpable person in this not the most.

I know it is so much more rewarding to scream at the first person you see, than to take the time to find out who actually has the authority to do what is needed.

Rewarding to scream?  What?  I'm just pointing out that when a picture is badly composed it is the photographer's fault.  Non-photographers don't have the eye to see composition details - that's why people hire photographers.  If lighting/composition/whatever is bad in a picture, it is because of the photographer.  I've seen loads of family pics done where the people weren't posed well - it's common if you don't understand the artistic side of photography and think all you need to do is press a button.

Now, if the photographer told them "Hey, this looks really bad can we put the kid on the riser so he's more included or move the class closer to the wheelchair" and the school said no, then yeah we can blame the school.  But somehow I doubt that's the case (especially since they solved the problem with a retake).  Most likely, the photographer did the minimum (sit the kid at the end and have him lean in), snapped the pic, and yelled "Next!"  I have friends who do class pictures and I know they make pennies once you factor in their time so probably the guy was in the same situation and just didn't care. 

Every school picture I have seen in 40ish years, except HS senior year pics, the person taking the picture has the least to do with anything. the teachers line up the kids in the hall in order of height and come in and send them where they need to go. There have never been any real photographers that I have ever seen like what you are describing in the second paragraph. The pics from lifetouch have been by far the best I have ever seen actually. I have never seen them even touch a kid. I can't imagine them saying lets get that kid out of his wheelchair and put them on a bench.

It didn't look perfect to me but I don't think putting the chair infront of the front row would have looked great either just a different type of strange.  If it was such an easy thing to put the kid on a bench with the aid and teacher's help why didn't they say so when it was being done?  Expecting the person who snaps the photo and writes down the class name isn't ever going to work unless people start paying a lot more for those pics so they can pay them better IMO.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

If you do, don't you want him to have as a normal life as possible?

Of course but this is ONE class photo when the kid is in first/second (?) grade.  There are going to be many more.  I've really messed up if this is going to keep him from ever living a normal life.

It's not something I'd consider worth fight over and definetly wouldn't make my kid a news subject over it.

Bad school photos are a part of life.  The kid hardly looks like he feels abnormal and I highly doubt he's "faking it" for the camera.  You can see in his eyes the kid is a cheerful little fellow.

[Peace Of Mind]

Jun 18, 2013 9:32:00 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

Jun 18, 2013 9:09:58 GMT -5 Formerly SK said:

That is 100% the photographers fault.  If he/she can't figure out how to compose a picture with the wheelchair kid then he shouldn't be a photographer.  That's like someone working in a gift wrap section of a department store and not knowing how to wrap anything except perfect boxes.  Group photo shoots are always different based on how many people, their sizes, ages, etc.  If they can figure out that the smaller kids should be up front, they can figure out how to include a wheelchair kid.  Seriously, how can the photographer look in in the viewfinder at that potential picture and not see it was crappy?

And what were the teacher and his personal aid doing while this was going on, having a coffee clutch?

this person gets paid to take pictures in a very particular way.  They probably don't have liability insurance for things like taking a kid strapped into a wheelchair out of it and sittinghim on a bench.  The photographer is the least culpable person in this not the most.

I know it is so much more rewarding to scream at the first person you see, than to take the time to find out who actually has the authority to do what is needed.

IMO the photographer's job was to take the pictures in a professional way.  It's not the teacher's job to make sure the photographer knew his job or did it right. I'm sure her hands were full keeping the kids quiet, still, in place, their clothes tucked in or on    - whatever, but that was her job during this time.  Not doing the photographer's job.

I'm always surprised what people think teachers are responsible for!  They are so under paid!! 

[thyme4change]

I don't think the teacher was responsible, but she could have put a little thought into it.  There is NO WAY an photographer would have known if it was appropriate to remove this child from the chair.  If that was the best option, it was absolutely the teacher's (aide, caregiver, etc.) duty to inform the photographer.  

Imagine the news article we would be hearing if a Lifetouch photographer had decided to remove a child from a wheelchair and it was inappropriate, and the kid got so much as a splinter from the bench.  Holy hell would break loose, and every person on here would be saying "What on earth was that stupid photographer thinking?  He shouldn't just walk in and start taking kids out of wheelchairs!  What an idiot."  Frankly, if he was going to make a mistake - he made the correct one.

[Deleted]

Jun 18, 2013 12:30:49 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I don't think the teacher was responsible, but she could have put a little thought into it.  There is NO WAY an photographer would have known if it was appropriate to remove this child from the chair.  If that was the best option, it was absolutely the teacher's (aide, caregiver, etc.) duty to inform the photographer.  

Imagine the news article we would be hearing if a Lifetouch photographer had decided to remove a child from a wheelchair and it was inappropriate, and the kid got so much as a splinter from the bench.  Holy hell would break loose, and every person on here would be saying "What on earth was that stupid photographer thinking?  He shouldn't just walk in and start taking kids out of wheelchairs!  What an idiot."  Frankly, if he was going to make a mistake - he made the correct one.

But he could have said "can we make the freaky kid in the wheelchair look less like an outcast?"

[thyme4change]

Yes, he could have.  This is not a single person's fault.

[Deleted]

Jun 18, 2013 12:36:42 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Yes, he could have.  This is not a single person's fault.

Except for the photographer.

[Peace Of Mind]

Poor kid.  Surrounded by morons. 

[973beachbum]

Jun 18, 2013 12:26:14 GMT -5 Peace Of Mind said:

Jun 18, 2013 9:32:00 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

And what were the teacher and his personal aid doing while this was going on, having a coffee clutch?

this person gets paid to take pictures in a very particular way.  They probably don't have liability insurance for things like taking a kid strapped into a wheelchair out of it and sittinghim on a bench.  The photographer is the least culpable person in this not the most.

I know it is so much more rewarding to scream at the first person you see, than to take the time to find out who actually has the authority to do what is needed.

IMO the photographer's job was to take the pictures in a professional way.  It's not the teacher's job to make sure the photographer knew his job or did it right. I'm sure her hands were full keeping the kids quiet, still, in place, their clothes tucked in or on    - whatever, but that  her job during this time.  Not doing the photographer's job.

I'm always surprised what people think teachers are responsible for!  They are so under paid!! 

First of all my kids 4th grade teacher makes $92000 a year.  What is she supposed to make if that is underpaid?

Second that student has a one on one teacher/aid plus the regular classroom teacher.  For those few minutes it is their job to make sure the students are lined up properly and in position for the picture.  The only thing the "photographer" does is make bad jokes and snaps the picture.  Normally with at least one kids eyes shut or looking at their feet. 

[Tennesseer]

The teacher could have stood in the empty space between the other students and the boy in the wheel chair and the shot would still have been balanced (IMHO).

[Peace Of Mind]

Yeah, but $92K in your area is equivalent to what?  about $30K?    I can't see if the kids are sticking their tongues out or blinking but it's still not the teacher's job. 


Oops - I had technical difficulty and then Tenn snuck in there.  But the teacher on the same side of the wheelchair bound child would have really thrown the picture off.  Isn't balance also important in a picture?  The teacher was able to stand behind the front row bench so she was close enough.  Why couldn't the wheelchair be scooched over the same way?  Behind the front row so he looked like he was in the 2nd or 3rd row back?  I can't see that kind of detail the set up has and it's been a few <<cough, cough>> years since I had a school picture taken.  

[thyme4change]

I will fault the photographer for not saying "Hey, teacher, stand on this side" or "Can we put wheelchair boy on the teacher's side?"  I will not fault for the photographer for leaving the kid in the chair.  

[973beachbum]

Jun 18, 2013 12:44:40 GMT -5 Peace Of Mind said:

Yeah, but $92K in your area is equivalent to what?  about $30K?    I can't see if the kids are sticking their tongues out or blinking but it's still not the teacher's job. 


 

We do live in an expensive but it is still a pretty good salary here.  I don't think I know an engineer who makes more unless he owns the company.

I don't actually mind it this year.  The teachers this year were great.  The one last year made $106 and sucked donkey balls.

[Deleted]

Dayum. I gotta get my wife back into public schools.