Christians and Voting

[mmhmm]

Ooh! It just occurred to me! Virgil, the spiritual side of the voting issue might be a very interesting discussion for the Religious Discussions thread!

[Deleted]

What aspects were you thinking of ?

[Virgil Showlion]

Ooh! It just occurred to me! Virgil, the spiritual side of the voting issue might be a very interesting discussion for the Religious Discussions thread!

Perhaps so.

Scripture, the only authority by which the moral "rightness" of an action should be judged for Christians, is notably silent on the matter of voting or running for public office in a democracy.

What is known (and I have sources buried somewhere for interested parties) is that members of the first century Christian church—the so-called "Apostolic churches" established by Christ's apostles—did not hold public office. Public officials in Rome, including military officers and soldiers, renounced those positions upon being baptized.

This is understandable for a number of reasons. Firstly, because an elected public official is beholden to the will of his constituents. On matters intercepting scripture, he might well become caught in a dilemma of serving "two masters" (Matthew 6:24). Secondly, because true Christians have been called out of the world. "The world" is a topic that requires several Bible studies just by itself, but suffice it to say refers to every practice and belief in the world that is contrary to God's way of life.

A summary verse for this second point is John 15:19 (AKJV), which reads:

If you were of the world, the world would love his own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

Holding public office may require a man to submit to the views of the world rather than coming out of it. His profession may compromise his ability to speak scriptural truth, or he may be compelled to publicly tolerate and accept ideas that should not be tolerated or accepted. This is especially true today.

The issue of whether or not Christians should vote is muddier.

Some churches, most notably the Jehova's Witness church and (I believe) the 7th Day Adventists, encourage their members not to vote as a matter of respecting a Christian's true citizenship is in the Kingdom of God. They echo many of my concerns about the negative effects of voting—the fact that it divides people and sets up artificial barriers between men.

Some small groups take the concept even further by suggesting that Christians should not even be respecters of nationality and worldly citizenship. They argue (correctly) that no such artificial political divisions will exist in the Kingdom of God. But scripture does show us that Paul invoked his Roman citizenship on several occasions (read through the Book of Acts). And most Christians are very familiar with Mark 12:17 ("Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.") when Jesus was asked about the issue of whether it was lawful to pay taxes to a Gentile emperor. Christians are also instructed in numerous passages to respect the officials and leaders placed over them.

For example, Romans 13:7:

Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

And Hebrews 13:7:

Obey your leaders, and submit to them; for they keep watch over your souls, as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

Clearly we see that many of the major duties of citizenship apply. I personally see little merit to the argument that we should not sing national anthems or identify as "Canadians" and "Americans" if we hold citizenship in those countries.

The issue of whether Christians should salute a flag is another point of contention. Some groups consider it to be showing reverence to an icon. I fortunately don't have to worry about it since Canadians don't salute our flag. ;D

As Christians, we must remember that our duty is to diligently study scripture and concern ourselves only with what God thinks is right, not with what the world or our society at large thinks is right.

I'll leave my summary at that for now and let somebody else get a word in edgewise.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

The National Motto E pluribus unum (out of many, one), was placed onto early US currency. It was in later years replaced with "In God We Trust".

They also have "One Nation Under God" in their Pledge of Allegiance.

So whatever the outcome the election turns out to be, and no matter how people voted, maybe they should trust in God that that was His divine plan for that person to win.

[Virgil Showlion]

So whatever the outcome the election turns out to be, and no matter how people voted, maybe they should trust in God that that was His divine plan for that person to win.

It also says in Daniel 4:17:

The sentence is by the decree of the watchers, the decision by the word of the holy ones, to the end that the living may know that the Most High rules the kingdom of men and gives it to whom he will and sets over it the lowliest of men.

In other words, we get the politicians we deserve.

[cranberry49]

Nov 1, 2012 19:39:54 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Ooh! It just occurred to me! Virgil, the spiritual side of the voting issue might be a very interesting discussion for the Religious Discussions thread!

Perhaps so.

Scripture, the only authority by which the moral "rightness" of an action should be judged for Christians, is notably silent on the matter of voting or running for public office in a democracy.

What is known (and I have sources buried somewhere for interested parties) is that members of the first century Christian church—the so-called "Apostolic churches" established by Christ's apostles—did not hold public office. Public officials in Rome, including military officers and soldiers, renounced those positions upon being baptized.

This is understandable for a number of reasons. Firstly, because an elected public official is beholden to the will of his constituents. On matters intercepting scripture, he might well become caught in a dilemma of serving "two masters" (Matthew 6:24). Secondly, because true Christians have been called out of the world. "The world" is a topic that requires several Bible studies just by itself, but suffice it to say refers to every practice and belief in the world that is contrary to God's way of life.

A summary verse for this second point is John 15:19 (AKJV), which reads:

If you were of the world, the world would love his own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

Holding public office may require a man to submit to the views of the world rather than coming out of it. His profession may compromise his ability to speak scriptural truth, or he may be compelled to publicly tolerate and accept ideas that should not be tolerated or accepted. This is especially true today.

The issue of whether or not Christians should vote is muddier.

Some churches, most notably the Jehova's Witness church and (I believe) the 7th Day Adventists, encourage their members not to vote as a matter of respecting a Christian's true citizenship is in the Kingdom of God. They echo many of my concerns about the negative effects of voting—the fact that it divides people and sets up artificial barriers between men.

Some small groups take the concept even further by suggesting that Christians should not even be respecters of nationality and worldly citizenship. They argue (correctly) that no such artificial political divisions will exist in the Kingdom of God. But scripture does show us that Paul invoked his Roman citizenship on several occasions (read through the Book of Acts). And most Christians are very familiar with Mark 12:17 ("Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.") when Jesus was asked about the issue of whether it was lawful to pay taxes to a Gentile emperor. Christians are also instructed in numerous passages to respect the officials and leaders placed over them.

For example, Romans 13:7:

Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

And Hebrews 13:7:

Obey your leaders, and submit to them; for they keep watch over your souls, as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

Clearly we see that many of the major duties of citizenship apply. I personally see little merit to the argument that we should not sing national anthems or identify as "Canadians" and "Americans" if we hold citizenship in those countries.

The issue of whether Christians should salute a flag is another point of contention. Some groups consider it to be showing reverence to an icon. I fortunately don't have to worry about it since Canadians don't salute our flag. ;D

As Christians, we must remember that our duty is to diligently study scripture and concern ourselves only with what God thinks is right, not with what the world or our society at large thinks is right.

I'll leave my summary at that for now and let somebody else get a word in edgewise.

Excellent post, virgil! I totally agree!

[Deleted]

How about when Israel asked God for a king and here was the response:

Samuel speaks to the people of Israel about their desire for a king.



1. (10-18) Samuel warns the nation of the responsibilities of having a king.



So Samuel told all the words of the Lord to the people who asked him for a king. And he said, “This will be the behavior of the king who will reign over you: He will take your sons and appoint them for his own chariots and to be his horsemen, and some will run before his chariots. He will appoint captains over his thousands and captains over his fifties, will set some to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and some to make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. He will take your daughters to be perfumers, cooks, and bakers. And he will take the best of your fields, your vineyards, and your olive groves, and give them to his servants. He will take a tenth of your grain and your vintage, and give it to his officers and servants. And he will take your male servants, your female servants, your finest young men, and your donkeys, and put them to his work. He will take a tenth of your sheep. And you will be his servants. And you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, and the Lord will not hear you in that day.”



a. This will be the behavior of the king who will reign over you: God wanted Israel to know there would be problems connected with having a king. In Israel’s view, they had problems that would be solved by having a king. While those problems may have been solved, God wanted them to know a king would bring other problems also. They should carefully weigh the benefits against the problems.



i. Many people fail to do this properly today. When a problem come up, they think up an answer that brings worse problems with it. But they don’t maturely look at the situation and anticipate the problems the solution will bring. Others will never do anything unless they can come up with a “perfect” solution - one that has no problems. There rarely is a perfect solution, but that doesn’t mean we should do nothing. It means we should maturely look at, and measure the good and the bad, pray for guidance, wait on the Lord, and step out in faith.



b. He will take . . . He will take . . . he will take . . . He will take . . . he will take . . . He will take . . . And you will be his servants: The Lord, through the prophet Samuel, is giving fair warning. Most kings are takers, not givers, and they come to be served, not to serve. If Israel wants a king, they must realize he will be a taker, not a giver, and they will be his servants.



i. Not every king is a “taking” king. The King of Kings is a giving king. Jesus said of Himself, the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve (Matthew 20:28). Paul carried the same thought: Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. (Philippians 2:5-8)



ii. 1 Peter 2:9 calls us a royal priesthood. If we are royalty, let us be like our King Jesus: a giving King, not a taking king.



c. And you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen: Why would Israel cry out? Because they wanted a king for unspiritual, ungodly reasons. So God will call this coming king your king, and make it clear that he is the king whom you have chosen. If Israel had waited for God’s king, they would not have needed to cry out unto the Lord.

www.enduringword.com/commentaries/0908.htm

[Deleted]

Sometimes we are looking to the government and leaders to do things for us rather than looking at how we can take care of ourselves or our neighbors.

[Virgil Showlion]

Indeed.

for your insights.

[ktunes]

also...in daniel 2

20 Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his:

21 And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:

[Deleted]

One nation under God was added in the 1950s.

[Artemis Windsong]

Just because we pray for Godly leaders in our government and busineses doesn't mean we, as an individual, will be treated fairly. We do need to pray for our leaders in many areas of leadership.

ETA: Thanks for the link to the commentary.

[Deleted]

I had no idea this thread was here until moments ago. Very interesting. I don't have much to add, but wanted to say how I agree with all of what's been posted, taken directly from the bible and some of the opinions made by posters..

I believe voting is the citizen's right to choose whether to vote or not to vote. I know what the Christian's assignment is concerning secular governing bodies should they take on the mission, is to simply pray..

The following words were spoken by Paul the apostle to the church concerning their roles on behalf of all leaders in government.

First Timothy-- 2 I exhort therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, be made for all men;

2 for kings and all that are in high place; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and gravity. <- (key and operative verse for the believer)

3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus.. 6 who gave himself a ransom for all...

To the Christian who chose to vote or not to vote... And no matter the outcome..

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. (ASV)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgMkLxKJdg0
[/youtube]

[Deleted]

Here's a bit of how I am feeling right now in song-

[cme1201]

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. (ASV)

Why do so many leave off the last and most important part of this verse?

,who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

[Reckless Roselia]

As Christians, we must remember that our duty is to diligently study scripture and concern ourselves only with what God thinks is right, not with what the world or our society at large thinks is right.

Shouldn't it be both?

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

...Virgil, after your mention of this thread, I've stopped in... but sadly, I'm already piqued by one of your first points...

<<< Scripture, the only authority by which the moral "rightness" of an action should be judged for Christians, is notably silent on the matter of voting or running for public office in a democracy. >>>

...as I see it, scripture tells Christians that, post-Pentecost, we have the added authority of the Holy Spirit to guide and counsel us in areas for which the Bible is not explicit... would you agree?

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

<<< Jesus said of Himself, the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve (Matthew 20:28). >>>

...Shooby raises a point here that makes me wonder if it can be viewed as applicable to voting... insofar as to question how better a citizen can serve his nation but with his vote?

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

...interesting thread... and there is much to consider...

[Virgil Showlion]

...as I see it, scripture tells Christians that, post-Pentecost, we have the added authority of the Holy Spirit to guide and counsel us in areas for which the Bible is not explicit... would you agree?

God's Holy Spirit is a multidimensional topic.

As a brief response to your question, I'll say 'yes'. A slightly more detailed reply consistent with LCG doctrines follows here and here.

Judgment of certain matters is also granted to the Body of Christ—the Church.

Insofar as I'm aware, all of the Sabbatarian churches discourage voting. The ministry of the church I attend (Living Church of God) discourages it for the simple reason that politics has a habit of infecting people's faith and becoming a trap to them. We've seen several prominent examples in this past US election season.

Politics can be a bit like drinking. A little bit every once in a while is harmless, or even beneficial. More than a little bit every once in a while can cause problems. Everything from anxiety, contention, delusion and distraction ranging all the way up to outright rage and hatred. It's not surprising that scripturally-minded churches discourage voting, since an election is a high-stakes competition. People invest themselves emotionally and even monetarily in the outcomes, often to their own detriment.

Regarding voting as a civic duty, it's a tricky subject. On one hand, we acknowledge that mankind must be governed and a democracy can only function with an engaged electorate. On the other hand, God is aware of the statistical pointlessness of my vote in determining the outcome of an election. Moreover, we note that all of the governments sanctioned or established by God in the Bible—heavenly government, earthly government over the Israelites, church government, etc.—are top-down and hierarchical in nature, completely antithetical to democracy. Indeed I believe one of the lessons mankind will learn prior to Christ's return is that democracy fails as an ideal. Hence: Is it profitable for us to partake in a system of governance doomed to failure? Does our participation even have any meaningful effect?

Questions worth asking.

It's not a hugely troubling issue for me. Politics aren't anywhere near as pervasive in Canadian culture as they are in the US.

[Deleted]

Nov 15, 2012 1:23:51 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

...as I see it, scripture tells Christians that, post-Pentecost, we have the added authority of the Holy Spirit to guide and counsel us in areas for which the Bible is not explicit... would you agree?

God's Holy Spirit is a multidimensional topic.

As a brief response to your question, I'll say 'yes'. A slightly more detailed reply consistent with LCG doctrines follows here and here.


Politics can be a bit like drinking. A little bit every once in a while is harmless, or even beneficial. More than a little bit every once in a while can cause problems. Everything from anxiety, contention, delusion and distraction ranging all the way up to outright rage and hatred. It's not surprising that scripturally-minded churches discourage voting, since an election is a high-stakes competition. People invest themselves emotionally and even monetarily in the outcomes, often to their own detriment.

Have you admitted yet that you have a politics problem?

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

<<< Questions worth asking. >>>

...true... but I can't deny that I'd have a hard time agreeing with a pulpit that discourages civic participation based upon the contention that congregants are too weak to withstand temptation... imo, that discounts God's sovereignty... and counters God's direction for us to be "in the world" (John 17) or to be salt/light (Matt 5)... still, I am only one part in this body... and I haven't had much time to think on the matter...

[Virgil Showlion]

Have you admitted yet that you have a politics problem?

I've discussed my involvement on a politics and current affairs board with other church members. We're all accountable for our own actions before God. It's not as if members police each other's activities, unless there's an obvious problem.

The thing is: I'm not interested in politics. I couldn't have cared less who won the US presidential election. My interest in the electoral debates and the various 'scandals' was superficial and academic. And with only one exception, I've never felt anger towards a fellow P&Mer for endorsing or opposing a particular candidate.

My interest is in keeping up with world affairs and debating ideas. I've given up participating in the abortion and gay 'marriage' threads for sake of my equanimity, but other interesting topics do creep up from time to time. (The morality of racism and anti-racism, the politicization of prayer, the erosion of personal liberties are three recent examples.) The Bible does instruct us very explicitly to be watchful and alert of worldly goings-on.

Add to that the fact that my P&M contributions are typically limited to 20 posts a week, and I consider the "political toxicity" of my involvement there to be low. More specifically: I've held my present degree of involvement there up to the mirror of God's laws and scriptures, and judged that the board is still a spiritually profitable use of my time.

[Deleted]

Nov 15, 2012 9:39:21 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Have you admitted yet that you have a politics problem?

I've discussed my involvement on a politics and current affairs board with other church members. We're all accountable for our own actions before God. It's not as if members police each other's activities, unless there's an obvious problem.

The thing is: I'm not interested in politics. I couldn't have cared less who won the US presidential election. My interest in the electoral debates and the various 'scandals' was superficial and academic. And with only one exception, I've never felt anger towards a fellow P&Mer for endorsing or opposing a particular candidate.

My interest is in keeping up with world affairs and debating ideas. I've given up participating in the abortion and gay 'marriage' threads for sake of my equanimity, but other interesting topics do creep up from time to time. (The morality of racism and anti-racism, the politicization of prayer, the erosion of personal liberties are three recent examples.) The Bible does instruct us very explicitly to be watchful and alert of worldly goings-on.

Add to that the fact that my P&M contributions are typically limited to 20 posts a week, and I consider the "political toxicity" of my involvement there to be low. More specifically: I've held my present degree of involvement there up to the mirror of God's laws and scriptures, and judged that the board is still a spiritually profitable use of my time.

Admitting that you have a problem is the first step. Until then no one can help you.

[Virgil Showlion]

Admitting that you have a problem is the first step. Until then no one can help you.

Would you say I'm a highly political individual?

I would appreciate a candid answer. And if your answer is "yes", perhaps some examples of my getting wrapped up in politics.

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

Nov 15, 2012 9:46:25 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Admitting that you have a problem is the first step. Until then no one can help you.

Would you say I'm a highly political individual?

I would appreciate a candid answer. And if your answer is "yes", perhaps some examples of my getting wrapped up in politics.

...I'd be curious, too... I certainly wouldn't have considered Virgil to have "a problem" in any way... and if the claim is creative license, then I'll need Leonard to hold up a sign for me...

[Deleted]

Nov 15, 2012 9:46:25 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Admitting that you have a problem is the first step. Until then no one can help you.

Would you say I'm a highly political individual?

I would appreciate a candid answer. And if your answer is "yes", perhaps some examples of my getting wrapped up in politics.

IMHO you seem to be very invested in politics. Now of course I know you from nothing but what you post on these forums. So you may just be trolling when you post regarding politics, I don't really know. But even if that is the case it would seem that that would be an issue to. I don't know.

[Virgil Showlion]

Nov 15, 2012 9:57:54 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Nov 15, 2012 9:46:25 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Would you say I'm a highly political individual?

I would appreciate a candid answer. And if your answer is "yes", perhaps some examples of my getting wrapped up in politics.

IMHO you seem to be very invested in politics. Now of course I know you from nothing but what you post on these forums. So you may just be trolling when you post regarding politics, I don't really know. But even if that is the case it would seem that that would be an issue to. I don't know.

Again, I would need specific examples.

I've given up debating abortion and homosexuality since I did find my debates on those topics were no longer spiritually profitable.

And I am, by nature, a rigorous debater.

I do try to remain teachable and approachable. I don't hold grudges.

ETA: I admit that some of my more satirical contributions haven't been particularly Christian. On that front, I am trying to check my enthusiasm.

The trouble with satire is that it can be delivered with the lightest of hearts and consumed by the heaviest of ears. Many people infer offense where none is intended.

[Deleted]

Nov 15, 2012 10:26:08 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Nov 15, 2012 9:57:54 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

IMHO you seem to be very invested in politics. Now of course I know you from nothing but what you post on these forums. So you may just be trolling when you post regarding politics, I don't really know. But even if that is the case it would seem that that would be an issue to. I don't know.

Again, I would need specific examples.

I've given up debating abortion and homosexuality since I did find my debates on those topics were no longer spiritually profitable.

And I am, by nature, a rigorous debater.

I do try to remain teachable and approachable. I don't hold grudges.

I've dealt with addicts before. You can't do anything until they hit rock bottom and realize for themselves that they want to change.

[Virgil Showlion]

I think you're addicted to diagnosing others with addictions.