The older kid thread

[Deleted]

How is his speech? 

What specific issues have you scared?

[whoisjohngalt]

Aug 6, 2013 21:05:42 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

Talk to me about 4 year old behavior. We're 5 weeks in and I'm scared...

Give me an example

[raeoflyte]

Clarity of speech has improved a ton in the last 3 months, so thats a huge plus.

But we are having melt downs or arguments every single day. He wants help with everything, which I can kind of see because of the baby. But he throws a fit if Dh is going to do nap or bedtime, buckle him in the car seat, etc. Everything has to be me. He hasn't been willing to spend the day at the babysitters (is fine when she comes here), and even refused to stay at my parents house (and adores them).

Just about anything we say no to becomes a meltdown. Screaming, crying, stomping, running away. And he just cops this bratty attitude more often than not. Forget please and thank you's. I'm happy if he asks vs. Demands and yells.

For the most part he has always been a mellow kid. A momma's boy, but mellow. It seems to be carrying on a long time for a phase...or maybe my patience is shot and it just feels like forever. I don't want to hold him to expectations that are too high and set him up to fail, but I don't want to coddle him either.

He starts preschool this month and I'm really hoping that helps us compare him to other kids his age. Right now, we just have 1 friend his age, who is wild, but at least I haven't seen the tantrums from him.

[Deleted]

How old is the baby? That can be a period of adjustment. 

Is it possible to say no less? I know. But he's probably feeling a little out of control right now with baby and giving him more choices, more opportunities to experience yes might lessen the meltdowns. 

No event other than baby precipitated the change? I'm guessing...

All kids are different...

[raeoflyte]

Well, change seems to be our only constant... Baby is 8 months, so not exactly New, but always something new happening with her, and she would not be described as mellow.

I changed positions at work, and up'd my hours by 5 hours a week, but am back down now. Dh's hours went up, but is back down now too, but he's studying for boards which ds has probably picked up on.

We are big on picking our battles (meaning to let the small stuff go). But... I've been pretty stressed so I know we can feed off of each other.

I'd be thrilled if this is a phase or situational. Maybe just by posting this he will wake up and be a sweetheart for several months. I hope anyway...

[whoisjohngalt]

Well, when my oldest was doing meltdowns, I waited out.  Literally.  I let him do it.  He wouldn't want me to buckle him in, must my DH or the other way around.  He would want a sandwich THIS way and not THAT way.   Screaming and throwing himself on the floor.  I just waited.  Sat with him or outside of his room and waited.  Didn't punish.  didn't yell.  Just let him get it out.

His life was nothing but change for pretty much his whole life, and he was/is too young to figure out how to deal with his emotions, so I waited.  And talked to him and talked and talked. 

And I tried giving him options and allow him to make choices.  Within permissible things, but still, he could choose.  Simple things.  Do you want tuna or PB&J for lunch?  Your choice.  Do you want to wear sandals or snickers? Your choice.  etc etc. 

And I ALWAYS send the same message - you will NEVER get anything by throwing a tantrum, talk to me and I promise - we will figure things out.

He was never a mellow baby or a toddler.   But you know what?  He is so much better.  He really does talk to me now.  Yeah, there are still crying, but VERY rarely will he throw a temper tantrum. 

No magic tricks, just kept doing the same thing over and over and over and over....

I am no expert, but unless there is some serious violence or something, I don't think it's anything that unusal

[raeoflyte]

Oh Lena-I hope we have similar luck. I feel like we are trying those things, but I know I also really need to work on my patience level. I liked your questions from my last freak out with him, and have been asking him to tell me about his best and worst parts of his day, and to describe his perfect day. His answers are pretty funny, but I'm hoping he will start to volunteer that kind of stuff eventually.

[Wisconsin Beth]

Patience is hard. 

[whoisjohngalt]

Aug 7, 2013 0:00:46 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

Oh Lena-I hope we have similar luck. I feel like we are trying those things, but I know I also really need to work on my patience level. I liked your questions from my last freak out with him, and have been asking him to tell me about his best and worst parts of his day, and to describe his perfect day. His answers are pretty funny, but I'm hoping he will start to volunteer that kind of stuff eventually.

Oh no no no no no - I don't want you to get the wrong idea, I was not and still am not patient.  But I kept it together while in front of him and then I would go somewhere and be reaaaallly angry - like WTF is your problem kid, who gives a shit who buckles you in the car - angry.   And I also understood how you can get to the point that you just want to shake your kid bc again WTF?  But....I didn't do it.  I just couldn't add my hysteria to his. 

It's been a long road, I hope yours as not as long and much easier. 

And again, I don't want you to get the wrong idea that I am this calm serene parent.  I yell (sometimes A LOT) and I get upset.  It's just when he is in a meltdown, I am not.  That's when I pull myself together. 

[Wisconsin Beth]

In our house, meltdowns feed everyone else's meltdowns.    So there's too much yelling and crying going on. 

[genericname]

All of this talk of meltdowns and tantrums has me terrified. DS is 2.5, and he's always been pretty mellow. We haven't had a "terrible two" I don't think. That being said, there is a boy down the street who just turned 3 a couple of weeks ago, and DH was talking to his dad last night. The dad said that as soon as his little guy turned 3, he transformed into a bratty, tantrum throwing, whining, crying, headstrong little sh!t (his words). So tell me the truth: is there a brat switch that gets flipped to 'on' at 3? Please no!

[raeoflyte]

The day my son turned 3 was the first time we had actual tantrums. For a solid month he was awful (and no changes had happened before or after), and then at 3 and 1 month, he was totally chill again. Weirdest thing ever.

I keep hoping that same switch will go off again now.

[raeoflyte]

Aug 7, 2013 8:51:42 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

In our house, meltdowns feed everyone else's meltdowns.    So there's too much yelling and crying going on. 

That is the tough part! Thankfully so far the kids rarely melt at the same time, but as soon as one is finally calmed Down. The other one starts, and Dh and I are like that too.

And with my Dh's schedule I'm alone with the kids already quite a bit so when he is home I need him to be able to help. This 'only mommy' stuff just doesn't work. Unless the goal is to make me insane, because I think that's working really well.

[Deleted]

They mis-labeled the "terrible twos". It really should be the "terrible threes" genericname. Sorry. 


ETA: I can't remember where I got it from, but I read a book called "The Wonder Weeks" when I first had DD and it explained that fussiness/meltdowns occur while kids get accustomed to "leaps" in physical, neurological or cognitive functions. 

That helps explain the "phases" that kids have. 

[Wisconsin Beth]

It dips and peaks for us. 

[whoisjohngalt]

Also, there are different kind of "meltdowns".  My oldest was always super emotional so there would be screaming and kicking and throwing himself on the floor all that other good stuff.  My DS2 will just whine and whine and whiiiiine and cry, but nothing too dramatic.  The youngest I think is a combination of two.

I stopped reading books a long time ago.  They just never did much for me. 

I do try to pay attention to what makes my kids tick and I try to talk to them as much as possible  and I think I know them pretty well and THAT'S what helps me the most. 

[whoisjohngalt]

Aug 7, 2013 9:29:09 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

Aug 7, 2013 8:51:42 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

In our house, meltdowns feed everyone else's meltdowns.    So there's too much yelling and crying going on. 

That is the tough part! Thankfully so far the kids rarely melt at the same time, but as soon as one is finally calmed Down. The other one starts, and Dh and I are like that too.

And with my Dh's schedule I'm alone with the kids already quite a bit so when he is home I need him to be able to help. This 'only mommy' stuff just doesn't work. Unless the goal is to make me insane, because I think that's working really well.

For us, if it was something that we could accommodate very easily  - we did, like he only wanted daddy to give him a bath. But there were also plenty of times when he went to bed without one.   If it was something like the car thing - well, we did it by force, bc I am not spending an hour in a parking lot dealing with that.    He's gone to bed without food bc he didn't like the way his food layed out on the plate and I wasn't going to throw it out and make him a new plate.  But his diaper was changed even if he was screaming on the top of his lungs that he didn't want daddy only mommy.  Well, tough, you get who you get. 

I tried not to make hard core rules and go with each situation.  But the common theme was - throwing tantrums won't get you anything good, we can talk and figure things out - try doing that

[raeoflyte]

I talked to dh about the suggestions and he thought they were good too.  We will keep plugging away and just really, really hope that its a short lived phase.  We are trying to get as much protein into him as possible, and also taking him to the pool a bunch.  

I really, really, wish I could look into the kids head and know what was up.  Ds agreed to go to my parents today instead of to dd doctor appointment, but called 30 minutes later that he wanted daddy to pick him up, and sat on the couch for another 30 minutes just waiting for him to come.  He also told me this morning that he was okay with me going to work today, but that I can't ever go back after today...     Repeating the word listen, since we've been making a pact each night to really listen to each other the next day.  I feel bad for him, and for my dh who is always taking 2nd fiddle, and then for me because I'm just tired.  I don't really need a break from the kids, but to not be in charge of everything would be nice for a bit.  

[whoisjohngalt]

Rae, if you ever want to, PM me, I can tell you what I/we did for various things.  Some of it worked, some didn't. 

One thing though - we never took it personally.  Well, except may be when he told me that I am the WORST.MOMMY.EVER - yeah, I was a "bit" upset about that.

I don't have all the answers or even most of the answers, just making this up as I go.....

Some women in some of my mommy-groups look for a book and/or an article every time there is an issue.  I don't do that.  I think it's a bunch of BS.  I don't tell them, though   but if you'd like, I can send you some links
   

[raeoflyte]

Thanks Lena! I'd take your links.  I have avoided any of the books since we tried to get sleep advice/info in a few different ones.  You had to accept the author's 'system' without question it seemed, and more of it pissed me off than I thought was worth trying, so instead we just winged it.  But I don't want to be uninformed either.  

We try not to take it personal, but both of the kids are such momma's babies, that I think it is getting to dh.  He always joked that he was just an acceptable substitute, but now he is more like the "only if we have to" substitute and he has that kind of relationship with his dad so while he tries not to, he's reading too much into the kids behavior.  (And if you followed that run-on sentence I'm super impressed!) 

And really just knowing that other kids act like similar is such a relief.  We leave so many places in tears lately (he cries to go, but then cries to leave too) that you just start to wonder if its something we're doing/not doing.   

[Wisconsin Beth]

Does your DH do fun stuff with the kids?  What I noticed is that DH often does the discipline stuff but not the fun stuff.  So I've been trying to make sure he does fun stuff for the kids too.  Plus I get a bit of a break if DH is pushing on the swings!  I'm not sure if it's helping or not though. 

My dad worked 3rd shift until I was about 15.  So my childhood memories are not doing a whole lot with Dad.  Mom was the one who did the Zoo, the picnics, OK'd swimming (I think she was grateful to get us out of the house actually).  I do have fun memories of Dad, don't get me wrong. 

[whoisjohngalt]

OK, I am officially done giving any kind of advice or suggestions.

My 3 yr old took my 2 yr old out of the booster seat - undid the tray, unlatched the buckle and took him out bc "well, he was done eating".

Clearly,  I don't have a clue what I am doing

[Wisconsin Beth]

snort. 

[Clever Username]

Does your DH do fun stuff with the kids?

Fathers Rock at being parents.
Sure, we didn't play with dolls, so we might be shy jumping right in.
But I say, the sooner the better.

Ladies, clear out.  Go find something to do.
Hey, honey, Jr was just asking if I could strap him to my back and zoom around, making airplane sounds, but (shrug) I'm heading to mix us cocktails and update Facebook.  Can you do me a solid?

[raeoflyte]

Aug 8, 2013 8:49:26 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

Does your DH do fun stuff with the kids?  What I noticed is that DH often does the discipline stuff but not the fun stuff.  So I've been trying to make sure he does fun stuff for the kids too.  Plus I get a bit of a break if DH is pushing on the swings!  I'm not sure if it's helping or not though. 

My dad worked 3rd shift until I was about 15.  So my childhood memories are not doing a whole lot with Dad.  Mom was the one who did the Zoo, the picnics, OK'd swimming (I think she was grateful to get us out of the house actually).  I do have fun memories of Dad, don't get me wrong. 

Dh does all the fun stuff with the kids.  He's home with them when I'm working so he does at least one outing (zoo, butterfly pavilion, children's museum, regular museum, planetarium, parks, hikes etc.) a week.  Plus a tumbling class with ds.  When I'm home on the weekends I mostly visit family with the kids and do chores.     Dh is stricter than I am though.  I figure you'll decide it was a bad idea through natural consequences, but dh tries to micro-manage.  

This morning the baby wailed unless dh was holding her within 3 feet of me.  It was funny in a sad way.  Every time he'd turn as if to leave the room she'd start crying.  Then instantly calm down the second he came back.  There are times that ds will pick dh over me, but its pretty rare.  

This morning went well in that ds wasn't too sad that I left for work.  No big meltdowns last night or this morning and that is a huge win.  

[raeoflyte]

Aug 8, 2013 8:58:34 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

OK, I am officially done giving any kind of advice or suggestions.

My 3 yr old took my 2 yr old out of the booster seat - undid the tray, unlatched the buckle and took him out bc "well, he was done eating".

Clearly,  I don't have a clue what I am doing

Doesn't sound so bad to me.  I think the 3 year old might have a new job in the mornings.  

[whoisjohngalt]

Aug 8, 2013 13:51:58 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

Aug 8, 2013 8:58:34 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

OK, I am officially done giving any kind of advice or suggestions.

My 3 yr old took my 2 yr old out of the booster seat - undid the tray, unlatched the buckle and took him out bc "well, he was done eating".

Clearly,  I don't have a clue what I am doing

Doesn't sound so bad to me.  I think the 3 year old might have a new job in the mornings.  

oh no, not bad at all, except he did it while I was in the bathroom and by the time I got downstairs my 2 yr old not only opened every puzzle and board game that he could find, he got a chance to fall off the couch and now has a huge red/turning blue bruise on his cheek.  My DH is going to think that I am slapping my kids around when he is not home

Oh and of course, since we always wash hands after a meal, my 3 yr old also dragged him into a bathroom to wash hands, so needless to say, I needed 3 towels to absorb all the water from around the sink and the floor.

Other than that - he did a great job

[raeoflyte]

Overall I'd say things have been better, but the couple meltdowns we've had were epic.

Dh takes ds to a parent/child tumbling class that ds loves. It was a really good day, but at the end of class they did a parachute game and ds didn't listen to come join in. They even stopped half way through and invited ds again but he still didn't listen. When he realized he missed out he lost it. Hopefully that will be a good incentive for next week to listen the first time.

The next big meltdown happened over candy, so we are now on a "break" from candy. We've always been lax about candy and juice because he did ok with it and we didn't want them to be off limits but it looks like we might have to switch gears.

Preschool starts in 2 weeks and I'm so curious to see how he does. Dh and I are wondering if we might end up "red shirting" him for kindergarten depending on how the year goes. His birthday is the end of June so he'd be one if the youngest and with the behavior we've been seeing we just don't think he's ready. But a lot can change in a year so we'll see.

[sbcalimom]

Rae - my DD1 is 4 and we're having the exact same issues as you.  She has major tantrums and meltdowns and doesn't want to listen to ANYTHING.  I'm hoping it's a phase because I may lose my mind before it is over.  

Thanks for the tips Lena - I'm going to try some for my LO too!

[raeoflyte]

That definitely makes me feel better!

Lena sent me some links that I liked that I'll forward. I was also reading something yesterday talking about how 4 year olds have the verbal ability to negotiate terms that they aren't emotionally mature enough to follow through on. I know I've been down that rabbit hole with ds which is just maddening.