Breaking: Huge Explosions at AL Shipyard

[mmhmm]

...and I notice you did not ask EVT to provide evident on post #2 regarding corporate laxes in safety procedures.

EVT didn't claim there were such things.  All he said was that might be what the article in the OP was about.

[billisonboard]

Apr 25, 2013 12:33:02 GMT -5 Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ said:

...
....and I notice you did not ask EVT to provide evident on post #2 regarding corporate laxes in safety procedures.
...

There is a difference between asking the question and claiming it happened.

[mmhmm]

Apr 25, 2013 12:50:10 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 25, 2013 12:33:02 GMT -5 Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ said:

...
....and I notice you did not ask EVT to provide evident on post #2 regarding corporate laxes in safety procedures.
...

There is a difference between asking the question and claiming it happened.

Exactly.  I must say, I'm a bit nonplussed to find Savoir Faire would try to blame others for his failure to back up his contentions.  He seems to find it necessary to point at EVT, or at me, instead of examining his own lacks.  Why is that, SF?

[djAdvocate]

Apr 25, 2013 12:45:11 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Usually shit will not explode if you are following adequate safety practices.  And there was a question mark after that statement making a point you missed.  But is there really a need to point out the numerous explosions that occur because of weak corporate safety rules?  It is kind of a given. 

indeed.  2 accidents in a month.  same state, right?

[Tennesseer]

DJ-Alabama barge explosion last night.  The fertilizer factory in Texas last week (if that is what you are referring to).

[Deleted]

Proper safety procedures prevent static discharge. One way or another, there was a screw up. Although EVT1's implication of lax attitudes toward safety is total bs as usual. Big evil corporations do far better with safety than small ones do. An accident doesn't automatically mean lax safety standards.

[EVT1]

Apr 25, 2013 16:54:55 GMT -5 @investorbob said:

Proper safety procedures prevent static discharge. One way or another, there was a screw up. Although EVT1's implication of lax attitudes toward safety is total bs as usual. Big evil corporations do far better with safety than small ones do. An accident doesn't automatically mean lax safety standards.

Are you freaking kidding me?  It is not a lax attitude over safety- it is a preference for profit over it.  Some corporations do well but it is by no means the norm.  Be happy no one was killed this time- that isn't always the case.

[djAdvocate]

Apr 25, 2013 16:50:00 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

DJ-Alabama barge explosion last night.  The fertilizer factory in Texas last week (if that is what you are referring to).

right.  never mind. 

[Deleted]

Evt1. Please back up your statement with facts. Right after you back up your claim that having cops at schools doesn't stop shootings. What is it with you and wild, baseless accusations? You don't put up with it when others do it, but you think you can do it?

Quit wasting bandwidth.

[Deleted]

EVT didn't claim there were such things. All he said was that might be what the article in the OP was about.

EVT1 has now makde the claim.  Will there be the same insistence that he back up what he said as would be asked of PBP to back up some of the crazy things he said?

ibob- large corporations may well have the resources to operate safely, but their individual cultures determine to what extent they do.

Yes.  But overall, large companies do a much better job with safety than small ones do.  It's a fact.  Take hazardous liquid pipelines for example.  There has been a big push over the past few years to put pipelines in the hands of large operators.  The result of this and other efforts has been significant improvements in safety.  And pipelines were pretty safe to begin with.

EVT1 is making statements he cannot back up.

And individual workers, who have more skin in the game than does upper management (i.e. they are paid a lot less and are the ones actually risking their lives), also bear responsibility for safety shortcuts.  It's human nature to take these sorts of risks when the odds of an accident are perceived to be small.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Apr 25, 2013 12:45:11 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Usually shit will not explode if you are following adequate safety practices.  And there was a question mark after that statement making a point you missed.  But is there really a need to point out the numerous explosions that occur because of weak corporate safety rules?  It is kind of a given. 

*yawn*

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Apr 25, 2013 15:58:49 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Apr 25, 2013 12:45:11 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Usually shit will not explode if you are following adequate safety practices.  And there was a question mark after that statement making a point you missed.  But is there really a need to point out the numerous explosions that occur because of weak corporate safety rules?  It is kind of a given. 

indeed.  2 accidents in a month.  same state, right?

Yeah- Texas and Alabama are the same state to those of you in the death spiral state of CA.

[djAdvocate]

Apr 26, 2013 6:50:33 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Apr 25, 2013 15:58:49 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

indeed.  2 accidents in a month.  same state, right?

Yeah- Texas and Alabama are the same state to those of you in the death spiral state of CA.

those were not the two events i was confusing, Paul.  it was the event in AL and THIS one, which i had been reading about recently:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_City_disaster

the reason i got confused is that this disaster has stuff in common with both the AL and the TX case. 

but yeah, i do tend to think of AL and TX as kindof the same "red state" thing.  you know: deregulation and lack of oversight fixes everything.

[EVT1]

Apr 26, 2013 6:28:39 GMT -5 @investorbob said:

EVT didn't claim there were such things. All he said was that might be what the article in the OP was about.

EVT1 has now makde the claim.  Will there be the same insistence that he back up what he said as would be asked of PBP to back up some of the crazy things he said?

ibob- large corporations may well have the resources to operate safely, but their individual cultures determine to what extent they do.

Yes.  But overall, large companies do a much better job with safety than small ones do.  It's a fact.  Take hazardous liquid pipelines for example.  There has been a big push over the past few years to put pipelines in the hands of large operators.  The result of this and other efforts has been significant improvements in safety.  And pipelines were pretty safe to begin with.

EVT1 is making statements he cannot back up.

And individual workers, who have more skin in the game than does upper management (i.e. they are paid a lot less and are the ones actually risking their lives), also bear responsibility for safety shortcuts.  It's human nature to take these sorts of risks when the odds of an accident are perceived to be small.

Give it a rest IBOB you know damn well I can back it up- I didn't know I needed to cite proof of general knowledge- and am insulted you put that statement on par with PBP's posts from the alter-Earth.

Start with the mining industry and their safety records.  In fact you can add pollution into it as well as poisoning people is something I would consider unsafe. If you really want a link to these incidents that never happen how about the recent mine explosion that killed 29:

www.msha.gov/MEDIA/PRESS/2011/NR111206.asp

    The investigation followed an explosion that killed 29 miners and injured two at the worst U.S. coal mining disaster in 40 years. A report concludes that Massey's corporate culture was the root cause of the tragedy. MSHA has issued Massey and PCC 369 citations and orders, including for an unprecedented 21 flagrant violations, which carry the most serious civil penalties available under the law

This particular one could be an accident, i.e. a screw-up by someone that did not follow the rules, and I did not claim that it was not.

Give you a little insider info- the courts in this country are packed full of companies soon to pay out damages over their lack of safe operation and the other ones are bankrupt.  Every day.  Common knowledge for people who do not have their nose up corporate America's ass. Put please tell us all how this was an isolated incident.

[EVT1]

Apr 26, 2013 5:34:42 GMT -5 @investorbob said:

Evt1. Please back up your statement with facts. Right after you back up your claim that having cops at schools doesn't stop shootings. What is it with you and wild, baseless accusations? You don't put up with it when others do it, but you think you can do it?

Quit wasting bandwidth.

I did back it up-  you just didn't like the answer.  See the gun thread.

[Deleted]

Start with the mining industry and their safety records.

As lawyer, I suspect you fully understand that cherry-picking data is what you do when you think the people listening to you are stuipd or gullible.  Here is an unbiased metric of safety: www.msdsonline.com/blog/2012/10/preliminary-cfoi-data-show-a-slight-decrease-in-workplace-fatalities-in-2011/

As you can see, workplace fatalities have been steadily declining for at least 20 years, even as the size of the workforce grows.

I did back it up- you just didn't like the answer. See the gun thread.

No you didn't.  All you said was that you are not aware of a time when a shooter didn't shoot due to the presence of an armed guard and that shooters have still shot at schools with armed guards.  As a lawyer who knows how to prove a point, you are fully aware that this doesn't mean squat.  Show me that schools with armed guards have the same or more shootings as schools that don't.  Show me that shooters at schools with armed guards are just as successful as shooters at schools where there are no armed guards.  Show me that armed guards don't do anything to slow their progress or reduce the number or severity of injuries.

Show me data to back up your claim.  Do it without cherry-picking.  And you don't get to even use Columbine as an example, since tactics and strategies have changed significantly as a result of that shooting incident.

[EVT1]

Workplace fatalities should be dropping- and I don't argue that they are.  I agreed with you that plenty of companies do the right thing to the point of having safety directors/officers- but for every one covering all of the bases there is another willing to cut corners because they came to the conclusion that it is worth the risk- and in smaller businesses it is a lot more prevalant.  I am not calling anyone stupid or gullible- it is what it is.  Next time you are traveling find a truck stop and walk around and look at the tires and come back and tell me how concerned for safety these companies really are.  We have had planes crash because of shortcuts in maintenance and if anyone should be hardcore on safety it should be airlines- but they are not.  It is all cost/benefit in some of these places.  This recent fertilizer plant broke regulations- why?  Because they stood to make some money and they thought the risk was negligible- and they were wrong.  That is why after PBP posted this explosion link I thought it was at more likely due to shitty practices than a Muslim bomber.

I cannot prove that armed police in schools do not stop some mass shooters or lessen their damage- only show that it has not stopped shootings in particular incidents.  You can't prove a negative.  The burden is on those that claim that they do.  We are down to whether they are effective enough to justify their presence.  So far there is no proof they make a difference.  A high cap mag ban is millions of dollars cheaper and I argue would be more effective.  Why not do both if we have the same goal?  But some of us don't- their goal stops short of touching gun laws- anything but gun laws.  I think it is terrible.  I think they are terrible people.