Fattier Milk = Slimmer Kids

[djAdvocate]

May 13, 2013 22:35:52 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Well, if you want to say the "outcome is undetermined" I guess that's technically accurate.  Since there isn't a single study linking heart disease and saturated fat and cholesterol, you can say it is "undetermined" and you would not be, um, "100% wrong".  It's kind of like man made global warming- interesting hypothesis.  Proven? Not so much...

sine the existence of God is unproven, does that make it "100% wrong"? 

actually, we can use a lot more practical examples of this.  when Einstein speculated about the energy basis of matter, he had only mathematics to prove his theory.  was it "100% wrong".

the fact that something can't be shown does not make it "100% wrong".  it makes it unproven.  give it some time.  we'll see who's right.

[Deleted]

 it makes it unproven. give it some time. we'll see who's right.

 Case in point: 2011.
 We were told by a certain poster months before the election in November that Barack Obama had no chance of attaining the Oval Office for a second term.
 The election was allegedly all sewn up, and the poster was confident that his superior intellect and infallible logic enabled him to accurately prognosticate the results of that upcoming election. 
 Remember?  "Don't doubt me. EVER."
 The Oracle and Prophet sneered at the fact that anyone could entertain the possibility that Barack Obama had even the slightest chance of winning the presidency. 

 You'd think that poster must be expert (by now) in one thing... the culinary uses of crow. Imagine his diet... from Crowquettes to Corbeau en casserole". Crowccotash. Crowquedillas. Yankee Pot Crowst.
 It might be worth his while to invest in a Set-It-And-Forget-It Crowtisserie.
 
 

[mmhmm]

May 13, 2013 23:19:29 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

May 13, 2013 22:35:52 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Well, if you want to say the "outcome is undetermined" I guess that's technically accurate.  Since there isn't a single study linking heart disease and saturated fat and cholesterol, you can say it is "undetermined" and you would not be, um, "100% wrong".  It's kind of like man made global warming- interesting hypothesis.  Proven? Not so much...

sine the existence of God is unproven, does that make it "100% wrong"? 

actually, we can use a lot more practical examples of this.  when Einstein speculated about the energy basis of matter, he had only mathematics to prove his theory.  was it "100% wrong".

the fact that something can't be shown does not make it "100% wrong".  it makes it unproven.  give it some time.  we'll see who's right.

I think what we'll see is the problem to be multi-faceted, with genetic factors, microbial factors, and metabolic factors involved. For the moment, however, and until we know more, I wouldn't bet the farm on fats (particularly triglicerides) NOT being a factor.

[djAdvocate]

May 14, 2013 1:42:38 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

May 13, 2013 23:19:29 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

sine the existence of God is unproven, does that make it "100% wrong"? 

actually, we can use a lot more practical examples of this.  when Einstein speculated about the energy basis of matter, he had only mathematics to prove his theory.  was it "100% wrong".

the fact that something can't be shown does not make it "100% wrong".  it makes it unproven.  give it some time.  we'll see who's right.

I think what we'll see is the problem to be multi-faceted, with genetic factors, microbial factors, and metabolic factors involved. For the moment, however, and until we know more, I wouldn't bet the farm on fats (particularly triglicerides) NOT being a factor.

me neither.  i think it is pretty clear that certain TYPES of fat are an issue.  but i am no dietician.

[Deleted]

 The atherosclerotic athlete and his family (and their family history) indicate that if you have the wrong genes, then even the optimum diet and the optimum level of vigorous activity don't prevent atheroscerosis.

 As for me, even though both sides of my family demonstrated tendency toward heart disease and atherosclerosis, I chose to avoid oleomargarine almost 40 years ago, opting for butter instead. I loathe 2% milk and aviod it. I drink 1/2&1/2 with my coffee, and rarely drink milk otherwise... in which instances it is whole milk. I won't eat Kool-whip, but I will eat pie crust made with shortening.
 I also never relied upon synthetic sweeteners and avoided them, even when trying to lose weight. No Sweet'n'SkinE for me, or any of those other synthetics. And no MSG. MSG gives me migraines.
 But you can't eat the occasional Oreo (or slice of chocolate cake) without milk, or, at least, I can't.
 Chocolate chip cookies don't require a milk accompaniment, but the milk... is really the finishing touch.

 But 2% milk just isn't something that I perceive as a "Human Rights" issue... until the revenue-enhancers try to tack a "sin tax" onto the price of whole milk.  

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

May 14, 2013 1:42:38 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

May 13, 2013 23:19:29 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

sine the existence of God is unproven, does that make it "100% wrong"? 

actually, we can use a lot more practical examples of this.  when Einstein speculated about the energy basis of matter, he had only mathematics to prove his theory.  was it "100% wrong".

the fact that something can't be shown does not make it "100% wrong".  it makes it unproven.  give it some time.  we'll see who's right.

I think what we'll see is the problem to be multi-faceted, with genetic factors, microbial factors, and metabolic factors involved. For the moment, however, and until we know more, I wouldn't bet the farm on fats (particularly triglicerides) NOT being a factor.

Oh, far from 'betting the farm on fats' what we have done is bet the farm (literally) on grains.  The traditional diets of most people around the world were not altered until the US Government came along and decided arbitrarily, without one shred of evidence, upon a diet steeped in the lipid hypothesis.  The so-called "paleo diet" isn't the fad diet.  The fad has been the last 40 years of the government's diet-- and the results are in. 

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

And btw- most of the problems we do have with fats are a direct result of government diet-tinkering.  Trans fats?  We have those because of an all-out assault on butter due to the government's clinging to the unproven- in fact, not even validly tested- lipid hypothesis.  We're at the point now where we are very close to being able to say the lipid hypothesis is no longer unproven, but disproved.

[mmhmm]

No, paul, we're not "at the point now where we are very close to being able to say" anything.  We've only come up with more questions. We're not anywhere close to a definitive answer at this point.  Eat what you like.  Have bacon sandwiches three times a day.  It's of no consequence to me what you eat.  However, when you babble on about incomplete studies as though they were the answer to a very complex question, I WILL correct your misconception.

Now, for me, this issue is closed.  The data is out there, folks.  Just don't stop with the one study that meets your expectation for doing as you wish.  There's a lot more to be learned and incorporated in this complex matter.

[weltschmerz]

I challenge everyone here to do something for ONE week: keep your carbohydrate intake below 100g daily, keep your daily calorie intake to 2,500 for the guys (unless you're VERY active) and 2,000 or fewer for the ladies. And do not eat ANY (as in ZERO) foods containing wheat.

You're talking Atkin's Diet here, where the body goes into ketosis. Ketosis is generally not a healthy state to be in, as it affects memory and concentration. Yes, you'll a whole lot of water weight at once...no question.
I've done it myself, and kept passing out, besides not being able to think straight.
 Good news is I wasn't hungry.

[djAdvocate]

May 15, 2013 23:22:14 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

I challenge everyone here to do something for ONE week: keep your carbohydrate intake below 100g daily, keep your daily calorie intake to 2,500 for the guys (unless you're VERY active) and 2,000 or fewer for the ladies. And do not eat ANY (as in ZERO) foods containing wheat.

You're talking Atkin's Diet here, where the body goes into ketosis. Ketosis is generally not a healthy state to be in, as it affects memory and concentration. Yes, you'll a whole lot of water weight at once...no question.
I've done it myself, and kept passing out, besides not being able to think straight.
 Good news is I wasn't hungry.

i have done it to.  terrible for your brain, imo.  i could not think straight at all.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

May 16, 2013 0:52:40 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

May 15, 2013 23:22:14 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

You're talking Atkin's Diet here, where the body goes into ketosis. Ketosis is generally not a healthy state to be in, as it affects memory and concentration. Yes, you'll a whole lot of water weight at once...no question.
I've done it myself, and kept passing out, besides not being able to think straight.
 Good news is I wasn't hungry.

i have done it to.  terrible for your brain, imo.  i could not think straight at all.

It's interesting that you both state it's terrible for your brain.  Do you have any resources I might look at to confirm the assertion?  And btw paleo isn't atkins per se.  

I ask about the brain comments, because everything I'm currently studying contradicts that statement.  The assertions I'm reading are that one of the reasons for behavioral issues like ADHD is that we've chosen to starve kids of fat and protein.  Vegetarians and vegans are much more likely to have problems concentrating than those who eat healthy portions of meat.

When I was a little less informed and overconfident-- all hopped up on conventional wisdom-- I would have sworn to anyone who asked that to lose weight you simply create a calorie deficit.  This, as it turns out is not true.  It's not merely calories- it's what your body does with those calories.  Carbohydrates break down into sugar and elevate blood sugar which in turn causes the pancreas to increase the insulin hormone into the body to metabolize the sugar.  The more carbs, the more insulin.  I think we all know this is true.  What else is interesting about insulin is that it also basically tells cells to hold fat-- to not release fat.  The reason is that the body is burning the sugar.  However, what the body really wants and needs is the fat, but the fat is trapped by the insulin.  This is why carbohydrates are addictive, and why, if you are unfortunate enough to eat a calorie restricted, low fat, high carbohydrate diet-- you rebound so often, and are constantly hungry.  It's why many people give up, and just eat and get fat.  It's why so many people are constantly tired, exhausted, and hungry.  It's why so many people eat past to, or even past the point where they are miserably full.  Your body will stay hungry until it gets what it needs.  Period.  And if all you do is shovel in the carbs, avoiding the fat-- fat will store in your cells, you'll gain weight, and you will eventually develop insulin resistance and diabetes like so many people already have. 

[Deleted]

People can lose weight and "get in shape" on a lot of different diets.  But in general, all diets pretty much suck when measured when you look out 12 months or so.

[mmhmm]

May 15, 2013 10:31:19 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

And btw- most of the problems we do have with fats are a direct result of government diet-tinkering.  Trans fats?  We have those because of an all-out assault on butter due to the government's clinging to the unproven- in fact, not even validly tested- lipid hypothesis.  We're at the point now where we are very close to being able to say the lipid hypothesis is no longer unproven, but disproved.

No.  We're not "very close" to anything of the sort, paul.  Eat what you want.  I don't care.  Just don't babble on about atherosclerosis and diet when you don't have a freaking clue what you're talking about.  You read an article, or six.  Good for you.  Now, pick up one of the Harry Potter novels.  You'll get just about as much out of it.

[mmhmm]

May 16, 2013 22:00:32 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

May 16, 2013 0:52:40 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i have done it to.  terrible for your brain, imo.  i could not think straight at all.

It's interesting that you both state it's terrible for your brain.  Do you have any resources I might look at to confirm the assertion?  And btw paleo isn't atkins per se.  

I ask about the brain comments, because everything I'm currently studying contradicts that statement.  The assertions I'm reading are that one of the reasons for behavioral issues like ADHD is that we've chosen to starve kids of fat and protein.  Vegetarians and vegans are much more likely to have problems concentrating than those who eat healthy portions of meat.

When I was a little less informed and overconfident-- all hopped up on conventional wisdom-- I would have sworn to anyone who asked that to lose weight you simply create a calorie deficit.  This, as it turns out is not true.  It's not merely calories- it's what your body does with those calories.  Carbohydrates break down into sugar and elevate blood sugar which in turn causes the pancreas to increase the insulin hormone into the body to metabolize the sugar.  The more carbs, the more insulin.  I think we all know this is true.  What else is interesting about insulin is that it also basically tells cells to hold fat-- to not release fat.  The reason is that the body is burning the sugar.  However, what the body really wants and needs is the fat, but the fat is trapped by the insulin.  This is why carbohydrates are addictive, and why, if you are unfortunate enough to eat a calorie restricted, low fat, high carbohydrate diet-- you rebound so often, and are constantly hungry.  It's why many people give up, and just eat and get fat.  It's why so many people are constantly tired, exhausted, and hungry.  It's why so many people eat past to, or even past the point where they are miserably full.  Your body will stay hungry until it gets what it needs.  Period.  And if all you do is shovel in the carbs, avoiding the fat-- fat will store in your cells, you'll gain weight, and you will eventually develop insulin resistance and diabetes like so many people already have. 

Paul, everything you eat breaks down into sugar.  Glucose is that on which the brain feeds.  It's how fast the various sources are converted to sugar that makes the difference.  Refined sugar is converted fastest, followed by carbohydrates, followed by proteins.

Vegan kids don't have any more problems concentrating than anybody else.  Blood glucose that's too low will cause such problems, as will blood glucose that's too high.  The brain likes a balance, and would much prefer we browse our food rather than eat large portions at once.  A balanced diet eaten in several small meals a day is the best way to go, if you can.  Not everyone can, what with work and responsibilities, but that's the optimum.  The brain is happiest with about 25 grams of glucose circulating at any given time.

Frankly, all these fads ... including paleo ... are NOT what they're cracked up to be.  They all prove, over time, to be nonsense.  Genetics is in play, along with diet, exercise and metabolism.

[djAdvocate]

May 16, 2013 22:00:32 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

May 16, 2013 0:52:40 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i have done it to.  terrible for your brain, imo.  i could not think straight at all.

It's interesting that you both state it's terrible for your brain.  . 

anecdotal.  i have no data whatsoever.  but i was on the diet, and i had to quit it because of concentration issues.  if others don't have that problem, bully for them.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

May 16, 2013 23:20:34 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

May 16, 2013 22:00:32 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

It's interesting that you both state it's terrible for your brain.  Do you have any resources I might look at to confirm the assertion?  And btw paleo isn't atkins per se.  

I ask about the brain comments, because everything I'm currently studying contradicts that statement.  The assertions I'm reading are that one of the reasons for behavioral issues like ADHD is that we've chosen to starve kids of fat and protein.  Vegetarians and vegans are much more likely to have problems concentrating than those who eat healthy portions of meat.

When I was a little less informed and overconfident-- all hopped up on conventional wisdom-- I would have sworn to anyone who asked that to lose weight you simply create a calorie deficit.  This, as it turns out is not true.  It's not merely calories- it's what your body does with those calories.  Carbohydrates break down into sugar and elevate blood sugar which in turn causes the pancreas to increase the insulin hormone into the body to metabolize the sugar.  The more carbs, the more insulin.  I think we all know this is true.  What else is interesting about insulin is that it also basically tells cells to hold fat-- to not release fat.  The reason is that the body is burning the sugar.  However, what the body really wants and needs is the fat, but the fat is trapped by the insulin.  This is why carbohydrates are addictive, and why, if you are unfortunate enough to eat a calorie restricted, low fat, high carbohydrate diet-- you rebound so often, and are constantly hungry.  It's why many people give up, and just eat and get fat.  It's why so many people are constantly tired, exhausted, and hungry.  It's why so many people eat past to, or even past the point where they are miserably full.  Your body will stay hungry until it gets what it needs.  Period.  And if all you do is shovel in the carbs, avoiding the fat-- fat will store in your cells, you'll gain weight, and you will eventually develop insulin resistance and diabetes like so many people already have. 

Paul, everything you eat breaks down into sugar.  Glucose is that on which the brain feeds.  It's how fast the various sources are converted to sugar that makes the difference.  Refined sugar is converted fastest, followed by carbohydrates, followed by proteins.

Vegan kids don't have any more problems concentrating than anybody else.  Blood glucose that's too low will cause such problems, as will blood glucose that's too high.  The brain likes a balance, and would much prefer we browse our food rather than eat large portions at once.  A balanced diet eaten in several small meals a day is the best way to go, if you can.  Not everyone can, what with work and responsibilities, but that's the optimum.  The brain is happiest with about 25 grams of glucose circulating at any given time.

Frankly, all these fads ... including paleo ... are NOT what they're cracked up to be.  They all prove, over time, to be nonsense.  Genetics is in play, along with diet, exercise and metabolism.

Ultimately, yes.  Everything is broken down into glucose.  Proteins, fats, carbohydrates all break down to energy the body can use- glucose.  However, how the body metabolizes each- and how each effects the body is NOT the same.  I think you know this- so don't take this as implying you don't.  I just wanted to offer the additional clarification that "a calorie is a calorie" is not accurate.  If it were, we wouldn't have diabetes at all.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

I also agree that heredity / genes have more to do with health than probably anything.

[Deleted]

I've been using The Plan system (although not the exact menus) from lyn genet Recitas, exploring what food work best or your individual body, reducing inflammation... Started in February. Never felt better, down 17 lbs. 

my mom started it a month or so ago, says she doesn't have one rash on her body... She can't remember the last time she isn't have one at all. 

Foods can make us ill. For me, the less processed, the more real foods, the better...

honestly, who came up with the idea that we should eat more chemicals? Process everything to death...

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

May 17, 2013 17:43:31 GMT -5 oped said:

I've been using The Plan system (although not the exact menus) from lyn genet Recitas, exploring what food work best or your individual body, reducing inflammation... Started in February. Never felt better, down 17 lbs. 

my mom started it a month or so ago, says she doesn't have one rash on her body... She can't remember the last time she isn't have one at all. 

Foods can make us ill. For me, the less processed, the more real foods, the better...

honestly, who came up with the idea that we should eat more chemicals? Process everything to death...

I believe this was most likely something that came about in ramping up for and fighting WWII.  We needed a way to feed soldiers in the field efficiently and with minimal spoilage.  It's just a guess, but it makes sense to me.