The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Oct 26, 2012 12:05:27 GMT -5
If you have not seen the documentary "Droupout Nation" I highly recommend you watch it. It was about a High School that focused exclusively on high risk students. Enormous resources went into providing as much assistance as possible to get the kids to graduate (the school was partialy supported by private donations). Time after time you saw how these kids' home situation practically guaranteed they would either fail or dropout. Obviously in none of those cases did the parent say, my kid staying with me is not in their best interest.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Oct 26, 2012 12:05:37 GMT -5
And yesterday T was asking for reviews on the new iPad because she feels that she "deserves" one for all the bullshit she has to deal with in life.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 26, 2012 12:08:27 GMT -5
And that is why you need the scourge of YM, social workers, to make those evaluations on a case-by-case basis. Not blanket statements about whether people on welfare care about their children.
(Contrary to what Zib says, social workers are not motivated to "keep people on the dole." I think Constanz and others can attest to that).
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Oct 26, 2012 12:10:06 GMT -5
Tell me where I said people on welfare don't care about their children.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 26, 2012 12:13:01 GMT -5
Captain, tell me where I said you did.
You're the one who responded to my post (which I made in response to Zib and others saying that those on the dole don't love their kids.)
You might not agree with that yourself, but you're arguing on the side of people who do.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2012 12:13:32 GMT -5
And yesterday T was asking for reviews on the new iPad because she feels that she "deserves" one for all the bullshit she has to deal with in life.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 26, 2012 12:15:28 GMT -5
You're fighting a losing battle there. If taxpayers weren't forced to fund other people's poor choices, it begs the question of would they make these poor choices? Someone who collects welfare always feels entitled to it because, somehow, it isn't their fault they made bad choices.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 26, 2012 12:18:18 GMT -5
It used to be if you couldn't support your kids and had no family to help, you gave your kids up temporarily until you could support them. THAT is doing the right thing for your kids and it teaches them a very valuable lesson. Love doesn't buy food and shelter.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Oct 26, 2012 12:19:47 GMT -5
Captain, tell me where I said you did. You're the one who responded to my post (which I made in response to Zib and others saying that those on the dole don't love their kids.) You might not agree with that yourself, but you're arguing on the side of people who do. In your post 363 above you quoted me and then stated "And that is why you need the scourge of YM, social workers, to make those evaluations on a case-by-case basis. Not blanket statements about whether people on welfare care about their children." You stated that I made blanket statements about whether people on welfare care about their children.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 26, 2012 12:20:06 GMT -5
As Susan said, a very, very small percentage of the taxpaying population funds their own choices (along with ours). The rest of us consume more publicly-funded resources than we fund ourselves.
Glass houses...
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 26, 2012 12:23:32 GMT -5
Captain, tell me where I said you did. You're the one who responded to my post (which I made in response to Zib and others saying that those on the dole don't love their kids.) You might not agree with that yourself, but you're arguing on the side of people who do. In your post 363 above you quoted me and then stated "And that is why you need the scourge of YM, social workers, to make those evaluations on a case-by-case basis. Not blanket statements about whether people on welfare care about their children." You stated that I made blanket statements about whether people on welfare care about their children. General "you", sorry if that was unclear. And no, no blanket statements from you, just two stories about mothers killing their kids. Since you started your kid-killing post with my name, can I ask to which argument of mine you were responding?
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Oct 26, 2012 12:23:57 GMT -5
And, let's go ahead and stir the pot some more. Can any help me understand why the first thing that defines an "at risk" student is their socioeconomic status? "Poverty. Poor children are more likely to perform poorly in school and to drop out than children from higher income households. More than 12 million children under the age of 18--or one in five children--were living in poverty in 1987 (U.S. Bureau of the Census, 1988). Black and Hispanic children are three to four times more likely to live in poverty than non-Hispanic white children." www.ericdigests.org/pre-9214/risk.htmI REFUSE to believe that people from poor households are simply dumber than people who are not poor. So why is that a major indicator of your ability to graduate? (edited to add quotation marks)
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 26, 2012 12:24:36 GMT -5
True enough.. But I have paid enough taxes over the years to more than fund two private school educations for my spawn. Now my spawn are paying taxes as well. Doesn't matter, unfortunately, welfare, like illegals, will never go away. Too many votes count on it.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Oct 26, 2012 12:28:41 GMT -5
In your post 363 above you quoted me and then stated "And that is why you need the scourge of YM, social workers, to make those evaluations on a case-by-case basis. Not blanket statements about whether people on welfare care about their children." You stated that I made blanket statements about whether people on welfare care about their children. General "you", sorry if that was unclear. And no, no blanket statements from you, just two stories about mothers killing their kids. Since you started your kid-killing post with my name, can I ask to which argument of mine you were responding? Ok, fair enough. I was responding to post 329 where you responded to ZIB and asked where was the manual on what was best for the child and stated even good parents make mistakes (AGREED!). My point (which I stated earlier was not well made) was that there are some parents who are not good parents and do not in any way put their kids best interest first most of the time.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 26, 2012 12:30:50 GMT -5
I REFUSE to believe that people from poor households are simply dumber than people who are not poor. So why is that a major indicator of your ability to graduate? Because they don't receive the same education/pushing/opportunities as others. And by that I don't mean their math class isn't as good. I mean their parents & environment showed them that they can't go to college, can't be more than a min wage worker, that luck makes people rich. Someone needs to be a role model & show these kids that anyone willing to work can be a doctor (or whatever) and show them the path to success. Most of these kids don't get that. They don't have parents that push them to succeed in school, that push them to go to college, or that provide help for them to succeed. The reason rich schools tend to do better than poor school has more to do with the parent's involvement in school than anything else. And economic status is a pretty good indicator on parental involvement.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Oct 26, 2012 12:38:34 GMT -5
As Susan said, a very, very small percentage of the taxpaying population funds their own choices (along with ours). The rest of us consume more publicly-funded resources than we fund ourselves. Glass houses... So do you believe this give people carte blanch to consume even more public resources by making irresposible choices (not just having kids)? BTW - I consider public education one of those things that will make us stonger as a society and have no problem paying my taxes. What does suck is the less than stellar return on the investment in this area.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Oct 26, 2012 12:39:47 GMT -5
And, let's go ahead and stir the pot some more. Can any help me understand why the first thing that defines an "at risk" student is their socioeconomic status? "Poverty. Poor children are more likely to perform poorly in school and to drop out than children from higher income households. More than 12 million children under the age of 18--or one in five children--were living in poverty in 1987 (U.S. Bureau of the Census, 1988). Black and Hispanic children are three to four times more likely to live in poverty than non-Hispanic white children." www.ericdigests.org/pre-9214/risk.htmI REFUSE to believe that people from poor households are simply dumber than people who are not poor. So why is that a major indicator of your ability to graduate? (edited to add quotation marks) Of course they are not dumber. In fact, one of the smartest people I have ever met grew up in the ghetto. Against all odds he was able to make it out - mainly because he had a mother that cared and encouraged him. She worked minimum wage and I am sure she probably received some sort of public assistance. I honestly can't imagine what his life was like. He told me from the time he was 9 yrs he old he was approached on a daily basis by drug dealers who either wanted him hooked or running drugs for him. He said he literally ran home from school each day and locked himself in the house to avoid them. Gangs ran the streets and gun shots were heard a lot. His mother was determined that he would get out the ghetto and encouraged him to make something of himself. He said without mom he probably would have ended up dead or in jail. Everything was about survival in that neighborhood. It is a life I can't really imagine because I grew up middle class. I definitely don't think poor people are dumber than anyone else but I do think sometimes their priorities are different and they live in a different world.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 26, 2012 12:40:19 GMT -5
I think we can all agree on that. Responding to Angel's post, obviously a huge component of school success is parental involvement - but I wonder how much is physical/environmental. Is lead paint still an issue, or has that mostly been eradicated? And I wonder how childhood nutrition comes into play... I don't think poor people are "dumber," but they are exposed to more environmental hazards. Combine that with an unsupportive family and you've got a recipe for failure.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2012 12:40:55 GMT -5
As Susan said, a very, very small percentage of the taxpaying population funds their own choices (along with ours). The rest of us consume more publicly-funded resources than we fund ourselves. Glass houses... mid, If your statement is true, how the government comes up with money without the taxpayer. They are either borrowing from China, either printing.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 26, 2012 12:42:33 GMT -5
So how do you explain poor immigrants like the Vietnamese for example who came to this country, lived in multi family units, started some business, dry cleaning, tailoring, nails, whatever, learned our language and their kids bust ass in school and do well? Shouldn't they be generational welfare having baby after baby and playing the "poor me" card? Their kids behaved and learned and now are college grads with good careers.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2012 12:42:49 GMT -5
mid, I don't think poor people are "dumber," but they are exposed to more environmental hazards. Combine that with an unsupportive family and you've got a recipe for failure. I am hundred percent agree with your statement.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 26, 2012 12:43:10 GMT -5
Well they are running a pretty big deficit, and printing more money, but the 1%-ers are also 'carrying' most of us.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Oct 26, 2012 12:45:00 GMT -5
I REFUSE to believe that people from poor households are simply dumber than people who are not poor. So why is that a major indicator of your ability to graduate? Because they don't receive the same education/pushing/opportunities as others. And by that I don't mean their math class isn't as good. I mean their parents & environment showed them that they can't go to college, can't be more than a min wage worker, that luck makes people rich. Someone needs to be a role model & show these kids that anyone willing to work can be a doctor (or whatever) and show them the path to success. Most of these kids don't get that. They don't have parents that push them to succeed in school, that push them to go to college, or that provide help for them to succeed. The reason rich schools tend to do better than poor school has more to do with the parent's involvement in school than anything else. And economic status is a pretty good indicator on parental involvement. I could be snarky and ask "Does this mean poor parents are not acting in their childrens best interest? Or is getting a good education not in someones best interest." But that's really not my intent. I am curious, do you really think poor parents are not involved with their kids as much as well to do parents, or is it the just don't put much value on education?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2012 12:53:06 GMT -5
Well they are running a pretty big deficit, and printing more money, but the 1%-ers are also 'carrying' most of us. mid, I know the answer before I ask. That has to stop. We can not afford it anymore.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 26, 2012 12:55:16 GMT -5
Because they don't receive the same education/pushing/opportunities as others. And by that I don't mean their math class isn't as good. I mean their parents & environment showed them that they can't go to college, can't be more than a min wage worker, that luck makes people rich. Someone needs to be a role model & show these kids that anyone willing to work can be a doctor (or whatever) and show them the path to success. Most of these kids don't get that. They don't have parents that push them to succeed in school, that push them to go to college, or that provide help for them to succeed. The reason rich schools tend to do better than poor school has more to do with the parent's involvement in school than anything else. And economic status is a pretty good indicator on parental involvement. I could be snarky and ask "Does this mean poor parents are not acting in their childrens best interest? Or is getting a good education not in someones best interest." But that's really not my intent. I am curious, do you really think poor parents are not involved with their kids as much as well to do parents, or is it the just don't put much value on education? I would guess much of it is because they don't put much value on education. They were probably raised with a similar attitude & the is what led them to being poor in the first place. Also, they probably don't see the opportunities out there to teach their children to look for them. Then you figure some probably work too much & don't have enough time to be an involved parent. Then you figure some are just crappy parents, druggies or whatever & don't give a crap. When your parents raise you to think only rich kids can go to college & become an accountant (or whatever), how far do you really think you will get in life? If you are lucky you might find a mentor or someone that pushes you, but most probably just never do.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Oct 26, 2012 12:57:15 GMT -5
I think we can all agree on that. Responding to Angel's post, obviously a huge component of school success is parental involvement - but I wonder how much is physical/environmental. Is lead paint still an issue, or has that mostly been eradicated? And I wonder how childhood nutrition comes into play... I don't think poor people are "dumber," but they are exposed to more environmental hazards. Combine that with an unsupportive family and you've got a recipe for failure. Agreed, so if a child has an unsupportive family would we be doing them a favor by removing them from the environment? Note - that is not what I'm advocating but how is anything going to change for the kid? I used to volunteer for Junior Acheivement and was appalled at the level of apathy I saw in some parent who had really great kids. Most of those kids don't have a chance.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Oct 26, 2012 12:57:20 GMT -5
What Angel said.
There was a study just released ranking the HS's in the area using such criteria as test scores, college attendance, and percent who earned a college degree.
Surprise, the two towns that both have two colleges were ranked one and two. Imagine that, children of college professors do well in school.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 26, 2012 12:57:42 GMT -5
Not going there!
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Oct 26, 2012 13:00:15 GMT -5
I could be snarky and ask "Does this mean poor parents are not acting in their childrens best interest? Or is getting a good education not in someones best interest." But that's really not my intent. I am curious, do you really think poor parents are not involved with their kids as much as well to do parents, or is it the just don't put much value on education? I would guess much of it is because they don't put much value on education. They were probably raised with a similar attitude & the is what led them to being poor in the first place. Also, they probably don't see the opportunities out there to teach their children to look for them. Then you figure some probably work too much & don't have enough time to be an involved parent. Then you figure some are just crappy parents, druggies or whatever & don't give a crap. When your parents raise you to think only rich kids can go to college & become an accountant (or whatever), how far do you really think you will get in life? If you are lucky you might find a mentor or someone that pushes you, but most probably just never do. See I don't buy into that. My dad never made it past fifth grade (his dad was a farmer and pulled him out of school to work the farm), had to work his ass off to support his family and told me an education was the key to success without having to break your back. I think too many people count on the safety net being there and figure an education is not essential (by education I don't mean only college BTW).
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 26, 2012 13:03:04 GMT -5
Responding to Angel's post, obviously a huge component of school success is parental involvement - but I wonder how much is physical/environmental. Is lead paint still an issue, or has that mostly been eradicated? And I wonder how childhood nutrition comes into play... You could very well be right. I'm sure there are other factors as well. I was listening to a show that was talking about a study in pre-schools & their importance. Years ago they did a study on some very, very poor kids (I'm thinking it was in inner-city Chicago, but could be wrong). A random selection of toddlers were provided free pre-school for a few hours, a few days/week for I think 2 years. They followed these kids & then those that weren't offered the pre-school for the next few decades. I don't recall the exact results, but basically it showed that these kids were able to learn soft-skills that made a difference in the rest of their lives. These kids were less likely to be in trouble as a teen, like half as likely to end up in jail as an adult, they had fewer stints of unemployment & better jobs. Apparently there are skills that need to be learned at certain ages or you can actually skip learning the skill altogether. The study concluded these few hours of pre-school gave these kids an opportunity to learn things like sharing, appropriate behavior around others, conflict resolutions skills, etc. Skills that you would learn in most households, but in true poverty - in the slums you won't necessarily learn at home. And that enabled these kids to do better through the rest of their lives. I don't know, but I found it interesting. I do think stuff like this is a good example why headstart & WIC a& medicaid are important programs. Early in life not getting the right education, nutrition, or healthcare can make a significant impact on the rest of your life.
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