JC was born years before what is commonly thought

[mmhmm]

Actually, Roselia, the best way to refer to that point at which the universe came into being is epoch zero.  That terminology clarifies the issue.

[roxanne]

There is no personal insult involved, Tosh.

There was a personal insult involved, your faculties may be impaired.

We're all ignorant in some areas, while we may be quite the opposite in other areas.

I am ignorant in no areas, and you are ignorant about the basic concept of time.

 Ignorance is a burden that can be relieved, if the person in possession of said ignorance is willing to seek and retain information.


The only information came from me, and you are incapable of retaining it, maybe you enjoy the burden.

 I stand on what I've said.  You may remain buried under what you've said.  I really don't care enough to bother further.

It was checkmate some time ago,, and I am off to celebrate and gloat.


Thank you for your contribution, it was errrr...interesting.

[roxanne]

Actually, Roselia, the best way to refer to that point at which the universe came into being is epoch zero.  That terminology clarifies the issue.

LMAO.....THE ISSUE WAS CLARIFIED BY ME FROM THE GET GO, AND YOUR FARCICAL EPOCH ZERO DOES NOT ALTER THIS FACT.

[roxanne]

Star: The initial time of creation is the year 0 logically. 

I agreed with Star's logic and proceeded to demonstrate her conclusion with maths and reasoning, the response was:

"My child is zero this Friday."

No, it's not.  It's called wrong.

I'm done.  Teaching a rock to knit has never been my favorite way to waste time.

I just have an aversion to insistent ignorance.

  No matter how you try to twist it, you're dead-arsed wrong.

You may remain buried under what you've said

As an expert on debating your case seems purdy thin of any content, lots of huffing and puffing but no logic or science, you must be out of practice.

[mmhmm]

*chuckle* Hang in there, roxie, baby.  I'm just checking on ya.

[Green Eyed Lady]

*runs to mikey some popcorn*

[roxanne]

*chuckle* Hang in there, roxie, baby.  I'm just checking on ya.

Sure you are, you are doing great, honest.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Posted by roxanne

You are stating time had no beginning which is obviously a false claim, the Big Bang began time and Jesus was born from the Big Bang, this is an undisputed fact.

You are obviously not a scholar like I is.

    What??  You're putting words in my mouth.  I have never once stated that time has no beginning.  What I am saying is that our calendar has no year zero in it.  Please provide some kind of proof that the calendar that we have started on year 0.  From reading the rest of your comments on this thread it's obvious that you think you're awesome.  The fact is the entire concept of what I am talking about has flown right over your head mam', you literally couldn't be more off base here.  Here some reading on the subject roxi, or whatever your name is...  Come back to class when you finished and the lesson can continue.... 

French Republican Calendar

Immediately following 14 July 1789, papers and pamphlets started calling 1789 year I of Liberty and the following years II and III. It was in 1792, with the practical problem of dating financial transactions, that the legislative assembly was confronted with the problem of the calendar. Originally, the choice of epoch was either 1 January 1789 or 14 July 1789. After some hesitation the assembly decided on 2 January 1792 that all official documents would use the "era of Liberty" and that the year IV of Liberty started on 1 January 1792. This usage was modified on 22 September 1792 when the Republic was proclaimed and the Convention decided that all public documents would be dated Year I of the French Republic. The decree of 2 January 1793 stipulated that the year II of the Republic began on 1 January 1793; this was revoked with the introduction of the new calendar, which set 22 September 1793 as the beginning of year II. The establishment of the Republic was used as the epochal date for the calendar; therefore, the calendar commemorates the Republic, not the Revolution. In France, it is known as the calendrier républicain as well as the calendrier révolutionnaire.

[Jaguar]

Aham, Roxanne is Tosh in drag. He/she/it hasn't been around in a few days I guess cause everyone in their right mind was ignoring Toshette. Hi Toshie baby.

[mmhmm]

Apr 6, 2013 20:34:11 GMT -5 Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger said:

Posted by roxanne

You are stating time had no beginning which is obviously a false claim, the Big Bang began time and Jesus was born from the Big Bang, this is an undisputed fact.

You are obviously not a scholar like I is.

    What??  You're putting words in my mouth.  I have never once stated that time has no beginning.  What I am saying is that our calendar has no year zero in it.  Please provide some kind of proof that the calendar that we have started on year 0.  From reading the rest of your comments on this thread it's obvious that you think you're awesome.  The fact is the entire concept of what I am talking about has flown right over your head mam', you literally couldn't be more off base here.  Here some reading on the subject roxi, or whatever your name is...  Come back to class when you finished and the lesson can continue.... 

French Republican Calendar

Immediately following 14 July 1789, papers and pamphlets started calling 1789 year I of Liberty and the following years II and III. It was in 1792, with the practical problem of dating financial transactions, that the legislative assembly was confronted with the problem of the calendar. Originally, the choice of epoch was either 1 January 1789 or 14 July 1789. After some hesitation the assembly decided on 2 January 1792 that all official documents would use the "era of Liberty" and that the year IV of Liberty started on 1 January 1792. This usage was modified on 22 September 1792 when the Republic was proclaimed and the Convention decided that all public documents would be dated Year I of the French Republic. The decree of 2 January 1793 stipulated that the year II of the Republic began on 1 January 1793; this was revoked with the introduction of the new calendar, which set 22 September 1793 as the beginning of year II. The establishment of the Republic was used as the epochal date for the calendar; therefore, the calendar commemorates the Republic, not the Revolution. In France, it is known as the calendrier républicain as well as the calendrier révolutionnaire.

He's trying to get his mind wrapped around the concept of epoch zero, aham, but he's just a little short of mind. 

[Jaguar]

Apr 6, 2013 20:53:00 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

He's trying to get his mind wrapped around the concept of epoch zero, aham, but he's just a little short of mind. 

Well yeah that and a few other things as well.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

LOL@ mmhmm.  Now that is a valid point.. 

Here I will help he/she out a bit to keep this on topic... 

0 (year)

Year zero does not exist in the Anno Domini system usually used to number years in the Gregorian calendar and in its predecessor, the Julian calendar. In this system, the year 1 BC is followed by AD 1. However, there is a year zero in astronomical year numbering (where it coincides with the Julian year 1 BC) and in ISO 8601:2004 (where it coincides with the Gregorian year 1 BC) as well as in all Buddhist and Hindu calendars.

Historians have never included a year zero. This means that between, for example, January 1, 500 BC and January 1, AD 500, there are 999 years: 500 years BC, and 499 years AD preceding 500. In common usage anno Domini 1 is preceded by the year 1 BC, without an intervening year zero.[7] 

Julian calendar

The Julian calendar was a reform of the Roman calendar introduced by Julius Caesar in 46 BC (708 AUC). It took effect in 45 BC (709 AUC). It was the predominant calendar in most of Europe, and in European settlements in the Americas and elsewhere, until it was superseded by the Gregorian calendar.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

And ever since he changed genders he's also changed from being a die-hard atheist to a self-proclaimed expert on the history of Christ.

[mmhmm]

That's not a change, really, SL.  He's always been a self-proclaimed expert on just about everything.  If he's heard of it, he knows aaaalllll about it. 

[Jaguar]

Apr 6, 2013 21:05:49 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

And ever since he changed genders he's also changed from being a die-hard atheist to a self-proclaimed expert on the history of Christ.

Gender realignment does strange things I heard, jus sayin

[roxanne]

I am an expert in logic and reason, they apply universally to all topics, those who cannot refute my logic must resort to personal abuse and claim victory, this is illogical and unreasonable.

And now to this strange chap called Aham:

    What??  You're putting words in my mouth.

I am not.

 I have never once stated that time has no beginning.

Never suggested you did.

 What I am saying is that our calendar has no year zero in it.  Please provide some kind of proof that the calendar that we have started on year 0.

You are putting words in my mouth, I have never once stated a calender year zero existed, there is nothing to prove.

 From reading the rest of your comments on this thread it's obvious that you think you're awesome.

I am awesome and unlike you I can also comprehend English.

  The fact is the entire concept of what I am talking about has flown right over your head mam', you literally couldn't be more off base here.

You are the one who is inventing a position I do not hold, I am on planet earth, join me when you can.

  Here some reading on the subject roxi, or whatever your name is...  Come back to class when you finished and the lesson can continue.... 

I deliver my lessons in my own words, I have no need to copy and paste the words of others, is English your 2nd language ?

[roxanne]

Independent scholars and historians accept there is a case for the probable existence of a Jew called Yeshua ben Joseph who was executed by the Romans, that is it, the rest cannot be verified by standard historical methodology.

Historians establish what most probably occurred, a miracle is by definition the least probable occurrence, therefore a historian cannot propose the least probable as the most probable.

[roxanne]

The date of his birth is only of interest to those who are determined to link Jesus with the Jewish scriptures, total waste of time, the authority on Jewish traditions have never excepted this link, and its their scripture.

Christians have no right to bastardize the traditions and scriptures of another religion to justify their obvious pagan beliefs, Jesus was a Jew and Jews are monotheists, end of story.

Anyone who believes anything attributed to John is bordering on backward, the character and events he describe bare no comparison to earlier accounts.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Roxy people are picking at you because you are talking down to them.  Yes you are putting words in my mouth this is exactly what you said to me...

You are stating time had no beginning which is obviously a false claim, the Big Bang began time and Jesus was born from the Big Bang, this is an undisputed fact.

You are obviously not a scholar like I is.

Never once said that, as you pointed out it's a false claim.  You argued for a couple pages about year 0 in relation to this conversation so I'm not sure how you think you have a point there, all that was being talked about was the calendar .. 

Independent scholars and historians accept there is a case for the probable existence of a Jew called Yeshua ben Joseph who was executed by the Romans, that is it, the rest cannot be verified by standard historical methodology.

Exactly, and if you would have bothered to read what is in all the threads in the fist post, you would understand that the central tendency of my historical theory is the reason no one can pin it down is because JC, THE JEW, was actually born years before what is commonly thought.  It, in fact, has nothing to do with the New Testament at all. My theory is, in fact, rooted in archaeology and current events that keep happening that tie back into the cycle the JC started back in ROME!  For instance, Ancient site unearthed in Iraqi home of Abraham.

The date of his birth is only of interest to those who are determined to link Jesus with the Jewish scriptures, total waste of time, the authority on Jewish traditions have never excepted this link, and its their scripture.

 Waste of time according to who, you?  I must have hit enough of a nerve with what I have brought up to make it so that someone as intelligent as yourself would want to try and refute what I am saying.  Especially because I am so wrong and so below you and your great knowledge....  It's almost like you're taking the fact that I am right personally, and are now trying to discredit me by attacking beliefs that you THINK I have.  It's almost like my FACTS are proving your BELIEFS wrong... Hmmm,,  Again, try reading and come back to class. 

[roxanne]

Aham,

You seem a pleasant eccentric sort of chap, give me your theory about Jesus and I will tell you if it is guff or not, I fail to see what difference a few years make, do you believe in God and a divine Jesus ?

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

  Crazy like a fox... I will have to remember that description for future aptitude tests...

 I will put some things together over the next few days and get back to you my friend.  Thank you. 

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you roxy..... First, it's not just the fact that it's a few years, it's a few years when arguably the most influential man in history was alive.  I had typed up a few things in the past week or so but it dawned on me that the best way to approach this is to ask questions like a good investigator, and try to use current events as much as I can instead of putting something out there that risks taking the conversation off on a tangent.  

You are aware that Rome used Religion as a political tool right?  I mean they stole the Greeks religion, right?  They were also very commerce orientated right?

The current events to build on as well, a bit of irony in this one considering the long tangent about time and calendars earlier on.  Saudi advisers propose Friday-Saturday weekend.. 

Saudi Arabia is taking the first steps to switch its weekend to begin on Fridays to align its banking and business days with most other nations in the region.

Saudi media reports say the kingdom's advisory body agreed Monday on changing from the current system, in which the two-day weekend begins Thursday. The proposal still needs to pass the Council of Ministers and the Saudi royal court before it could take effect.

A similar recommendation in 2007 failed, but the Saudi business community has been lobbying for the switch for years to match the schedule in main regional commercial hubs, such as Dubai.

Oman plans to switch to Friday-Saturday weekends beginning May 1. Most other countries in the Gulf start their weekends Friday, the Muslim Sabbath.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Well roxy I, I should probably pull this thread down, write a book, and charge people, however, this is the "sharia" we are talking about here so I will put it out there for free, anonymously.   

Christ was persecuted, but what about Christians?(link)(Bold are my words)

According to a belief passed down through the centuries, the church grew because of Roman persecution. The blood of Christian martyrs such as Perpetua became “the seed of the church,” said third-century church leader Tertullian. It’s the Hollywood version of Christianity reflected in epic biblical films such as “Ben-Hur” and “The Robe.” Vicious Romans relentlessly targeted early Christians, so the story goes, but the faith of people like Perpetua proved so inspiring that Christianity became the official religion of Rome, and eventually the largest religion in the world.

But that script is getting a rewrite. The first Christians were never systematically persecuted by the Romans, and most martyrdom stories – with the exception of a handful such as Perpetua's – were exaggerated and invented, several scholars and historians say. It wasn’t just how the early Christians died that inspired so many people in the ancient world; it was how they lived.................

...............“If Jesus was just a soft moral teacher who taught us to love one another and petted little babies, the Romans wouldn’t have crucified him,” Litfin says. “Jesus is a polarizing figure, then and today. The early Christians weren’t foisting a narrative out of the blue about being martyrs. ”............................................

............If the first Christians pictured themselves as waging war against the world, the martyrs were their version of the Navy SEALs. They were the elite Christians who inspired and united others of their faith.

There was a purpose behind spreading stories of persecution: Nothing brings a new group closer together than a common enemy, Moss says.................(Just like radical Islam today.... To Muslims JC is Islamic).......................

...................Other scholars say it wasn't simply persecution that helped the church grow. The martyrs may have gotten all the press, but it was ordinary Christians who got it done by the way they treated friends and strangers.

Life in ancient Rome was brutal and nasty, says Rodney Stark, author of "The Triumph of Christianity." Stark’s well-regarded book gives one of the most detailed descriptions of the early church and ancient Rome.


Forget those antiseptic portraits of Roman cities you see in biblical moves such as “The Robe.” Roman cities were overcrowded, raw sewage ran in the streets, people locked their doors at night for fear of being robbed and plagues were rampant. Soap had not yet been invented, Stark says.

“The stink of the cities in the summertime must have been astounding,” Stark says. “You would have smelled a city miles before you got to it.”

Christians stood out because they created a “miniature welfare state" to help the less fortunate, Stark says. They took in infant girls routinely left for dead by their parents. They risked their lives to tend the sick when plagues hit and others fled in terror. They gave positions of leadership to women when many women had no rights, and girls as young as 12 were often married off to middle-aged men, he says.

Ordinary Romans might have thought Christians were odd but liked having them for neighbors, Stark says.

“If people had really been against them, I don’t think they would have grown like they did,” Stark says.

Christianity became so popular that when Rome did unleash one of its sporadic waves of persecutions, the empire couldn’t stop the church’s momentum, Stark says.

 A young JC goes to the temple, Herods Temple(part of which still exists today in Jerusalem), and astounds all of the scholars there.  World travels through Rome(lets not forget that Jerusalem was "part" of Rome at that time) to Octavius Augustus that a young man has an incredible knowledge that will help you bring the PEACE to your Empire that you so desperately desire.  This young Jewish lad travels to Rome and essentially becomes Augustus's "court Jew".  This is where the bottom italicized part of the quoted article comes in, while JC is in Rome "helping" Augustus his true message starts to shine through and "Peace be with the Empire". Back home in Judah people cheer the possibility of the messiah and he starts to gather a following from all the different "tribes" in Judah.  If you look at his apostles you will see people from Zealots to philosophers.

Then Augustus dies, all of a sudden it's decided that JC isn't needed anymore.  Out he goes, and guess what? Cesar worship starts.  Augustus is to be worshiped as a God, and that goes for the WHOLE empire.  JC returns to Jerusalem and the Jewish people are forced to worship Cesar as God and pay taxes to worship at their temple.  Riots start in Jerusalem and Jesus's following grows, he does what is necessary at the time to set up the events that he knows have to transpire to bring about the "Sharia" for all and then gives himself up to die in a way that will be remembered forever.  He pushes it so far and for so long that it sets off all the emotional responses that it was supposed to and it electrified the entire Roman empire forever.  

Since Rome more or less destroyed the Library in Alexander and basically took control of all the information in the "whole world", when Christianity finally became the "official" Religion they were able to write the history books around the New Testament in a way that they thought they could hide Christs early involvement in the Augusts years, but you can't hide the truth.  It's just like the man said, the truth shall set you free!

Have a good night/day fun and all! 

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

More current events that tie the past into the present... Fact is that Christianity was originally a form of Liberal Judaism, kinda like these ones.... Israeli police guard liberal Jewish women praying at Western Wall...  Speaking of prayer, how about Unexpected Support for Jewish Prayer on Temple Mount?  Unexpected unless you started this thread of course..    Further on that topic, Did the EU Just Back Jewish Prayer on the Temple Mount? 

While all that is going on,(A new highway connecting Jewish neighborhoods in northern Jerusalem is the latest addition to a network of roads making a future division of the city increasingly unlikely.) Paving the way to an indivisible Jerusalem.  No wonder 4 of 5 want World Religions: taught in B.C. public schools then, eh?

Good Sabbath all! 

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

 I came across an interesting tidbit of information the other day, it fits right into the this thread and further ties things together.

The Templers: German settlers who left their mark on Palestine(link) 

Hoffmann had split from the Lutheran Evangelical Church in 1861, taking his cue from New Testament concepts of Christians as "temples" embodying God's spirit, and as a community acting together to build God's "temple" among mankind.

But building a community in what was then a neglected land was an immensely difficult endeavour. Much of the ground was swamp, malaria was rife and infant mortality was high.

"The Templers saw 'Zion' [Biblical synonym for Jerusalem and the Holy Land] as their second homeland," says David Kroyanker, author of The German Colony and Emek Refaim Street. "But it was like being on the moon - they came from a very developed country to nowhere."

In fact, the Templers arrived in Palestine more than a decade before the first large-scale immigration of Jewish Zionists, who fled there to escape destitution and pogroms in Russia - and in many ways they served as a model for the Jewish pioneers.  

Initially the Templers concentrated on farming - draining the swamps, planting fields, vineyards and orchards, and employing modern working techniques unfamiliar to Palestine (they were the first to market "Jaffa Oranges" - produce from their Sarona settlement near Jaffa).

They operated steam-powered oil presses and flour mills, opened the country's first hotels and European-style pharmacies, and manufactured essential commodities such as soap and cement - and beer.

In his book The Settlements of the Wuerttemberg Templers in Palestine 1868-18, Prof Alex Carmel of Haifa University observes how the Templers "soon gained a reputation for their skills and their diligence. They built exemplary colonies and pretty houses surrounded by flower gardens - a piece of their homeland in the heart of Palestine".

Symbols of their fervent religious beliefs are still evident in the Jerusalem neighbourhood where the Templers began to settle in 1873. They named the district Emek Refaim (Valley of Refaim) after a place in the Bible, and verses from the Scriptures, inscribed in Gothic lettering, survive on the lintels of their former homes.

In other words, without the Christian British Empire, Christian Money, and a Protestant Messiah Christian sect, there is no Israel today..

Which is interesting because.......

Rebuilding Temple in Jerusalem: holy work or holy mess?(link) 

A frequent presence on the mount who knows the guards by name, Richman is the international director of the Temple Institute, an organization based in the Old City whose singular goal is to rebuild the Holy Temple in Jerusalem.

Just before Tisha B’Av, which commemorates the destruction of the First and Second Temples and was marked this year on July 15, the institute released a video showing Jewish children donning tool belts and leading their fathers out of synagogue to begin the Temple’s construction.

“Our goal is to fulfill the commandment of ‘They shall make a Temple for me and I will dwell among them,’ ” Richman says, quoting Exodus.

Following the Second Temple’s destruction in 70 C.E., most rabbis adopted the position that Jewish law prohibits reconstructing the Holy Temple prior to the age of messianic redemption.

The Temple Institute takes a different position. “There are no Jewish legal barriers” to rebuilding the Temple, Richman says, only political ones.

The twist... Messianic Judaism(link)

When true historical facts keep fitting in with a true historical timeline, it's no longer a matter of belief, but simply a denial of the truth on an individual level.  Since we are not in control...... 

[Deleted]

 Regarding the "Year 0": We often speak of a "Timeline", because time is linear. A certain point on that line is preceded by the year 1BCE. The twelve months following that point is the year 1. There is no "year 0".

As for the Historical Jesus... he was a renegade. He had no home (yes, he was a "homeless person"), he was an itinerant preacher who was dependent upon the charity of others for his food and shelter (he was "a Welfare beneficiary"!). As an itinerant, he had no wardrobe, no tools of a trade, no possessions at all. (Like a "hippy/flower child")
 He defied the established Authorities of his culture... disrupting the venal moneylenders where they had ensconced themselves at the temple. The Temple High Priest and other authorities (Sanhedrin) saw him as a troublemaker bent upon disrupting the established Social Order. They were appalled that he associated with the impoverished and the "unclean"... the outcasts and dregs of their society.
 It is ironic to me that so many contemporary "Christians" are utterly obsessed with money and finances (as one can see from the Topics and posts made at this message board).
 All the hair-splitting and contention regarding minutiae (like his birthday, or the supposed "virginity" of his mother) is a bunch of detours and sidetracks distracting from the Big Picture and the Primary message: "Be Humane. Encourage Love and affection between people, do not indulge in Hatred, selfishness and spite".
 Jesus was a Humanist.

 An aspect of Jesus that intrigues me... there is no mention that I know of in the bible of Jesus ever eating meat. Loaves and fishes are mentioned, but not meat. It is possible that he was a vegetarian... accounts of his "last supper" (a "Passover" feast, or "pesach seder") do not mention any customary lamb consumed at the table, only bread and wine. If Jesus was a vegetarian, it would be an important, if unpopular, point. It would have to have been glossed over or excised from biblical accounts, ostensibly to make the new cult offshoot of Judeaism (Christianity) more palatable.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Aside from your vegetarian point(which isn't on topic in this thread) your points are the conventional wisdom, except the story has more holes than Swiss cheese.  For starters, why would people in Rome give two shits about a young Jewish lad causing trouble in Jerusalem, based on Jewish politics?  

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

A precedent has been set in rewriting timelines.... JC was born years before what is commonly thought.

New timeline for origin of ancient Egypt

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Shaping the past from the present, gives you the future; the churches of the Messianic age. Not 3 but 1, 1 story, that tells the complete history of our global economy that we live in today.

In the future we all say, THANKS JC!

THREE RELIGIONS UNDER A SINGLE ROOF

Jesus said, "Perhaps people think that I have come to cast peace upon the world. They do not know that I have come to cast conflicts upon the earth: fire, sword, war.

For there will be five in a house: there'll be three against two and two against three, father against son and son against father, and they will stand alone."

[dothedd]

Oct 31, 2013 1:19:45 GMT -5 Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger said:

Shaping the past from the present, gives you the future; the churches of the Messianic age. Not 3 but 1, 1 story, that tells the complete history of our global economy that we live in today.

In the future we all say, THANKS JC!

THREE RELIGIONS UNDER A SINGLE ROOF

Jesus said, "Perhaps people think that I have come to cast peace upon the world. They do not know that I have come to cast conflicts upon the earth: fire, sword, war.

For there will be five in a house: there'll be three against two and two against three, father against son and son against father, and they will stand alone."

kuriakon00.com/nde_blog/not-peace-but-a-sword/