When do you give up? (Re: employees)

[midjd]

Edited to remove identifying info. Long story short - a temp has been here for about a month and doesn't seem to be grasping her job duties. 

At this point I'm ready to throw in the towel and have them send someone else next week. But I have that nagging feeling that I should have done something differently, or maybe there are flaws in my training method. OTOH, my other temps haven't had these issues.

How many chances do you give someone who just isn't getting it? When do you pull the plug?

[swamp]

When do you pull the plug? 
Now.  It sounds like a pretty basic job that everyone else got the hang of it pretty quickly.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

She's had a month and according to your post she was shown how to do the job by her pre-decessor.  She knows where you are at and could ask questions if she can't figure something out.  There is a manual she could read if she doesn't understand it.  She's showing no motivation to learn.


If you feel concerned you could have an eval meeting with her and ask her if there are any questions she has about doing the job because you noticed X, Y Z.  You wanted to make sure everyone was on the same page.

Depending on her answer you can decide if she's just lazy/incompetent or she needs some extra training.

[midjd]

Now. It sounds like a pretty basic job that everyone else got the hang of it pretty quickly.

That's what I thought, but I tend to second-guess myself - I thought maybe if I had taken a more active role in training her she would've caught on more quickly. But at this point I'm not sure what else I can do.

Whenever I ask her to do something, I ask her if she has any questions - usually she doesn't, but some of the questions she HAS raised have left me scratching my head. It's like we're talking about two different things.

When my boss' and my admin assistant left last year, we churned through several temps within a few months - they were all pretty awful. (One didn't know how to copy/paste, and another spent more time selling her handmade jewelry than answering the phone). I'm starting to wonder whether we have bad luck or if the labor market has recovered enough that the pool of temps is getting shallow...

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Whenever I ask her to do something, I ask her if she has any questions - usually she doesn't, but some of the questions she HAS raised have left me scratching my head

Then there's your answer.  She is either an idiot or too lazy to do the job properly.

I'm harsh, I have zero patience for crappy students because I'm the one that has to clean up their messes after they leave.


I'm starting to wonder whether we have bad luck or if the labor market has recovered enough that the pool of temps is getting shallow...

Maybe you need to reevaluate the screening your temp company is doing.  Doesn't sound like their doing their jobs either.

LOL on the handmade jewerly operation.

[Abby Normal]

If she's a temp- I would have already cut her loose. Go with your gut.

[midjd]

Maybe you need to reevaluate the screening your temp company is doing. Doesn't sound like their doing their jobs either.

I asked DH about that after our last AA temp failure. I was wondering why they would send someone to do an AA job who didn't know how to copy/paste or "save as."

He said that when he applied at a temp agency, there really was no screening - he told them he could do X, Y, and Z, and they took his word for it and sent his resume out after he passed the drug screen. I'm not sure if that's how it works at all agencies...

At least this has been a good learning experience for me, I guess.

[wvugurl26]

May 3, 2013 12:30:39 GMT -5 midjd said:

Maybe you need to reevaluate the screening your temp company is doing. Doesn't sound like their doing their jobs either.

I asked DH about that after our last AA temp failure. I was wondering why they would send someone to do an AA job who didn't know how to copy/paste or "save as."

He said that when he applied at a temp agency, there really was no screening - he told them he could do X, Y, and Z, and they took his word for it and sent his resume out after he passed the drug screen. I'm not sure if that's how it works at all agencies...

At least this has been a good learning experience for me, I guess.

I used to work for Manpower and they had computer tests.

[973beachbum]

If you keep getting people who are that bad for the job it normally means you wre being out paid to me.

PS just to add your first post says "she was trained by her predecessor" Does that mean you know she was trained or that you assume she was actually trained and not just left with the manual and a good luck? Doesn't mean she still shouldn't be let go but I was left in a job with a "good luck you will be fine" when the boss thought I was "trained". It was a very trying few weeks when I started!

[tskeeter]

Mid, do you like her?  Is she a young person you'd like to help get started on the right foot?  If so, you could sit her down and have the "you seem to be struggling" talk.  You're going to have to train someone.  You get to choose whether it's the person you have, or someone else.

If she has several years of work experience and she didn't get adequately trained by her predecessor, I'd expect her to have talked with you about the lack of training with a day or two.  If she is not an easily intimidated kid, I'd consider not saying anything about lack of training to be a strike. 

On that note, there is a reason why a lot of people are temps.  Many of them aren't good enough to land a FT job.

[midjd]

PS just to add your first post says "she was trained by her predecessor" Does that mean you know she was trained or that you assume she was actually trained and not just left with the manual and a good luck? Doesn't mean she still shouldn't be let go but I was left in a job with a "good luck you will be fine" when the boss thought I was "trained". It was a very trying few weeks when I started!

That was what I worried about. Her first day, I went by to introduce myself and stuck around for a bit - the exiting temp was doing our monthly request and so the new one should have at least been trained on that part. Several of the previous temps made "cheat sheats" that give a quick rundown of everything that needs to be done, who to ask about what, etc.

Still - I suspect there were other parts of the job that may have been glossed over. So when she was still confused after 2 weeks, I thought "well, I should have trained her myself so I'd know what she does/doesn't get."

OTOH the job is simple enough that even being left with the manual and a "good luck" should suffice.

[973beachbum]

May 3, 2013 13:02:36 GMT -5 midjd said:

PS just to add your first post says "she was trained by her predecessor" Does that mean you know she was trained or that you assume she was actually trained and not just left with the manual and a good luck? Doesn't mean she still shouldn't be let go but I was left in a job with a "good luck you will be fine" when the boss thought I was "trained". It was a very trying few weeks when I started!

That was what I worried about. Her first day, I went by to introduce myself and stuck around for a bit - the exiting temp was doing our monthly request and so the new one should have at least been trained on that part. Several of the previous temps made "cheat sheats" that give a quick rundown of everything that needs to be done, who to ask about what, etc.

Still - I suspect there were other parts of the job that may have been glossed over. So when she was still confused after 2 weeks, I thought "well, I should have trained her myself so I'd know what she does/doesn't get."

OTOH the job is simple enough that even being left with the manual and a "good luck" should suffice.

Then you are being out paid. IME people who work office type jobs like that don't want PT. So to get the good people you need to pay a little more per hour for the PT people than you would to attract the same level of worker if the job was FT.  Otherwise you are probably getting people who would work at a job that really doesn't require much of a brain because you are fighting it out with burger king essentially.

I know because it is a gov job you don't have the ability to offer more money, but you could try advertising in places more likely to get people who want the experience, even though they will leave in six months.  I would look at putting your posting in places like the local CC's or votechs type things.  You might get better candidates from them.  Just my two cents.

[midjd]

May 3, 2013 13:41:29 GMT -5 @tbird said:

Mid - did she do the work and just forget to attach the files to the email?  then you couldn't find her work? If that I'd give her a break.

Elsewise, move on - and let the temp place know you aren't happy with their screening.

No - and that's what confused me. I have no idea what she spent her time doing.

Basically she needed to fill out a cover sheet listing all the invoices which were being submitted, copy/paste the cover sheet into the body of the email, attach the invoices, and send.

The email that was sent included two random invoices (of the maybe 30 that were being submitted) and no cover sheet.

[midjd]

Maybe her problem is that she is not having a frame of reference to sort out what you want. You do have that frame of reference, hence what looks obvious to you doesnt to her and she knows this. That would account for the hesitancy to ask questions and why she looks dumb to you for the questions she asks. Maybe she needs more visual then hearing to understand or just needs some time.

I'm sure that is a big part of it - but I don't know how to help her if she won't let me know what she does and doesn't understand.

[mmhmm]

May 3, 2013 13:46:57 GMT -5 midjd said:

May 3, 2013 13:41:29 GMT -5 @tbird said:

Mid - did she do the work and just forget to attach the files to the email?  then you couldn't find her work? If that I'd give her a break.

Elsewise, move on - and let the temp place know you aren't happy with their screening.

No - and that's what confused me. I have no idea what she spent her time doing.

Basically she needed to fill out a cover sheet listing all the invoices which were being submitted, copy/paste the cover sheet into the body of the email, attach the invoices, and send.

The email that was sent included two random invoices (of the maybe 30 that were being submitted) and no cover sheet.

Ouch!  That's a pretty simple task, for sure.  It sounds to me like she really doesn't know much about computer use.  Some people, especially those who are a little older, are actually afraid of computers.  They think if they do the wrong thing the whole system will blow up in their faces and the company will cease to exist.  They're just plain scared, and they're either afraid to ask, or don't know what to ask.

I'm usually pretty straight-forward.  I'd probably sit down with her with a copy of the original instructions and a copy of what she produced.  Then, I'd ask what happened.  I'd do it gently, but I'd be straight-up about it.  "This didn't work very well and we need to figure out why.  Can you tell me how you read these instructions and came up with this document as the right way to follow them?"  This gives her an opportunity to explain why she made the mistakes she made, and it also lets her know her work wasn't satisfactory.  You might be able to uncover what her problem is this way.  I've also been known to ask an employee if they have a computer at home, or use one often.  Those who don't do well at it often are those who just don't have one or use one.

[tskeeter]

I think mmhmm has a bead on the issue.  It sounds like your temp has virtually no computer skills.  That wouldn't be terribly surprising to me if this woman was re-entering the wokrforce after the loss of a spouse.  Or after the spouse lost a job.  Overall, a poor fit for this job, or most jobs these days.  The temp service screwed up by sending you someone with her skill level.

On Gram's behalf, most of us of that vintage grew up without using computers.  Heck, I never saw a PC until I was over 30 years old, despite a college education, working in Finance at Fortune 500 companies (in most businesses, Finance was the early adopter of computing technology), and having an Uncle who was a professor in the College of Business at a fairly good sized public university.  Then, the PC was one of the original IBM PC's and there were 40 of us in the department with only one PC to share between us.  Because we were "already computer users" to some extent, most of us only got enought training to get us started.  As new versions of software packages came out, we were expected to figure out what the new features were and how to use them.  While at the same time performing more work with fewer and fewer resources.  More time getting the additional work done meant less and less time available for formal training classes.  That put us at a huge disadvantage.  Even folks with stellar computer skills in 1988 are finding themselves unfamiiar with some of the functions of the 14th generation of the software that we have used for decades.  And those young whipper snappers might as well be talking a foreign language while they breeze through instructing us on how to do things. 

So, the ball is still in your court, MidJD.  Are you going to try to help the temp develop some marketable skills, or are you going to have the temp agency send you someone with the skills to get the job done?  

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

. They think if they do the wrong thing the whole system will blow up in their faces and the company will cease to exist

Computers do that even if you know what you're doing.

Mine ate the paper I was writing and I still have no clue what happened.  Lesson learned, back up my documents on the college server.

[midjd]

So, the ball is still in your court, MidJD. Are you going to try to help the temp develop some marketable skills, or are you going to have the temp agency send you someone with the skills to get the job done?

I chose the latter.

Her lack of skills wasn't a dealbreaker - but the failure to communicate was. I asked her to do something early this afternoon and let her know it was time-sensitive and needed to be finished today. She seemed concerned that she wouldn't be able to finish it. I told her that was fine, just send me what she had and I'd finish it if needed. (Very similar to what happened last week). Once again, at 4:00 I went over to her desk and she was gone. I did it myself, but since most of the documents I needed were on her (locked) computer, it took much longer than it should have.

Computer skills can be learned (and all this job requires is Word/Excel), but if I ask you to do something today and you leave without doing it OR sending it to me to finish, I'm going to be less willing to work with you. My boss gives me urgent assignments pretty frequently and I'd never dream of leaving the office without either finishing or giving him a heads-up that I needed help.

Thanks for the advice, though - I'm definitely going to put it into play when training the next temp.

[justme]

It's one thing to not be skilled enough to complete your work by the time it's needed. It's a whole other thing to just leave the office when it's time to go and a) not tell anyone and b) not mention that you didn't get a chance to finish the job.

[mmhmm]

May 3, 2013 16:11:24 GMT -5 midjd said:

So, the ball is still in your court, MidJD. Are you going to try to help the temp develop some marketable skills, or are you going to have the temp agency send you someone with the skills to get the job done?

I chose the latter.

Her lack of skills wasn't a dealbreaker - but the failure to communicate was. I asked her to do something early this afternoon and let her know it was time-sensitive and needed to be finished today. She seemed concerned that she wouldn't be able to finish it. I told her that was fine, just send me what she had and I'd finish it if needed. (Very similar to what happened last week). Once again, at 4:00 I went over to her desk and she was gone. I did it myself, but since most of the documents I needed were on her (locked) computer, it took much longer than it should have.

Computer skills can be learned (and all this job requires is Word/Excel), but if I ask you to do something today and you leave without doing it OR sending it to me to finish, I'm going to be less willing to work with you. My boss gives me urgent assignments pretty frequently and I'd never dream of leaving the office without either finishing or giving him a heads-up that I needed help.

Thanks for the advice, though - I'm definitely going to put it into play when training the next temp.

Ouch, again!  Heck, if she's going to leave without doing a job that was given her to do, and without saying a word, she's not going to last long anywhere!  That's just unthinkable, IMO.

[Deleted]

May 3, 2013 16:11:24 GMT -5 midjd said:

So, the ball is still in your court, MidJD. Are you going to try to help the temp develop some marketable skills, or are you going to have the temp agency send you someone with the skills to get the job done?

I chose the latter.

Her lack of skills wasn't a dealbreaker - but the failure to communicate was. I asked her to do something early this afternoon and let her know it was time-sensitive and needed to be finished today. She seemed concerned that she wouldn't be able to finish it. I told her that was fine, just send me what she had and I'd finish it if needed. (Very similar to what happened last week). Once again, at 4:00 I went over to her desk and she was gone. I did it myself, but since most of the documents I needed were on her (locked) computer, it took much longer than it should have.

Computer skills can be learned (and all this job requires is Word/Excel), but if I ask you to do something today and you leave without doing it OR sending it to me to finish, I'm going to be less willing to work with you. My boss gives me urgent assignments pretty frequently and I'd never dream of leaving the office without either finishing or giving him a heads-up that I needed help.

Thanks for the advice, though - I'm definitely going to put it into play when training the next temp.

My guess is she figured out you were going to get rid of her so just did her time and left. That's pretty rude though and I'd let the temp company know.

Fingers crossed that you get a better temp the next go around. What a hassle to keep churning through these folks.

[Deleted]

Mid, at this point, I agree that you had no choice. I cannot fathom doing what she did ... not once, but twice! Unreal! Personally I think she probably felt "overwhelmed" for whatever reason, either because she was not computer literate, or because of personal reasons, and she just wanted "out".  

This said, I'm thinking about the temp agency. Somebody said that all the "good" temps leave when they find FT work, but remember, some people DO actually prefer to work PT!

Have you ever considered having your law firm advertise the job directly, rather than going through the temp agency? You could very well find someone who is happy to work PT long-term. There are a multitude of reasons that people may prefer PT work (they don't need a FT salary, they have small kids / lots of kids, they have elderly parents, they are semi-retired, whatever). 

If I were in your position, that's what I'd do; I'd try to get somebody who is happy to work PT, long-term. Short-term, it would obviously demand more of your firm's time, but long-term, maybe not.  

[Deleted]

May 3, 2013 16:27:17 GMT -5 @tbird said:

One of the things that helped me (tender hearted person that I am) when we were firing our analyst was thinking about quality, hard-working people out of work.  Someone more deserving needs the job and will gratefully do it well.

This was a perfectly-timed reminder.  I started my new job 8 months ago and almost immediately discovered one person in the unit who just wasn't performing up to par and had a really poor work ethic.  He should have been gone before I got there but he wasn't.  With good support from the boss (who had really wanted to give the guy a chance to improve but realized it wasn't gonna happen and it was turning into a morale problem among people we didn't want to lose), I fired him about a month ago.  In his wake we found promises made but not kept, incomplete work, and lies about how close he was to completing things.  It was a rough week but we cleaned up his messes and everyone is so much happier.

Today we interviewed a fantastic candidate for the position.  We're a bit shell-shocked after seeing what happens when you make a bad hiring decision, but this one has 2 internships in the field an offer from the place where he interned, so we think he's a good candidate.  If we hadn't fired the other guy he might not have made it in the door; my guess is we'll end up hiring him.

[tloonya]

It is so easy, really!
You tell her that she is not doing a good job and you considering to repalce her.
She has 2 choices. Start working or be gone! One week trial and she goes bye bye or starting to work. Why is it so hard to comprehend?

Also what ta heck is 'out paid'? Never seen it written b4.

[Regis]

May 3, 2013 13:02:36 GMT -5 midjd said:

But I doubt it's an intimidation issue (or at least I hope not! I'm pretty nice in person...)

I've had the pleasure to meet you IRL.  Pretty sure it's not an intimidation issue.  

[midjd]

May 3, 2013 18:40:26 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

May 3, 2013 16:27:17 GMT -5 @tbird said:

One of the things that helped me (tender hearted person that I am) when we were firing our analyst was thinking about quality, hard-working people out of work.  Someone more deserving needs the job and will gratefully do it well.

This was a perfectly-timed reminder.  I started my new job 8 months ago and almost immediately discovered one person in the unit who just wasn't performing up to par and had a really poor work ethic.  He should have been gone before I got there but he wasn't.  With good support from the boss (who had really wanted to give the guy a chance to improve but realized it wasn't gonna happen and it was turning into a morale problem among people we didn't want to lose), I fired him about a month ago.  In his wake we found promises made but not kept, incomplete work, and lies about how close he was to completing things.  It was a rough week but we cleaned up his messes and everyone is so much happier.

Today we interviewed a fantastic candidate for the position.  We're a bit shell-shocked after seeing what happens when you make a bad hiring decision, but this one has 2 internships in the field an offer from the place where he interned, so we think he's a good candidate.  If we hadn't fired the other guy he might not have made it in the door; my guess is we'll end up hiring him.

Great story! I hope the new guy works out, he sounds like a good fit.

Debt, I'd love to find someone who wanted PT for the long-term. I'll be out on maternity leave from Dec - Feb and having someone who can handle all the finances in my absence would be such a relief (everything else can be temporarily absorbed by my bosses). I don't want to have to worry about whether people are being paid or what messes I'll have to come back to.

Tloony, "out paid" means that the other employers are paying more than mine is and attracting all the good employees.