Are some schools failing due to lack of money or environment

[Politically_Incorrect12]

I mentioned in another post a conversation I had with a co-worker and thought I'd get some interesting insight from other posters on the subject.  We were discussing schools and rankings based on test scores, etc.  We then got to discussing how much of these schools doing so well resulted not so much from the money in those areas, as being in an area where people make more money makes it more likely that one or both parents have a higher level of education, which makes it more likely they have the ability to help their children with their homework.  It also makes it more likely that they will be surrounded by other kids with the eventual goal of going to college.  OTOH, in lower income areas, there is a good possibility that the parents may not have the education level to be able to help their children with their homework past a certain level.  There is also a good chance that kids in those areas will be surrounded by parents who did not get a higher level of education, and be surrounded by other kids who may not have the goal of going to college.  So ultimately, what is the answer as throwing more money to schools may be the politically convenient answer, but ultimately doesn't address the underlying issues of why a school may be "failing." 

What are some of your thoughts on the subject?

[billisonboard]

If they throw money at the school and it sits on the ground surrounding the school, it will have no impact on the school.  If money is invested in programs such as tutoring, educational/career counseling, and things like field trips to universities, then it does address the underlying issues you discuss.

[thyme4change]

Sounds like helicopter parenting.  At some point "all those parents" should let every one of their kids turn in what they perceived as the assignment.  If they get it wrong (or they all get it wrong) the teacher will learn to be more clear.  At some point, you have to let the kids learn.  Their constant interference with the process is the beginnings of why some people are writing their kid's high school term papers.  Now is a great time to let that kid stumble a little.  

[Politically_Incorrect12]

Apr 10, 2013 9:44:26 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

If they throw money at the school and it sits on the ground surrounding the school, it will have no impact on the school.  If money is invested in programs such as tutoring, educational/career counseling, and things like field trips to universities, then it does address the underlying issues you discuss.

Yes and no....lots of these things are offered in "failing" schools to those who are interesting in them, so the answer to just throw more money at it isn't the answer there either.  The point is that there has to be a cultural change for these programs to be effective.  If you are in an area where education is not valued, these programs will be ineffective.  I'm not saying I have the right answer, I'm not even saying these programs aren't important, just saying that throwing money isn't the only issue like some would like to pretend.

[jkapp]

Apr 10, 2013 9:44:26 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

If they throw money at the school and it sits on the ground surrounding the school, it will have no impact on the school.  If money is invested in programs such as tutoring, educational/career counseling, and things like field trips to universities, then it does address the underlying issues you discuss.

And right now, over 80% of school expenditures for payroll and benefits for staff.  The unions give schools very little wiggle room to add additional tax dollars for such programs. 

[Politically_Incorrect12]

Apr 10, 2013 9:48:11 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Sounds like helicopter parenting.  At some point "all those parents" should let every one of their kids turn in what they perceived as the assignment.  If they get it wrong (or they all get it wrong) the teacher will learn to be more clear.  At some point, you have to let the kids learn.  Their constant interference with the process is the beginnings of why some people are writing their kid's high school term papers.  Now is a great time to let that kid stumble a little.  

You can let your kid do the assignment and help where needed without doing the assignment for the kid.  I do agree with my co-worker though as all my college classes had a syllabus and the professor rarely had an issue with clarifying if we didn't understand something, so saying a grade school kid needs to be more responsible than what college students are expected to be seems a bit silly to me. 

[billisonboard]

Apr 10, 2013 9:50:49 GMT -5 Politically_Incorrect12 said:

Apr 10, 2013 9:44:26 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

If they throw money at the school and it sits on the ground surrounding the school, it will have no impact on the school.  If money is invested in programs such as tutoring, educational/career counseling, and things like field trips to universities, then it does address the underlying issues you discuss.

Yes and no....lots of these things are offered in "failing" schools to those who are interesting in them, so the answer to just throw more money at it isn't the answer there either.  The point is that there has to be a cultural change for these programs to be effective. 

How do you create cultural change?

[Politically_Incorrect12]

Apr 10, 2013 9:56:58 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 10, 2013 9:50:49 GMT -5 Politically_Incorrect12 said:

Yes and no....lots of these things are offered in "failing" schools to those who are interesting in them, so the answer to just throw more money at it isn't the answer there either.  The point is that there has to be a cultural change for these programs to be effective. 

How do you create cultural change?

There is the issue we should be discussing IMO.

[thyme4change]

I have two kids in grade school and haven't seen a syllabus yet.  And we have had some top notch teachers.  This isn't college.  Assignments come in daily or weekly.  And the child needs to learn to write them down and execute them.  However, the parents aren't letting that happen because they are calling around getting clarification.  My son came up with a lack of understanding of an assignment, and you know what I told him.

"Go to the teacher and talk to her about the assignment.  What questions do you want to ask her?"  And then we made a list of questions.  My kid came home the next day with clarity AND a sense of accomplishment.  He owns his homework.  Yes, I could have called another mother, or even the teacher - but what's the point of that?  I already passed third grade.  It is now my son's turn to do the work.

[thyme4change]

How do you create cultural change?

One thing is to set expectations and hold people to them.

The expectations here are that kids are to learn how to write down an assignment and execute it.  If they don't understand the assignment, they need to work with the teacher until they do.  But, your friends are fucking that up.[/span]

[fairlycrazy23]

there is currently tons of money being thrown at education, and most of the time even the amount being spent is under reported because a lot of capital projects are not associated back to 'per student' spending.
So I don't think you can say it is from lack of money.

[billisonboard]

Apr 10, 2013 9:34:26 GMT -5 Politically_Incorrect12 said:

.. He had mentioned that his son was in an advanced math class at one of these schools and it seemed like he and his wife were teaching his son more than the teacher, and if they couldn't remember how to do something the teacher would just give them a video link on how to do the problem. ...

Apr 10, 2013 9:57:38 GMT -5 Politically_Incorrect12 said:

Apr 10, 2013 9:56:58 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

How do you create cultural change?

There is the issue we should be discussing IMO.

Cultural change: Pay teachers what top notch professionals in other fields are paid so you have people who can teach advanced math classes well.

[Politically_Incorrect12]

Apr 10, 2013 9:59:24 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I have two kids in grade school and haven't seen a syllabus yet.  And we have had some top notch teachers.  This isn't college.  Assignments come in daily or weekly.  And the child needs to learn to write them down and execute them.  However, the parents aren't letting that happen because they are calling around getting clarification.  My son came up with a lack of understanding of an assignment, and you know what I told him.

"Go to the teacher and talk to her about the assignment.  What questions do you want to ask her?"  And then we made a list of questions.  My kid came home the next day with clarity AND a sense of accomplishment.  He owns his homework.  Yes, I could have called another mother, or even the teacher - but what's the point of that?  I already passed third grade.  It is now my son's turn to do the work.

We'll agree to disagree on this one.  I'm guessing his kid is reasonably intelligent if he's in advanced math, and my understanding is the school they go to is one of the best in the state.  If nobody really seems to understand the assignment, there is an issue.  People say they want parents to be involved, but then to say that the young grade school kids need to be better about writing down the assignment and executing it and the teacher shouldn't be bothered with making sure the kids and parents understand the assignment, isn't the right answer.  If you want the parents to be involved, then IMO you need to help make sure they understand what their children are supposed to be doing.

[Politically_Incorrect12]

Apr 10, 2013 10:06:21 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 10, 2013 9:34:26 GMT -5 Politically_Incorrect12 said:

.. He had mentioned that his son was in an advanced math class at one of these schools and it seemed like he and his wife were teaching his son more than the teacher, and if they couldn't remember how to do something the teacher would just give them a video link on how to do the problem. ...

Apr 10, 2013 9:57:38 GMT -5 Politically_Incorrect12 said:

There is the issue we should be discussing IMO.

Cultural change: Pay teachers what top notch professionals in other fields are paid so you have people who can teach advanced math classes well.

What exactly do you consider to be "top notch professionals in other fields?" Top notch professionals in other fields get paid based on performance, teachers don't seem to necessarily want that overall. Top notch professionals often start a lower levels and work their way up, are you suggesting that teachers start out at a level that others had to work their way up to attain? I don't know that teachers are underpaid, and I realize that some will disagree, but most people I seem to talk to think they should be paid more for what they do (it doesn't seem to matter the field).

[thyme4change]

If half the class failed an assignment because they didn't understand it - the teacher would know it was her.  Right now, it is just a bunch of obnoxious parents complaining about her, when they are all doing fine.  They are compensating for her shortcomings so she doesn't have to face them.  

[Politically_Incorrect12]

Apr 10, 2013 10:13:00 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

If half the class failed an assignment because they didn't understand it - the teacher would know it was her.  Right now, it is just a bunch of obnoxious parents complaining about her, when they are all doing fine.  They are compensating for her shortcomings so she doesn't have to face them.  

So let your kid fail because of the teacher's shortcomings?  Again, if you want parents to be more involved, then they need to know what their kids are supposed to be doing.  Like I said, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

[jkapp]

Apr 10, 2013 10:06:21 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 10, 2013 9:34:26 GMT -5 Politically_Incorrect12 said:

.. He had mentioned that his son was in an advanced math class at one of these schools and it seemed like he and his wife were teaching his son more than the teacher, and if they couldn't remember how to do something the teacher would just give them a video link on how to do the problem. ...

Apr 10, 2013 9:57:38 GMT -5 Politically_Incorrect12 said:

There is the issue we should be discussing IMO.

Cultural change: Pay teachers what top notch professionals in other fields are paid so you have people who can teach advanced math classes well.

And when schools/kids are still failing, then what?  Start paying bonuses in hopes that will change something?

[thyme4change]

Apr 10, 2013 10:14:24 GMT -5 Politically_Incorrect12 said:

Apr 10, 2013 10:13:00 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

If half the class failed an assignment because they didn't understand it - the teacher would know it was her.  Right now, it is just a bunch of obnoxious parents complaining about her, when they are all doing fine.  They are compensating for her shortcomings so she doesn't have to face them.  

So let your kid fail because of the teacher's shortcomings?  Again, if you want parents to be more involved, then they need to know what their kids are supposed to be doing.

One or two assignments won't ruin their lives.  Seriously.  It is grade school.  

[Politically_Incorrect12]

I don't have the answer on how to promote cultural changes in an area where education isn't valued, but I do think the politically convenient answer of "they just need more money" is too simplified.

[thyme4change]

Sounds like the parents want the school run like a college.  And we all know that parents know everything about educating large groups of kids.  So, just do whatever the parents want.

[Politically_Incorrect12]

Apr 10, 2013 10:22:00 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Sounds like the parents want the school run like a college.  And we all know that parents know everything about educating large groups of kids.  So, just do whatever the parents want.

Or maybe he wants to know what his son should be doing to keep him accountable...you know the whole parenting thing.  It sounds like you want to hold your child accountable as well, you both just have a different idea of how to best do it.  I'll find out soon enough when my kids are old enough to go to school what type of parent I'll be in that situation.   But do you think that failing schools are due more to lack of money or the environment?

[billisonboard]

Apr 10, 2013 10:14:48 GMT -5 jkapp said:

Apr 10, 2013 10:06:21 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Cultural change: Pay teachers what top notch professionals in other fields are paid so you have people who can teach advanced math classes well.

And when schools/kids are still failing, then what?  Start paying bonuses in hopes that will change something?

Come on, we aren't talking about Corporate America here.

[fairlycrazy23]

Apr 10, 2013 10:06:21 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 10, 2013 9:34:26 GMT -5 Politically_Incorrect12 said:

.. He had mentioned that his son was in an advanced math class at one of these schools and it seemed like he and his wife were teaching his son more than the teacher, and if they couldn't remember how to do something the teacher would just give them a video link on how to do the problem. ...

Apr 10, 2013 9:57:38 GMT -5 Politically_Incorrect12 said:

There is the issue we should be discussing IMO.

Cultural change: Pay teachers what top notch professionals in other fields are paid so you have people who can teach advanced math classes well.

I think teachers have resisted pay based on 'notching' .

And teachers seem fairly well paid from these reports:

www.bls.gov/news.release/ecec.t04.htm
www.bls.gov/news.release/ecec.t05.htm

[thyme4change]

Mostly environment.  But the failing schools aren't where there is parent involvement.  You said yourself that the example you posted was one gifted glass at the best school in the state.  I feel that is a horrible example to discuss a failing school.

Failing schools have more problems than a few parents getting their panties in a wad about a couple of assignments.  Let's talk about real problems in real failing schools.

[billisonboard]

Apr 10, 2013 10:26:24 GMT -5 Politically_Incorrect12 said:

... But do you think that failing schools are due more to lack of money or the environment?

Failing schools are due to an environment in which there is a lack of financial resources to create a different environment. Pumping resources into that environment is a way to improve that situation.

[Politically_Incorrect12]

Apr 10, 2013 10:34:39 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Mostly environment.  But the failing schools aren't where there is parent involvement.  You said yourself that the example you posted was one gifted glass at the best school in the state.  I feel that is a horrible example to discuss a failing school.

Failing schools have more problems than a few parents getting their panties in a wad about a couple of assignments.  Let's talk about real problems in real failing schools.

The purpose of the discussion was based on the idea that schools from better off areas generally have higher educated parents, pushing their kids to do the same, with the ability to help their kids with their homework.  OTOH in areas where parents may have lower education levels, kids aren't being surrounded by other kids with the goal of going to college, etc. will have an effect.  So ultimately we were saying that the main issues seem to revolve more around the environment than money.  The example that I deleted from the OP basically was saying environment seems to be the bigger issue and that just throwing money at schools is too simplified an answer and not really addressing the "real problem in real failing schools."  So ultimately that was the purpose of the OP to discuss if people felt the issue was more from lack of money or the environment and how best to address it.

[Politically_Incorrect12]

Apr 10, 2013 10:37:32 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 10, 2013 10:26:24 GMT -5 Politically_Incorrect12 said:

... But do you think that failing schools are due more to lack of money or the environment?

Failing schools are due to an environment in which there is a lack of financial resources to create a different environment. Pumping resources into that environment is a way to improve that situation.

How?  As I've said many "failing schools" have programs geared at helping address some of the environmental issues, but in an environment where education may not be as valued, you can't make people utilize these programs (after school tuturing, etc).

[billisonboard]

Apr 10, 2013 10:40:12 GMT -5 Politically_Incorrect12 said:

... just throwing money at schools is too simplified an answer ...

Clearly "just throwing money ... is too simplified an answer." No one is suggesting "just throwing money".

[thyme4change]

If a child doesn't value education, the amount of learning will be lower.  I'm wondering if there really is anything we can do to change that.  It is very hard to change the values of someone.  Especially if their family and their entire neighborhood share an opposite value.  That is why so many people can't keep the weight off, and most Christians are born and raised not converted.  

I'm all for making sure the opportunity is there for people who want their kids to get an education - even if they didn't have one.  But at some point, we can't force kids to learn.  

[Deleted]

Apr 10, 2013 10:33:31 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 10, 2013 10:14:48 GMT -5 jkapp said:

And when schools/kids are still failing, then what?  Start paying bonuses in hopes that will change something?

Come on, we aren't talking about Corporate America here.

no....in corporate america, you actually get FIRED for under performance

and you are held accountable 

can you say the same for teachers?