Death Cert.

[InsertCoolName]

I've tried reading Pub. 559. 3 times now.

I do not see where it states that I need to send a death cert. with the return.

Am I missing it? Or do they really not need a copy of it?

thanks.

[wvugurl26]

My grandpa died in 2008 and I did my grandma's return for that year. I did not send a death certificate. I believe I put deceased and date of death somewhere on the return though.

[thyme4change]

I think in general, they don't want a bunch of extra paperwork.  An ex-IRS employee told me that once, so I use it as a rule of thumb - when in doubt, leave it out.  If they don't believe you, or their records show something different, they will contact you, or worse, audit you.  So, you might want to just make a copy and keep it with your records for this year.  That way you've got it all in one place.

[InsertCoolName]

I have 2 of them already. I will have to order another one for life insurance as they require a cause of death to be listed.

I called the irs directly and the 'agent' I got didn't know shit. She kept putting me on hold, while she looked it up. And then came back with something about how to sign the return. And she was reading it, so she sounded like a robot. I just said thanks and hung up. Figured I would get a real answer here lol

I'm just trying to save some money. At $25 per that adds up fast.

[mwcpa]

if you are claiming a "refund" from a person who passed away you need to complete a form 1310
www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1310.pdf

[Wisconsin Beth]

mwcpa, it's her husband who passed recently. 

[wvugurl26]

I don't know if it would still apply to a joint refund or not. My grandma owed big time after all the life insurance payouts.

[mwcpa]

"mwcpa, it's her husband who passed recently."
For a surving spouse you note the date of passing for the spouse who passed and merely sign as "surving spouse."  No other form is required.  (I would though note yuor name as "taxpayer" in case it was the second in the past)


"My grandma owed big time after all the life insurance payouts"
Life insurance proceeds are generally not taxable income... now if the life insurance company was paying out an annuity that's different since it is not life insurance.

[TheOtherMe]

Jan 24, 2013 13:15:58 GMT -5 InsertCoolName said:

I called the irs directly and the 'agent' I got didn't know shit. She kept putting me on hold, while she looked it up. And then came back with something about how to sign the return. And she was reading it, so she sounded like a robot. I just said thanks and hung up. Figured I would get a real answer here lol

In defense of the IRS, you were not speaking with an agent.  You were most likely speaking with a low paid seasonal employee who answers questions during tax seasons.  This is an unusual question, not the can I claim my kid on my tax return type question they get a thousand times a day.  

I was on the Intuit website today just to look at the questions being asked.  At least 90% of those people should not be preparing their returns themselves.  

[grits]

I remember filing my aunt's final return.  The IRS sent me a certified letter wanting to know why she had not filed a return the next year.  I had to send them 2 more certified  letters, and call to get them to go back and look at the last return.  The last agent I got on the phone was so helpful.  She fixed it all, and I never had another problem.
I went through the same thing with medicare.  I finally got an older more knowledgable agent.  She told me to write a letter, and ask them to re-examine the claim, reprocess it, and that the person was deceased.  It fixed it.  I then called the hospital to see what I had to pay that was still owed by the estate.  They told me to not worry about it.  It had been written off as a loss.  I said No.  I want to pay it.  So, they dug up the paperwork, and I went in to pay it myself.  The woman was totally stunned. 
Sometimes, you have to keep digging around until you can find the right person to give you the correct answer.
I hope you get it all solved really soon.  I know it will be a load off of both your minds.

[mwcpa]

Grits.... often when someone passes away assets are not properly transfered into the name of the estate and as a result the IRS gets 1099 and other tax reporting in the name of the person who passed away.  When the IRS adds up the reported income it is close to the level that would require a tax filing.  That is the reason it is advisable to file a tax return for the year of passing, clearly note the date the person passed (job for the administrator / executor/executrix).

You also, are not required to pay the debts of the person who passed, unless there was a transfer liability issue.  But, there is no legal responsibility to pay the debts of a person who passed away by any third party (it is the assets of the person who passed that pays debts).  By example.  If X passed away and owed a hospital 100,000.  X had no assets.  I was a friend/family member of X.  The hospital called me, threatened me, etc.  I am not obligated to pay a dime, heck, a penny.  To have remitted that would be foolish, unless there was a transfer of assets to you that the debtor could look to.

[wvugurl26]

I don't remember the specifics but we received 1099s from all three policies and they had to be included in income. The state tax bill was particularly nasty as no state taxes were withheld from the payouts.

Some may have been annuities and one may have been bought through work with pre tax dollars.

The whole situation was a mess and we were waiting by the mailbox as my tax professor calls it. There was no will and two of the life insurance policies were a big surprise to us.

[Deleted]

> I've tried reading Pub. 559. 3 times now.  I do not see where it states that I need to send a death cert. with the return.

I opened the pdf version of Publication 559 and searched (Ctrl F) on the word certificate.  The paragraph headed "Death Certificate" on page 4, middle column, categorically instructs readers not to attach a copy of the death certificate.  The example in the instructions on page 2 of Form 1310 also directs personal reps and executors to retain a copy of the death certificate in their files.

[InsertCoolName]

Thank you 19thhole!!

[Deleted]

As long as the death was reported to the Social Security Adminstration (SSA), the fact and date of death are recorded on the IRS masterfile.  Infrequently, but occasionally, IRS will request a copy of the death certifcate in a post-filing inquiry.  When IRS makes a such a request, they always accept a plain, uncertified photocopy of the death certificate.

[grits]

Jan 25, 2013 6:56:25 GMT -5 mwcpa said:

Grits.... often when someone passes away assets are not properly transfered into the name of the estate and as a result the IRS gets 1099 and other tax reporting in the name of the person who passed away.  When the IRS adds up the reported income it is close to the level that would require a tax filing.  That is the reason it is advisable to file a tax return for the year of passing, clearly note the date the person passed (job for the administrator / executor/executrix).

You also, are not required to pay the debts of the person who passed, unless there was a transfer liability issue.  But, there is no legal responsibility to pay the debts of a person who passed away by any third party (it is the assets of the person who passed that pays debts).  By example.  If X passed away and owed a hospital 100,000.  X had no assets.  I was a friend/family member of X.  The hospital called me, threatened me, etc.  I am not obligated to pay a dime, heck, a penny.  To have remitted that would be foolish, unless there was a transfer of assets to you that the debtor could look to.

There were no assets for which a 1099 would have been sent.  We did indeed file a final return for the year she died.  All the proper paper work was sent, and the accountant took care of it.  The IRS still did not pay attention.  I paid her debts out of the money from her estate.  I do feel that if money is there in an estate, all debts should be paid. 

[TheOtherMe]

If there was money in the estate, her debts are to be paid with that money.  It's if there was nothing in the estate, the surviving family does not have to pay the debts, although debt collectors will try to scare you in to paying.  Paying form the estate is not the same as you paying her bills.

I've had two friends who have lost loved ones and been harassed by debt collectors.  Neither of the deceased parties had a dime.  One was in a mental health facility.  How he got a credit card, his family could not figure out.

[mwcpa]

"I then called the hospital to see what I had to pay that was still owed by the estate."

"I paid her debts out of the money from her estate. I do feel that if money is there in an estate, all debts should be paid. "

Grits, I misunderstood the first statement you made, I took it to be that you personally paid the debt of the estate, not that you in your capacity as the estate administrator using estate assets to settle debts of the estate (which is the correct thing to do).

[grits]

mwcpa  I knew you had but no harm done.  You are just trying to help people.  
Bill collectors could not find me if they had wanted too.  We did not share the same last name, and none of my personal information was on any of her accounts.  At that time, all correspondence went to another relatives house.