What if no one needed saving and we all knew it?

[Opti]

By now at least some of you might have read about the representative on the Science Committee who believes science is really just a big plot to keep everyone from knowing they need a Savior. Given two books I just read I'm more convinced then ever that perhaps absolutely no one needs saving at all. We are all connected to the Divine and we just tend to forget our magnificence while we are here.

He says:
Congressman Paul Broun (R-Ga.) said last week that evolution and the big bang theory are "lies straight from the pit of Hell."

"God's word is true. I've come to understand that. All that stuff I was taught about evolution and embryology and the big bang theory, all that is lies straight from the pit of Hell," said Broun, who is an MD. "It's lies to try to keep me and all the folks who were taught that from understanding that they need a savior."

Yet in reading a book by George Anderson(yes a medium who speaks to souls so some of you will assume he must be wrong by definition) and a woman A. Moorjani who had a near death experience and came back to miraculously heal from stage 4 cancer
that had caused her death. Both, including other NDE experiencers report that we are welcomed into pure love. Nothing about judgment, nothing about what we need to believe to get there.

What if we don't need to be saved?
What if we all go to the other side no matter what?
How would this change the world and you if you believed it?

[mrsdutt]

I certainly would be a happy girl if no matter how I treated others I would be rewarded with all goodness and love - even though I was instructed by Christ to love others as myself.

People have free will, Punkin. They can believe what they choose to. These beliefs don't alter the truth. I don't confess to know all of what the truth consists of. I'm a scientist, so I respect science truths. I don't, however, put much credence in scientific theory. Theory is an assumption, and has - to this date - not been proven. People need to be a bit more discerning about what is pronounced as theory.

My thought about the woman is she had a healed spirit and was readily accepted into God's kingdom. Her remarks about the love she felt, to me, are proof of God's love for His children.

I have read of people who have died and went to hell. Their description matches some of the master paintings. (Dante's Inferno)

I do find it rather odd that people will readily accept theory as fact, while they diminish what is presented in faith about God.

One more thing. What exactly do you mean when you refer to 'being saved'?

[mmhmm]

I certainly would be a happy girl if no matter how I treated others I would be rewarded with all goodness and love - even though I was instructed by Christ to love others as myself.

This would make you happy? Why? Would you change the way you treat others in such a way you'd enjoy life more? Really?

[mrsdutt]

Oct 6, 2012 22:36:16 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I certainly would be a happy girl if no matter how I treated others I would be rewarded with all goodness and love - even though I was instructed by Christ to love others as myself.

This would make you happy? Why? Would you change the way you treat others in such a way you'd enjoy life more? Really?

You know the answer to this. Please try not to play on semantics. It can ruin the line of communication.

In the event you do not, the answer is, I am content in with my choices. I like people.

[mrsdutt]

Oct 6, 2012 22:41:52 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

I have read of people who have died and went to hell.

I believe we experience, at the time of death, what we believe we will experience. That's why some see loved ones and some see hell.

I'd be interested in knowing what's behind this belief. If you'd want to share.

[mrsdutt]

Oct 6, 2012 22:48:21 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

Oct 6, 2012 22:44:35 GMT -5 mrsdutt said:

I'd be interested in knowing what's behind this belief. If you'd want to share.

Not sure what you mean about what's behind it.

Most people come to a conclusion with research. I'd be interested in any articles on this. I think I'm tired and not expressing myself correctly.

[mrsdutt]

LONE: Here is one example for you: My DH had an experience when he was 36. I won't go into details about his illness, but he was in ICU and was revived. He told me he indeed got to the end of the light and it was warm and inviting and the 'man' there gave him a choice to enter heaven or go back. He chose to go back, even though he wanted to go into heaven. He said he had a family that needed him. I consider this choice the most love filled choice ever. He chose us over his needs. Now that's a man! He didn't realize how much more I respected and loved him after he told me that. He didn't even know what a great sacrifice he made. It was just what he did and who he was.

As an aside: For all of you who think saying the 'f' word is a sin, he said it often and still was free to go to a better life! He wasn't perfect by 'earthly' standards. This made me realize that our rules and God's are definitely different.

[Reckless Roselia]

If there is no afterlife then isn't life useless and meaningless? What do you think?

[mrsdutt]

Perhaps meaningless, but I would question useless. Just mo.

[kittensaver]

Well FWIW, the belief that we carry into the next life what we knew/wanted/believed/hoped/desired in this one ["I believe we experience, at the time of death, what we believe we will experience. That's why some see loved ones and some see hell"] comes from eastern beliefs (Buddhist and Shinto).

[Opti]

Oct 6, 2012 21:36:09 GMT -5 mrsdutt said:

I certainly would be a happy girl if no matter how I treated others I would be rewarded with all goodness and love - even though I was instructed by Christ to love others as myself.

People have free will, Punkin. They can believe what they choose to. These beliefs don't alter the truth. I don't confess to know all of what the truth consists of. I'm a scientist, so I respect science truths. I don't, however, put much credence in scientific theory. Theory is an assumption, and has - to this date - not been proven. People need to be a bit more discerning about what is pronounced as theory.

My thought about the woman is she had a healed spirit and was readily accepted into God's kingdom. Her remarks about the love she felt, to me, are proof of God's love for His children.

I have read of people who have died and went to hell. Their description matches some of the master paintings. (Dante's Inferno)

I do find it rather odd that people will readily accept theory as fact, while they diminish what is presented in faith about God.

One more thing. What exactly do you mean when you refer to 'being saved'?

I was using being saved like the representative from Georgia implied it. One must believe in Jesus Christ in order to go to heaven.


I read another book which I almost hesitate mentioning since it is by a medium I really knew nothing about before I read it. However, since I believe we do have multiple lives, what he wrote he said the souls shared with him made perfect sense. He says that the apparent NDEs that resulted in people remembering Hell or similar things didn't experience a true NDE. If you will, they didn't actually die just got close.

The woman who wrote the book which by the way is titled "Dying to Be Me" isn't Christian. In fact after her experience she really isn't Hindu which I believe is how she was raised. So that's what originally prompted my question. If you don't believe in Jesus Christ how is it possible that there is instant acceptance and love?

She said while she was passing she became more and more. Not just pure love and surrounded by pure love but aware of things she never had been. I think NDEs and mediums who really do talk to souls might tell us more of what is really on the other side than any religious belief or religious text.

[Virgil Showlion]

You do realize that near-death also means near-brain-death? :-\

I believe in the existence of spirit, and I believe certain people can perceive spiritual phenomena. The Bible admonishes man not to consult mystics and mediums—which to me sounds like sound advice.

Stroke victims who've had their left hemisphere severely impaired sometimes describe experiencing extreme emotions during the stroke. Although individuals experiencing NDEs may indeed be "slipping into the afterlife" and committing their perceptions to physical memory, they might also be experiencing the same effects of partial brain death as stroke victims. In short, we can have no confidence whatsoever in the veracity of people's perceptions when they're in such a state.

Personally, I wouldn't want to base my conception of the afterlife on their testimony.

[mmhmm]

Oct 7, 2012 8:08:02 GMT -5 Reckless Roselia said:

If there is no afterlife then isn't life useless and meaningless? What do you think?

I don't think it's either. Whether my essence goes on after death is not relevant to what I do now. I've been lucky enough to work in a profession in which caring for people is the main focus. Because of that, perhaps, I've always found use and meaning in what I've done. If someone makes widgets, someone else uses those widgets. If someone performs a service, others benefit from that service. There's value in that, as I see it, and that value is of use and is meaningful.

[weltschmerz]

Oct 7, 2012 8:08:02 GMT -5 Reckless Roselia said:

If there is no afterlife then isn't life useless and meaningless? What do you think?

Striving to make the world a better place isn't useless. Trying to make life better for everyone, including the generations yet to come isn't meaningless.

[weltschmerz]

The woman who wrote the book which by the way is titled "Dying to Be Me" isn't Christian. In fact after her experience she really isn't Hindu which I believe is how she was raised. So that's what originally prompted my question. If you don't believe in Jesus Christ how is it possible that there is instant acceptance and love?
----------------
Are you saying Jesus Christ is the only life form capable of acceptance and love? For all we know, it could be a gelatinous, 18 foot purple ammonia-based alien being that will be there to greet us, full of acceptance and love. We know squat.

[Opti]

Oct 7, 2012 11:16:19 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

The woman who wrote the book which by the way is titled "Dying to Be Me" isn't Christian. In fact after her experience she really isn't Hindu which I believe is how she was raised. So that's what originally prompted my question. If you don't believe in Jesus Christ how is it possible that there is instant acceptance and love?
----------------
Are you saying Jesus Christ is the only life form capable of acceptance and love? For all we know, it could be a gelatinous, 18 foot purple ammonia-based alien being that will be there to greet us, full of acceptance and love. We know squat.

Perhaps I phrased my OP worse than I thought. I realized later that night I shouldn't have even phrased my questions the way I did.

What I believe is God is all there is no separation between us. I use the word God but one could use the word Divine or even Oneness, Love, whatever. I came up with my OP basically because I wondered how it would upend the life of someone who believed without Jesus Christ there would be no saving, no possible nice afterlife. What if they found out it wasn't true. That it didn't matter whether you believed in Jesus Christ, Krishna, Purple ammonia-based beings or nothing. What if you found out belief had absolutely nothing to do with going to a happy love-filled afterlife?

My OP questions are flawed for the simple reason no belief ever stands in a vacuum.

[Opti]

Oct 7, 2012 10:52:44 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

You do realize that near-death also means near-brain-death? :-\

I believe in the existence of spirit, and I believe certain people can perceive spiritual phenomena. The Bible admonishes man not to consult mystics and mediums—which to me sounds like sound advice.

Stroke victims who've had their left hemisphere severely impaired sometimes describe experiencing extreme emotions during the stroke. Although individuals experiencing NDEs may indeed be "slipping into the afterlife" and committing their perceptions to physical memory, they might also be experiencing the same effects of partial brain death as stroke victims. In short, we can have no confidence whatsoever in the veracity of people's perceptions when they're in such a state.

Personally, I wouldn't want to base my conception of the afterlife on their testimony.

Virgil, I am aware of that. That's in some sense why this particular woman's experience is notable. She documented how her awareness expanded and was correct about conversations and events she could not have experienced from just a physical body. She was aware of and recounted conversations that took place down the hall a good thirty to forty feet from her room. She perceived her brother on the plane flying to see her.

My views are such that something like this just fleshes out my belief system instead of being totally different which is what prompted me to ask the question.

[mmhmm]

*chuckle* Oh, I don't know, opti. I know any number of ambulatory vacuums. All of them have beliefs. ;D

[Opti]

Oct 7, 2012 11:47:32 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

*chuckle* Oh, I don't know, opti. I know any number of ambulatory vacuums. All of them have beliefs. ;D

Things go in and don't come out?

[mmhmm]

That's certainly the way it appears. They're exposed but nothing ever seems to develop from the exposure. They take in information yet only hot air comes out.

[mmhmm]

Useless? Fleas. Ticks. Mosquitoes.

[weltschmerz]

Is anyone here familiar with the "God Helmet"? Evidently, when certain areas of the brain are stimulated, the wearer experiences feelings of bliss and the proximity of a divine being.
It's entirely possible that these are the same areas that undergo changes when the brain is dying or deprived of oxygen.

[Virgil Showlion]

What if you found out belief had absolutely nothing to do with going to a happy love-filled afterlife?

It's a difficult hypothetical.

The supposition is that we "find out" Christian beliefs are wrong, but how does this "finding out" take place? Presumably the same authority, process, etc. would also be capable of giving us the "correct" purpose for our Earthly existence, in which case I would pursue that purpose.

Virgil, I am aware of that. That's in some sense why this particular woman's experience is notable. She documented how her awareness expanded and was correct about conversations and events she could not have experienced from just a physical body. She was aware of and recounted conversations that took place down the hall a good thirty to forty feet from her room. She perceived her brother on the plane flying to see her.

I'm not saying it's impossible. It might very well be possible, and she might well be telling the truth about what she perceived.

The problem with these kinds of ideas—and the reason I believe scripture forbids consulting mediums—is because there's a lack of accountability. We have no means of determining who's lying, who's genuinely perceiving spirit but misinterpreting what they perceive, or who's perceiving spirit and the spirit has malevolent intent. If any of these factors are present, we're exposing ourselves to tremendous risk. At the very least, we risk amalgamating lies and fantasy into our spiritual lives.

I consider the Bible to be God's Word, and I consider science to be the best tool for understanding our physical world. I keep an open mind, but I think it unwise to invest myself too deeply beyond these two authorities.

You have to admit that mankind, as a species, has a terrible track record of perceiving what he wants to perceive.

[mrsdutt]

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[mrsdutt]

Message deleted by lduttinger.