What.ever.

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

So, explain to me why female bosses who are no nonsense perceived as mean and males are no nonsense are normal.


(I'm on week 15 of being the boss. Apparently I can come across as a little harsh. The reality is, I don't like to waste time. There's a lot of work to get done. I'm not a syrupy sweet person in general. I do spend some time with small talk and pleasantries. But, when its time to work, it's time to work. And I'm not going to pretend you're fabulous if your not. Okay, now fix me.)

[Deleted]

People always complain about demanding bosses, this is just the form it is taking for you. Assuming you are not a slave driver or making unreasonable demands don't worry about the gender slant. Men get just as much grief.

Also, there is always a hazing period for new folks no matter what role they go into. Work with integrity and you will win the respect of everyone but the complete idiots and you can deal with them later.

[lurkyloo]

We had a company photo shoot today. Photographer randomly asked (ordered) me to come sit in the front, I said "No." Didn't win me any brownie points, but it sure felt good.

I've been realizing lately that my don't-make-a-fuss attitude has not been serving me well, and working to change that/bring out the assertive side. Anyone who doesn't care for that can go suck it.

Hm, that probably didn't help much. Oh well. You're the boss; it's their job to please you not vice versa.

[susanb]

Chloe, I have worked in schools as a teacher and found the atmosphere to be incredibly political. Some of the schools I worked at even had a mob mentality. Even the quality teachers seemed to focus on petty stuff such as other teachers or administration.

I wouldn't sweat it. People will talk shit about you as a principal (or administrator, not sure what your job title is) if you are relaxed or hard core.

Honestly, I bitched about all of my principals even though I liked them because they were constantly heaping paperwork on me, and, taking me from my core competency of teaching to assist them as support staff. Yes, they were supervisors, but their primary function was as support staff, or it should have been. I liked all of my principals, I just got tired of the bureaucratic nonsense (I am sure they did too). At most schools, griping about supervisors is pretty much par for the course. I wouldn't take it personally.

[midjd]

At most schools, griping about supervisors is pretty much par for the course. I wouldn't take it personally.

I'd extend that to most workplaces, even. My boss is one of the kindest people I've ever met, and a great manager, but my coworkers still bitch about him. It's not personal - it's just what people do.

[Peace Of Mind]

Nov 19, 2012 21:58:45 GMT -5 lurkyloo said:

We had a company photo shoot today. Photographer randomly asked (ordered) me to come sit in the front, I said "No." Didn't win me any brownie points, but it sure felt good.

I've been realizing lately that my don't-make-a-fuss attitude has not been serving me well, and working to change that/bring out the assertive side. Anyone who doesn't care for that can go suck it.

Hm, that probably didn't help much. Oh well. You're the boss; it's their job to please you not vice versa.

;D It's funny but some people perceive me as sweet and some perceive me as a bitch and yet I'm the same to everybody. If you act normal I'm sweet. Act like a nut job/coo coo bird and I can be a bitch. When I was in management - do your job and I'm awesome. Don't do your job and piss off the clients - bitch! And by being a bitch I mean "Do your freaking job, asshole!!" but I said it in a nice way, of course. They just didn't want to hear it.

[lurkyloo]

POM, will you come manage at our company please? Many good people...and several that we all know not to ask for anything because they won't do a G--d--n thing. The facilities manager in particular seems to spend most of his time trying to push minimum wage level work off on scientists that cost the company $400 an hour.

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

I have gotten better about not taking things personally, but I think you're all correct that I need to make sure I'm not personalizing it.

I don't think I'm being a slave driver, but I do have high expectations.

I do need to remember that everyone complains about their bosses.

Thanks, ladies.

[susanb]

As usual, Chloe, you have a great attitude.

You demonstrate a lot of social skills in your posts and I bet you were a popular teacher, among students and staff. It is really hard to go from being one of "us" to one of "them."

[Deleted]

2 members of my team (males) feel our female boss favors women. They feel they will never get promoted because the female on our team will get promoted ahead of them..

Last 4 promotions on our team - males..

Theory busted..

Bottom line, some people do look at female bosses differently. Usually they are the people you wouldn't mind if they left the company.

[Deleted]

It has been my personal experience that Women bosses tend to get way too involved in the Politics of Pettiness and Personal. That employees seems to feel more comfortable in general going to women bosses to whine about stupid crap like their cube neighbor smacking their gum or other nonsense and that female bosses then seem to feel obligated to address all of this garbage. Just my opinion. I have worked with some great females and some who get too caught up in that crap.
Your style of leadership is your style of leadership and you need to find your level. However, keep in mind that being "the boss" is not a license to run roughshod over your employees either unless you want to lose a lot of highly skilled, valuable and motivated people. You have to strike that balance. If you treat people like children or incompetents, that is exactly how they are going to act. The best bosses are clear and direct about what they want, then they get out of the way and let their trusted employees do what they do best. Part of your role is also motivating and creating at "team" of people who WANT to follow your leadership.

[happyhoix]

Meh. I had a male facility manager tell me once that I needed to be more 'nice.'

I never heard him tell a male co-worker he had to be nice. And the facility manager himself was a jerk. He only like women who were waitresses, secretaries, hookers and his momma.

So frankly I didn't give a shit what he thought.

[violagirl]

I think it depends on the person. I am a female and I generally get along better with males. Generally there is less drama and I'm fairly businesslike at work and I don't care about the office xmas party for the kids or whatever. Who needs that? In my experience, most guys I have worked with have the same outlook toward work, so we get along.

I am able to work with female bosses, but I find they can sometimes be too passive. And in retrospect, I can be passive back. For example, my boss would never come right out and say "you did this wrong, you need to do it THIS way". I would just infer that i needed to change things. And I'm not the most..observant person to stuff like that, so sometimes when i would eventually get it I would be like..why didn't you just TELL me what you wanted in the FIRST place?!!!

I'm also slightly more competitive with females. I dunno where that comes from.

[thyme4change]

I've heard this many times - that men and women are perceived differently if they act the same - but I've called hundreds and hundreds of men "assholes" (behind their back) when they are no-nonsense or terse. The difference is that you don't see men writing books about how not to be perceived as assholes. They just don't care. Their theory is that they are getting things done, and sometimes people don't like it. Even people I really like, and really like working with have their asshole days. Even if they do feel bad about it - they just accept that this is part of being a boss.

I think women should stop whining about how somebody thinks they are mean, and just own it. Bosses are mean, even the men.

[thyme4change]

yeah the men don't care because it doesn't negatively impact further career advancement, in most cases.

Nothing in my 20 years of corporate business management proves to me that it negatively impacts women's prospects either. Executives know that you have to break a few eggs to make an omlet, and they care way more about results than how nice you are. If you want to keep moving up - get the job done while being as personable as possible. If the two won't work at the same time - pick completion over popularity. You will win - vagina or not.

[Deleted]

Nov 20, 2012 11:19:52 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I've heard this many times - that men and women are perceived differently if they act the same - but I've called hundreds and hundreds of men "assholes" (behind their back) when they are no-nonsense or terse. The difference is that you don't see men writing books about how not to be perceived as assholes. They just don't care. Their theory is that they are getting things done, and sometimes people don't like it. Even people I really like, and really like working with have their asshole days. Even if they do feel bad about it - they just accept that this is part of being a boss.

I think women should stop whining about how somebody thinks they are mean, and just own it. Bosses are mean, even the men.

yep.....

being the boss means sometimes being an asshole

business is business and friendship is friendship, and never the twain shall meet

you have to be able to seperate the two....and women being the far more social creatures, have an issue with this part at times

sometimes you have to do what you have to do....and your good employees will understand

[tskeeter]

Nov 19, 2012 21:37:54 GMT -5 Knee Deep in Water Chloe said:

So, explain to me why female bosses who are no nonsense perceived as mean and males are no nonsense are normal.


(I'm on week 15 of being the boss. Apparently I can come across as a little harsh. The reality is, I don't like to waste time. There's a lot of work to get done. I'm not a syrupy sweet person in general. I do spend some time with small talk and pleasantries. But, when its time to work, it's time to work. And I'm not going to pretend you're fabulous if your not. Okay, now fix me.)

I think there are two types of demanding bosses. Those who think their staff is a bunch of idiots who can't be trusted to do the simplest things on their own. And those whose staff is a bunch of super stars who are competent, creative, and who demonstrate a level of performance that others envy. One approach creates a staff that is insecure about their performance and becomes paralyzed over the possibility of making a mistake; the other exhibits confidence, challenges the status quo, and figures out how to compensate for their mistakes. Which message are you sending? Guess which boss gets the most support from their staff. Guess whose staff lives up or down to the expectations of their boss.

[Deleted]

There are more than 2 types of demanding bosses and way more than 2 reactions to said bosses.

[thyme4change]

There are more than 2 types of demanding bosses and way more than 2 reactions to said bosses.

I agree - employment is like marriage. You are part of a relationship that has an infinite number of possibilities. What works between two people, doesn't work between two other people. Relationships don't boil down into one neat little sentence.

[raeoflyte]

My sister is up for promotion and has been told that the regional managers (male) biggest concern is that she isn't nice enough. It's a touchy feely industry, but I told her that it would be better to own it and spin it that she's a go-getter than to try to be nice. But she isn't promoted yet, so I'm not sure my advice helped.

[thyme4change]

I will also say that some companies have different cultures - as seen by the wrongside thread of getting yelled at by a co-worker. I guess my company is the only one where people snarl and fight for what they need.

[Iggy aka IG]

Meh, I've been told I need to practice small talk w/ the gals at the home office. Never mind I'm the one who gives birthday and Christmas cards, etc. to them. A former district manager even gave me the Mr. Schmooze book.

[Deleted]

I'd be a lousy boss. Teachers have a certain no-nonsense voice (and stare) that probably wouldn't fly in the workplace.

It actually doesn't fly at home either. DH and my daughter don't like it when I get "that" tone. My son quit listening to me maybe 30 years ago.

[jitterbug]

I have been the boss at one point in my life and I think I did a decent job of it...but admit I would rather have a male boss. Too many women create drama and get too many hurt feelings. We have just one female boss in my company and she definitely gives women bosses a bad name. She's terribly moody and she's known to go off on her employees for things that she's more guilty of doing! Absolutely nobody respects her.

I will admit that a woman lives to different standards than men and its not really fair. I think it's because women smooze with each other more, so it's hard to see them as someone who DOES get to live by different rules. Like - I get a hour lunch, why does she get 90 minutes? But what I might not know is that she took a business call during lunch. Or stayed late last night, so is shopping for home since she ran out of time last night. But if you want me to treat you more like a boss, act like one, too!

[Nazgul Girl]

I've had many women bosses, and some have been more successful than others. I do feel that I picked up a little bit of the " I'm all that and a bag of chips " feeling from Chloe's original post. No offense, that's what I perceive in the below:

" (I'm on week 15 of being the boss. Apparently I can come across as a little harsh. The reality is, I don't like to waste time. There's a lot of work to get done. I'm not a syrupy sweet person in general. I do spend some time with small talk and pleasantries. But, when its time to work, it's time to work. And I'm not going to pretend you're fabulous if your not. Okay, now fix me.) "

If someone comes into a situation without much administrative experience, and just thinks they're so efficient and that everyone else has been wasting time and not working hard until their arrival, then to me, that's someone that's gonna fall of their high horse, and mighty quick, sometimes. I do think that the paragraph does show a condescending attitude. Maybe fifteen weeks isn't long enough to really know how good you are and what you are contributing to your team. You're not only their highest customer, but you may find that they're your highest customers ( besides students/parents ) that you have. You can't go very far unless your staff is behind you.

My new boss is kind of finding this out. She is a great person and is very nice, but her experience in coding and billing is either totally out-of-date or entirely lacking. I'm not sure which. But, I've been trying to help her get to know some of the ropes, as in basic stuff such as when to add a 25 modifier and what a global period is.....pretty easy stuff if you're in the medical billing and coding field. Makes me wonder a lot about her past experiences that she's supposed to have had. We don't think she's the second coming.

Just take yourself with a grain of salt and give some of your employees a chance to show that maybe they do know some stuff .

[Nazgul Girl]

Southernsusanna, I have had to tell my daughter to stop using her "teacher" voice on me a number of times. She denies that she's using it, and I just give her the "look." Sometimes it works, and sometimes, it doesn't.

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

Thanks for the perspectives, everyone.
Lots to think about as I navigate my way into this new role.

[thyme4change]

My favorite bosses (male and female) have been the ones that have patiently explained to me everything that is going on, and made me feel like I'm part of a bigger process. It has made my work better because I know where it comes from and where it is going, and I'm more likely to consider other people's needs - not just do what I think needs to be done. I agree with Nasgal that if Chloe thinks that explaining things adequately to her staff is "wasting time" she won't be all that successful. Sadly, she will go around telling people that she didn't succeed because she is female, and not be able to acknowledge her actual shortcomings as a boss.

[maraqxa]

Nov 20, 2012 22:43:13 GMT -5 jitterbug said:

I have been the boss at one point in my life and I think I did a decent job of it...but admit I would rather have a male boss. Too many women create drama and get too many hurt feelings. We have just one female boss in my company and she definitely gives women bosses a bad name. She's terribly moody and she's known to go off on her employees for things that she's more guilty of doing! Absolutely nobody respects her.

I will admit that a woman lives to different standards than men and its not really fair. I think it's because women smooze with each other more, so it's hard to see them as someone who DOES get to live by different rules. Like - I get a hour lunch, why does she get 90 minutes? But what I might not know is that she took a business call during lunch. Or stayed late last night, so is shopping for home since she ran out of time last night. But if you want me to treat you more like a boss, act like one, too!

Stop generalizing. There are terrible male bosses as well. If there's one thing that men do better than women is that no matter what they stick together, us women just attack each other.

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

Nov 27, 2012 10:44:38 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

My favorite bosses (male and female) have been the ones that have patiently explained to me everything that is going on, and made me feel like I'm part of a bigger process. It has made my work better because I know where it comes from and where it is going, and I'm more likely to consider other people's needs - not just do what I think needs to be done. I agree with Nasgal that if Chloe thinks that explaining things adequately to her staff is "wasting time" she won't be all that successful. Sadly, she will go around telling people that she didn't succeed because she is female, and not be able to acknowledge her actual shortcomings as a boss.

I really do appreciate your's and Nasgal's insights. I will say I'm not quite sure how either of you made this leap.

When I talk about wasting time, I'm referring to the long, ridiculous drawn out conversations about everything that doesn't have to do with work but with personal lives.

I absolutely believe in transparancy (with the caveat of confidentiality when it applies). I do believe my role is that of a facilitator, not a dictator. I'm not the most important person in the room. Ever. I have several organized groups of employees I meet with to discuss plans for the school so I can make informed decisions. I seek others opinions regularly.

In case there is more discussion about this topic, I started this thread because a specific person in my school has decided I don't respect her. Her conclusion has been reached because the previous principal was male and the perception is as a female I'm trying to keep her in her place as one of my secretaries. My predecessor apparantly spent half of his day with her--every day. I cannot get my job done if I do that. I just want her to do her job so I can do mine. She is annoyed that I listen to multiple opinions and not just hers. In her mind, this translates in to me being a bitch as opposed to someone with a different approach from the previous principal.

Again, I really do appreciate all your perspectives. I don't presume to be good at what I do. It's the end of November and I started in August. I've not held this position before though I've worked in admin the two previous years.