patchwork150
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Post by patchwork150 on Feb 11, 2011 15:04:22 GMT -5
I am 23, DH is 26, no kids, live in a low cost of living area that also is a low salary area. We went through a really tough time financially from 2008 to 2010 (long story short, DH was out of work for 7 months, and we had just purchased a car, we ended up $12K in debt.) I got on MSN Money, and found help here (mostly on ask the experts, and women in red). I rehauled how I did things, got a second job, and paid off the debt in August of 2010. DH grosses around 35K, I gross 28k without the second job. I am now back in college and still work full-time. To date, I have saved almost $12k. DH has saved $1k.
A lot of you have experience with giving advice to couples on managing money- so I am asking.
I have become a frugal person, and obsessed with saving. The debt we were in scared me SO much- and having no safety net has made me realize how important it is to build one. So I have been- but on my own. DH on the other hand does not like to feel controlled, and is what I would call a spender. He feels that as long as the bills are paid, and we don't owe anyone anything, he should spend his money on what he wants, when he wants, without input from me. That includes big purchases.
We have NOT been able to discuss this thouroughly- he doesn't want to talk about it. I have tried- I talk at him, and get no response. This is the only point of contention in our marriage (we have a wonderful marriage, I am very happy with him in every other aspect of our life). I try not to push it because A) I don't want $ to destroy our happiness, and B) I know that change takes time and thought. I try my best to be a good person, and a good wife. We are in a partnership in my mind. However, with me being the cheif person in control of finances, it gets messy.
He usually reacts to me pushing by feeling overwhelmed, feeling controlled (which he has a major problem with, he was abused as a child, and it really is a delicate line to walk with him), and feeling frustrated (he feels he will never be able to make it, he doesn't see the positives sometimes, just the negatives).
What would you recommend in this case? I am not going to have a come-to-jesus moment with him. I have been taking things slowly, and he really has been slowly improving. I do not want to be the dictator, I want to give him the tools he needs to get on board with me without forcing him to do so!
Next post is our 'budget'
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Feb 11, 2011 15:09:38 GMT -5
He usually reacts to me pushing by feeling overwhelmed, feeling controlled (which he has a major problem with, he was abused as a child, and it really is a delicate line to walk with him), and feeling frustrated (he feels he will never be able to make it, he doesn't see the positives sometimes, just the negatives).
Did he ever receive counseling on the abuse? If not, suggest it. You shouldn't have to walk on eggshells on the money topic. And maybe see a good financial counselor/adviser. It may be easier to hear from someone he's paying than you.
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patchwork150
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Post by patchwork150 on Feb 11, 2011 15:15:45 GMT -5
last month's expenses:
His paycheck pays (around $520 week): Rent- $375/month Grocieries/household- last month was $599 His gas- last month was $192 + His car expenses- last month $310 in repairs His Entertainment- $257 last month (he got a new cell phone, a DVD, etc) Eating out- $30 Various (cash withdrawls)- $320
I pay ($779 bi-weekly): TV- $46 Car Insurance- $86 Cell Phones/Internet- $196 Electricity- $137 College- last month was $1592, not monthly though Medicine/Copays- $97 Eating out- $9 My Gas- $179 My Car expenses- $47 last month Pharmacy/Post Office/etc- $57 Automatic Savings- $100 bi-weekly Savings- all leftover $ any extra income- savings (tax return, bonuses, etc)
The thing is, we have mostly separate spending. It's hard to keep separate, because DH doesn't have a separate checking account, only savings...
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patchwork150
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Post by patchwork150 on Feb 11, 2011 15:20:44 GMT -5
Did he ever receive counseling on the abuse? If not, suggest it. You shouldn't have to walk on eggshells on the money topic. And maybe see a good financial counselor/adviser. It may be easier to hear from someone he's paying than you. He's not open to counciling, because he thinks there isn't anything 'wrong' with him. He doesn't use it as an excuse- never brings it up actually- but I know it's there, and I believe this is his issue with feeling controlled. He has told me about what happened to him- his grandparents really did some terrible things to him and his brothers. He just over-reacts whenever he thinks I am trying to control him, tell him what to do, etc... I think I will try to suggest it over time- obviously being pushy won't work, but I think in time I might be able to get him to think about it...
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Post by illinicheme on Feb 11, 2011 15:23:57 GMT -5
Can you approach it from a goals perspective? Maybe he doesn't like thinking about potential negatives happening again. Maybe you can get him to agree on some fun future goals (vacation, etc.) and he can save for the fun goals out of his money. Then you can worry about the less-fun goals of retirement, safety net, etc out of your money? Might be a starting point at least to get him saving for one small thing.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Feb 11, 2011 15:26:24 GMT -5
The bigger question is are you considering bringing children into the world with him?
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oreo
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Post by oreo on Feb 11, 2011 15:26:47 GMT -5
Did being in debt a few years ago bother DH? If it did, maybe you can somehow use that to help you? I'm not expert on this or anything but hopefully someone else here will be able to offer some helpful advice.
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patchwork150
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Post by patchwork150 on Feb 11, 2011 15:26:52 GMT -5
Can you approach it from a goals perspective? Maybe he doesn't like thinking about potential negatives happening again. Maybe you can get him to agree on some fun future goals (vacation, etc.) and he can save for the fun goals out of his money. Then you can worry about the less-fun goals of retirement, safety net, etc out of your money? Might be a starting point at least to get him saving for one small thing. and suddenly, a lightbulb! I don't think I have approached it with him this way, though I do with myself (weird, yes). I set goals for myself to get saving, but when I talk to him it's usually about what we NEED to do, not what we COULD do...
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patchwork150
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Post by patchwork150 on Feb 11, 2011 15:28:34 GMT -5
The bigger question is are you considering bringing children into the world with him? Yes. Which is a reason why I worry about this all the time. We won't be having kids until I am out of college (as long as the BC continues to work lol) so we have 5ish years to work things out (I am going for a PHD).
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Feb 11, 2011 15:29:48 GMT -5
patchwork: Its nice to see you still around, and good to hear that things are getting better, even if slowly, with DH. I am also happy you were able to figure out a way to do school and work. I think right now, you're approaching your savings out of fear, and maybe phrasing it to DH as you can't do this because what if X happens? While EFs are hugely important, they're also really hard for some people to understand. So instead of saving for the ephemeral what if (or instead of trying to save for it right now) and focusing on what you'd have to give up, why not save FOR something, and focus on what you get. For example: Do you want to own a house one day, or just go on a nice vacation? Does DH want this too? Sit down with him and say "I know we both want X, and we've talked about wanting it by Y date. In order to do that, we need Z money. How do we get there? Again, start the savings by focusing on a want, since that's what he believes the money should be spent for. Once people get in the habit of savings, its easier to add the cushion.
At the same time, to use the parlance of the Slate article we discussed, it sounds like you might be independent operators - you each have your own accounts and do what you want with the money. If that is the case, you will have a harder time, because you've already tacitly agreed that its his money and your money and that there is no "our" money. In that sense, you might want to start the conversation differently, by asking to be Sometime Sharers instead. This will create a pot of "our" money, and then give him time to get used to that. Once he's used to sharing money, then its easier to approach shared savings goals.
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patchwork150
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Post by patchwork150 on Feb 11, 2011 15:30:53 GMT -5
I think that while DH didn't like not having $ when we were in debt (we did have a few almost fights, he felt stressed and deprived, which we both did), since I handle the $ matters, and worked my @$s off to get rid of it ASAP (from SEP 09- Aug 10), I don't think he really felt it as much as I did.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Feb 11, 2011 15:31:10 GMT -5
Yes. Which is a reason why I worry about this all the time. We won't be having kids until I am out of college (as long as the BC continues to work lol) so we have 5ish years to work things out (I am going for a PHD).
That is excellent that you are working on your education, and a doctorate at that! I can say this much for certain, your DH is not going to change. Bringing kids into the world and being responsible for them in all respects does not sound like something he will be interested in.
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Post by mtntigger on Feb 11, 2011 15:31:22 GMT -5
Maybe you could attend Financial Peace University. I've heard it really helps couples who are not on the same financial page.
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patchwork150
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Post by patchwork150 on Feb 11, 2011 15:34:20 GMT -5
I can say this much for certain, your DH is not going to change. Bringing kids into the world and being responsible for them in all respects does not sound like something he will be interested in. Not sure I am 100% in agreement with you. Over the last 7 years, he has shown how dedicated he has been to changing for the better. He's an ex-alcoholic as well. He's great with kids (we have our neice all the time actually) and would be thrilled to have one, even if I got pregnant RIGHT NOW. But, I want certain things to happen prior to having children lol.
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patchwork150
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Post by patchwork150 on Feb 11, 2011 15:38:48 GMT -5
shanendoah: nice to see you too! I'm always reading on here, if not always commenting : )
I think over the 5 years of our marriage, we started out completely separate. Right now we kind of are 'sometime sharers' but it's not that simple. The only separate account is his savings- but we keep track of how much $ is his in the cking account (exhausting, actually, since I do it, he just kind of expects it, and I have never complained, so he has no idea of the effort involved).
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Feb 11, 2011 15:44:28 GMT -5
He's great with kids (we have our neice all the time actually) and would be thrilled to have one, even if I got pregnant RIGHT NOW. But, I want certain things to happen prior to having children lol.
Baby sitting for someone else's kid is not really the same as having one of your own. I have to tell you that this entire thing sounds like a research project for your doctorate thesis.
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keepinthefaith
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Post by keepinthefaith on Feb 11, 2011 15:55:22 GMT -5
Is he aware that you worry about it so much? I'm going to make a couple assumptions. I'm assuming: a) he cares about you and your feelings, and b) even though you've talked "at" him about money, you've never honestly told him how much this issue is eating at you.
Do you think it's possible that he's so caught up in his own troubles that it's hard for him to naturally notice yours without you telling him? I'm not saying that he doesn't care, but you might have to be more deliberate about saying, "dude, this is truly bothering me and I can't live like this. Something has to change."
I second the notion about Financial Peace University. I've never done it myself but I've heard amazing things about people getting spousal buy-in this way. You can check with local churches to see if they will be offering it any time soon, or you can buy the materials on your own or see if they're available at your local library (author: Dave Ramsey). I hear there's a waitlist but from the sound of it, it's worth the wait.
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patchwork150
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Post by patchwork150 on Feb 11, 2011 16:30:25 GMT -5
He's great with kids (we have our neice all the time actually) and would be thrilled to have one, even if I got pregnant RIGHT NOW. But, I want certain things to happen prior to having children lol. Baby sitting for someone else's kid is not really the same as having one of your own. I have to tell you that this entire thing sounds like a research project for your doctorate thesis. LOL on two counts. Yes, I agree theoretically that having kids is not the same as babysitting (haven't expereinced it, obviously, but from attempting to learn from the SIL, I have learned I am NOT ready for kids yet! Of course, we would have to step up if the BC failed, which it shouldn't but stranger things have happened...) and HUGE ROFL from the theory that this is research for a thesis! I'm going to be a Veterinarian- not so sure anything here will work for a thesis LOL! Everyone else: I've honestly never heard of this Financial Peace University, but it's worth a try. The hard part will be getting DH to watch it/attend it/read it with me (whatever it entails, since I have no idea).
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patchwork150
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Post by patchwork150 on Feb 11, 2011 16:40:03 GMT -5
keepinthefaith
You have a point. He DOES care about me, but he gets swallowed up in his issues sometimes and can be oblivious. I am usually the anchor in the relationship, though he certainly is mine I think I am more even-tempered, stable, etc. He can be moody, brooding, gets into funks occasionally, etc (nothing too serious though). It's funny, since popular myth is that the woman is the hormonal one!
So, me being the person I am, yes I don't communicate that things bother me- I push them out of my mind. I deal with a lot of things like that, which probably isn't the best. I can be a push-over, but have gotten much better over the years. I never get angry- can't even remember the last time I was. I try not to be dramatic, and try to wait for the best time to discuss things. I try to be reasonable, and realize what is important and what isn't. So, sometimes I choose peace over possible fights- and sometimes that is the right choice, but this might be different because it hasn't gone away like most things that are not important do.
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Feb 12, 2011 21:20:59 GMT -5
I agree with previous posters that Financial Peace University would be a positive thing for both of you. If you can't get him to attend, at least read Dave Ramsey's book "Total Money Makeover" (get DH to read it too). I've read a LOT of financial books over the years, and if you're having trouble getting DH on board with you, this book strongly encourages couples to work together to reach all their goals TOGETHER, & uses everyday language if DH wasn't a business major in college. The bad news is, if DH refuses to change, he may not be the ideal candidate to have children with, since he may not pull his weight with child-rearing responsibilities. Raising kids is a full-time job all by itself, and when you add in the responsibilities of your own job, and everything else that comes along, you want to make sure you're married to someone who will roll up his sleeves and help out.
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on Feb 12, 2011 21:42:44 GMT -5
Seems like a cyclical pattern of you doing everything that's necessary to get the debt paid off, to get yourself a PhD, etc, etc, etc, while he just focuses on his life and living it the way he wants.
When shit hit the fan [his unemployment], you got a second job to pay down the $12k in debt.
Do you like living your life solely for his benefit? All seems fine in your relationship as long as you tread that line carefully not to send him into a hissy fit. Seems like this relationship doesn't benefit you as much as him.
Have you told him your desire to be financially secure when you bring children into this world...and that you'd like to with him some day?
His response?
You've got to determine whether the two of you are in this life together and have a common goal and plan for that life or whether you do not. If you do not, get out of the relationship and do not bring a child into this world with him.
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Feb 12, 2011 22:25:27 GMT -5
One method is to set up a Plan where the savings is autodeposited before you see it. Ie, instead of paying bills first and saving the remainder, reverse it - pay to savings first and live on the remainder. That way, with the knowledge that your Plan is on track, you can enjoy spending everything else - few about money.
Say a $5000/yr Plan for 30 yrs invested at 11%/yr, that is $1.1M in 30 yrs (age 53), or $3.3M at 40 yrs if you leave it alone. But more likely, a few years after you become a Vet, you will bump up the amount - maybe $10,000/yr or $15,000/yr. In any case, $3M to $5M if you follow the discipline.
Edit - small animal care? or livestock? cattle, hogs, horses? (I have the full James Herriot set.)
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DVM gone riding
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Post by DVM gone riding on Feb 12, 2011 22:54:42 GMT -5
patchwork: Just so you have your terminology correct a veterinarian has a professional doctorate degree NOT a PhD degree-they are then called...wait...Professional students (believe me you will feel like one by then) rather than "graduate students" other such students would be lawyers, regular doctors, pharmacists etc. people with real letters after their names and not a fluff "PhD" The two degrees awarded in the US are a DVM (doctor of veterinary medicine) and a VMD (veterinary medical doctor) Just depends on where you go to school.
Best of luck to you it is a long hard road but most days it is worth it in the end. And yeah I agree if that is your plan you should put off the kids, but maybe think twice if you really want that kind of life.
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happyscooter
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Post by happyscooter on Feb 13, 2011 9:26:13 GMT -5
If you decide to go your separate ways, be prepared to hear from everyone that he has told them that you are a 'cheapskate, didn't want to do anything fun, never wanted to go anywhere, never wanted to eat out, took all of his money, etc...' Your breakup will not be for the same reason that you told him. That you would like a stable financial future. That you would like to be able to buy a house, or travel, or have children, or provide an education for your children.
Have your response ready for all of those people. Or decide that they don't deserve an response.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2011 10:29:31 GMT -5
So, me being the person I am, yes I don't communicate that things bother me- I push them out of my mind. I deal with a lot of things like that, which probably isn't the best. I can be a push-over, but have gotten much better over the years. I never get angry- can't even remember the last time I was. <snip>So, sometimes I choose peace over possible fights- and sometimes that is the right choice, but this might be different because it hasn't gone away like most things that are not important do. This scares me- I have many of the same traits you do and a former boss once called me (accurately) "non-confrontational". It's a good way to get walked all over. I was married to a moody spendthrift and bent over backwards doing everything I could to keep the peace. As in your situation, he was the spender, I was the saver. He got anything he wanted and if he had to max out his credit cards, that was OK. *I* was the Emergency Fund. If the water heater broke or we needed a new roof, it came out of the money I'd saved by not buying and doing everything I wanted. If he won't go for counseling, go yourself. Never getting angry is not good- it's a sign that you're pushing too much into the back of your mind because you don't want to deal with it. There are people who will exploit that and take advantage of you. It's a massive burden being the only responsible party in the marriage. I'm now married to a wonderful man who shares my financial priorities. It makes all the difference in the world.
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stats45
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Post by stats45 on Feb 13, 2011 11:46:09 GMT -5
Congratulations on paying down the debt and looking more carefully at your financial situation!
One thing first, if you have not noticed already, there is a bit of a battle between people who save maybe 15-20% of their income and those who save 30-40% or more. The people who save 15-20% like a little more room in their budget for spending and think those who save any more are paranoid. The people who save 30-40% or more value savings and investment much more than spending and think people who could save more but don't are dupes who value electronics, travel, or whatever over lasting security. I say this because it doesn't always come out that both groups (usually) are saving much more than the average household. Any disagreement you hear about savings is usually one about degree, rather than 'spend vs. save'.
If you are non-confrontational and you know he feels differently than you about this, you need a good plan to make the transition to living a different lifestyle. Counseling (for him, yourself, or both) sounds like a great way to help make the emotional transition for both of you to being more responsible (him for his accountability and you for your view of self and ability to make demands). Once you begin to think about these things and care about making good financial decisions, it really does begin to compound. You will continue to find yourself moving further and further away from your partner if you don't examine these issues now. Because so many issues rest on finances, these issues can breed resentment and mistrust.
If you are looking for a long-term commitment from this person, money can be a good way to gauge that. You may have a vision of a single-family home and retirement accounts in your head, but many times a partner does not. To me, financial planning is part of commiting to a particular type of future with someone, and it sounds as if it is to you as well. Take this opportunity to not only learn where he stands on finances, but on other lifestyle and personal issues that will certainly be important in the future.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 13, 2011 12:42:48 GMT -5
You need to decide BEFORE you graduate from vet school if the two of you are on the same page. You don't want to be subsidizing his lifestyle otherwise.
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Feb 13, 2011 13:13:27 GMT -5
Calling your husband an ex alcoholic may not be true. Some alcoholics stop drinking and consider that being ex alcoholics but it isn't the same as a recovering alcoholic who is working on the issues. They call the none drinking non recovering alcoholic a dry drunk because other than not drinking they didn't change. My ex was a dry drunk for 17 years but he still had the rest of the behavior of an alcoholic. When he started drinking again he was back to the same as if he had never been dry.
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Post by bobbysgirl on Feb 13, 2011 13:42:31 GMT -5
Maybe I can help a little here. At least get your creative juices flowing.
Men need to feel an amount of control. It is the nature of the beast (cute beasts) Society today leaves no room for men to be men. The abuse issue most likely has increased this in DH. If counseling is not what he wants to do, then you need to make a decision to be patient. Time does heal things, but know it will be the two of you walking down that road. But that is part of loving someone.
Plant a seed concerning going to a financial adviser. Let DH make the decision to go. This takes time, but it would be productive for you as a couple.
You continue on your path of frugality and leave him be. Show excitement when you get good deals. In time he will pick up on the excitement and want to get on board.
All of this takes commitment, but if you have committed to being frugal, I think this would be a walk in the park for you. It will just make a good marriage better.
Good luck. And just so you can think about it, prayer certainly helps. We can't change people, but I've seen God move some pretty stubborn people around to the appropriate way of thinking. (not necessarily my way) One more thing, nagging just pushes men away. They shut down, so if you're on this route, make a right turn. DH used to say, "Give it a rest already!" My cue to back off. Sometimes I was stubborn too.
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patchwork150
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Post by patchwork150 on Feb 13, 2011 16:28:42 GMT -5
He has shown improvement, for one. I posted a similar thread a long time ago, but the issues were more divided. He never really helped around the house, only paid for grocieries, and things weren't going so well for me. He's contributing much more financially, and without me forcing him to (I planted seeds, he made good decisions). He also is helping SO much with the house, honestly he's really wowed me about how much he's stepped up, and without me bitching or complaining either. So, I have a reason to be hopeful . His having 1k saved is also a vast improvement. Now, many of you are worried that he is a 'spender' in the sense that he could bankrup us. In my OP, I tried to make it clear that he doesn't like owing anyone anything, so I'm not afriad of this kind of possibility. The only CC is in my name anyways, and I have it on me... As for being responsible, he really is. He works harder than I do, and he is from another country (which I neglected to mention) so I think alot has to do with how he was brought up. Thankfully, he is not chavenist! However, I think it has a lot to do with his attitue when it comes to 'I work for my $, I should be able to spend (what's leftover from bills) on what I want'
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