Probably Cause for Search of Car

[alabamagal]

So Wed night, my 21 year old DD is driving home from visiiting college friends. 10 pm on 4 lane road in middle of nowhere. She gets pulled over by state police who say that her car registration shows up as expired even though her car sticker says it is current - WTF!!!(she is not in our state). She shows the offer her valid registration. He then starts to grill her about where she is going - she says visiting a friend at the large university, no she doesn't go there, but just graduated from another college. Officer then asks if she has any drugs or large sums of money (answer is NO!) and can he search her car and overnight bag. She agrees (No drugs and certainly no large sums of money). Delayed her from getting home about 45 minutes. Maybe he was also looking for DWI, which she was not.

So she was stopped for an invalid reason and they still ask to search her car??? This does not seem right to me. I don't know what to tell my kids to do.

Just ranting mostly.

[zibazinski]

That sounds very bad. I hope she got his badge number and name.

[busymom]

Georgiagal, it could just be the time of the night. Back in my retail days, I wouldn't leave work until 2 a.m. during Christmas rush. I got pulled over, & the "where are you going at this time of night" speech. I figured the officer was just trying to see if he could smell any alcohol on my breath. He let me go on my way after chatting for a couple minutes...

[swamp]

He didn't have probable cause to search, that's why he asked. She gave consent to search

He's looking for drug runners. Younger person from out of state fits the bill. He totally made up a reason to pull her over.

[Miss Tequila]

Nov 23, 2012 17:34:31 GMT -5 alabamagal said:

So Wed night, my 21 year old DD is driving home from visiiting college friends. 10 pm on 4 lane road in middle of nowhere. She gets pulled over by state police who say that her car registration shows up as expired even though her car sticker says it is current - WTF!!!(she is not in our state). She shows the offer her valid registration. He then starts to grill her about where she is going - she says visiting a friend at the large university, no she doesn't go there, but just graduated from another college. Officer then asks if she has any drugs or large sums of money (answer is NO!) and can he search her car and overnight bag. She agrees (No drugs and certainly no large sums of money). Delayed her from getting home about 45 minutes. Maybe he was also looking for DWI, which she was not.

So she was stopped for an invalid reason and they still ask to search her car??? This does not seem right to me. I don't know what to tell my kids to do.

Just ranting mostly.

I'm of the mindset that if I have nothing to hide, the officer is more than welcome to search my car. I realize that they need probable cause if I decline but I don't see the big deal...if I'm not hiding a dead body or drugs in my trunk, why would I care if he/she wants to waste time looking??

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Your daughter had the right to refuse to allow him to search her car....and she should have. If anyone accidentally dropped something in her car and it was found, she would have been in trouble. The cop was on a fishing trip.

They can detain you, if they have probable cause. But your daughter did not have probable cause.

I'd be filing a complaint.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Nov 23, 2012 21:01:32 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Nov 23, 2012 17:34:31 GMT -5 alabamagal said:

So Wed night, my 21 year old DD is driving home from visiiting college friends. 10 pm on 4 lane road in middle of nowhere. She gets pulled over by state police who say that her car registration shows up as expired even though her car sticker says it is current - WTF!!!(she is not in our state). She shows the offer her valid registration. He then starts to grill her about where she is going - she says visiting a friend at the large university, no she doesn't go there, but just graduated from another college. Officer then asks if she has any drugs or large sums of money (answer is NO!) and can he search her car and overnight bag. She agrees (No drugs and certainly no large sums of money). Delayed her from getting home about 45 minutes. Maybe he was also looking for DWI, which she was not.

So she was stopped for an invalid reason and they still ask to search her car??? This does not seem right to me. I don't know what to tell my kids to do.

Just ranting mostly.

I'm of the mindset that if I have nothing to hide, the officer is more than welcome to search my car. I realize that they need probable cause if I decline but I don't see the big deal...if I'm not hiding a dead body or drugs in my trunk, why would I care if he/she wants to waste time looking??

This is a BAD idea. Even if you have nothing to hide, if they find something, even if it not yours, that is probable cause to pull you in. How do you know what friends left in your car? He'll, I can't guarantee that there is not a roach in my car, despite the fact that I do not smoke. I have carried people in my car who do.

I carry my narcotics in my coat pocket and I am terrified that if it accidentally falls out in Dawg's car, he could be pulled in. Even though they are in a bottle with a prescription, if I am not there, his ass could be in a sling for something dropping out of my pocket.

[lurkyloo]

I'd file a complaint, but frankly I think she handled it okay. Obnoxiously, it's always a judgement call as to how much of a pain in the butt to be to a police officer--a lot of them will write you a ticket as soon as look at you and it doesn't necessarily have to be for a real infraction.

ETA: Of course, if there's ANY possibility that they could find something then go ahead and refuse! A spurious speeding ticket is a lot less damaging than a misdemeanor for possession

[Miss Tequila]

Nov 23, 2012 21:11:28 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Nov 23, 2012 21:01:32 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

I'm of the mindset that if I have nothing to hide, the officer is more than welcome to search my car. I realize that they need probable cause if I decline but I don't see the big deal...if I'm not hiding a dead body or drugs in my trunk, why would I care if he/she wants to waste time looking??

This is a BAD idea. Even if you have nothing to hide, if they find something, even if it not yours, that is probable cause to pull you in. How do you know what friends left in your car? He'll, I can't guarantee that there is not a roach in my car, despite the fact that I do not smoke. I have carried people in my car who do.

I carry my narcotics in my coat pocket and I am terrified that if it accidentally falls out in Dawg's car, he could be pulled in. Even though they are in a bottle with a prescription, if I am not there, his ass could be in a sling for something dropping out of my pocket.

That is not a risk of mine...no one I hang out with does pot, heroin, etc so I can't imagine drugs winding up in my car.

Now my mom is on a few controlled substances and though she is rarely in my car, I guess a bottle of her prescription could fall out of her purse. But I have researched the law in PA and in order for it to be a crime, it has to be proven that I knowingly and intentionally possessed a controlled substance without a prescription. I just don't see a risk there.

Heck, if on the off chance a cop DID find something I would explain and immediately offer to take a drug test to prove that I don't do drugs.

I am sure there are some bad cops out there but I have to believe for the most part they take their jobs seriously and are not out looking to put 41 year old CPA's in jail because their mom's prescription fell out in their car.

[Deleted]

When I was in college, I got called into the Dean's office because a matchbox of marijuana was found in the top of my closet after I left for the year. I will admit that I saw it as I was cleaning my room prior to leaving, but I honestly thought it was a box of matches. It was way back in the back on the top shelf; I couldn't reach it. Since I didn't think it was important, I didn't worry about it.

I didn't get in trouble (I am sure I sound as dumb as I sound on here . . . I didn't know they put marijuana in matchboxes), but I could have. So I would never let anyone search my car without "probable cause" or a warrant or whatever. I have nothing to hide, but those legal protections are there to protect me, the innocent citizen. Let them work.

However, I don't blame your daughter at all. At her age, I would have done the same thing. If they had asked to search my dorm room closet that day, I would have said, "Sure, have fun!." I had nothing to hide. But I would have been in a lot more trouble if there hadn't been what was basically a broken chain of evidence (I had moved out a few months before) and a really stupid person (me) trying to figure out what they found that was so "awful" in a matchbox.

[bean29]

Sent from my MB855 using proboards

[alabamagal]

Nov 24, 2012 10:17:47 GMT -5 @tbird said:

Nov 23, 2012 18:18:56 GMT -5 swamp said:

He didn't have probable cause to search, that's why he asked. She gave consent to search

He's looking for drug runners. Younger person from out of state fits the bill. He totally made up a reason to pull her over.

swamp - practically speaking - what are the consequences of refusing?

Could they tail you all the way to the state line? In my experience, police are often jerks.

As I said, I just don't know what to tell my kids to do. If you refuse the search, then I think the police are highly likely to be a jerk, and certainly delay you.

I know my DD doesn't do drugs, but never even thought about friends leaving things behind. I don't think that would happen, but she was visiting other college buddies.

I have always thought that cooperating was the best thing (assuming you have nothing illegal on you), but this guy seems to have gone over the line. My DD has a ziploc bag in her glove compartment that had a car part in it, and he examined that super closely. Jeez....

Well on the bright side, I had asked her to drive home earlier because I didn't like her driving at night on a holiday weekend. Maybe she learned a lesson (probably not)

[finnime]

Have your kids and their friends and SOs watch both parts of this:




The point, by both this attorney and the Virginia Beach chief of police, is that you don't have to talk or volunteer anything - that it can hurt you even when you have absolutely nothing to hide.

[swamp]

Nov 24, 2012 10:17:47 GMT -5 @tbird said:

Nov 23, 2012 18:18:56 GMT -5 swamp said:

He didn't have probable cause to search, that's why he asked. She gave consent to search

He's looking for drug runners. Younger person from out of state fits the bill. He totally made up a reason to pull her over.

swamp - practically speaking - what are the consequences of refusing?

Could they tail you all the way to the state line? In my experience, police are often jerks.

Depends on how much of an ass the cop wants to be.
Legally, they can't do anything if you refuse a search because refusal is not probable cause. They often call the K-9 in, and they take their sweet time getting there.

[swamp]

Nov 24, 2012 11:18:36 GMT -5 @tbird said:

Nov 24, 2012 10:29:46 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

I could be wrong, but I think what they will do is to tell you that they will hold you long enough to bring in a dog in to check out your car.

they can't detain you without cause either, I think. you can tell them to get a warrant - and I think you can legally leave, but what might they pull?

If a cop pulls you over, can you call a lawyer? Should people have a lawyer picked out in case they need one?

We sure don't.....

They don't need a warrant to search a car because of the movable nature of a car. If they can come up with probable cause to search, that's enough.

If you call a lawyer immediately upon being pulled over, that's overkill. Be polite, answer their questions, but don't let them search.

[swamp]

Nov 24, 2012 12:27:22 GMT -5 @tbird said:

no doubt off eating the last slice of pumpkin pie in the laundry room....so the kids don't see and she doesn't have to share.....

It's hockey and figure skating day. And then the kids wanted luch at McDonald's

[swamp]

Yes.

[zibazinski]

That's just bullshit and harassment. He was bored and wanted to mess with a young woman.

[p8nt]

Nov 23, 2012 18:18:56 GMT -5 swamp said:

He didn't have probable cause to search, that's why he asked. She gave consent to search

He's looking for drug runners. Younger person from out of state fits the bill. He totally made up a reason to pull her over.

I agree with most of this.
She consented, he doesn't need PC to search the car with consent. However, I disagree that he made up the PC for the traffic stop. With thousands of vehicle code violations written in the books, it isn't hard for one to come up with PC for the stop. I'm sure he likely found a legal reason for the stop. Probably not a stop he would have made if he wasn't looking for something else though.

[swamp]

It's called a "pretext stop". Aka you were going 60 and the speed limit is 55, so I'm putting the official reason for the stop as speeding. However, we all know that if she didn't fit the profile for a drug runner, we all k ow I wouldn't look twice at her.

[kgb18]

They don't need a warrant to search a car because of the movable nature of a car. If they can come up with probable cause to search, that's enough.

This must vary from state to state. In PA if a consent search is refused they have to get a warrant. And they would need something more than an expired sticker to get it.

In my experience, police are often jerks.

And here we go again. <sigh>

[swamp]

In my experience, about 10% of police are jerks. Probably about 9% of the general population are jerks.

[swamp]

Nov 24, 2012 17:36:36 GMT -5 kgb18 said:

They don't need a warrant to search a car because of the movable nature of a car. If they can come up with probable cause to search, that's enough.

This must vary from state to state. In PA if a consent search is refused they have to get a warrant. And they would need something more than an expired sticker to get it.

In my experience, police are often jerks.

And here we go again. <sigh>

NY, they don't need the warrant but they better have a really good reason to search.
Most people consent to the search, and I have no idea why anyone would consent to a search, especially if you're hauling drugs. I also don't get why anyone hauling drugs would speed, or swerve, or drive with a headlight out.

Whatever. It's job security for me.

[lurkyloo]

I'm fairly sure that CA is trying to close their budget gap with ticky-tack traffic tickets.

[kgb18]

and what - exactly? What are you sighing about?

I'm just sighing because inevitably every thread involving police questions ends up with someone saying all or most cops are jerks. While some are (I got stopped by a jerk a couple of weeks ago), most aren't. There's no way to know why a cop is doing what he/she is doing. It could be just to be a jerk, or there could be a totally valid reason that you don't know about.

In the interest of full disclosure, my husband is a police officer, so admittedly I'm a little sensitive when it comes to that topic.

[zibazinski]

I know what you mean. Some of us are or were teachers and it gets old defending them as well. Yes, there's always some reason you can be stopped. Technically, you're breaking some kind of law but no way should a cop been stopping some girl, alone, late at night. Mine was told to immediately call 911 and report that she was stopped and was the person legit. Also that she wanted another cop present. Then to call me. We were always told you could go to a public place but every cop I've talked to has said that is not an option and you can get in big trouble for it. Just thinking about her being stopped gives me the creeps. No reason for it at all.

[lurkyloo]

I don't doubt that there are a lot of good cops, but the profession does seem to draw more than its share of bullies looking for a power trip And of course, people are more vocal when complaining. The police in this area tend towards the ridiculous. I've never been pulled over in any other state; I've been pulled over four times here and trailed while they run my plates more often than I can count. As a pathetically law-abiding citizen who has learned not to drive the older car after dark, it gets old. It's also a little hard to swallow when you see a roughly 4x increase in cars pulled over during the holiday season--are they competing to see who gets the biggest bonus or what?

[Deleted]

Nov 23, 2012 21:01:32 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Nov 23, 2012 17:34:31 GMT -5 alabamagal said:

So Wed night, my 21 year old DD is driving home from visiiting college friends. 10 pm on 4 lane road in middle of nowhere. She gets pulled over by state police who say that her car registration shows up as expired even though her car sticker says it is current - WTF!!!(she is not in our state). She shows the offer her valid registration. He then starts to grill her about where she is going - she says visiting a friend at the large university, no she doesn't go there, but just graduated from another college. Officer then asks if she has any drugs or large sums of money (answer is NO!) and can he search her car and overnight bag. She agrees (No drugs and certainly no large sums of money). Delayed her from getting home about 45 minutes. Maybe he was also looking for DWI, which she was not.

So she was stopped for an invalid reason and they still ask to search her car??? This does not seem right to me. I don't know what to tell my kids to do.

Just ranting mostly.

I'm of the mindset that if I have nothing to hide, the officer is more than welcome to search my car. I realize that they need probable cause if I decline but I don't see the big deal...if I'm not hiding a dead body or drugs in my trunk, why would I care if he/she wants to waste time looking??

<<puts on a halloween police uniform costume and goes looking for Miss Tequilla......hopefully she is willing to consent to a strip search for no apparent reason too >>

[zibazinski]

You don't think people can leave or even put stuff in your car? Don't you watch any Lifetime movies!

[8 Bit WWBG]

...:::"As I said, I just don't know what to tell my kids to do. If you refuse the search, then I think the police are highly likely to be a jerk, and certainly delay you.":::...

This is my fear as well. Although I may be "right", and able to get even in the long run, the officer standing in front of me can make things VERY difficult in the short term.

They are used to people being intimidated, confused, uncomfortable, and agreeing to anything. I'd imagine that they would react VERY poorly to someone who confidently knew the rules as well as or better than they did; and they would pull out all the stops to nurse their wounds.

...:::"and if they call in the K9 - do you have to wait? [yes]":::...

So then, they really get to search anyway -- it just depends on how much of my personal time I want to waste?

Then if I know I am not hauling anything wrong, and I am 99% sure that nothing could have been "planted" or left, why is it a bad idea to consent to the search?

I suppose the officer himself/herself could be corrupt and plant something. I just have trepidation about wasting hours to play to someone's ego. Doubly so that I doubt the officer will actually get in any trouble even if I follow the law and am polite, and he/she was totally out of line.

...:::"With thousands of vehicle code violations written in the books, it isn't hard for one to come up with PC for the stop.":::...

It is scary just how many "gotchas" the code has -- most of which have almost zilch to do with daily driving.