Transgender student sues Maine school

[973beachbum]

I saw this article today and although I feel sorry for the student I feel sorrier for the school admistration.  I can't imagine them making a decision that wouldn't leave someone upset!  And although they are talking about the regular bathroom what happens when they get to the point where they have to totally change clothes for gym in a locker room?  I wouldn't want my daughter to be in a locker room and see a boy changing.  I think the school picked about the most humane way around this that I can think of. 

So what would you do if this student was in your child's school?  Would you be okay with a student with boy parts in the girls bathroom or a studnet with girl parts in the boys with your child?

news.yahoo.com/transgender-student-suit-goes-maine-high-court-153230913.html

BANGOR, Maine (AP) — Lawyers for a transgender girl and an elementary school that required the fifth-grader to use a staff bathroom instead of the girls restroom clashed before Maine's highest court Wednesday over whether her rights were violated, a case that lays bare the difficult decisions facing school administrators.

The family and the Maine Human Rights Commission sued, but a judge in the state's lower Superior Court ruled that the Orono school district acted within its discretion by requiring her to use a staff bathroom after there was a complaint about the student using the girls bathroom.

I did find it funny that the person who complained was the grandfather of a boy.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

In the bathroom, I'd be fine with it.  In the girls bathroom he'd have to use a stall and unless I am peeping how would I know that little girl is really a little boy?  Same with the boys bathroom, they have at least one stall in them.

Locker room would be difficult because you have to change clothes but I don't think it'd be impossible. Unless he was really well endowed I probably wouldn't notice a boy changing if he otherwise appeared to be a girl.  Not sure about girls but if I had any smaller boobs I'd be able to pass as a pre-teen boy.
 

[The Captain]

973beachbum

I actually think the school had it right in this case.  Sorry, but someone with a penis does not belong in a girls bathroom.  I understand the student in question identifies as a female but this is a case of a single individual demanding a group change to suite their wants and that is not right.

What if there was even ONE girl who was not comfortable with a boy in the bathroom?  What about the girl's rights?

It seemed wise to me to offer the student a room they could use without making anyone uncomfortable, but of course that was not enough.  So much for trying to accommodate.

And as far as the girls room having stalls, how many times have you gone to the girls room to change during a play, sports activity etc (my school did not have locker rooms, at our theater the bathrooms are the changing rooms)?  At my school/park district it is very common for girls to undress/change in the common area in the restroom when time was tight and stall space was limited.   

[973beachbum]

Jun 12, 2013 13:04:39 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

In the bathroom, I'd be fine with it.  In the girls bathroom he'd have to use a stall and unless I am peeping how would I know that little girl is really a little boy?  Same with the boys bathroom, they have at least one stall in them.

Locker room would be difficult because you have to change clothes but I don't think it'd be impossible. Unless he was really well endowed I probably wouldn't notice a boy changing if he otherwise appeared to be a girl.  Not sure about girls but if I had any smaller boobs I'd be able to pass as a pre-teen boy.
 

My kids went to different school in different counties and their bathrooms didn't have working doors really.  The boys room had uninals mostly with one toilet stall without a door and the girls stalls had doors just with no working locks. 

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Meh. I was in theatre.  We all stripped in the same room and ran around in our underwear.  Probably some regulation against that somewhere.  I didn't use separate dressing rooms till college.

FWIW I think the school did it's best to compromise in this situation. 97 asked what *I* would think and I answered. 

[The Captain]

DQ - Nope fair enough.  As an adult I honestly wouln't care but think developing pubescent girls may have a different view...(I can't even discuss DD shaving her pits in front of her father)

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

As an adult I honestly wouln't care but think developing pubescent girls may have a different view

Understandable.  Which is why I think the school did its best.  The school has to consider EVERYONE in their decision and for them it's probably better to face one pissed off family than a horde of them.

[973beachbum]

Personally i think these things are best if places just have little bathrooms with actual doors like at home.  I just don't know that that is reasonable for a place like a school.  My son's elem school has 15ish student who have to use the bathroom at the same time.  It is designed to get the most kids in at a time.  That rarely makes for making people feel comfortable.

I will add that in my DD's school, circa 1868 , they didnt have teachers bathrooms.  so the teachers used the same bathrooms as the kids.  I heard more than one parent ask why the teacher, ususally a man, was using the bathroom with their kid.  The short answer was usually something like "because they aren't allowed to pee in their trash can".

even though it was that one student who complained, I doubt they were the only one who noticed.  they just were the only one who said something.

Drama at my DD's school kids change into bathing suits in the bathrooms at the end of the day and walk out in them.  Techincally they aren't supposed to and can get in trouble although I have never heard of anyone actually getting in any. 

[Phoenix84]

I think the school made the right decision.  I can understand parents not being happy with a boy using a girls bathroom or vice versa.  He should either be using the boys bathroom or the staff bathroom if that's not "good enough."  A single individual does not have the right to change the rules for everyone else to suit them.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Our swim team consisted of 2 people.

Most public places I go now have a "family" bathroom.  At the school I would think the staff bathroom would come closest to that.

Clean staff bathroom to myself or public restroom?  Girls can be nastier than boys.

[raeoflyte]

Jun 12, 2013 13:41:02 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

I think the school made the right decision.  I can understand parents not being happy with a boy using a girls bathroom or vice versa.  He should either be using the boys bathroom or the staff bathroom if that's not "good enough."  A single individual does not have the right to change the rules for everyone else to suit them.

It's incredibly rude to continue to use male pronouns when a person has made it clear they identify as female. There is medical evidence that supports that this is a physical issue, not a mental one, and even if it was mental I don't understand why some people (not necessarily phoenix) have to be so mean because someone is different.

I think the school did the best they could with a tough situation. My Dh (trans) probably feels differently.

For future schools being built I can see having one or two single stall bathrooms included on the plans similar to how business' have family restrooms now. These lawsuits, while frustrating, may bring about that much change, which I wouldn't consider a budget buster.

[Phoenix84]

Jun 12, 2013 14:12:46 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

Jun 12, 2013 13:41:02 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

I think the school made the right decision.  I can understand parents not being happy with a boy using a girls bathroom or vice versa.  He should either be using the boys bathroom or the staff bathroom if that's not "good enough."  A single individual does not have the right to change the rules for everyone else to suit them.

It's incredibly rude to continue to use male pronouns when a person has made it clear they identify as female. There is medical evidence that supports that this is a physical issue, not a mental one, and even if it was mental I don't understand why some people (not necessarily phoenix) have to be so mean because someone is different.

I think the school did the best they could with a tough situation. My Dh (trans) probably feels differently.

For future schools being built I can see having one or two single stall bathrooms included on the plans similar to how business' have family restrooms now. These lawsuits, while frustrating, may bring about that much change, which I wouldn't consider a budget buster.

I don't want to go into it very much because it's outside the scope of this thread.  But I will continue to refer to anyone biologically born male as "he."  Because that's what they are, plain and simple.  There's no malice or mean spiritedness on my part when I use such pronouns.  If others want to take it as such that's their problem. 

[raeoflyte]

Jun 12, 2013 14:40:49 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

Jun 12, 2013 14:12:46 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

It's incredibly rude to continue to use male pronouns when a person has made it clear they identify as female. There is medical evidence that supports that this is a physical issue, not a mental one, and even if it was mental I don't understand why some people (not necessarily phoenix) have to be so mean because someone is different.

I think the school did the best they could with a tough situation. My Dh (trans) probably feels differently.

For future schools being built I can see having one or two single stall bathrooms included on the plans similar to how business' have family restrooms now. These lawsuits, while frustrating, may bring about that much change, which I wouldn't consider a budget buster.

I don't want to go into it very much because it's outside the scope of this thread.  But I will continue to refer to anyone biologically born male as "he."  Because that's what they are, plain and simple.  There's no malice or mean spiritedness on my part when I use such pronouns.  If others want to take it as such that's their problem. 

It is cruel and unnecessary, but probably helps you feel superior.

In many cases there is absolutely no way you can tell from looking at a person what genitals they were born with.

[Deleted]

I wonder what would the parents do if it was the opposite?

A young girl that felt she was a boy.

Would they sue for their daughter's right to use the boys restroom/changing room just like all the other boys?

For some reason I am having a hard time seeing this happening.

[Phoenix84]

"It is cruel and unnecessary, but probably helps you feel superior."

In my opinion, you're the one getting an ego boost by feigning outrage and sticking up for the supposedly opressed.  We were having a perfectly amicable, intelligent convsersation until you showed up and started flinging personal accusations around.

"In many cases there is absolutely no way you can tell from looking at a person what genitals they were born with." 

Depends, in some cases yes in some no.  That's really irrelevent to the conversation.  In this case though, we know the individual in question is biologically male, so that's why myself and several others have refered to him as such. 

[Phoenix84]

Jun 12, 2013 14:50:06 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

I wonder what would the parents do if it was the opposite?

A young girl that felt she was a boy.

Would they sue for their daughter's right to use the boys restroom/changing room just like all the other boys?

For some reason I am having a hard time seeing this happening.

Actually, I think it would upset many parents, both of young and older boys.

[Deleted]

Jun 12, 2013 14:56:03 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

Jun 12, 2013 14:50:06 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

I wonder what would the parents do if it was the opposite?

A young girl that felt she was a boy.

Would they sue for their daughter's right to use the boys restroom/changing room just like all the other boys?

For some reason I am having a hard time seeing this happening.

Actually, I think it would upset many parents, both of young and older children. 

No, I meant would the parents sue to have their daughter in the same room as the other boys.

For some reason I think even in their mind while supporting their son being a girl... They see him as a boy.

So yes you have no issues with your boy being in the same room as the other girls because in the back of your mind you are thinking: he is a boy, he can handle it, he will not be pushed around.

But I wonder if they would do the same:
Putting their daughter in a room full of boys or would they be ok with her using a faculty restroom. Yes your daughter identifies as a boy but still genetically female... Would you risk her safety by putting her in a room with a bunch of boys who will be half naked or totally naked?

As I said... If he was a girl that identified as a boy and the school made that same ruling I don't see the parents suing over it.

[Miss Tequila]

Oh hell now would I be ok with that.  The school had it right.

[Miss Tequila]

Jun 12, 2013 14:46:26 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

Jun 12, 2013 14:40:49 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

I don't want to go into it very much because it's outside the scope of this thread.  But I will continue to refer to anyone biologically born male as "he."  Because that's what they are, plain and simple.  There's no malice or mean spiritedness on my part when I use such pronouns.  If others want to take it as such that's their problem. 

It is cruel and unnecessary, but probably helps you feel superior.

In many cases there is absolutely no way you can tell from looking at a person what genitals they were born with.

That might be true for a female to male but the Adam's apple is a dead give away on a male to female...not to mention a lot of men are bigger than women.  I remember working in a shoe store when I was in high school.  We had two that came in regularly...the adams' apple and size 12/13 shoes they wanted were honestly a dead give away. 

[raeoflyte]

Jun 12, 2013 14:54:38 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

"It is cruel and unnecessary, but probably helps you feel superior."

In my opinion, you're the one getting an ego boost by feigning outrage and sticking up for the supposedly opressed.  We were having a perfectly amicable, intelligent convsersation until you showed up and started flinging personal accusations around.

"In many cases there is absolutely no way you can tell from looking at a person what genitals they were born with." 

Depends, in some cases yes in some no.  That's really irrelevent to the conversation.  In this case though, we know the individual in question is biologically male, so that's why myself and several others have refered to him as such. 

I'm not feigning outrage or even feel it. I didn't fling insults until you posted that you don't care if someone has a medical condition, you will continue to call it like you see it. Good luck with that. I hope others show you more compassion than you are giving in this matter.

If you'll notice I also said I agreed with the schools solution.

[raeoflyte]

Jun 12, 2013 15:03:40 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Jun 12, 2013 14:46:26 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

It is cruel and unnecessary, but probably helps you feel superior.

In many cases there is absolutely no way you can tell from looking at a person what genitals they were born with.

That might be true for a female to male but the Adam's apple is a dead give away on a male to female...not to mention a lot of men are bigger than women.  I remember working in a shoe store when I was in high school.  We had two that came in regularly...the adams' apple and size 12/13 shoes they wanted were honestly a dead give away. 

You can have the Adams apple surgically removed if you have the funds.

Plus if a mtf transitions young enough, they may never have an Adams apple to remove.

My mom wears 12/13 size shoes.

[973beachbum]

Jun 12, 2013 15:03:40 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Jun 12, 2013 14:46:26 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

It is cruel and unnecessary, but probably helps you feel superior.

In many cases there is absolutely no way you can tell from looking at a person what genitals they were born with.

That might be true for a female to male but the Adam's apple is a dead give away on a male to female...not to mention a lot of men are bigger than women.  I remember working in a shoe store when I was in high school.  We had two that came in regularly...the adams' apple and size 12/13 shoes they wanted were honestly a dead give away. 

When they are in public I probably would just use whatever gender seems to go with what they project.  But once they are in the bathroom or changing room it becomes pretty obvious to me.

I get what Cawaiu is saying.  I also doubt many parents would let their daughter,even if they identified themself as a boy, to use the boys room/locker room.   Maybe i'm wrong but i can't see it happening.

[Miss Tequila]

Jun 12, 2013 15:06:58 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

Jun 12, 2013 15:03:40 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

That might be true for a female to male but the Adam's apple is a dead give away on a male to female...not to mention a lot of men are bigger than women.  I remember working in a shoe store when I was in high school.  We had two that came in regularly...the adams' apple and size 12/13 shoes they wanted were honestly a dead give away. 

You can have the Adams apple surgically removed if you have the funds.

Plus if a mtf transitions young enough, they may never have an Adams apple to remove.

My mom wears 12/13 size shoes.

LOL...I know that there are a few women out there that have really big feet for a woman...but when you toss in the Adams apple it is kind of a giveaway that they are at least genetically a male.  I have seen some very tall, very obviously genetically female (errr...is that ok to saylol) 

I'm not going to argue about whether one can tell or not because who knows.  I only know of one person in real life that "had the operation" and this person still looks like a man (albeit without the facial hair) in women's clothing to me.  this person was older when they did it so maybe that is the difference.  Last I saw, Adam's apple, ,man hands and big feet...

I have seen some people that I can't tell if that are a man or a woman but typically they are really butchy lesbians (or I am assuming lesbians...is it bad to assume that anyone with a mullet is in fact a lesbian (ok, a little non-pc humor to lighten the mood  

[Miss Tequila]

Jun 12, 2013 15:09:42 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

Jun 12, 2013 15:03:40 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

That might be true for a female to male but the Adam's apple is a dead give away on a male to female...not to mention a lot of men are bigger than women.  I remember working in a shoe store when I was in high school.  We had two that came in regularly...the adams' apple and size 12/13 shoes they wanted were honestly a dead give away. 

When they are in public I probably would just use whatever gender seems to go with what they project.  But once they are in the bathroom or changing room it becomes pretty obvious to me.

I get what Cawaiu is saying.  I also doubt many parents would let their daughter,even if they identified themself as a boy, to use the boys room/locker room.   Maybe i'm wrong but i can't see it happening.

Here is where I draw teh line...and I'm probably going to get shot by all of y ou liberals (story of my life)...identifying yourself as one sex does not MAKE you that sex.  You are still a boy, you still have boy parts, etc.  I'm still iffy on the surgery but at least then you are anatomically the other sex though genetically the original sex. 

I can identify myself as a Victoria's Secrets model...it doesn't make me one

[raeoflyte]

Jun 12, 2013 15:11:39 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Jun 12, 2013 15:06:58 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

You can have the Adams apple surgically removed if you have the funds.

Plus if a mtf transitions young enough, they may never have an Adams apple to remove.

My mom wears 12/13 size shoes.

LOL...I know that there are a few women out there that have really big feet for a woman...but when you toss in the Adams apple it is kind of a giveaway that they are at least genetically a male.  I have seen some very tall, very obviously genetically female (errr...is that ok to saylol) 

I'm not going to argue about whether one can tell or not because who knows.  I only know of one person in real life that "had the operation" and this person still looks like a man (albeit without the facial hair) in women's clothing to me.  this person was older when they did it so maybe that is the difference.  Last I saw, Adam's apple, ,man hands and big feet...

I have seen some people that I can't tell if that are a man or a woman but typically they are really butchy lesbians (or I am assuming lesbians...is it bad to assume that anyone with a mullet is in fact a lesbian (ok, a little non-pc humor to lighten the mood  

I never argued that sometimes you can tell, or at least have a really strong suspicion. just pointing out that sometimes those suspicions are wrong.

[Miss Tequila]

Jun 12, 2013 15:16:24 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

Jun 12, 2013 15:11:39 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

LOL...I know that there are a few women out there that have really big feet for a woman...but when you toss in the Adams apple it is kind of a giveaway that they are at least genetically a male.  I have seen some very tall, very obviously genetically female (errr...is that ok to saylol) 

I'm not going to argue about whether one can tell or not because who knows.  I only know of one person in real life that "had the operation" and this person still looks like a man (albeit without the facial hair) in women's clothing to me.  this person was older when they did it so maybe that is the difference.  Last I saw, Adam's apple, ,man hands and big feet...

I have seen some people that I can't tell if that are a man or a woman but typically they are really butchy lesbians (or I am assuming lesbians...is it bad to assume that anyone with a mullet is in fact a lesbian (ok, a little non-pc humor to lighten the mood  

I never argued that sometimes you can tell, or at least have a really strong suspicion. just pointing out that sometimes those suspicions are wrong.

I agree

[Phoenix84]

Okay, I understand what Cawaiu is saying.  I thought he was saying parents of boys would not be upset if a girl who identified as a boy used a boy's restroom.  I'm sure many parents of boys would not like that.  But I agree that the parents of a girl who identifies as a boy would be less likely to sue to get their daughter into the boys restroom. 

[raeoflyte]

Jun 12, 2013 15:13:34 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Jun 12, 2013 15:09:42 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

When they are in public I probably would just use whatever gender seems to go with what they project.  But once they are in the bathroom or changing room it becomes pretty obvious to me.

I get what Cawaiu is saying.  I also doubt many parents would let their daughter,even if they identified themself as a boy, to use the boys room/locker room.   Maybe i'm wrong but i can't see it happening.

Here is where I draw teh line...and I'm probably going to get shot by all of y ou liberals (story of my life)...identifying yourself as one sex does not MAKE you that sex.  You are still a boy, you still have boy parts, etc.  I'm still iffy on the surgery but at least then you are anatomically the other sex though genetically the original sex. 

I can identify myself as a Victoria's Secrets model...it doesn't make me one

I really have to get back to work after this, but since you're bringing this up...

What about people who are intersex'd? People born with chromosomal issues. Should we pretend that they are making it up? Or current research that suggests that trans peoples brains develop differently in utero, so bodies and brain are at odds. If you're born with a penis you should live as a man regardless of physical issues that caused the issue?

Having lived as close as possible to a person who has transitioned I can say that it isn't something one enters into lightly or just because it will make things easier. The only comparison I can think of is an anorexic who sees a fat person in the mirror regardless of how skinny they are. Trans people feel a certain way despite the incongruous genitals.

And, even if it is all in their heathen heads...if it doesn't hurt you to use the pronouns they identify with why wouldn't you?

[Phoenix84]

Jun 12, 2013 15:03:40 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Jun 12, 2013 14:46:26 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

It is cruel and unnecessary, but probably helps you feel superior.

In many cases there is absolutely no way you can tell from looking at a person what genitals they were born with.

That might be true for a female to male but the Adam's apple is a dead give away on a male to female...not to mention a lot of men are bigger than women.  I remember working in a shoe store when I was in high school.  We had two that came in regularly...the adams' apple and size 12/13 shoes they wanted were honestly a dead give away. 

And when they talk it's usually a dead giveaway.  Unless they have the surgery very young.

[chiver78]

Jun 12, 2013 14:12:46 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

Jun 12, 2013 13:41:02 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

I think the school made the right decision.  I can understand parents not being happy with a boy using a girls bathroom or vice versa.  He should either be using the boys bathroom or the staff bathroom if that's not "good enough."  A single individual does not have the right to change the rules for everyone else to suit them.

It's incredibly rude to continue to use male pronouns when a person has made it clear they identify as female. There is medical evidence that supports that this is a physical issue, not a mental one, and even if it was mental I don't understand why some people (not necessarily phoenix) have to be so mean because someone is different.

I think the school did the best they could with a tough situation. My Dh (trans) probably feels differently.

For future schools being built I can see having one or two single stall bathrooms included on the plans similar to how business' have family restrooms now. These lawsuits, while frustrating, may bring about that much change, which I wouldn't consider a budget buster.

I've noticed that in a couple posts already, just skimming.

I would fully support the addition of a couple single stall restrooms, too.