Need Parenting Advice

[Deleted]

As most of you know, i have 3 kids. Two sons 16 and 14 and DD who is 10. Anyway my younger son (K) and dd (M) do great in school. A students. They test advanced in most subjects and have even been in enrichment. And, they are good all around kids and play sports, music, other activities, etc.
My older son (C) is a great kid too. He does well socially, is a top athlete and very skilled mechanically. And, he is 6'4" and strong like Ox. But, he has been struggling with school since 6th grade. We have run the gamut of discipline, teacher conferences, tutoring, dentention, revoking privileges and on and on. And, no matter what he still seems to pull a couple of D's all the time. And, to my surprise a D is a passing grade so he can continue in that manner and get through HS.
THere are some subjects he does well at managed to pull an 87 in Physics. THere are some classes he does well in and some he just doesn't.
So, that is the backstory. ANd, he is Junior, btw.

My point. I wonder if he truly IS doing the best he can. Are there some things some people just don't get no matter how hard they try? I mean, you could beat me with a club and force me to learn Chinese and at this stage of my life, i doubt i could or i doubt i can remember to calculus. So, then i wonder if i am being too hard on him and he simply CANNOT. I know that i have been hard enough because we took away all of his privileges for a year including cell, video, etc to no effect.
And, i don't want to spend his last 2 yrs of HS fighting all the time with him either. He is kind, loving kid. And, for a career, i really don't forsee him going to a 4 yr school but see him going into some kind of trade or possibly the military.

So, what's your best advice?

[The Captain]

Shooby - you are usually the coolest most understanding parent on here so I'm sure you probably already have some ideas.

However - is there a trend to what he is good at vs what he has problems with? With any individual you always play to the strengths. The trick is to figuring out what brings out the best.

A 87 in physics is nothing to sneeze at. From some of your comments it appears that there may be a lack of clarity as to if it is ability or motivation which is driving the low grades. Have you even has his IQ tested? As much as some hate to admit it that is still a pretty good indicator of an individuals ability to learn.

If you suspect it is motivation then what get's him excited? Try to play off of that. Does he like physics? If so a career in HVAC may be a good, and lucrative, fit for someone who can understand the laws of nature. He's old enough now to get a part time job - maybe consider trying to apprentice to see if he would like it?

Good Luck.

[Wisconsin Beth]

I have a cousin who can't get math. She kept failing the math classes she needed to graduate college. As a result, she does not have her degree (this was probably in the 80s) in Child Developement. She tried but she just can't do that level of math. So yes, there are people that just can't do things.

As for me, I was pretty much a textbook example of a classic underachiever. i put in the effort on classes I liked and not on the ones I didn't. So I breeze though History course, do ok in English and Science and suck at Math above Algebra. Could I have done better. Absolutely. Was I motivated? No. If someone had sat me down and explained that if I wanted to take Physics, I needed to do well in X, Y and Q, I'd have probably done better. But I was shortsighted and didn't get that the math classes were part of the path for the interesting Science classes.

[seriousthistime]

You just described my oldest, to a T. His attitude was you go to class, take the test, get a grade. So what if it's a D? He was completely unmotivated at school. His teachers must have gotten a good laugh because I was on a committee a few years before that to get more AP and Honors classes at the high school. They must have thought I was delusional that it would benefit my kid. (Like you, I had two younger kids who were extremely motivated.)

He is 16. Does he drive? We used that as a threat to at least get him into C category. Anything less than a C and driving privileges would be revoked until the next report card. They had four quarter-report cards and midterm grades in each of those, so we had a lot of chance to review.

How do you know if he's doing the best he can? I'm sure he's been taking assessment tests for as long as he's been in school. Do you have any results of intelligence tests or other indications of ability? Lots of the tests are of performance, but usually there is at least one test he took to measure intelligence. Also, think back on teacher conferences. How often did they say he was not working to his capability? I'm assuming he's not in advanced classes, so he should be able to do fine in regular classes.

Sure, it would be difficult to learn Chinese. It would be difficult for me at this point to take higher level math or science. But if a student is not doing well in other subjects, that's probably due to a lack of motivation.

This seems to be a thing with some boys. My son graduated h.s., spent 5.5 years in college (3.5 in community college), and was in big demand in his field when he graduated. He's been employed ever since.

My coworker's son, same deal. The high school guidance counselor told them he was not college material, he flunked out of community college, and finally got motivated when he got serious with a girl who was academically motivated. Same with my boss's son. Some boys just need to grow up. "Skilled mechanically" sounds like he could be a good car mechanic, computer tech, etc. Do you have a community college nearby that would allow him to take a class as part of his h.s. graduation requirements or at night? If you can get him interested in the right thing, it could skyrocket from there. Our community college has vocational classes in all kinds of things.

Good luck.

[Deleted]

Thanks for the advice. The real issue for me is that i don't want to destroy my relationship with my son. I don't want to spend the next 2 yrs browbeating him. I have in fact already tried that. We both have. He is very motivated to do things he wants to do. He is a top football player. He trains hard. He lifts, he runs, he does drills. When he is dedicated he gives it his all. Academia and book work is just not his "thing". It is a bit difficult for me and DH to understand because we were both bookworms in school and college and did well. But, i do also recognize that everyone has different gifts, abilities and intelligence is not all about test taking and so forth. As for IQ, they do not test for this in our school. I suppose i could request that, i don't know. He was tested for ADHD and we did try a stint of medication but it didn't seem to make a difference either way so we stopped that with the doctor's consent of course. He is a bit of a disorganized person.
However, there are many kinds of people. I call him the "Throw yourself on the grenade" type. I mean that as a high compliment. He is the kind of person who if in a war zone, would absolutely do that. My other son is more "General" material. He would have to ponder the pros and cons and study the situation before making a decision. The world needs both kinds of people. (And, btw, those are just my pet monikers and i don't mean anything negative whatsoever, so anyone who reads that into that is missing what i am saying).

[Deleted]

captain - Those are great points and you are right. I should focus on playing to his strengths. He is old enough now that he either has the internal motivation to do better in those classes or not. It really is up to him at this point. And, i have pretty much taken my hands off the wheel and told him his future is in his hands.

[raeoflyte]

My dh wasn't interested in school. Only graduated by bs'ing his teachers with sob stories. But is way smarter than I am and his crappy grades hasn't had any effect on him later in life. He started at a community college so his high school grades didn't matter once he went to a state university.

I have no suggestions on what to do as a parent, but just wanted to give you the other side. It is likely a temporary problem.

[Deleted]

I truly do believe he will do well in life. He is a hard worker and physically very strong and imposing. I really think he would do great in some type of mechanical, construction, HVAC, etc career.

[wvugurl26]

My brother was like that. Nothing worked for him. If he was interested and wanted to apply himself he would. He decided to take standardized testing seriously a couple years. Didn't miss a question on the two math portions either year. His math teacher wanted to strangle him.

His SAT/ACT scores were very high. He was in NJROTC at a school with 6 guaranteed spots at the Naval Academy. He had options even with his poor grades.

Our guidance counselor pulled strings to get him into a 2 year electrical tech program in high school. He did well in there and would have come out with a semester's worth of college credits but his gpa in other classes was too low.

His senior year, my dad and stepmom split up. Dad was tired of brow beating him. He told him he didn't care what he did but he better graduate in the spring and he did.

At the end of his senior year, DC Metro sent a letter to the electrical program recruiting electricians. He and his best friend went and got jobs. They still hold the top 2 scores on the entry test for electricians.

He has his master electrician's license now. He is way smarter than me and I'm the one with a bachelor's, a master's and cpa licenses in two states. He also outearns me.

I know it might be hard to step back since he is the oldest but it worked with my brother. He's very smart, he just doesn't do it if he's not interested. He is also borderline ADHD. Hell I have a hard time concentrating if I find it boring.

Ask him where he sees himself going after hs and help him prepare for that path. Not everyone goes to a 4 yr school and its ok. My brother would like to and could get a mechanical engineering degree but it is on hold for the moment. It would give him more opportunities but it is on hold till he switches jobs. If he'd gone right after hs, it wouldn't have happened.

[Deleted]

I think the thing parents fear is that their kids won't get traction to get going. I have seen some who just never seem to get it together after HS. And, i think sending him to a 4 yr college would be a recipe for disaster and i already told him that unless he demonstrates some seriousness in that regard, that he is going to have to look at another avenue. And, he even said he didn't want to go to a 4 yr college. My only concern is that he could get offered a football scholarship and i really dont' want that to sway him to go to college. Football is not going to be his career and i don't want him choosing based on that which is essentially a hobby. I found a school of Heavy Equipment Operating that is like a 3 month program and they teach heavy equipment and he could get some certificate to run a Crane and so forth. That sounds like a viable option. Also looking into auto mechanic schools and other trades.

[andi9899]

What have his teachers said? When asked, do they say he is having trouble understanding? Do they think he plays around too much? Embrace what he's good at and try and get him help with what he struggles with. That's all you can do.

I have 2 girls and one is a math/science brain who can't draw a stick person. She sees fact. She can do some pretty elaborate equations and wants to go into medicine. The other one can draw you works of art but she struggles with math/science. She sees abstract and struggles with the factual learning. She is thinking about becoming a chef when she grows up. You have to encourage the good and work on the rest.

[wvugurl26]

Maybe your area is better but around my home state, construction is struggling. Most of the guys I know who work in construction, work out of state. He's young though, he could move to an area with better prospects.

Help him explore other avenues besides a 4 year college. Look into tech schools in the area. Just make it clear he needs to be doing something after high school, playing video games all day isn't an option. My dad made his expectations clear and my brother lived up to them and did very well.

My stepmom swore my brother would be the one who didn't fly the nest. Well he was the first one of all of us to do so and the youngest. Her son with the 4 yr degree is the non starter between the three of us.

[wvugurl26]

My brother is very much a math/science/history person. English is not his thing at all. Spell check is his best friend. He's also very good at explaining how things work to me.

I am not the mechanical genius of the family!

[andi9899]

found a school of Heavy Equipment Operating that is like a 3 month program and they teach heavy equipment and he could get some certificate to run a Crane and so forth. That sounds like a viable option. Also looking into auto mechanic schools and other trades.

There's nothing wrong with being a mechanic. He can earn a decent living doing so. It's probably the perfect fit for him.

[Deleted]

I would think that if he's pretty intelligent then working a crane all day might become boring. I worked a bunch of crappy jobs when I failed out of college and the thing that was missing from all of them was that I didn't have to think to do any of them.
I believe HVAC or Mechanic might be a better choice because he will be using his brain.

[Wisconsin Beth]

Well, what about a military career?

[raeoflyte]

Nov 13, 2012 9:09:32 GMT -5 @shooby said:

I think the thing parents fear is that their kids won't get traction to get going. I have seen some who just never seem to get it together after HS. And, i think sending him to a 4 yr college would be a recipe for disaster and i already told him that unless he demonstrates some seriousness in that regard, that he is going to have to look at another avenue. And, he even said he didn't want to go to a 4 yr college. My only concern is that he could get offered a football scholarship and i really dont' want that to sway him to go to college. Football is not going to be his career and i don't want him choosing based on that which is essentially a hobby. I found a school of Heavy Equipment Operating that is like a 3 month program and they teach heavy equipment and he could get some certificate to run a Crane and so forth. That sounds like a viable option. Also looking into auto mechanic schools and other trades.

I doubt that you are, but I wouldn't try to limit him. Highschool might not be his thing, but college could be. If you're footing the bill then you get a vote of course, but if he got a full ride scholarship somewhere I wouldn't discourage him from it. Just present the options and let him choose.

I doubt dh even pulled a 2.0 in hs, but had a 4.0 for his associates and over a 3.5 for his bachelors even though he worked full time through that.

[misplacedbrit]

Have you tested him for ADD?

My son was honor role in fifth grade, then just went downhill.

Thing is, he KNOWS the stuff, he was woken in class (yes, he was asleep) and answered the questions no one else could answer.
ADD was a slow thing for us, he is incredibly smart, just his brain doesn't connect all the time.

Its also boredom - I always wonder if they had chucked him the deep end with harder work, would he have swam better when challenged?

[Deleted]

Nov 13, 2012 9:50:58 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

Nov 13, 2012 9:09:32 GMT -5 @shooby said:

I think the thing parents fear is that their kids won't get traction to get going. I have seen some who just never seem to get it together after HS. And, i think sending him to a 4 yr college would be a recipe for disaster and i already told him that unless he demonstrates some seriousness in that regard, that he is going to have to look at another avenue. And, he even said he didn't want to go to a 4 yr college. My only concern is that he could get offered a football scholarship and i really dont' want that to sway him to go to college. Football is not going to be his career and i don't want him choosing based on that which is essentially a hobby. I found a school of Heavy Equipment Operating that is like a 3 month program and they teach heavy equipment and he could get some certificate to run a Crane and so forth. That sounds like a viable option. Also looking into auto mechanic schools and other trades.

I doubt that you are, but I wouldn't try to limit him. Highschool might not be his thing, but college could be. If you're footing the bill then you get a vote of course, but if he got a full ride scholarship somewhere I wouldn't discourage him from it. Just present the options and let him choose.

I doubt dh even pulled a 2.0 in hs, but had a 4.0 for his associates and over a 3.5 for his bachelors even though he worked full time through that.

Good points. If he really showed the desire to buckle down and was presented with that situation, then of course i would go for it and see what would develop. Right now, that probably isn't too promising because he just came off a pretty tough knee injury that has kept him for most of his football season and probably half of his basketball season too.

[Deleted]

Nov 14, 2012 1:36:35 GMT -5 misplacedbrit said:

Have you tested him for ADD?

My son was honor role in fifth grade, then just went downhill.

Thing is, he KNOWS the stuff, he was woken in class (yes, he was asleep) and answered the questions no one else could answer.
ADD was a slow thing for us, he is incredibly smart, just his brain doesn't connect all the time.

Its also boredom - I always wonder if they had chucked him the deep end with harder work, would he have swam better when challenged?

We did test him for ADD. It is kind of a subjective diagnosis in some ways. He does fit the profile and the doctor thought it would be worthy to try some medication so we did but it didn't make any difference one way or the other.
Boredom? The material is plenty challenging enough. He is "bored" because he would rather be doing what he wants to do. And, in reality, life and every job and everything we have to do comes with a certain amount of boredom. He has to learn to deal with that as well.

[misplacedbrit]

Are you sure we are not sharing a son? lol

[Clever Username]

Most of my input has already been spoken for.
Here's one interesting tid bit, seems to apply very well for your son.
Do you know what the #1 trait correlated with successful leaders is?
GPA, college choice, chosen profession, major?
Nope
No
Nada
Nein

It's height.
Don't let him loose his confidence.

[p8nt]

Nov 14, 2012 9:56:24 GMT -5 misplacedbrit said:

Are you sure we are not sharing a son? lol

They must have been triplets separated at birth!

Your son sounds just like mine. I'm holding my breath until he gets handed that diploma in June. He has struggled every single year. We also tried ADHD medication and it didn't really do much to help him, as a matter of fact, after he hit puberty, it made his attitude worse. He's super smart, IF HE'S INTERESTED. If he's not then it really won't matter to him. Getting a D is just fine in his book because "it's passing, isn't it?"

I have finally stopped nagging him over school work. I have decided that I can't want success for him, he has to want it. He understands that if he fails math this semester, then he will be going to an extra math class next semester, which will require him to quit wrestling. But he thinks in his totally unrealistic 17 year old mind, that his wrestling coach will let him miss practice 2 or 3 days a week while he goes to the extra math class. That's how out of touch with reality he is. I am really worried how he's going to be successful when he has such unrealistic views of the world.

You sound like a great parent, so I'm sure you have already tried this. But have you thought about getting a tutor? Not a relative, but an outside tutor? I am quite capable of helping DS with his school work, but it becomes a head-butting issue and too stressful. The tutor has been great.

[murphath]

Our DS is just as you described. If he wasn't interested in a subject, then he would only do the bare minimum. No D's but plenty of C's. If he liked a subject, then he was in full bore. History and Drama were the two he loved. Math and Science were a no go. His two older sisters are science geeks. As the youngest of 7 myself, part of me thinks he was just trying to do something different from his "perfect" (his words) sisters. He has his degree in Theater, emphasis in performance and is working this year before applying for grad school.

I do think boys take a little longer. I also think they feel more stress when they are the oldest. He says he doesn't want to go to college but I bet he would change his mind if offered the football scholarship. If he does get one, make sure the school has a good tutoring program for the athletes AND a person assigned to make sure they are going to class and doing the work. If your DS is doing that well in Physics, then he has the smarts. He just hasn't discovered his niche or what floats his boat. I wouldn't sweat high school too much. All is not lost. As long as he's completed Alg. 2 and a Physical and Biological science, he's good to go. He'll need to get at least an 800 on the SAT in order to qualify for a football scholarship. Is he registered with the NCAA yet? Make sure to get that done.

I'm sure your son will find his way. As I said, I sincerely think it takes boys longer. My best friend's two boys didn't hit their groove until their mid-twenties when they finally decided to go to college. The first is a computer programmer and the second has his MBA.

Enjoy his high school years and his accomplishments on the football field. Let him know he needs to pass his classes, and you wish he would put in more effort, but that it's in his hands. That might relieve some of the stress for both of you and maybe make him realize he wants to do better than he has.

Good luck.

[misplacedbrit]

Boys ARE harder, yes we worry less because they cant get pregnant etc.

But Girls have better support systems, they talk to each other - usually about the boys, there are magazines for girls
There is nothing for Boys, no support system because its not manly to talk about fears and insecurities, no magazines, nada

They bottle everything up inside, and we only find out when they can take no more.

My son went thru hell, physically, and mentally, being told he was ADD, was a blessing, we had a name for it - BUT, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink, right?
You can get a diagnosis, medication, but you cant make them take it.

Strattera, did nothing, I cant recall the last one he was prescribed, but it worked, his mind connected, it was awesome!
But the side effects made him stop taking it - no appetite, slow growth, the feeling that he wasn't really himself..

So here we are, no Diploma, no GED, hes 20, barely works.

[Deleted]

I have this issue with my DD. I have four kids, three boys, one girl. Most people say that girls are more academic. Not in my house, for sure.

My first thought was that if your son got that grade in physics, he is bright, and not LD (my DD is bright but not academic and she is LD, she has processing problems. She will "get it" but it takes her longer than the average kid.)

I think you are VERY wise to not want to push your son too hard and damage your relationship. In retrospect I think we pushed DD too hard. I do not have a good relationship with her, which breaks my heart. I have a great relationship with her three brothers. I know age factors into that too, so I am hoping our relationship will continue to improve (she is 20 now and it is finally starting to).

My DD got into mainstream HS by the skin of her teeth (much stricter guidelines here in France than in the US). After 10th grade she was told she had to either repeat the year, or transfer into 11th grade at a vocational HS. She transferred into 11th grade at a hospitality HS, in a special program created for 20 kids just like her. She totally excelled there, although she struggled and still hated "school" (she LOVED her internships though).

Now she is at a great, well-reputed Hotel Management University, starting her second year (college is three years here). Same thing, she HATES the classes, but loves working in the school restaurant, and is fantasizing about where she will go for her next internship.

So the other day when DD did her nightly "I'm quitting school!" thang I said, go for it. If you want to quit, quit. I can't work FT and PT and mark papers and prep classes and tutor and deal with DH and his medical issues and the house and the other kids and the rentals AND your nightly psychodrama. So, if you want to quit, then quit. Try to get money back from the school, if you can't, I'll take you to the bank, you're 20, you can take out a loan and pay me back because although I'm more than happy to pay for college if you go, I'm NOT happy to pay for college if you don't. (I signed the papers saying I'd pay for her second year).

It's only been a few days but not ONE peep from her since. I sincerely hope it lasts because those episodes are just horrific. I probably should never have pushed her so far. We found a one-year certification course for her last year when she told us she failed all her finals (she was wrong). She decided that one-year course was carp compared to where she is (she was right) and she refused to do it.

So, one way or another, I'm guessing your higher standards ARE rubbing off on your DS, even if you don't realize it now.

Shooby I think you are definitely on the right track with your son. But, since I think you can afford it, the best thing I could suggest is to take your son to a private career counselor. I paid a bomb to take DD for a full-day private evaluation a few years ago. It was money VERY well spent.

[Deleted]

The doc who monitored DD for her LD issues told us when she was 4, if you don't push her enough, she'll go nowhere. And if you don't push her hard enough, she'll go nowhere too.

After 16 years of negotiating the fine line between not hard enough and too hard, I am just done. If she stays in school I will continue to do all I can to help her. If she doesn't, basta.

Again, I would really encourage you to take your son to a private career counselor.

Best of luck to both of you.

[misplacedbrit]

I hate to say this, but it's nice to know I share both my DD and my DS with all of you, because its sure been quite a few lonely years trying to work them out.

[wvugurl26]

Nov 16, 2012 10:52:13 GMT -5 p8nt said:

Nov 14, 2012 9:56:24 GMT -5 misplacedbrit said:

Are you sure we are not sharing a son? lol

They must have been triplets separated at birth!

Your son sounds just like mine. I'm holding my breath until he gets handed that diploma in June. He has struggled every single year. We also tried ADHD medication and it didn't really do much to help him, as a matter of fact, after he hit puberty, it made his attitude worse. He's super smart, IF HE'S INTERESTED. If he's not then it really won't matter to him. Getting a D is just fine in his book because "it's passing, isn't it?"

I have finally stopped nagging him over school work. I have decided that I can't want success for him, he has to want it. He understands that if he fails math this semester, then he will be going to an extra math class next semester, which will require him to quit wrestling. But he thinks in his totally unrealistic 17 year old mind, that his wrestling coach will let him miss practice 2 or 3 days a week while he goes to the extra math class. That's how out of touch with reality he is. I am really worried how he's going to be successful when he has such unrealistic views of the world.

You sound like a great parent, so I'm sure you have already tried this. But have you thought about getting a tutor? Not a relative, but an outside tutor? I am quite capable of helping DS with his school work, but it becomes a head-butting issue and too stressful. The tutor has been great.

That is what finally worked for my dad. He was just tired of nagging. He told him he damn well better graduate in the spring. And honestly for the first couple weeks after dad split with stepmom, dad didn't have the time to nag him.

My brother's very smart. Math, science, history, all that stuff. English he struggles a little but he's smart enough to muddle through with a B if he tried. Spelling is not his forte. It helps if he's interested.

He's well read, well rounded, very mechanical and so on. My grandma says it takes longer for boys. She raised two of her own and half raised my brother. And it was almost like a switch flipped with my brother around 25. He'll be 26 next month. I lived in the same house as him briefly two years ago. The difference between then and now is night and day.

[p8nt]

Oh dear Lord! Those of us with boys have to wait so long for the light bulb to go on? Good to know at least there's an end of the tunnel somewhere.

I've made it very clear to my DS that if he doesn't graduate in June then he's on his own. No adult child will live in my house unless they're enrolled in college and working p/t. My kids have had far more support and opportunity than my sister and I did, yet we both managed to graduate from college with no help from our parents, but homes, get good jobs, etc.