973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Jun 12, 2013 15:37:51 GMT -5
Here is where I draw teh line...and I'm probably going to get shot by all of y ou liberals (story of my life)...identifying yourself as one sex does not MAKE you that sex. You are still a boy, you still have boy parts, etc. I'm still iffy on the surgery but at least then you are anatomically the other sex though genetically the original sex. I can identify myself as a Victoria's Secrets model...it doesn't make me one I really have to get back to work after this, but since you're bringing this up... What about people who are intersex'd? People born with chromosomal issues. Should we pretend that they are making it up? Or current research that suggests that trans peoples brains develop differently in utero, so bodies and brain are at odds. If you're born with a penis you should live as a man regardless of physical issues that caused the issue? Having lived as close as possible to a person who has transitioned I can say that it isn't something one enters into lightly or just because it will make things easier. The only comparison I can think of is an anorexic who sees a fat person in the mirror regardless of how skinny they are. Trans people feel a certain way despite the incongruous genitals. And, even if it is all in their heathen heads...if it doesn't hurt you to use the pronouns they identify with why wouldn't you? I don't think that is what anyone was saying. thruthfully if most of us are completly honest we don't even care what others do or think most of the time. What has been said is that a person who doesn't have the same sex organs as the one listed on the bathroom door shouldn't use that bathroom, which I know you agreed. I know this makes me selfish but I REALLY wouldn't want to have to try and explain to my ten year old son why someone in the locker room didn't have the same genitals as the rest of them. No matter how hard I tried I know it wouldn't go well.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 12, 2013 15:39:07 GMT -5
Here is where I draw teh line...and I'm probably going to get shot by all of y ou liberals (story of my life)...identifying yourself as one sex does not MAKE you that sex. You are still a boy, you still have boy parts, etc. I'm still iffy on the surgery but at least then you are anatomically the other sex though genetically the original sex. I can identify myself as a Victoria's Secrets model...it doesn't make me one I really have to get back to work after this, but since you're bringing this up... What about people who are intersex'd? People born with chromosomal issues. Should we pretend that they are making it up? Or current research that suggests that trans peoples brains develop differently in utero, so bodies and brain are at odds. If you're born with a penis you should live as a man regardless of physical issues that caused the issue? Having lived as close as possible to a person who has transitioned I can say that it isn't something one enters into lightly or just because it will make things easier. The only comparison I can think of is an anorexic who sees a fat person in the mirror regardless of how skinny they are. Trans people feel a certain way despite the incongruous genitals. And, even if it is all in their heathen heads...if it doesn't hurt you to use the pronouns they identify with why wouldn't you? Going to your comparison about the anorexic (only because you brought it up...not trying to argue)...the anorexic person identifies themselves as fat...does that really make them fat or does it mean that they need psychological help? I'm a live and let live kind of a person (ok, to a point...as long as it doesn't impact me or cost me money and as long as it doesn't involve anyone innocent or unborn babies...ok, I'm kind of judgmental!lol)...I don't care what a person wants to call themselves. In person, I would absolutely respect anyone what someone wanted me to call them, but that doesn't mean that I truly believe that they are a male if they were born female. And that doesn't mena that I would be comfortable in a changing room, bathroom or hotel room with someone that is genetically a male but now identifies as a female. I will admit that I struggle with this issue. I just hope to god I am never personally affected by it.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 12, 2013 15:41:23 GMT -5
When they are in public I probably would just use whatever gender seems to go with what they project. But once they are in the bathroom or changing room it becomes pretty obvious to me. I get what Cawaiu is saying. I also doubt many parents would let their daughter,even if they identified themself as a boy, to use the boys room/locker room. Maybe i'm wrong but i can't see it happening. Here is where I draw teh line...and I'm probably going to get shot by all of y ou liberals (story of my life)...identifying yourself as one sex does not MAKE you that sex. You are still a boy, you still have boy parts, etc. I'm still iffy on the surgery but at least then you are anatomically the other sex though genetically the original sex. I can identify myself as a Victoria's Secrets model...it doesn't make me one You won't get shot at by me. I concur. I can call myself a tree or a dog or a house. But no matter how much I try to become one or how much I may want to be those things, it will never be so. I can understand people don't feel comfortable in their own skin and can sympathize with it. I know it's difficult, but that does not change the facts.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 12, 2013 15:43:19 GMT -5
Here is where I draw teh line...and I'm probably going to get shot by all of y ou liberals (story of my life)...identifying yourself as one sex does not MAKE you that sex. You are still a boy, you still have boy parts, etc. I'm still iffy on the surgery but at least then you are anatomically the other sex though genetically the original sex. I can identify myself as a Victoria's Secrets model...it doesn't make me one You won't get shot at by me. I concur. I can call myself a tree or a dog or a house. But no matter how much I try to become one or how much I may want to be those things, it will never be so. I can understand people don't feel comfortable in their own skin and can sympathize with it. I know it's difficult, but that does not change the facts. To be clear...you could have said "you might not BE a VS model, but you look like one" lol
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 12, 2013 15:45:12 GMT -5
Okay Miss T, you might not actually be a VS model, but that's probably a good thing because the sexiness would be off the charts and you'd cause an entire generation of young boys and men to flunk out of school and lose their jobs.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 12, 2013 15:46:44 GMT -5
Okay Miss T, you might not actually be a VS model, but that's probably a good thing because the sexiness would be off the charts and you'd cause an entire generation of young boys and men to flunk out of school and lose their jobs. LOL! You're good
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 12, 2013 15:54:57 GMT -5
I really have to get back to work after this, but since you're bringing this up... What about people who are intersex'd? People born with chromosomal issues. Should we pretend that they are making it up? Or current research that suggests that trans peoples brains develop differently in utero, so bodies and brain are at odds. If you're born with a penis you should live as a man regardless of physical issues that caused the issue? Having lived as close as possible to a person who has transitioned I can say that it isn't something one enters into lightly or just because it will make things easier. The only comparison I can think of is an anorexic who sees a fat person in the mirror regardless of how skinny they are. Trans people feel a certain way despite the incongruous genitals. And, even if it is all in their heathen heads...if it doesn't hurt you to use the pronouns they identify with why wouldn't you? Going to your comparison about the anorexic (only because you brought it up...not trying to argue)...the anorexic person identifies themselves as fat...does that really make them fat or does it mean that they need psychological help? I'm a live and let live kind of a person (ok, to a point...as long as it doesn't impact me or cost me money and as long as it doesn't involve anyone innocent or unborn babies...ok, I'm kind of judgmental!lol)...I don't care what a person wants to call themselves. In person, I would absolutely respect anyone what someone wanted me to call them, but that doesn't mean that I truly believe that they are a male if they were born female. And that doesn't mena that I would be comfortable in a changing room, bathroom or hotel room with someone that is genetically a male but now identifies as a female. I will admit that I struggle with this issue. I just hope to god I am never personally affected by it. Agreed on the anorexic part-its a bad comparison. there is no way to treat trans people to make their brain match their body. Plus the research shows that this isn't caused from being molested or poor self esteem or something along those lines that therapy might impact, but honest physical incongruities in the brain and chromosomes. Freud can't fix those. I too hope that it isn't something I have to deal with in my own children, although for other reasons.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 12, 2013 15:57:04 GMT -5
I really have to get back to work after this, but since you're bringing this up... What about people who are intersex'd? People born with chromosomal issues. Should we pretend that they are making it up? Or current research that suggests that trans peoples brains develop differently in utero, so bodies and brain are at odds. If you're born with a penis you should live as a man regardless of physical issues that caused the issue? Having lived as close as possible to a person who has transitioned I can say that it isn't something one enters into lightly or just because it will make things easier. The only comparison I can think of is an anorexic who sees a fat person in the mirror regardless of how skinny they are. Trans people feel a certain way despite the incongruous genitals. And, even if it is all in their heathen heads...if it doesn't hurt you to use the pronouns they identify with why wouldn't you? I don't think that is what anyone was saying. thruthfully if most of us are completly honest we don't even care what others do or think most of the time. What has been said is that a person who doesn't have the same sex organs as the one listed on the bathroom door shouldn't use that bathroom, which I know you agreed. I know this makes me selfish but I REALLY wouldn't want to have to try and explain to my ten year old son why someone in the locker room didn't have the same genitals as the rest of them. No matter how hard I tried I know it wouldn't go well. I was responding to phoenixs comment that he will use birth pronouns regardless of preference.
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Jun 12, 2013 15:57:10 GMT -5
Good save Phoenix!!
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 12, 2013 16:00:16 GMT -5
::If you're born with a penis you should live as a man regardless of physical issues that caused the issue? ::
If you're born with a penis, and you still have a penis, you need to follow the rules for "men" because you're a man regardless of what you "consider yourself". Just like if you are a biological woman, you can't walk around topless just because "men can" if it's illegal for women to do so. You don't need to "live as a man/woman", but when the rules state that "men/women" must do specific things, you must do them based on what you actually are, not what you "identify as". You can identify as anything you like, man, woman, dog, baby, alien...but you can't simply start making up your own rules based on what you claim you are and ignoring what you actually are when what you actually are is the relevant factor to the rule.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 12, 2013 16:04:55 GMT -5
::If you're born with a penis you should live as a man regardless of physical issues that caused the issue? :: If you're born with a penis, and you still have a penis, you need to follow the rules for "men" because you're a man regardless of what you "consider yourself". Just like if you are a biological woman, you can't walk around topless just because "men can" if it's illegal for women to do so. You don't need to "live as a man/woman", but when the rules state that "men/women" must do specific things, you must do them based on what you actually are, not what you "identify as". You can identify as anything you like, man, woman, dog, baby, alien...but you can't simply start making up your own rules based on what you claim you are and ignoring what you actually are when what you actually are is the relevant factor to the rule. To be clear...I should put my top on?
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 12, 2013 16:06:55 GMT -5
::If you're born with a penis you should live as a man regardless of physical issues that caused the issue? :: If you're born with a penis, and you still have a penis, you need to follow the rules for "men" because you're a man regardless of what you "consider yourself". Just like if you are a biological woman, you can't walk around topless just because "men can" if it's illegal for women to do so. You don't need to "live as a man/woman", but when the rules state that "men/women" must do specific things, you must do them based on what you actually are, not what you "identify as". You can identify as anything you like, man, woman, dog, baby, alien...but you can't simply start making up your own rules based on what you claim you are and ignoring what you actually are when what you actually are is the relevant factor to the rule. I don't know what you're getting at. What things must I legally do as a cis-gendered female? I already said on the elementary school bathroom I agreed with the school. I know 3 CIS-gendered women who have been harassed for using the women's bathroom. Wrong assumptions because they look butch but very much identify as women. FWIW my Dh runs around topless at the pool any time he feels like it.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 12, 2013 16:08:46 GMT -5
::If you're born with a penis you should live as a man regardless of physical issues that caused the issue? :: If you're born with a penis, and you still have a penis, you need to follow the rules for "men" because you're a man regardless of what you "consider yourself". Just like if you are a biological woman, you can't walk around topless just because "men can" if it's illegal for women to do so. You don't need to "live as a man/woman", but when the rules state that "men/women" must do specific things, you must do them based on what you actually are, not what you "identify as". You can identify as anything you like, man, woman, dog, baby, alien...but you can't simply start making up your own rules based on what you claim you are and ignoring what you actually are when what you actually are is the relevant factor to the rule. I don't know what you're getting at. What things must I legally do as a cis-gendered female? I already said on the elementary school bathroom I agreed with the school. I know 3 CIS-gendered women who have been harassed for using the women's bathroom. Wrong assumptions because they look butch but very much identify as women. FWIW my Dh runs around topless at the pool any time he feels like it. What is CIS-gendered?
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 12, 2013 16:09:36 GMT -5
You identify in the gender you were born in.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 12, 2013 16:15:56 GMT -5
::I don't know what you're getting at. What things must I legally do as a cis-gendered female? I already said on the elementary school bathroom I agreed with the school. ::
It's not always "must", sometimes it's simply "can". So you must wear a top in public in most places I think. You must not marry a woman in some places. You must not use the men's locker room in most establishments. etc.
::Wrong assumptions because they look butch but very much identify as women. ::
Right, but my point is that what you "identify" as isn't really relevant as it relates to rules which are based on what sex you actually are. So while it matters that they are biologically women, it doesn't matter if they identify as women or men, they shoudl still be using the women's restrooms
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2013 16:38:33 GMT -5
I agree that the school handled it as best they could. We had a transgender at work and she (born a he and anatomically a he) used the ladies restroom. I think it's different using a female restroom as we have all stalls vs. The other way around. No one at work had an issue....
No idea what should be done in changing rooms. Yikes.
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